Stop Mesmer Never-Ending Nerfs!! -Rework!!--Save Mesmer!!

[Burnfall.9573]

Anet return this profession to who they are meant to be--ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy's resources.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer

'A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals'

Yes, confusion is mesmer signature and it need to return solely to them at full potential. During their rework process, i ask Anet to remove Rune of Perplexity including complete removal of all related confusions in the game to be solely used by Mesmer only.

I encourage Anet to stop nerfing Mesmer and to put a final end of doing so. All the nerfs does is adding more conflict with endless non- results. Having 6 years of this profession identity being tossed around like a rag doll, to be abused non-stop to be pleased by the masses, to be something that they are not and to be continually mocked because of it---a laughing stock, to be called out continuously in countless forums for their actions that is outside of who they are not called to be.......being harrassed unconditionally because of it

Enough is Enough!!

To fix a root cause of a never-ending problem is to pull the plug completely and to deal with its root

' I'm lost. Will i ever find myself '

End Mesmer suffering and loss of identity-Mesmer is innocent and lost--out of controlAnet the time has come for you to save Mesmer--redesign-rework this profession---the never ending nerfs has only done more harm than good

Anet, Take Action~!!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q7NUP4wtwf8/UXpm2V1xR6I/AAAAAAAAAOM/mZWvBFbV9cA/s400/ALone+Boy+in+Rain.jpg

[Solo.6873]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:Anet return this profession to who they are meant to be--ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy's resources.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer

'A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals'

See that's the problem...

Mirage was probably the closest they got to actual misdirection and "Master of illusion"

People didn't like it when mesmer utilized stealth- Nerf threads appearedPeople didn't like clone deaths- Clones death trait nerfedPeople didn't like the ability for chrono to make you waste resources- Chrono was nerfed.People didn't like mesmer having control- Control was nerfed.

People don't like mesmer. They could have a complete rework or another elite spec and take clones completely away, and this class would still be on the spectrum for people to hate it.Because it's never them that messes up, it's the mesmer.And ANET seems to think anyone playing a mesmer doesn't know what they are talking about. So lets not listen to the thousands of suggestions about how to make the class fun yet balanced NOOOoooOOInstead they look at the thread that starts off with " MesMeR HaS PeRmA sTeALtH and InVuLn! Plz nerf dis how..."It's why issues that are ACTUALLY issues haven't been addressed yet.

/rant

Anyway. Nothing they do at this point could make the class fun and balanced.It will either be dead completely because they will nerf everything instead of just the one build that needs to be addressed, or it will have one build that over performs because they refuse to address it.

[therealzuluDanny.9023]

nerf condi mes, it takes 0 skill to play.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

I remember a few weeks ago you freaking out at me, attacking me, calling me deceitful when I said I though boonbeast was the best build in the game with condi mirage being number 2. I wonder what changed.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

I remember a few weeks ago you freaking out at me, attacking me, calling me stupid and deceitful when I said I though boonbeast was the best build in the game with condi mirage being number 2. I wonder what changed.

Boonbeast beat him up on his zerker soulbeast :o

[Khalisto.5780]

yeah, stop nerfing the class that wins 80% of his v1s just by using its defensive skills

[Cyninja.2954]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

I remember a few weeks ago you freaking out at me, attacking me, calling me deceitful when I said I though boonbeast was the best build in the game with condi mirage being number 2. I wonder what changed.

Right? It's amazing how long it took people to realize that their most hated class (mirage) wasn't the apex predator any longer.

Fast forward to today, about 4 weeks later, and the bandwagon has caught up with boonbeast and holo.

I attribute this to mostly: mirage is just less fun to lose against due to their reposition, immune skills and general confusion.

[Curunen.8729]

@Solori.6025 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:Anet return this profession to who they are meant to be--ability to confuse, distract, and drain the enemy's resources.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer

'A master of illusion, misdirection, and control, the Mesmer subverts the damage-dealing capabilities of others, manipulating their perceptions to achieve personal goals'

See that's the problem...

Mirage was probably the closest they got to actual misdirection and "Master of illusion"

People didn't like it when mesmer utilized stealth- Nerf threads appearedPeople didn't like clone deaths- Clones death trait nerfedPeople didn't like the ability for chrono to make you waste resources- Chrono was nerfed.People didn't like mesmer having control- Control was nerfed.

People don't like mesmer. They could have a complete rework or another elite spec and take clones completely away, and this class would still be on the spectrum for people to hate it.Because it's never them that messes up, it's the mesmer.And ANET seems to think anyone playing a mesmer doesn't know what they are talking about. So lets not listen to the thousands of suggestions about how to make the class fun yet balanced NOOOoooOOInstead they look at the thread that starts off with " MesMeR HaS PeRmA sTeALtH and InVuLn! Plz nerf dis how..."It's why issues that are ACTUALLY issues haven't been addressed yet.

/rant

Anyway. Nothing they do at this point could make the class fun and balanced.It will either be dead completely because they will nerf everything instead of just the one build that needs to be addressed, or it will have one build that over performs because they refuse to address it.

Well said, any time gw2 mesmer gets new misdirection mechanics it's usually the source of new whining. It's just how it is - the class that's intended to misdirect and troll is continually hated for being able to do so, because players don't like control being taken away.

Mirage is probably the best example being a dual of the two most hated classes, mesmer+thief, for minimal visual tell on dodge and repositioning/detarget - source of so much ire when to be frank that's kind of the best execution of gw2 mesmer misdirection and how I've wanted to play all along, have some potential to confuse and misdirect with clones.Even then it's barely functional due to paper clones and no issue with reselecting correct player (providing the player actually has good targeting keybinds). I find it funny on pof launch so many thought detargeting was useless outside of one scenario where it actually buys you a couple of seconds (eg staff with IA and stand still while praying for rng luck), yet now it's one of the main things being complained about for some reason...

Like totally scratch head. I mean I was addicted to axe 3 and IA pretty much since pof launched because it's way more fun to play mind games with this than with stealth (after they lowered the cooldown of IA from beta 30s to release 20s), always been glued to my skill bar but even then in wvw it's only really had lasting impact on bad groups (ie where you can fool say 8 bad players and kite) but against say 2 excellent players it doesn't buy you any time.

Would sooner have how mirage functions now, than incentivise old PU passive gameplay (wvw of course, not pvp) which was truly stupid.

[st elmos fire.2987]

Mesmer like many other classes need nerfs. At least Nerf chaos armor and protection in chaos trait line. Mesmer should have super low amount of protection or not at all. In mirage make it so that you cant dodge while stunned. EM can allow dodging while stunned but not brake stun. There is more but these feel like the most important ones to me.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

I remember a few weeks ago you freaking out at me, attacking me, calling me deceitful when I said I though boonbeast was the best build in the game with condi mirage being number 2. I wonder what changed.

Nothing I have said has changed. I was saying the same exact thing in the other thread, which was the same exact thing I've been saying in posts for about 4 months now. Not sure why you keep thinking I am defending Boonbeasts, despite the very literal statements I make in threads that would indicate otherwise.

I am however more persistent vs. Mesmer threads than anything else, because history has shown that Ranger and Engi WILL get nerfed as usual, and usually those nerfs nail them down into a coffin for awhile. Mesmer on the other hand, Arenanet has this tendency to just let it go and not care at all about its over performance until 90% or more of the community complains for a year or so, and then they push & shove some traits around, and reallocate how it deals damage, without actually removing any of the damage or toning down any abilities, just shove things around so it works a bit differently. I mean it's a stapled and well identified meme at this point. Everything else always just gets nerfed. "Full Counter? add much longer CD, remove a lot of its damage" "Death's Judgement? Remove unblockable" "Firebrand Tomes? add much longer CD" "Druid CA? Nerf all the healing by 33% across the board and add much longer CD" "Scourge Boon Conversion? Let's remove half of it, like actually half of it is gone" "Eles? let's completely ignore that it has been underpowered ever since PoF released" "Mirage? let's give it a rework. We're gonna make this 3 stacks for 6s turn into 2 stacks for 9s, then we're gonna reallocate the sources of it's Saiyan like defenses so that it's all still there, but works differently now, then we're gonna slightly nerf some trait that doesn't even have anything to do with the build in question"

^ I mean it's disgusting really. And there is no need to give me a list of nerfs that have happened to Mirage since PoF release, because the truth is that the minor nerfing it has received is nothing compared to the changes that have happened to other classes, and that is why Mirage is still too strong. Even the mythical nerf to EM actually helped Mirage, because until that happened and forced people to use a different build structure, most players did not yet realize that Infinite Horizon was better all along.

About this Boonbeast stuff. The ONLY reason why Mirages feel that Boonbeast is the strongest, is because of these three things:

• Dolyak Stance (6s): -33% Incoming Condition Damage, -33% Incoming Damage
• Second Skin - Conditions inflict less damage to you while you have protection, -33%
• Resistance from plasma paired with resistance from OwlBoonbeasts are just the one class that has an enormous resistance vs. conditions. The hilarious thing is, despite this enormous resistance vs. conditions, a Condi Mirage STILL is able to 1v1 this and have a chance of killing it on fairly even ground. I'd say it's 60% in Boonbeast's favor, 40% in MIrage's favor during this match up. The Mirage is certainly not getting countered in the way that he would counter a Herald 90/10, or how a Thief gets countered 90/10 by a DH. Boonbeast vs. Mirage is like 60/40. Any Mirage defendant reading this, should really stop and think about that for second, I mean really give it some thought. Take a look at the ridiculous level of raw passive condition resistance that the Boonbeast has and gain the self awareness that: "Wow, I must be dealing a lot of condition damage to be able to kill that with condition damage." The Mirage should ask himself: "Is it too much condition damage? Is it healthy for the game that my condition build can still tear through other builds that are completely tweaked forwards defending vs. conditions?" Other classes that are not Mirage, see Mirage and Boonbeasts and Holos, as generally the same threat level. I think that the idea of Boonbeast being OP over Mirage or Holo is just a lot of hype from Mirage mains who feel that condi resistance.

[kodesh.2851]

I still play core mes in pvp and find it viable, it's just not stupid easy like mirage. It dunks on boonbeast, scourge, FB, etc. There's so much synergy in the core trees it's ridiculous. The only thing I'd realllllly want for mesmer is my clone death traits back and Deceptive Evasion made not a GM trait :)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I actually support burnfall on this one.ANet please redesign mesmer into gw1 type of mesmer.Let the "omg evade evade invuln teleport..." qq era end and let the "omg I can't get skills to fire off and when I can I get rupted and 1/4 of my hp is lost, why is my entire skill bar on long cds always when fighting a mesmer and why I'm always with 0 endurance even tho I don't dodge, please nerf" era begin.

[BadMed.3846]

Stop defending a broken and utterly disappointing class. The mechanics are completely over the top and are nothing short of harrassing enemies. Such ruthless mechanics only deserve huge nerfs to make this class even acceptable on a somewhat even playing field. This class is so broken that I'm now fine with every other class and its mechanics. Just NERF the MIRAGE please!

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

Yes, dont BALANCE Mirage, NERF it. Dont balance Holo, NERF IT!. Boonbeast...dont think about balancing it...NERF EET!!! Its easier to nerf than to balance...meaning its the lazy way out and the lazy persons suggestion.

[Burnfall.9573]

@BadMed.3846 said:Stop defending a broken and utterly disappointing class. The mechanics are completely over the top and are nothing short of harrassing enemies. Such ruthless mechanics only deserve huge nerfs to make this class even acceptable on a somewhat even playing field. This class is so broken that I'm now fine with every other class and its mechanics. Just NERF the MIRAGE please!

It's easy to ask for more Mesmer nerfs but it take courage to face it all....to stand with Mesmer for a complete rework

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Problems are:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:Stop defending a broken and utterly disappointing class. The mechanics are completely over the top and are nothing short of harrassing enemies. Such ruthless mechanics only deserve huge nerfs to make this class even acceptable on a somewhat even playing field. This class is so broken that I'm now fine with every other class and its mechanics. Just NERF the MIRAGE please!

It's easy to ask for more Mesmer nerfs but it take courage to face it all....to stand with Mesmer for a complete rework

That isn't going to happen unfortunately. People have been asking for this stuff for years on Mesmer or even different classes. The closest thing we had to this was when they switched traits to specializations, and when it was CONVENIENT to do reworks during that phase, it did change the way most of the classes played entirely. But Mirage's problems are even deeper than what a traits into specializations would allow for fixing. Mirage needs actual deep mechanical overhauls, and honestly I'm done waiting for that. I'm tired of every pleb Mirage being dangerous in matches. I just want to see Mirage get nerfed.

And

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:Yes, dont BALANCE Mirage, NERF it. Dont balance Holo, NERF IT!. Boonbeast...dont think about balancing it...NERF EET!!! Its easier to nerf than to balance...meaning its the lazy way out and the lazy persons suggestion.

They've been trying to balance Mirage ever since PoF release and it isn't fixing anything. At this point people are tired of waiting, and Mirage is actually driving people away from competitive game modes. It just needs to be nerfed man, like real nerfing. It could stand to lose about 1/5th of its damage output, that or about 1/5th of it's Saiyan like defenses, or in all honesty, maybe both.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Don't make it dramatic. Mirage needs nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holos.

Big +1

[Zenix.6198]

Why would you want to redesign the class.Gee people are so theatrical.Remove the "being able to dodge while stunned" thing.Nerf some Ambush skills (Staff, Axe and Scepter in particular, especially for Illusions when using IH).And mirage will be far more manageable.

Its kinda funny how I never see people complaining about ambush skills. They legit are the lions-share of a Cmirages sustained dmg....and also add to the spammy gameplay.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:They've been trying to balance Mirage ever since PoF release and it isn't fixing anything. At this point people are tired of waiting, and Mirage is actually driving people away from competitive game modes. It just needs to be nerfed man, like real nerfing. It could stand to lose about 1/5th of its damage output, that or about 1/5th of it's Saiyan like defenses, or in all honesty, maybe both.

The reason is simple and has been said in some threads.Reason is the nerfs were based on forum qq instead of mesmer players suggestions, hence why the nerfs didn't hit the right places.

@"Zenix.6198" said:Why would you want to redesign the class.Gee people are so theatrical.Remove the "being able to dodge while stunned" thing.Nerf some Ambush skills (Staff, Axe and Scepter in particular, especially for Illusions when using IH).And mirage will be far more manageable.

Its kinda funny how I never see people complaining about ambush skills. They legit are the lions-share of a Cmirages sustained dmg....and also add to the spammy gameplay.

Funny enough, mesmer players have been the ones saying ambushes need a look at, some, in which I'm included have been arguing IH needs to be baseline in order for ambushes to get an easier balance, while it's not baseline ambushes are weak or strong as kitten.Of those you mentioned axe is really strong, scepter ambush is meh at best, staff is so so, with IH that is, without IH they're all on the "meh" side.

[Burnfall.9573]

@"Zenix.6198" said:Why would you want to redesign the class.Gee people are so theatrical.Remove the "being able to dodge while stunned" thing.Nerf some Ambush skills (Staff, Axe and Scepter in particular, especially for Illusions when using IH).And mirage will be far more manageable.

Its kinda funny how I never see people complaining about ambush skills. They legit are the lions-share of a Cmirages sustained dmg....and also add to the spammy gameplay.

Here are more interesting guide of mesmer including its roleshttps://guildwiki.gamepedia.com/Effective_mesmer_guide

'Guide to playing as a mesmer'-https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide_to_playing_as_a_mesmer

'Mesmers are often called the most difficult profession to play in Guild Wars, but if played well, can cause a lot of trouble for the enemy. They are best described as the debilitating or the saboteur profession that eschew outright attacks; they instead use misdirection against the foolish and rely on control-based abilities to sap foes of their strength. They can be used to their highest potential when played in a group'

'Knowing your enemy as well as yourself is the path to victory for Mesmers, whose primary function is to control the enemy's agenda. Mesmers enjoy a vast array of tools to disrupt or turn enemy actions against them, as well as more standard degenerative and nerfing skills. Mesmers can push out enormous armor ignoring damage and influence the outcome of the battle with a single well-placed spell. A Mesmer can shut down enemies by interrupting their actions, disabling their skills and removing their adrenaline and energy. They can also cause health degeneration and afflict hexes that reverse the advantages of foes into liabilities, and apply a wide range of conditions. A Mesmer can even use someone's own energy against them (with skills like Energy Burn)'

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@"Solori.6025" said:And ANET seems to think anyone playing a mesmer doesn't know what they are talking about. So lets not listen to the thousands of suggestions about how to make the class fun yet balanced NOOOoooOOInstead they look at the thread that starts off with " MesMeR HaS PeRmA sTeALtH and InVuLn! Plz nerf dis how..."It's why issues that are ACTUALLY issues haven't been addressed yet.

My laugh lines hate you. :joy:

@Burnfall.9573 said:'Mesmers are often called the most difficult profession to play in Guild Wars, but if played well, can cause a lot of trouble for the enemy. They are best described as the debilitating or the saboteur profession that eschew outright attacks; they instead use misdirection against the foolish and rely on control-based abilities to sap foes of their strength. They can be used to their highest potential when played in a group'

Sounds good but don't think people would hate Mesmers any less.

'Knowing your enemy as well as yourself is the path to victory for Mesmers, whose primary function is to control the enemy's agenda. Mesmers enjoy a vast array of tools to disrupt or turn enemy actions against them, as well as more standard degenerative and nerfing skills.

Sounds kind of like confusion and torment.

Mesmers can push out enormous armor ignoring damage and influence the outcome of the battle with a single well-placed spell. A Mesmer can shut down enemies by interrupting their actions, disabling their skills and removing their adrenaline and energy. They can also cause health degeneration and afflict hexes that reverse the advantages of foes into liabilities, and apply a wide range of conditions. A Mesmer can even use someone's own energy against them (with skills like Energy Burn)'

I think they gave some of this to necro.

Yeah overall even if Mesmer were reworked this way, I'm 99% sure the qq would continue.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

GW1 Mesmer wouldn't work here. Most of its functions either are covered under generalized conditions (confusion, slow, etc), traits (every interrupt trait basically), or can't function in this game (anything that deals with energy manipulation). Furthermore, your call for a rework, which is unlikely in itself, is extremely vague. How should it be reworked? The criteria you mentioned are extremely subjective and it's entirely possible the ANet and many players already see them as having filled that theme.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:GW1 Mesmer wouldn't work here. Most of its functions either are covered under generalized conditions (confusion, slow, etc), traits (every interrupt trait basically), or can't function in this game (anything that deals with energy manipulation). Furthermore, your call for a rework, which is unlikely in itself, is extremely vague. How should it be reworked? The criteria you mentioned are extremely subjective and it's entirely possible the ANet and many players already see them as having filled that theme.

It would work, there are several threads on elite specs (I mentioned those on mirage/mesmer is op thread) that take gw1 mes influence and move it into gw2 aspects.But just imagine the reaction of people that are constantly saying mirage is op if anet reworked gw2 mes into gw1 mes. Forums would blow up from all nerf mes threads.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@EpicTurtle.8571 said:GW1 Mesmer wouldn't work here. Most of its functions either are covered under generalized conditions (confusion, slow, etc), traits (every interrupt trait basically), or can't function in this game (anything that deals with energy manipulation). Furthermore, your call for a rework, which is unlikely in itself, is extremely vague. How should it be reworked? The criteria you mentioned are extremely subjective and it's entirely possible the ANet and many players already see them as having filled that theme.

It would work, there are several threads on elite specs (I mentioned those on mirage/mesmer is op thread) that take gw1 mes influence and move it into gw2 aspects.But just imagine the reaction of people that are constantly saying mirage is op if anet reworked gw2 mes into gw1 mes. Forums would blow up from all nerf mes threads.

Yeah I looked at them, I arrived at much the same conclusion. Personally I thought they were rather hamfisted attempts at bringing GW1 into the game, but that's my opinion.