scrapper aside - the real problems of this game are not even acknowledged yet

[Fortus.6175]

While I do find it funny that the person who made this post has played Mirage with Jaunt (which has pretty much all of these issues he described in his/her own thread) , I do agree that teleports are an issue as they are when coupled with unblockables/boon steal/iframes/high upfronted damage/stealth + damage.  I have been saying this since beta, and Im sure if someone is bored enough to dig through my old posts (going back 6 years) will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over again:  Mechanics that are one sided like the current implementation of stealth (where every other popular game in existence in the last few years have learned from this and made it more of a minigame for both sides, or give stealth drawbacks)andTeleports (which in here ignore verticality and LoS ) which gives an intangible advantage that can't be measured like healing/damage, but it is still very relevant and game changing, will create unbalances that are binary: either these classes are really strong, or really weak, no middle ground. No amount of number shifting will fix this because those things are fundamentally strong. Thieves have been in meta since beta, will continue to be in meta till the end of days until those things change.  

Sw/D thief is the biggest offender, which mind you, it is a core build (which has been powercreeped through traits that were changed to prioritize stability and many more things). Steal prioritizes stability and is unblockable, can daze, heal and is really low CD (should be an elite-long CD for all it does). Sword has #2 that ignore verticality and LoS, instant teleport and no CD, couple with #3, an unblockable high damage (!) skill that steals boons which prioritize rej and protection. For as long as builds like this and revs with their instant cast and damage exist, squishy classes without as many teleports/iframes (like mesmers) cannot and will not survive in any competitive manner (eles being always on the receiving end since beta, in fact, all ele builds that have been strong is because they were bunkerish, not squishy, unless we are talking about FA which again, is not healthy for the game and has never been competitive).

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Fortus.6175 said:While I do find it funny that the person who made this post has played Mirage with Jaunt (which has pretty much all of these issues he described in his/her own thread) , I do agree that teleports are an issue as they are when coupled with unblockables/boon steal/iframes/high upfronted damage/stealth + damage.  I have been saying this since beta, and Im sure if someone is bored enough to dig through my old posts (going back 6 years) will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over again:  Mechanics that are one sided like the current implementation of stealth (where every other popular game in existence in the last few years have learned from this and made it more of a minigame for both sides, or give stealth drawbacks)andTeleports (which in here ignore verticality and LoS ) which gives an intangible advantage that can't be measured like healing/damage, but it is still very relevant and game changing, will create unbalances that are binary: either these classes are really strong, or really weak, no middle ground. No amount of number shifting will fix this because those things are fundamentally strong. Thieves have been in meta since beta, will continue to be in meta till the end of days until those things change.  

Sw/D thief is the biggest offender, which mind you, it is a core build (which has been powercreeped through traits that were changed to prioritize stability and many more things). Steal prioritizes stability and is unblockable, can daze, heal and is really low CD (should be an elite-long CD for all it does). Sword has #2 that ignore verticality and LoS, instant teleport and no CD, couple with #3, an unblockable high damage (!) skill that steals boons which prioritize rej and protection. For as long as builds like this and revs with their instant cast and damage exist, squishy classes without as many teleports/iframes (like mesmers) cannot and will not survive in any competitive manner (eles being always on the receiving end since beta, in fact, all ele builds that have been strong is because they were bunkerish, not squishy, unless we are talking about FA which again, is not healthy for the game and has never been competitive).

Oh boy... What have you done...Prepare yourself for another round of victim complex thieves saying how wrong you are.

[Chaith.8256]

Since when is steal unblockable, am I taking crazy pills here or are you?

@Fortus.6175

Also bountiful theft prioritizing stab was not power creep, that's 2012 design

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Fortus.6175 said:While I do find it funny that the person who made this post has played Mirage with Jaunt (which has pretty much all of these issues he described in his/her own thread) , I do agree that teleports are an issue as they are when coupled with unblockables/boon steal/iframes/high upfronted damage/stealth + damage.  I have been saying this since beta, and Im sure if someone is bored enough to dig through my old posts (going back 6 years) will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over again:  Mechanics that are one sided like the current implementation of stealth (where every other popular game in existence in the last few years have learned from this and made it more of a minigame for both sides, or give stealth drawbacks)andTeleports (which in here ignore verticality and LoS ) which gives an intangible advantage that can't be measured like healing/damage, but it is still very relevant and game changing, will create unbalances that are binary: either these classes are really strong, or really weak, no middle ground. No amount of number shifting will fix this because those things are fundamentally strong. Thieves have been in meta since beta, will continue to be in meta till the end of days until those things change.  

Sw/D thief is the biggest offender, which mind you, it is a core build (which has been powercreeped through traits that were changed to prioritize stability and many more things). Steal prioritizes stability and is unblockable, can daze, heal and is really low CD (should be an elite-long CD for all it does). Sword has #2 that ignore verticality and LoS, instant teleport and no CD, couple with #3, an unblockable high damage (!) skill that steals boons which prioritize rej and protection. For as long as builds like this and revs with their instant cast and damage exist, squishy classes without as many teleports/iframes (like mesmers) cannot and will not survive in any competitive manner (eles being always on the receiving end since beta, in fact, all ele builds that have been strong is because they were bunkerish, not squishy, unless we are talking about FA which again, is not healthy for the game and has never been competitive).

Lol so mirage being universally one of the best duellers will never be competitive because of a class universally known as a +1 class cuz it can’t 1v1 better than any class other than maybe Eli?lmao if u think s/d is powercrept u need to learn to play better wow. So is it op cuz it can tele to an already engaged opponent to help down it? Cuz pretty sure mirage has ports etc to do same and can do far better once enemy is engaged than a thief ever could,only reason thief still decapper over mirage is infilt arrow,mirage literally outclasses it as most other classes do at anything else. If ur dying 1v1 to any thief build u need practice hard lol

[Quadox.7834]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:While I do find it funny that the person who made this post has played Mirage with Jaunt (which has pretty much all of these issues he described in his/her own thread) , I do agree that teleports are an issue as they are when coupled with unblockables/boon steal/iframes/high upfronted damage/stealth + damage.  I have been saying this since beta, and Im sure if someone is bored enough to dig through my old posts (going back 6 years) will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over again:  Mechanics that are one sided like the current implementation of stealth (where every other popular game in existence in the last few years have learned from this and made it more of a minigame for both sides, or give stealth drawbacks)and

Teleports

(which in here ignore

verticality and LoS

) which gives an intangible advantage that can't be measured like healing/damage, but it is still very relevant and game changing, will create unbalances that are binary: either these classes are really strong, or really weak, no middle ground. No amount of number shifting will fix this because those things are fundamentally strong. Thieves have been in meta since beta, will continue to be in meta till the end of days until those things change.  

Sw/D thief is the biggest offender, which mind you, it is a core build (which has been powercreeped through traits that were changed to prioritize stability and many more things). Steal prioritizes stability and is unblockable, can daze, heal and is really low CD (should be an elite-long CD for all it does). Sword has #2 that ignore verticality and LoS, instant teleport and no CD, couple with #3, an unblockable high damage (!) skill that steals boons which prioritize rej and protection. For as long as builds like this and revs with their instant cast and damage exist, squishy classes without as many teleports/iframes (like mesmers) cannot and will not survive in any competitive manner (eles being always on the receiving end since beta, in fact, all ele builds that have been strong is because they were bunkerish, not squishy, unless we are talking about FA which again, is not healthy for the game and has never been competitive).

Lol so mirage being universally one of the best duellers will never be competitive because of a class universally known as a +1 class cuz it can’t 1v1 better than any class other than maybe Eli?lmao if u think s/d is powercrept u need to learn to play better wow. So is it op cuz it can tele to an already engaged opponent to help down it? Cuz pretty sure mirage has ports etc to do same and can do far better once enemy is engaged than a thief ever could,only reason thief still decapper over mirage is infilt arrow,mirage literally outclasses it as most other classes do at anything else. If ur dying 1v1 to any thief build u need practice hard lol

I think he was talking about shatter mesmer (mesmer in its roaming forms), but yeah you were right to critise what he said.

Thief is not as weak vs Mesmer 1v1 as you say at all, and it can also win vs rev for example. Problem is that it loses cap, takes too long, and is vulnerable to +1 from opponent thief - it is not worth.

It is (in my opinion) true that thief has historically kept other squishies out of the meta. Roamers with lower mobility must, generally, be able to outsustain/fend off those with higher. Guard is a good example of this. I think it is possible that Anet thought of this which is why they gave Mirage so much mobility on sword.

I am sort of biased after exclusively playing Mes but the reason I dislike SD thief is because of how fundamentally unpunishable it is. You either outsustain or (in rare cases) hit it with something equally stupid, such as instant damage (mantra of pain, fa ele) or trait procs. Some thieves complain that SD does low damage / hits like a wet noodle, but the thing is this is what keeps it balanced. For thief to be great in 1v1, 2v2, teamfight, you would have to tone down its dis-/reengage. (talking about SD, staff is quite different).

[Math.5123]

Flänby is like my favorite person.

[apharma.3741]

@Chaith.8256 said:Since when is steal unblockable, am I taking crazy pills here or are you?

@Fortus.6175

Also bountiful theft prioritizing stab was not power creep, that's 2012 design

I think they're referring to basi venom steal and are still playing in 2017.

[Quadox.7834]

@Chaith.8256 said:Since when is steal unblockable, am I taking crazy pills here or are you?

@Fortus.6175

Also bountiful theft prioritizing stab was not power creep, that's 2012 design

That's true, however steal didn't daze/interrupt through stability from the start, due to SoH triggering first (iirc).

[Chaith.8256]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Since when is steal unblockable, am I taking crazy pills here or are you?

@Fortus.6175

Also bountiful theft prioritizing stab was not power creep, that's 2012 design

That's true, however steal didn't daze/interrupt through stability from the start, due to SoH triggering first (iirc).

Pretty sure it always stole stability and dazed you with Slight of Hand since near the game launched.

June 25, 2013

This trait will now trigger before Sleight of Hand..

[Abelisk.5148]

How can people even defend this kitten? There is actually no way to predict this shit most of the time. Sure, you can see people casting beforehand but if there are multiple people near you there is no way.

Also can we just ban stealth in PvP? Thanks.

[Quadox.7834]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Since when is steal unblockable, am I taking crazy pills here or are you?

@Fortus.6175

Also bountiful theft prioritizing stab was not power creep, that's 2012 design

That's true, however steal didn't daze/interrupt through stability from the start, due to SoH triggering first (iirc).

Pretty sure it always stole stability and dazed you with Slight of Hand since near the game launched.

June 25, 2013This trait will now trigger before Sleight of Hand..

Doesn't that point to the opposite?

[crepuscular.9047]

@incisorr.9502 said:The only things that counter thief and rev + 1 burst are people with lots of defensive stats (scrappers) and both playing a defensive build and against a defensive build is boring for both sides. I'm not saying the game should only have offensive builds but it shouldn't be so exreme and it should stay on a middle ground.

rev is nowhere as offensive as SBB ranger and mirages, revs are pretty much useless if you keep them at rangeall you need is avoid once during their burst to stay alive, and they are pretty much screwed because they are as glassy as a staff core ele

scrappers are pretty useless against thieves because most of their kits resolve around blocking projectiles, and thieves can easily pressure even the most well-prepared scrapper with melee

[Sampson.2403]

Is Revenant really not considered to be top tier / overpowered in high elo?

[Ario.8964]

@Sampson.2403 said:Is Revenant really not considered to be top tier / overpowered in high elo?

Revenant is really only good due to how busted OH sword is. The weapon alone carries the entirety of the class in high elo due to how strong the near 1 shot burst capability is in +1 and teamfights vs a squishy target like scourge. Revenant outside of that is actually pretty lackluster in performance as it has less sustain, condi clear and stab than any other meta build out there. Yes it has lots of stunbreaks but those require lots of energy or have cd's and don't prevent any follow up cc. The best thing for rev would be to buff rev's other aspects (removing target damage splits on sword 2, 3, and 4; removing the root on shield 5, etc.) that allow it to perform in combat and nerf OH sword appropriately (make sword 4 a 1.5s block again that swaps to SW and reduce shackling wave damage by 10-20%, nerf sword 5 second strike damage by 10-20%) to tone down the part of the class that is actually overperforming.

Those in higher elo recognize how influential it is, but they also know how to play against on and shut it down when it has no support so it's not the broken monster some perceive it to be.

[Sampson.2403]

Now that condi mirage is no longer the threat it used to be, I feel like Rev is an Elite Predator walking among sheep. I think OH sword is only part of what makes it OP. I roflmao in RL quite often while playing Rev with some of the stuff I pull off or I see others pull of. I can only imagine how busted this class is in the hands of a top player on a coordinated team.

Some of the stuff that doesn't get complained about on the forums (versus what does) is very interesting. But hey! fine by me! Hopefully Rev just gets buffed then because no one seems to think it's OP!

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ario.8964 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Is Revenant really not considered to be top tier / overpowered in high elo?

Revenant is really only good due to how busted OH sword is. The weapon alone carries the entirety of the class in high elo due to how strong the near 1 shot burst capability is in +1 and teamfights vs a squishy target like scourge. Revenant outside of that is actually pretty lackluster in performance as it has less sustain, condi clear and stab than any other meta build out there. Yes it has lots of stunbreaks but those require lots of energy or have cd's and don't prevent any follow up cc. The best thing for rev would be to buff rev's other aspects (removing target damage splits on sword 2, 3, and 4; removing the root on shield 5, etc.) that allow it to perform in combat and nerf OH sword appropriately (make sword 4 a 1.5s block again that swaps to SW and reduce shackling wave damage by 10-20%, nerf sword 5 second strike damage by 10-20%) to tone down the part of the class that is actually overperforming.

Those in higher elo recognize how influential it is, but they also know how to play against on and shut it down when it has no support so it's not the broken monster some perceive it to be.

Can you really say high ELO players know how to play against it and shut it down when its been winning each MAT for a while, often on both finalist teams, is consistently the playermaker that makes kills happen and had solid representation with 2 showings in the top 10 last season and a lot more in the top 25? Seems to me like it does amazing in higher ELO.

The only real thing that shuts Glint+Shiro Rev down is a meta with lots of condition damage builds, like on Path of Fire's release when Scourge was the best build for ranked easily and Condition Mirage was also top tier. When condition damage isn't very present (Like now, its basically scourge now and you're going to see mesmer mains start flocking to Bunker Chrono next season) it's able to dominate in the meta.

[Quadox.7834]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@incisorr.9502 said:The only things that counter thief and rev + 1 burst are people with lots of defensive stats (scrappers) and both playing a defensive build and against a defensive build is boring for both sides. I'm not saying the game should only have offensive builds but it shouldn't be so exreme and it should stay on a middle ground.

rev is nowhere as offensive as SBB ranger and mirages, revs are pretty much useless if you keep them at rangeall you need is avoid once during their burst to stay alive, and they are pretty much screwed because they are as glassy as a staff core ele??

scrappers are pretty useless against thieves because most of their kits resolve around blocking projectiles, and thieves can easily pressure even the most well-prepared scrapper with melee

What kind of opposite-world is this??

[Ario.8964]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Ario.8964 said:

@"Sampson.2403" said:Is Revenant really not considered to be top tier / overpowered in high elo?

Revenant is really only good due to how busted OH sword is. The weapon alone carries the entirety of the class in high elo due to how strong the near 1 shot burst capability is in +1 and teamfights vs a squishy target like scourge. Revenant outside of that is actually pretty lackluster in performance as it has less sustain, condi clear and stab than any other meta build out there. Yes it has lots of stunbreaks but those require lots of energy or have cd's and don't prevent any follow up cc. The best thing for rev would be to buff rev's other aspects (removing target damage splits on sword 2, 3, and 4; removing the root on shield 5, etc.) that allow it to perform in combat and nerf OH sword appropriately (make sword 4 a 1.5s block again that swaps to SW and reduce shackling wave damage by 10-20%, nerf sword 5 second strike damage by 10-20%) to tone down the part of the class that is actually overperforming.

Those in higher elo recognize how influential it is, but they also know how to play against on and shut it down when it has no support so it's not the broken monster some perceive it to be.

Can you really say high ELO players know how to play against it and shut it down when its been winning each MAT for a while, often on both finalist teams, is consistently the playermaker that makes kills happen and had solid representation with 2 showings in the top 10 last season and a lot more in the top 25? Seems to me like it does amazing in higher ELO.

The only real thing that shuts Glint+Shiro Rev down is a meta with lots of condition damage builds, like on Path of Fire's release when Scourge was the best build for ranked easily and Condition Mirage was also top tier. When condition damage isn't very present (Like now, its basically scourge now and you're going to see mesmer mains start flocking to Bunker Chrono next season) it's able to dominate in the meta.

Read the whole sentence, there's a part in there that says "when it has no support" a solo rev is free food in teamfights as they do not have near the sustain available to other builds in the meta, they have no stab, and they have very little condi clear. With a support in there it gives rev the sustain and durability it needs to free cast that broken OH sword damage multiple times which is what makes it look dominant. I'm not saying rev needs no changes, it's clear it does and it's silly to deny it, but the changes need to be to the right things otherwise nothing will get accomplished. OH sword is the culprit of the imbalances, it's the one in need of changing.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pls stop feeding the trolls.

[Elrond.9486]

@Sampson.2403 said:.

Some of the stuff that doesn't get complained about on the forums (versus what does) is very interesting. But hey! fine by me! Hopefully Rev just gets buffed then because no one seems to think it's OP!

Lol what? People talk/complain about Rev's overtuned damage any time it's brought up.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@otto.5684 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:surviving a gank by a good rev is impossible, you can't kite the class cus phase traversal is 5 sec cd and cus they have so much cc and unblockable and so much dmg.

When you don't know how a class work so you write "so much" infront of everything.

First of all, Phase traversal requires 35 energy, you gain 5 energy per second so the CD is 7 sec, wich is low indeed, BUT using phase traversal would then mean you do not have energy left to use actual damaging skills. CC'ing a rev that use phase traversal on you will almost certainly result in the rev dying because unless glint is off CD, the rev will not have energy to use riposting shadows to break out of the stun. and since rev does not have any passives saving him from making mistakes like this you can easily kill the rev during this knockdown. I've had times where I made this mistake and a warrior used Bull's Charge on me and then gs2 and I couldn't do anything and I was instantly dead.

I'd also like to know where this "so much cc" is coming from? You have Staff 5 wich is a mediocre CC as it just knocks your opponent back and doesn't knock him down for 2-3 seconds giving you free time to hit him. Then you have Glint Elite wich is a good CC but on 45 second CD. And then you have Shiro's Elite wich requires 50 energy so nobody actually uses it except for stowing and baiting out dodges or right before switching to Glint. In a real fight where the rev is being targeted he'll NEVER be able to afford using his Shiro's Elite anyway as that 50 energy can easily cost him his life. The only way people use this skill is when they join a fight and aren't targeted by anyone.

The only unblockable attacks revenant can do are with Facet of nature on shiro or after using phase traversal wich are 2 unblockable attacks. It's not like rangers who can have 6 full seconds of unblockable attacks.

Also people always keep saying about how much damage Revenants do right, but everyone keep ignoring that meta rev is build for full dps and no sustain. If you warr on zerker he'll do 5k+ damage for every skill he has and he'll still have more sustain than rev. If you have ranger on sick/em you cna literally get one shotted if you get caught by one CC. Rangers gs 2 and the skill where they stomp the earth can easily hit for 9k, but nobody talks about it because not that many people play it.

Regardless of what you think of phase traverse (I think it is fine considering CD and energy costs) or other instant teleport to target skills, they should require POV LOS.

Think it's too much of a game changer to make all ports act that way, also what about spectual walk?

[Alatar.7364]

@crepuscular.9047 said:scrappers are pretty useless against thieves because most of their kits resolve around blocking projectiles, and thieves can easily pressure even the most well-prepared scrapper with melee

What...Anything, ANYTHING with the tiniest bit of sustain is instantly hard counter to thief. In what world is a profession with highest sustain in game useless vs profession with the worst 1v1 potential and subpar dmg?