Theft within a guild

[ShiningSquirrel.3751]

@alcopaul.2156 said:

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

Unless things have changed dramatically, you would still be out of luck in that situation as well. Anet could restore your account if someone hacked it and deleted/sold your items but guilds could not be restored so anything taken from a guild bank was gone forever. This may have changed, but if it has I have not heard of it yet.

well i remember way way back when i was in a wvw guild that the account of a guildie got compromised and took some things in the bank. her husband explained to the guild leader the situation. idk if she contacted a.net CS (most likely yeah) and i noticed that there has been no fusses between our guildie and the guild leader (so i assumed that the things the account hijacker took from the bank was restored)

Your making a lot of assumptions there without any facts, sso I do not really know what your point is?It's like saying a friend of a friend of a friend did this or that. Easy to say but hard to prove.

[alcopaul.2156]

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

Unless things have changed dramatically, you would still be out of luck in that situation as well. Anet could restore your account if someone hacked it and deleted/sold your items but guilds could not be restored so anything taken from a guild bank was gone forever. This may have changed, but if it has I have not heard of it yet.

well i remember way way back when i was in a wvw guild that the account of a guildie got compromised and took some things in the bank. her husband explained to the guild leader the situation. idk if she contacted a.net CS (most likely yeah) and i noticed that there has been no fusses between our guildie and the guild leader (so i assumed that the things the account hijacker took from the bank was restored)

Your making a lot of assumptions there without any facts, sso I do not really know what your point is?It's like saying a friend of a friend of a friend did this or that. Easy to say but hard to prove.

what did i say? i was a member/2nd in the roster of a WvW guild way way back that had that issue. of course, i know what happened based on the stories within the guild. the only assumptions that i made is that she contacted the CS and the guild bank was restored. otherwise, the guild leader should've kicked her if the "stolen" items was not restored, coz it will follow that she is lying.

[Malediktus.9250]

Opportunity makes the thief.

[ShiningSquirrel.3751]

@alcopaul.2156 said:

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@alcopaul.2156 said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

Unless things have changed dramatically, you would still be out of luck in that situation as well. Anet could restore your account if someone hacked it and deleted/sold your items but guilds could not be restored so anything taken from a guild bank was gone forever. This may have changed, but if it has I have not heard of it yet.

well i remember way way back when i was in a wvw guild that the account of a guildie got compromised and took some things in the bank. her husband explained to the guild leader the situation. idk if she contacted a.net CS (most likely yeah) and i noticed that there has been no fusses between our guildie and the guild leader (so i assumed that the things the account hijacker took from the bank was restored)

Your making a lot of assumptions there without any facts, sso I do not really know what your point is?It's like saying a friend of a friend of a friend did this or that. Easy to say but hard to prove.

what did i say? i was a member/2nd in the roster of a WvW guild way way back that had that issue. of course, i know what happened based on the stories within the guild. the only assumptions that i made is that she contacted the CS and the guild bank was restored. otherwise, the guild leader should've kicked her if the "stolen" items was not restored, coz it will follow that she is lying.

You said yourself you "assumed" the bank was restored, which support has said would not be done and you then say "based on the stories" which is just hearsay. If it was recent and they had changed their policy maybe but you are saying "way back when" when that would clearly be not true at all from the many posts and statements by anet employees in the forums concerning this. For example:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/support/Guild-Bank-hacked-1

Just do a google search.

[Linken.6345]

@"alcopaul.2156" said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

All chats and mails are loged so easy to check that since the guy should know day and aproximate time he asked for permission.

[Ashen.2907]

Very unfortunate. I feel for the OP and his guild.

Unfortunately if Anet were to investigate the findings would likely be:

Fact 1: officer was given permission to remove from the bank.Fact 2: officer removed from the bank as per permission given.

I would not be opposed to more granular permission controls.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

All chats and mails are loged so easy to check that since the guy should know day and aproximate time he asked for permission.

And when the alleged offender states that the request and permission were given via Discord voice chat?

[Leo G.4501]

I think they could add more permission and restriction options but the error in this situation is the human factor. You can make a system as fail-safe and impenetrable as possible but if a human opens the entry wide open, would more security accomplish anything?

But yeah, perhaps adding more permissions options like requiring a confirmation from multiple present leaders so long as said leaders have continued to log in in the past 2 weeks or something. But to reiterate, there are inherently means around these measures because they've been designed that way.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Linken.6345 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

All chats and mails are loged so easy to check that since the guy should know day and aproximate time he asked for permission.Ingame chats, yes. What about third party communication channels though?

And of course there's more complications. Let's say that anet does what was asked and intervenes, punishing the "thief" and returning the item/items to the guild. 2 months later someone else logs in and says "whoops, i did give him permission. I may not be the guild leader or officer, but i was the person that put those items in the bank in the first place, so i should have a say in this". Let's say the guild leader and some officers do not agree with that interpretation. Let's say some officers do agree. And let's say that some months after that someone else says "yeah, you put those items in the guild bank, but those were a stuff we farmed in a group together, so i should also have a say in all of this". And everytime one of those things happen, Anet support people are getting more and more bald due to pulling out their hair in despair. Of course it doesn't have to happen that way, but it could happen that way.

Hint: not all cases are clear-cut. Many are more complicated, and getting to the bottom takes time, and often deciding on a"fair" solution is not possible, because not only there are no clear rules and laws that govern this, but also often getting a clear, wider picture of what had happened is simply not possible. In such a case any ruling is going to be subjective, and someone in the end is going to feel cheated.Yes, some cases are relatively simple, but there's the catch: it's often impossible to easily see which case is which without deep and lengthy invesigation that takes a lot of time and effort (and sometimes it's impossible even with such an investigation). And the cost of making a mistake for Anet can simply be too great.

So, it's way better to not get involved. And in the long run, it's better not only for Anet, but for anyone else as well.

[Linken.6345]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

All chats and mails are loged so easy to check that since the guy should know day and aproximate time he asked for permission.

And when the alleged offender states that the request and permission were given via Discord voice chat?

Screenshot and send in to anet.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Linken.6345 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:The ex-guildie thief can easily make an alibi, saying "I emailed them and permitted me to take all the items in the bank."

and you say otherwise.

The chat log can only say that much.

the thing that can be acted upon by a.net though if someone hi-jacks your account (a non-guildie) sells your items and the items in the guild bank. that's a whole different issue since it was an intrusion from totally anonymous person.

All chats and mails are loged so easy to check that since the guy should know day and aproximate time he asked for permission.Ingame chats, yes. What about third party communication channels though?

And of course there's more complications. Let's say that anet does what was asked and intervenes, punishing the "thief" and returning the item/items to the guild. 2 months later someone else logs in and says "whoops, i did give him permission. I may not be the guild leader or officer, but i was the person that put those items in the bank in the first place, so i should have a say in this". Let's say the guild leader and some officers do not agree with that interpretation. Let's say some officers do agree. And let's say that some months after

that

someone else says "yeah, you put those items in the guild bank, but those were a stuff we farmed in a group together, so i should also have a say in all of this". And everytime one of those things happen, Anet support people are getting more and more bald due to pulling out their hair in despair. Of course it doesn't have to happen that way, but it

could

happen that way.

Hint: not all cases are clear-cut. Many are more complicated, and getting to the bottom takes time, and often deciding on a"fair" solution is not possible, because not only there are no clear rules and laws that govern this, but also often getting a clear, wider picture of what had happened is simply not possible. In such a case any ruling is going to be subjective, and someone in the end is going to feel cheated.Yes, some cases

are

relatively simple, but there's the catch: it's often impossible to easily see which case is which without deep and lengthy invesigation that takes a lot of time and effort (and sometimes it's impossible even

with

such an investigation). And the cost of making a mistake for Anet can simply be too great.

So, it's way better to not get involved. And in the long run, it's better not only for Anet, but for anyone else as well.

Ofcourse its better for anet to not get involved not saying they should, just answerd her/his hypothetical what if permissions was granted.

EditAnd if permission were granted it wouldent end up in a support ticket or forum post so yea redundant

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

And when the alleged offender states that the request and permission were given via Discord voice chat?@Linken.6345 said:Screenshot and send in to anet.How is it that someone screenshots Discord voice chat?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Girbilcannon.8259" said:Hello everybody, Just yesterday my guild bank was raided by an officer right before he ditched the guild and blocked everybody in game and on discord. Keep in mind that this was not just a normal member or even a new officer...he has been an officer for at least 6 months or so and waited until we had a good amount gold and valuable items before taking action. We reached directly out to Anet for answers, and they were kind enough to hit us with the good old "We don't get involved with guild politics" speech. Though it is not what we wanted to hear, we have an amazing player base that helped us get back on track in less than 6 hours. That is nice and all, but the thought is still on my mind...what about the person who did the crime? Will he do it to another guild? Why does Anet not take action against players who can pull of a slick crime like this?

What do you all think about this kind of situation and the GMs pretty much saying "You're on your own"?Do you feel like Anet should step up and take actions against these thieves if presented with a clear case and plenty of evidence to go with it?

I'm very sorry that this happened to your guild. It's not the stuff; it's the betrayal of trust.

---

Regardless of what the policy is or should be, I would recommend that you do the following:

• Make sure that ANet knows the name of the person; they will punish people who make a habit of it. (And have done so, according to ANet.)
• Contact the moderators of GW2 Exchange, the gray market subreddit. They might put this person on their blacklist, to prevent them from trying to use their forum/discord to sell the guild or any of the contents.

---

In terms of policy... as others have said, there is never any way to be sure of who is telling the truth. It might be that in some cases, perhaps even yours, that the truth is easily discovered. But in most cases, it would take hours of detective work to determine whether it was theft or payment for services rendered or whatever.

It's not "better" that ANet doesn't get involved; it's just more fair for all guilds if everyone knows that the burden of guild security is on the guild leaders.

[Linken.6345]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

And when the alleged offender states that the request and permission were given via Discord voice chat?@Linken.6345 said:Screenshot and send in to anet.How is it that someone screenshots Discord voice chat?

Crap just woke up I read discord chat.Well that aint proof at all so wouldent worry about it.

[Ashen.2907]

The only completely solid provable here is that the 'thief' was given permission to take the contents of the bank...and did so.

Sucks, but there it is.

[Leo G.4501]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

And when the alleged offender states that the request and permission were given via Discord voice chat?@Linken.6345 said:Screenshot and send in to anet.How is it that someone screenshots Discord voice chat?

What? You don't know how to take pictures of audio lol

[Magek.4718]

I can see both sides of this.

On one hand, robbing a guild blind should be against the rules. In fact, I vaguely remember this WAS at least at one point a rule in WoW. They're basically the same thing as a scammer but on a much larger scale so why not?

At the same time, if you give him that power, you need to realize that you ARE the one who gave him that power in the first place. And maybe if you trusted him, that's a bigger issue than your guild losing all your stuff. You were betrayed by someone you trust, someone you thought of as a friend. And if you didn't think of them like that, there is your first problem.

It's the same thing as player-to-player trading in other games and trades by mail in this game. Yes, the person shouldn't have scammed you in the first place and should be punished for it but the second you press that "Accept" or "Send" button and not "Decline", the only person you have to blame at that point is yourself.

The best thing you could so right now is start a blacklist and gather information to fill out the blacklist with potential villains so this doesn't happen again. Talk to other guilds, get the word out. Tell them to blacklist this person too so they don't fall to the same mistake as you. That's how it was done in other MMOs I've played in the past like WoW and Eden Eternal.

[Gemnaid.4219]

War within guilds..... guild wars!

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Blacklists are fine...unless the 'thief' wasn't a thief, at all. No one knows, for sure, but the parties involved; which is why ArenaNet can't get involved.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@ShiningSquirrel.3751 said:

@"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:(1) The "best" such episode that I ever saw was an eBay seller rather than an MMORPG guild member. The guy sold an assortment of stuff, and had a very positive reputation with thousands of satisfied customers over a period of several years, then one day he just did a bunk with money from a bunch of buyers, including my late wife. The guy eventually got three and half years in Club Fed, but the look on my wife's face when I told her, "Hey, you have a letter from the FBI!"(2) was priceless.

Would that have been "Liquidation Universe" as the seller?

In our case, no. It was someone calling himself "the barry" or a variation on that, in 2005 or so.

[Hugheszie.6291]

There wasn't any crime committed, under any international law. Since it's a video game. Stop using that phrase.

Next, he/she had permission to remove items, and removed them. Not breaking any rules or regulations and/or terms set out by the guild and/or video game.

It's a shame and it's dishonorable behavior sure and a nasty thing to do. But that's about it. Bloody sucks. Sorry to hear this has happened. Be more careful of whom you choose to be in your guild in the future with permission to do such things.

In legal terms, in a real world situation, you gave permission and thus, the person(s) whom did this action; cannot be held liable for removable of items.

In court, if you gave permission to somebody to use your bank account and they emptied it and went to a small claims court, you'd lose the case until the point in time in which you revoked said permission.

[Ashantara.8731]

@alcopaul.2156 said:srs guilds mean that you already know each other by the time spent among yourselves. and by that, you already know some of his personal info, like his face, his voice, (skyping and comms and fb account or instaG) and his email addresses. and most likely his real name and home address.

Where did you get that idea from? I wouldn't want people from my guild to know any of that. Online buddies <> real-life friends. (Edit: Yes, of course some might become your real-life friends, but that is the exception rather than the rule. People need to learn to not be so naive when going online.)

[Imber.4902]

I once helped someone get a guild up and running. Claimed the guild hall and was then asked if I wanted in - sure. Deposited a lot of mats to upgrade. A few weeks in, was asked to help deposit some more mats for a larger upgrade while waiting for aetherium or whatever. I did, everyone was happy. Next day, the guild was gone. Well, I suppose it's still there and most likely have a guild membership count of one.

I was kinda stumped at the time, but eh. I was to blame for not thinking ahead. I consider that more of a theft than what you descibe in the OP. It's not raided if there was permission. Hopefully, more people will remember this now that it's been brought to light and perhaps add some more restrictions to it's members.

[Odinens.5920]

@Girbilcannon.8259 said:...says more about the person than it does the guild management.

This is exactly why they can do nothing about it. It's a problem with people being put in trusted positions that shouldn't be, not a problem with in-game guild management mechanics.

It's the same as in real life, people are placed in trusted positions, and sometimes those people turn out to be not-so-trustworthy. There isn't really anything anyone can do about it. Unfortunately, this is a game, so unlike real life, we can't just have them arrested for embezzlement, or whatever.

I don't agree with what happened, but there has to be a line of trust somewhere among players/friends. Either you do, or you don't, trust anyone. Which would you prefer to do?

[alcopaul.2156]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:srs guilds mean that you already know each other by the time spent among yourselves. and by that, you already know some of his personal info, like his face, his voice, (skyping and comms and fb account or instaG) and his email addresses. and most likely his real name and home address.

Where did you get that idea from? I wouldn't want people from my guild to know any of that. Online buddies <> real-life friends. (Edit: Yes, of course some might become your real-life friends, but that is the exception rather than the rule. People need to learn to not be so naive when going online.)

a guild can be another circle of your friends. ever heard of gaming conventions? or an organized guild meetup in some place?

and before you do those 2 things, you probably know them by physical appearance (chat [video.audio]) and their manners [the way they act in your guild]. you would probably know them also by real name (since 6 years of playing and you only know your officer as "The Ranger", which is ridiculous) and look at the criminal records/background check websites (which are many online) by inputting the right data, if you're still suspicious.

all systems go? you have a line of security, which builds up your trust on them.

this is too much hardcore as you see but you could've done these things that i told if you were like playing together for 10 years++.

[Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.294]

I'm trying to fathom what you're stockpiling in your guild bank that would make it worthwhile for the time and effort to steal? Seriously the only stuff that goes in my guild's bank is stuff that is there for everyone to take and use. Set the rules for taking stuff from the bank and boot the people that violate them. And don't stick gold in there, that's just asking for theft.