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Druid pet nerf is NOT ok! Here's why and what to do instead


Musha.4025

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Percentage reduce is bad. We got +stats with beast mastery but a multiplier for druid...Making -100 base stat for pet would be enough (bit lower then beastmastery trait)Our celestial magic is a bonus option with a trade-off in damage. It isn't a constant effect, like the attribute reduction...

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@Musha.4025 said:

@lare.5129 said:very glad that pet dps is nerfed, this can additionally get some bonus to other heal in instance parties only,But also and no one disable possibility take druid traits, take condi set and be dps ... Why not ?

Because when equating the ranger to other classes, the ranger is considered essentially 2 separate entities: the ranger and its pet. The ranger + the pet = a full class. You can't tell a ranger to just take condi set and be dps and not use their pet, because then they're only half a class!! A ranger STILL NEEDS its pet to run any sort of dps build, power or condi. That's like telling a Necro not to use shroud to try to make a viable build. I mean come on! Pick any other elite spec and reduce all of its atts by 20% and see what happens.

So spell breaker can only do tier 1 bursts. 2.0 vs 3.0 coeff for t1 vs t3 burst. That's a huge nerf but it's a nerf to 1 skill not a blanket 20% nerf to the whole class. Weavers complain about not having access to the base #3 skills which tend to be strong (shocking or magnetic aura or mobility skills etc). Reaper shroud has a faster degen rate than death shroud. A lot of elite specs do have down grades built into them. They are just more elegant or less obvious than 20% nerf to stats. What confuses me is that I always thought the gating on CA was the down grade. Having to focus on healing to quickly charge up CA meant you had to focus less on damage to use the new mechanic.

Also your math is wrong:Smoke scale base power: 1674 *0.8 + 750 (might) +150 (pack alpha)2239 / 2574 power ~13% nerf to power. Pets don't have ferocity so that wasn't nerfed at all. I remember pet crit being weird but the math is probably similar. 20% nerf to base, 150 pack alpha is unchanged, 20% from fury means it's not a 20% nerf to crit chance.

1000 condi damage -200 but new bonus 150 from pack alpha is only -50 condi dmg. For 700 condi dmg pets - 140 +150 is technically a buff.1750 vs 1700 condi dmg on a bleed stack is 127 vs 124 or 2.4% nerf.

A 20% nerf to base stats of just your pet isn't a 20% nerf to damage. Furthermore, the pet doesn't make up the majority of your damage unless you are running one of those minstrel troll builds. I don't think it was necessary nerf but this is not as bad as people are making it out to be.

At this point, I don't think this change is really about balance alone but perception. I think the casual PvE Raid community is so stuck on chrono/druid that they are trying to break perception. FB/Ren is very viable/optimal but I guess their metrics show that ppl still aren't swapping. So they keep bopping Druid to try to get more ppl to try new stuff. Also, the spirit changes were actually a buff to frost/sun up time for PvE Druid so the deletion of GoE isn't so bad.

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@Psaro.6178 said:I believe the pet nerf was needed for sPvP and WvW game modes.Full bunker druids would play passively and anet is trying to remove these passive play styles from the game.

If really its because of that is coming 3 years late. Nobody used druid in those gamemodes from PoF.

Im pretty sure it was because a roleplayer thing and whoever is pushing this ideas has a very romantic(as a hollywood movie) view of the class which isnt aligned with the rest of the game or any pvp mode.

Either way nerfing pet 20% doesnt actually change anything: most of the damage comes from the stacks of might and fury and the tankiness from protection. Dogs went from 16k hp to 13kp. Any autoattack with might in this game does crits over 3k.

Still almost nobody likes to play with a druid in pvp.

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Some of you are acting like they nerfed the whole class across the board by 20% for taking Druid. All they did was cut our pets base attributes by 20% even if you’re running a super pet focused build your pet isn’t even doing 50% of our total damage. Not to mention as a Druid you have an immense amount of might and fury to provide to your pet, which will more than make up for the stat nerf.

And if you’re using your pet for it’s CC, well then literally nothing changed. This nerf is barely going to impact Druid in any game mode, they might take slightly longer to kill people, but that’ll be about it. It’s not like Druid was ever taken in PvE for its personal damage output anyway.

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@LughLongArm.5460 said:

@LughLongArm.5460 said:All the other examples they gave wither got a re-work or a buff to core spec mechanic. Druid was the only spec getting a direct mechanical nerf. And ya, I also don't agree with the philosophy of making the druid support only spec. Non of the other support oriented specs was designed like that . Firebrand and scourge for example can be very dangerous offensively if they are build toward that goal.

„Druid was the only spec getting a direct mechanical nerf.“

Berserker and Daredevil want to talk to you.

Both got a rework to their mechanic, not a direct mechanic nerf without any compensation.

I'm sorry, but how is Berserker not the perfect example?Many people don't seem to get the whole trade-off thing.

Berserkers gain Berserk and lose baseline Bursts.Druid gain CA and lose 20% stats on pets.Daredevils gain one Dodge but lose range on Steal (Dodge vs. Range ... not the unblockable part)

Yes, the timing is bad in the sense that not all specs got their trade-off yet. However, there is nothing new to be given to Druids to compensate for the lost stats. They already get their benefit. CA. It's an add on which Ranger doesn't have otherwise. Arguing wether CA has a resource or a CD or yadda yadda is just semantics in the end. Also, we are having the same silly discussions - especially over at the Thieves forum - like when stuff gets nerfed. If something gets nerfed, don't expect a buff in a different place. This usually defies the purpose of the respective change to begin with.

I also got to agree with Durzlla that people are being overly dramatic about this.

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@Xaylin.1860No, you're missing the point here. This post is not about the trade-offs. It's about the implementation of a unilateral nerf on Druid that does not function as a trade-off, but a drawback. As I said in my original post, I'm ok with the trade-off philosophy as long as EVERY SINGLE elite spec for every profession gets an equivalent trade-off mechanic installed. Anet is still working on those, so it is too early to even talk about the trade-offs, so let's not. At least, not yet. Let's see what happens with the other elite specs first.THIS post is about how the pet nerf on druid is not at all a trade-off, but a complete downgrade to the entire elite spec that flat out kills the build diversity with that spec. The change on Berserker ADDS build diversity; power Berserker is now a thing. In my estimation that's a great thing! The change to Daredevil does not change build diversity at all, it's a true trade-off; you wanna play a dps Daredevil? You still can! How about a CC Daredevil? Yep! Is support Daredevil a thing? If it is, it is unaffected by this change. With the Druid change, there is now only one build that you can play: a support/healer. This change completely eliminates any power OR condi dps build that a Druid could play previously because the utility and damage provided by the pet is now gone. I've seen several dps druid builds in pvp and pve that do not use spirits or Celestial Avatar. I've even used them myself and had a great time with them. Does a Druid who does not fulfill a support role deserve to have their pet nerfed so much? Absolutely not!So keep the trade-off! If support Druid is so strong that they need a weaker pet, so be it. But activate it ONLY if that Druid is ACTUALLY fulfilling that support role! Give the pet the downgrade ONLY IF they activate CA and for a short time afterward.

@Xaylin.1860 said:I also got to agree with Durzlla that people are being overly dramatic about this.

Most likely because you and Durzlla aren't understanding the actual issue here and what is at stake. Go try it out. Go make a dps Druid build now and see how it works for you. CA is only a benefit if you spec for it. You must devote all of your gear to buffing CA for it to become viable. And then, it is only a benefit if you use it. You don't see Reapers losing a flat percentage to all of their attributes just because they have ACCESS to a more powerful shroud. Nor do you see Berserkers getting nerfed across the board just because they have ACCESS to zerk mode. On top of that, Reaper shroud and zerk mode don't require you to select specific stats on your gear in order for them to function well.

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@"Xaylin.1860" said:I also got to agree with Durzlla that people are being overly dramatic about this.

People have various opinions about it, so I doubt you can say anything worthwhile about how people are reacting.

For one, I think the implementation is lazy. So lazy in fact, it even looks out of place in the adept trait that tells you your pet now has - 20 % to its stats. Secondly, having trade offs just for the sake of having trade offs, and calling further balancing "just semantics" doesn't make any sense. The purpose of trade offs should be balancing. To the point where I think a spec without a trade off shouldn't recive any unless its balance is out of whack.

The latter is very true with the druid. This pet nerf wasn't the final nail in the coffin, it's just another nail in an already shut coffin. They killed off build diversity from this spec a long time ago. You want a trade off? The trade off is that one of the lowest damaging core classes in the game devout an entire trait line to what is mostly a bunch of selfless traits. Shortly after the launch of HoT, you could use CA as selfsustain + CC with little actual investment into it other than ways to fill the CA meter. That's not the case anymore.

But you wanna know what annoys me the most? How lazy it is. Why not take the opportunity to implement the pet properly into the spec. Fine. Strip the pet of its offensive attributes. In turn, boost its healing power and concentration stats. Add pet interractions to the traits. Make the pet a part of the support role they're forcing the druid to be. The trade off will still be a damage loss, but at least it will feel a bit more wholesome and the pet won't be an afterthought that is even more susceptible to aoe and spam than it already was. I would prefer the build diversity the druid used to have, but Anet clearly decided on that a long time ago, so I will take the next best thing.

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@Lazze.9870 said:

@"Xaylin.1860" said:I also got to agree with Durzlla that people are being overly dramatic about this.

People have various opinions about it, so I doubt you can say anything worthwhile about how people are reacting.

For one, I think the implementation is lazy. So lazy in fact, it even looks out of place in the adept trait that tells you your pet now has - 20 % to its stats. Secondly, having trade offs just for the sake of having trade offs, and calling further balancing "just semantics" doesn't make any sense. The purpose of trade offs should be balancing. To the point where I think a spec without a trade off shouldn't recive any unless its balance is out of whack.

The latter is very true with the druid. This pet nerf wasn't the final nail in the coffin, it's just another nail in an already shut coffin. They killed of build diversity from this spec a long time ago. You want a trade off? The trade off is that one of the lowest damaging core classes in the game devout an entire trait line to what is mostly a bunch of selfless traits. Shortly after the launch of HoT, you could use CA as selfsustain + CC with little actual investment into to it other than ways to fill the CA meter. That's not the case anymore.

But you wanna know what annoys me the most? How lazy it is. Why not take the oppertunity to implement the pet properly into the spec. Fine. Strip the pet of its offensive attributes. In turn, boost its healing power and concentration stats. Add pet interractions to the traits. Make the pet a part of the support role they're forcing the druid to be. The trade off will still be a damage loss, but at least it will feel a bit more wholesome and the pet won't be an afterthought that is even more susceptible to aoe and spam than it already was. I would prefer the build diversity the druid used to have, but Anet clearly decided on that a long time ago, so I will take the next best thing.

This!!!!!

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@Lazze.9870 said:But you wanna know what annoys me the most? How lazy it is. Why not take the oppertunity to implement the pet properly into the spec. Fine. Strip the pet of its offensive attributes. In turn, boost its healing power and concentration stats. Add pet interractions to the traits. Make the pet a part of the support role they're forcing the druid to be. The trade off will still be a damage loss, but at least it will feel a bit more wholesome and the pet won't be an afterthought that is even more susceptible to aoe and spam than it already was. I would prefer the build diversity the druid used to have, but Anet clearly decided on that a long time ago, so I will take the next best thing.

Amen to that. Wouldn't mind the pet reduction if it interacted with Druid (without traits) while having some more traits work with the pet. Ideas are bountiful with plenty of room to have some fun with it, even if it would be minor effects.

Having the pet gain the same celestial glow when entering Celestial Form and providing additional support during the form. Strip and shift some parts around like moving the effect of Cultivated Synergy to occur around the pet when Natural Convergence channel completes, then revamping Cultivated Synergy to have pet effects during Celestial Form to also apply to the Druid (skills 2-5 only - see below).

Shift the healing and blindness parts from Lingering Light as part of the pet's interaction during Celestial Form. The healing portion becomes a small area heal that occurs around the foe a pet strikes with an auto attack so that ranged pets can aid allies in melee from a distance. The pet's next attack inflicts blindness after casting Seed of Life to negate additional damage, then alter Lingering Light to also apply the bonus to the pet's healing during Celestial Form.

There's some actual synergy there since the pet would then have baseline support built-in during Celestial Form, along with traits such as Invigorating Bond and pets that have skills which heal allies like Fern Hound and Moas.

Bring back an old idea and refit it with a new purpose, such as the pet gaining a lesser Astral Wisp when Rejuvenating Tides is cast so it has it's own pseudo healing area that follows it around. Finally, have a short healing power stat boost for the pet after casting Lunar Impact.

Tweak Natural Stride to also affect the pet and now there's baseline pet interaction with the Druid spec, as well as 3 traits in each tier players can select that strengthen the synergy, interaction, and bond between the Druid and pet. Probably not everyone's cup-of-tea since it's just more healing, but the very least, it's something involving the pet.

 

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making the nerf only for beast skills is another optionand if you do a trade off, then boost our celestial skills! if you use the form, you loose your dps, because mostly only your pet can attack. Ok we got a cc+heal, lot of heal, and an AoE doing some damage (not worth it), I use it for cc.
Give us OPTIONS in celestial avatar form, and then we can speak about diversity and trade-off

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@Psaro.6178 - I agree, where are our new awesome tools to actively do some damage with druid? We never asked to be passive bunkers with pet as the only source of burst potential. Now druids are not even bunkers, they can barley survive 1v1 on point vs meta offensive builds.

@Durzlla.6295 - True this is not 20% overall damage nerf, not even close. But it is a big nerf to druid burst which is extremely important to druid rotations , druids were already were at borderline of not be able to kill many of the meta builds even if you played perfectly. People are upset because many of us expected a big buff, not a nerf, especially after the overall scrapper got to get it right back into the heart of the meta.

@"Xaylin.1860" Berserker is actually the perfect example - They got a trade-off, with a full page of changes to the specialization. This is how it supposed to be done. I fully support the trade-off vision, I think it is great, but when you do it you need to think about the specialization roles and shortcomings in all areas of the game. Not sure they succeeded with the Berserker(we'll have to see) , but at-least they made a sincere effort.

People also forget that the pet's survivability also took a big hit which even bigger compared to the dps nerf. Even before the nerf it was hard to keep pets alive in PVP and WvW, instead of fixing the obsolete mini-game of "keeping the pet alive" , they made it harder. I'm positive it is obsolete as A.net got rid of this mechanic completely in PVE(immortal pets) and with Soulbeast(auto unlimited revive). So here is a trade-off I could live with - "pets stats 20% weaker, While in CA, druids pets are immune to all types of damage"(because of some nature and stars bound lore BS). Now let's re-evaluate everything about druid(traits/CA skills/staff etc...) and get druids back into a competitive level.

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@LughLongArm.5460 I cant remember what post I’ve said it in at this point, but I’m firmly of the belief (call it being optimistic or naive idc) that Anet lead with the nerf for Druid and is going to begin to rollback some of the nerfs to kind of judge just how much the 20% is gonna affect Druid first. Because if this 20% does literally nothing noticeable to Druids damage potential when running a squishy dps pet (whether it’s the damage itself or the how hard it is to kill said pet) I doubt they’d wanna roll back nerfs especially when Druid was just straight up oppressive before.

Or at the very least hopefully we will get some form of buffs to compensate, like pet immortality while in CA as you mentioned. But we’ll see. Hopefully I’m not wrong.

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@"Musha.4025" said:With this change, you have just forced druid players into a support role, just because they selected druid as their elite spec. I thought Anet was all about build diversity and opening up more build options. What if somebody wants to play a druid dps build (which IS a thing, btw), you just nerfed the puppy out of them!! When I play druid, I choose it because of the traits, not the profession mechanic. You should NOT penalize players for build diversity.

I am very ok with the whole trade-off philosophy as long as EVERY elite spec gets the trade-off revision. The update notes mention Necro elite specs as an example of "clear trade-off"s. Those are NOT trade-offs, they are clear upgrades! The elite spec shroud skills are far superior to core shroud skills. What does the Necro actually lose? Nothing. But I digress, that discussion is best left for a separate post. For the druid trade-off, instead of killing druid build diversity and forcing them into a support role, activate the trade-off only if/when a druid uses the extra mechanic. A druid who doesn't use Celestial Avatar is not really a druid, and should still be in touch with their pet. However, if they activate Celestial Avatar, they are translated into a new state of being where their connection to their pet decreases. So please give them the pet attribute decrease ONLY when in Celestial Avatar form and maybe even for a few seconds afterward, while the bond is reestablished. For puppys sake! Don't kill build diversity!

This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.

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@Obtena.7952 said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

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@Musha.4025 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

no, the classes shouldn't lock you in a role but elite specs aren't classes, they're traitlines

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@derd.6413 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

no, the classes shouldn't lock you in a role but elite specs aren't classes, they're traitlines

Picking Honor as a Guardian doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. Picking Water Magic as an Elementalist doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. You need to understand where people are coming from. Druid used to be perfectly viable as a complement to a more offensive ranger build. Anet keeps shoehorning it into being nothing except a healer with buffs.

Like I said in a few comments above, I would be fine with that if they didn't implement it in such a lazy way. Simply taking away pet stats is a lazy trade off. Their changes are making the Druid dull and second tier at best in anything that isn't raids.

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@Lazze.9870 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

no, the classes shouldn't lock you in a role but elite specs aren't classes, they're traitlines

Picking a Honor as a Guardian doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. Picking Water Magic as an Elementalist doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. You need to understand where people are coming from. Druid used to be perfectly viable as a complement to a more offensive ranger build. Anet keeps shoehorning it into being nothing except a healer with buffs.

Like I said in a few comments above, I would be fine with that if they didn't implement it in such a lazy way. Simply taking away pet stats is a lazy trade off. Their changes are making the Druid dull and second tier at best in anything that isn't raids.

perhaps but don't really see what else anet could've done as trade-off to druid tho

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@Lazze.9870 said:Picking a Honor as a Guardian doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. Picking Water Magic as an Elementalist doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. You need to understand where people are coming from. Druid used to be perfectly viable as a complement to a more offensive ranger build. Anet keeps shoehorning it into being nothing except a healer with buffs.

Exactly. Thank you.

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@derd.6413 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

no, the classes shouldn't lock you in a role but elite specs aren't classes, they're traitlines

Picking a Honor as a Guardian doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. Picking Water Magic as an Elementalist doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. You need to understand where people are coming from. Druid used to be perfectly viable as a complement to a more offensive ranger build. Anet keeps shoehorning it into being nothing except a healer with buffs.

Like I said in a few comments above, I would be fine with that if they didn't implement it in such a lazy way. Simply taking away pet stats is a lazy trade off. Their changes are making the Druid dull and second tier at best in anything that isn't raids.

perhaps but don't really see what else anet could've done as trade-off to druid tho

"trade-off" is just a new rhetoric to justify the nerfs to warrior, thief and druid. The same as because the druid is more focused in the magic magical they starved their pets and because of that those are weaker.Those "trade-offs" are not present to any other class \spec in game with the only exception of the reaper. Until all classes have "trade-offs" i would call them by their name: nerfs.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:This doesn't really make sense ... choosing Druid as a support role IS diversity in builds and opening build options because Soulbeast and Core Ranger are poor support. If you want to play DPS druid, you can ... it just won't be optimal. The meta think is infectious ... be aware that the game does not cater to that kind of thinking.Choosing Druid as DPS is build diversity. Choosing Druid as support is going with the flow. Regardless, no class or elite spec should lock a player into ANY role. That was the core concept upon which GW2 was developed.

no, the classes shouldn't lock you in a role but elite specs aren't classes, they're traitlines

Picking a Honor as a Guardian doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. Picking Water Magic as an Elementalist doesn't force you into a healer role nor does it restrict your offensive stats. You need to understand where people are coming from. Druid used to be perfectly viable as a complement to a more offensive ranger build. Anet keeps shoehorning it into being nothing except a healer with buffs.

Like I said in a few comments above, I would be fine with that if they didn't implement it in such a lazy way. Simply taking away pet stats is a lazy trade off. Their changes are making the Druid dull and second tier at best in anything that isn't raids.

perhaps but don't really see what else anet could've done as trade-off to druid tho

"trade-off" is just a new rhetoric to justify the nerfs to warrior, thief and druid. The same as because the druid is more focused in the magic magical they starved their pets and because of that those are weaker.Those "trade-offs" are not present to any other class \spec in game with the only exception of the reaper. Until all classes have "trade-offs" i would call them by their name: nerfs.

pretty sure they said in the patch notes themselves that more are to come (naming scrapper and chrono by name)

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