Stop Complaining About Scrapper, It Isn't OP - Now With Video Proof

[Megametzler.5729]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:(...)Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!(...)

But... the response to this was always "not true"?

Apart from that, yes, hypocrisy is best. :wink: I still do not think scrapper is OP - but mentioned several times before, I do not think it is healthy for the game.

[Balsa.3951]

My theory is Anet want to create roles bunker and burst

Scrapper will be turned down but it’s some interesting tactics if each team has one bunker and some burst. Thief decap might be dead in that meta

[BlackTruth.6813]

^which is pretty much Launch's meta, minus the obnoxious condition tank builds. Good riddance, finally the game has a chance to shine again albeit really low chance of reaching it's former glory of GW2 e-sports pre-HoT 2015

[Quadox.7834]

@BlackTruth.6813 said:^which is pretty much Launch's meta, minus the obnoxious condition tank builds. Good riddance, finally the game has a chance to shine again albeit really low chance of reaching it's former glory of GW2 e-sports pre-HoT 2015

It really, really doesn't

[Fortus.6175]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400341382?filter=all&sort=time

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

And so on.It's truly a delight to read these forums.

It is almost as if "The Forums" wasn't a single person, but rather a collection of several people with different opinions.... dunno man, that stuff is tough to grasp I feel.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400341382?filter=all&sort=time

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

And so on.It's truly a delight to read these forums.

It is almost as if "The Forums" wasn't a single person, but rather a collection of

several

people with different opinions.... dunno man, that stuff is tough to grasp I feel.

Except it comes from the same people. Stuff tough to grasp I feel.

[Fortus.6175]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400341382?filter=all&sort=time

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

And so on.It's truly a delight to read these forums.

It is almost as if "The Forums" wasn't a single person, but rather a collection of

several

people with different opinions.... dunno man, that stuff is tough to grasp I feel.

Except it comes from the same people. Stuff tough to grasp I feel.

Unlikely, but still possible, but mostly unlikely.

It is a common fallacy to bunch up people under one common umbrella rather than give them an individual opinion, and while yes, several people will contradict themselves, there will still be people on both sides of the argument, and then some more sides. This thread is a prime example of it; you have people for, agaisnt and indifferent about scrappers, you simply can't bunch them all together and say "everyone said X but now they said Y" because chances are, those were different people, just that you simply can't remember their name (which is normal, unless you are obsessed with some one in particular or a couple of people, you probably wont remember the name of most forum users).

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400341382?filter=all&sort=time

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

And so on.It's truly a delight to read these forums.

It is almost as if "The Forums" wasn't a single person, but rather a collection of

several

people with different opinions.... dunno man, that stuff is tough to grasp I feel.

Except it comes from the same people. Stuff tough to grasp I feel.

Unlikely, but still possible, but mostly unlikely.

It is a common fallacy to bunch up people under one common umbrella rather than give them an individual opinion, and while yes, several people will contradict themselves, there will still be people on both sides of the argument, and then some more sides. This thread is a prime example of it; you have people for, agaisnt and indifferent about scrappers, you simply can't bunch them all together and say "everyone said X but now they said Y" because chances are, those were different people, just that you simply can't remember their name (which is normal, unless you are obsessed with some one in particular or a couple of people, you probably wont remember the name of most forum users).

Yeah, I always forget how big pvp population is on this game and especially on these forums. Easy to mistake people. /sA tip: search the OP and have fun with the contraditions.

[Curunen.8729]

Funny, that generalisation argument always seems to be applied in the case of mesmer mains, painted with the same brush...

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@everyman.4375 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This'll be my final post in this thread. I just wanted to point out that there were no scrappers on either team in the final round of NA Monthly AT:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/400341382?filter=all&sort=time

Well on EU we had a scrapper on almost every team in mAT.

Even funnier when someone made thread about 'there is no mesmers in mAT finals' someone who made the thread got nothing but hate, why this work for anything that not a mesmer? Being a hypocrite is fineeeeee

Same thing crossed my mind when I read that.Before: There were no mesmer in mAT - It doesn't matter, it's op and needs a nerf!Now: There were no scrappers in mAT - it's proof it's not op!

Before: Balance should take into account the medium spectrum of players!Now: Balance should take into account the top tier players only!

Before: Nerf mesmer core traits/skills to balance mirage!Now: Don't nerf core traits/skills, nerf only elite ones!

And so on.It's truly a delight to read these forums.

It is almost as if "The Forums" wasn't a single person, but rather a collection of

several

people with different opinions.... dunno man, that stuff is tough to grasp I feel.

Except it comes from the same people. Stuff tough to grasp I feel.

Unlikely, but still possible, but mostly unlikely.

It is a common fallacy to bunch up people under one common umbrella rather than give them an individual opinion, and while yes, several people will contradict themselves, there will still be people on both sides of the argument, and then some more sides. This thread is a prime example of it; you have people for, agaisnt and indifferent about scrappers, you simply can't bunch them all together and say "everyone said X but now they said Y" because chances are, those were different people, just that you simply can't remember their name (which is normal, unless you are obsessed with some one in particular or a couple of people, you probably wont remember the name of most forum users).

Oh rest assured, some of these people do get obsessed with certain forum users and the goal of winning arguments against them, or at least finding some fickle way of discrediting a statement, even if it involves convoluted nonsensical responses and complete misinformation. They will actually take their time to browse back through several hours worth of someone's posting history, including the old forum, to dig up some kind of quoted case & example of something someone once said in 2014, so they can point out how much of a hypocrite he is or how he is contradicting himself. Of course they do this in the absence of recognition that, a comment about meta in 2014 has nothing to do with a comment about meta in 2019, or that it really doesn't matter if someone is being a hypocrite or contradicted a statement, that doesn't mean that their current stance on a topic is incorrect. There is also a special kind of lack of self awareness in the fact that, attempting to discredit others while pointing in every direction except the actual discussion, is a losing end's last tactic.

In all my years of foruming, I've learned that for most people a forum is simply a place to post feedback, but for some other people it is a game mode worthy of pay2play. I only wish that I could somehow peer through their cameras and see the faces of vengeance as they push that "Post Comment" button, after taking 3+ hours of their day to form some would-be nuclear response to someone's OP opinion.

[Solori.6025]

@Curunen.8729 said:Funny, that generalisation argument always seems to be applied in the case of mesmer mains, painted with the same brush...

RIGHT!What's been interesting in this thread is the complete 180 of how things should be balanced. As summarized by @"Lincolnbeard.1735".Like at some point I wonder if people actually sit down and think about what they are typing and what they typed before.Like, for one class that is nerfed you blindly go after it, creating thread after thread using the same tired arguments. Trying to Discredit people for maining that class and even going so far as saying " Any other post about X is wrong and you should ignore it"But when the shoe is on the foot of a different class or the class they main.All those same things that were knocked down are now the poster child of the arguments presented and the center of the discussion.

The environment of extreme bias needs to end.This thread is a prime example of it.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Funny, that generalisation argument always seems to be applied in the case of mesmer mains, painted with the same brush...

RIGHT!What's been interesting in this thread is the complete 180 of how things should be balanced. As summarized by @"Lincolnbeard.1735".Like at some point I wonder if people actually sit down and think about what they are typing and what they typed before.Like, for one class that is nerfed you blindly go after it, creating thread after thread using the same tired arguments. Trying to Discredit people for maining that class and even going so far as saying " Any other post about X is wrong and you should ignore it"But when the shoe is on the foot of a different class or the class they main.All those same things that were knocked down are now the poster child of the arguments presented and the center of the discussion.

The environment of extreme bias needs to end.This thread is a prime example of it.

Let's not blow this out of proportion or flat out create raw misinformation that is in no way true at all. These kinds of responses are exactly what my previous post was detailing, when people get a bit too excited and form loose connections in their minds, about things that never happened. Let's recap what actually happened:

• The only real source of anything that has been said, that could have been viewed as even remotely hypocritical, was me pointing out that "No Scrappers were used in the final round of the Monthly AT in NA." and this is if the person viewing this as hypocritical, believed that I had said at some point: "Oh it doesn't matter if Mirage wasn't in the AT final, it's still OP." This is something that never happened. Here is the link to the thread where 90% of my Mirage argument occurred: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66114/will-mirage-ever-get-a-proper-nerf/p1 Skimming through this, you'll see that I never once said anything even close to relating the strength of a class to it's representation in ATs or in Ranked play. If you want to try hard and dig through other threads, go for it, but you won't find anything of the sort. The problem here is that people are doing exactly what @"Fortus.6175" mentioned about "generalizing players under one umbrella." People are somehow remembering me as the louder voice within Mirage discussion, and then associating ALL remarks within that discussion from ALL users, with me. That's a pretty inaccurate and unjust method for the public encouragement that someone is a hypocrite.
• Funny enough, if you were to go back an reread some of these god awful Mirage threads, you'd see that the very same people who are in here saying: "Look at the hypocrites saying Scrapper isn't OP because it wasn't in the monthly, when they said Mirage was still OP even though it wasn't in the monthly" are actually the people who in reality were saying in those threads: "Mirage isn't OP because it wasn't in the monthly." who are now in here saying: "Scrapper is still OP even though it wasn't in the monthly." <- That is actually how it happened, go reread it. So the people in here who are calling hypocrite, are actually the ones being hypocrites. It's hilarious actually. Seriously, go read back through this stuff. It's amazing how human beings can and will selectively remember things differently than how they actually happened.
• So not only am I not a hypocrite, because I did not once say anything that contradicted anything, but I am also the one person who took my time to post a video, showing everyone how to dispatch of Scrappers with DPS builds. <- In the world of debate that would be considered "strong evidence to support a statement." You see, I don't need to point fingers and distract from the discussion at hand, or attempt to discredit others. I just well arrange my arguments and provide supporting evidence there-off.

But yeah, I don't mind if you guys disagree with me and provide whatever subjective points of views that you want in contrast to my points made. It's a forum and that's what forums are for. But would you please, be more careful with your demographic labeling of "who is a hypocrite" or "who has no credibility to speak at all because they contradict themselves." Make sure you're 100% positive that toxic crap is true, before you dump it on someone's head. It isn't cool my good bros.

[Curunen.8729]

For the record my post was a general observation and desire for parity between how people view different classes and those who play them - don't think I even thought of you when I wrote it so no need to jump on the defensive. I'll let Solori speak for himself. :)

It was stimulated from the number of times over the years I see a variety of comments describing mesmer mains as entitled, whiny, complaining, carried by the class or whatever (paraphrasing) - when in reality there are a lot of us each with different personalities, attitudes and visions for how we want things to be.

Yes it is usually a slight bias to maintain one's own class' relative balance - I certainly admit to this in the case of a few things, and this is usually exacerbated by the fear of Anet's balance method (ie nothing or nuke from orbit) - but overall I'd like to think many decent players of any particular class will identify their own vision of what should be adjusted for the sake of balance.

From my personal standpoint I rarely if ever point the "class is OP" finger at anything (or generalising mains of a particular class) - mainly because it can be the case where I don't know enough fine detail about a class to identify any proper balance changes (I stick to what I think needs changing on mesmer) - so in that respect I personally like to be treated in a similar manner regarding mesmer, rather than what I usually see as unbridled and irrational prejudice towards it and those who play it (again an untargeted statement for the desire to improve player relations).

[zinkz.7045]

People that go about MAT's are funny. Even putting aside that you don't balance a game just on the top 1% (especially not a game like this), they seem to be missing that the populaton is so small in 2019 that the "best" players of each class are not all equally skilled and that affects what gets played in MAT's.

[Crab Fear.1624]

i heard the last patch was backwards and gave them more barrier. proof died

[BlackTruth.6813]

You ALSO use game mechanics as evidence. Look at turret engi for example, do you keep that automatic socialist garbage in the game even though nobody uses that in high level play? (When in fact, it DID make it to a tournament at one point) This MAT/leaderboards argument is feelings based evidence. Actual AI, evades, instant-cast, and how those work for the class in terms of how hard it baits cds and dodges are REAL EVIDENCE.

An example would be how Turret Engi back in the day could bait dodges AUTOMATICALLY because they can still do damage with a broken amulet like Sentinel Amulet, and be NEAR immortal because SENTINEL amulet was disgusting effective HP. Do you REALLY think you should be defending something so unhealthy and gives ANET a bad reputation when it is common sense that it is obnoxious and bad designed?

hashtags #factsdontcareaboutyourfeelings #realevidence

[Solori.6025]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Funny, that generalisation argument always seems to be applied in the case of mesmer mains, painted with the same brush...

RIGHT!What's been interesting in this thread is the complete 180 of how things should be balanced. As summarized by @"Lincolnbeard.1735".Like at some point I wonder if people actually sit down and think about what they are typing and what they typed before.Like, for one class that is nerfed you blindly go after it, creating thread after thread using the same tired arguments. Trying to Discredit people for maining that class and even going so far as saying " Any other post about X is wrong and you should ignore it"But when the shoe is on the foot of a different class or the class they main.All those same things that were knocked down are now the poster child of the arguments presented and the center of the discussion.

The environment of extreme bias needs to end.This thread is a prime example of it.

Let's not blow this out of proportion or flat out create raw misinformation that is in no way true at all. These kinds of responses are exactly what my previous post was detailing, when people get a bit too excited and form loose connections in their minds, about things that never happened. Let's recap what actually happened:

• The only real source of anything that has been said, that could have been viewed as even remotely hypocritical, was me pointing out that "No Scrappers were used in the final round of the Monthly AT in NA." and this is if the person viewing this as hypocritical, believed that I had said at some point: "Oh it doesn't matter if Mirage wasn't in the AT final, it's still OP." This is something that never happened. Here is the link to the thread where 90% of my Mirage argument occurred:
  https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/66114/will-mirage-ever-get-a-proper-nerf/p1
  Skimming through this, you'll see that I never once said anything even close to relating the strength of a class to it's representation in ATs or in Ranked play. If you want to try hard and dig through other threads, go for it, but you won't find anything of the sort. The problem here is that people are doing exactly what @"Fortus.6175" mentioned about "generalizing players under one umbrella." People are somehow remembering me as the louder voice within Mirage discussion, and then associating ALL remarks within that discussion from ALL users, with me. That's a pretty inaccurate and unjust method for the public encouragement that someone is a hypocrite.

If the shoe fits?Though my post wasn't entirely directed towards you. But since you quoted me.When I talked about trying to discredit someone else, or the opinions of others I am referring to the comment on which you instruct people to ignore discussions outside of things you and your friends thought was an issue.Post I am referring to-https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/820845/#Comment_820845( You also did this to someones youtube video)

I believe when Lincoln was talking about people saying it's ok to nerf core for elite specs for mesmer.He was talking about your post herehttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/729083/#Comment_729083( incidentally this is also your jaunt suggestion that surprise, ended up happening, and I hate you for it)

What I also found interesting was your complete 180 on this stance for counters herehttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/750947/#Comment_750947

When currently the only thing that can (or could) really counter or push off a scrapper was a niche number of builds that could be easily shut down by others.

But my post you quoted wasn't directed at you specifically.

..This one is though....

• Funny enough, if you were to go back an reread some of these god awful Mirage threads, you'd see that the very same people who are in here saying: "Look at the hypocrites saying Scrapper isn't OP because it wasn't in the monthly, when they said Mirage was still OP even though it wasn't in the monthly" are actually the people who in reality were saying in those threads: "Mirage isn't OP because it wasn't in the monthly." who are now in here saying: "Scrapper is still OP even though it wasn't in the monthly." <- That is actually how it happened, go reread it. So the people in here who are calling hypocrite, are actually the ones being hypocrites. It's hilarious actually. Seriously, go read back through this stuff. It's amazing how human beings can and will selectively remember things differently than how they actually happened.
• So not only am I not a hypocrite, because I did not once say anything that contradicted anything, but I am also the one person who took my time to post a video, showing everyone how to dispatch of Scrappers with DPS builds. <- In the world of debate that would be considered "strong evidence to support a statement." You see, I don't need to point fingers and distract from the discussion at hand, or attempt to discredit others. I just well arrange my arguments and provide supporting evidence there-off.

I think you are misunderstanding the meme here.Mes wasn't present in the top of echelons of the competitive side of GW2- people still called for nerfs.That actually happened and the reason was. " It's not fun to fight" and " the game should be balanced around the largest portion of the game, the middle tiers, not the top 10%"Not saying it was you who said it. For me at least I see it as a reminder to the crappy community that silently agreed and didn't disagree. Because it wasn't their class on the line.

But yeah, I don't mind if you guys disagree with me and provide whatever subjective points of views that you want in contrast to my points made. It's a forum and that's what forums are for. But would you please, be more careful with your demographic labeling of "who is a hypocrite" or "who has no credibility to speak at all because they contradict themselves." Make sure you're 100% positive that toxic kitten is true, before you dump it on someone's head. It isn't cool my good bros.

Welp, this is the community that was nurtured. I would say, honestly, get used to it.I had to deal with it for a year ( more actually) because my stances on things are unpopular with the crying on the forums.Toughen up buttercup.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Solori.6025" said:Toughen up buttercup.

No no, I agree. However, am I probably the person who endures more of this kind of treatment out of anyone else. In fact, more people recognize me from my forum posts, than they do in game experiences with me. I can post something as broad and true as "HERALD DEALS LOTZ OF DAMAGE BOYS" and I would seriously have 4 to 6 people come into my thread, within the hour, and actually go out of their way to form strange metaphysical arguments against that statement, followed by strange convoluted memories from some alternate reality, detailing something I did or said, that seriously never happened at all.

The 1st problem with all of this is that when people begin to slander someone enough, other people begin to believe it. This is the entire idea behind commercialism "except commercialism says something positive about a product" and it works. The 2nd problem with all of this is that people find coy ways to slander a person in some given environment, whether at work or a forum, by doing it nicely with smileys behind each sentence. So it ends up being something that isn't necessarily breaking any TOS agreement, and you can't really stop them from doing it. The 3rd problem with all of this is that the community is much smaller now, and potential friend making or new reputation growth is very limited. You can "toughen up" sure, but when people are actively playing the long game of smiley slander and getting away with it, there comes a point where you have to stand up for yourself and point out what is untrue, least you fall unto some negatively commercialized memetic legacy.