Isn't it time to be bad?

[joneirikb.7506]

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:I had a temp character I called Inquest Janitor once. (Because Inquest Lawyer was taken!) It felt a little disconnecty when he had to fight Inquest, but I concluded he was disgruntled and getting revenge on his old krewe leader. Of course, he bailed when it came time to put his life on the line to fight for Tyria, the wretch. (Shortly after he had finished key farming for me.)

The problem with getting to be a villain in THIS game is that there are so many different villainous factions, they would have to make a game ten times the current size. I mean, even supposing they came up with a new storyline in which an Unholy Quinity of White Mantle, Nightmare Court, Inquest, Flame Legion and Sons of Svanir allied together, people would not be happy. "I want to be a Bandit!" "I want to be a Charr Renegade!" "I'm nobody's flunky, I want to be an independent evil genius!" "I want to be a spy from Mallyck's tree reconnoitering for a takeover of the Grove by parasitic vines and tree fungoids!" "I want to be a lich controlling armies of undead!" "Why can't I be Mordrem?"

Whereas the hero's path is clear and simple (fight the bad guys and save the world) villains have so many more possible goals, motivations and methods that it's hard to think of a storyline that would satisfy everybody. Mayhem for mayhem's sake? A conspiracy with the dragons because you somehow WANT your world destroyed? Villainy for maximum personal profit? Fanaticism for a cause? Vengeance against the whole world? Usurping political power?

It's almost guaranteed that if any villainous storyline was added, the majority of players would be unhappy that it was not something else.

+1

Well, I guess just like the good guys had to band together to fight against the bigger threat, so could the bad guys realize that they have to battle the common threat or there will be nothing left for them to conquer etc.

I certainly agree that would certainly ruin a lot of what most people look for in playing bad-guy though.

Had they built this in from the start, they might have done something similar to the early PS story, where you could have chosen lots of different starting stories to represent this, and then have the story focus on this section/group of yours being dealt a severe blow from one main villains (Zhaitan at that time), that dedicates your group to fight back, and realize it can't do it without help, thus have a story arch about level 30 where you try to band together all these groups.

that way it could actually run parallel and similar to the main "hero path".

But yeah, it would have required to be added from the start of the game development, and would have doubled the work on the story part.

[Trise.2865]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

[Samuel.4812]

Is it absolutely confirmed that the balthazar we killed wasn't menzies?

[Dreams.3128]

@Rauderi.8706 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Totally worth it for whom?

For the five people "RP"ing in the bar DivReach detailing their secret, highly-public Separatist/White Mantle plot with a side of love triangle drama.Or the would-be dark elves left with no choice but to be Nightmare Courtiers, because water-drow aren't playable (and pray faith never will be).

In short, "bad" Command ihas no good utility for ANet to bother with.

White Mantle RP guilds are dead bruh. Kek.

[Ashen.2907]

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

Thats a very petty kind of villainy IMO.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Shiv.5781 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Also it would be extremly hard to implement it. Especialy for new releses

@"Vayne.8563" said:Guild Wars 1 is 12 years old and we never had the option to be the bad guy there either. Neither did Laura Croft. It's just not that kind of game. It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I know it would be hard to implement, it could be made into a LWS, or an expansion, but would be totally worth it. "heroic fantasy" can mean heroic in bad ways as well, heroic when u burn down tyria, heroic when you kill the commander ... Just something that's been on my mind for a very long time.

You dont understand. If you playedvas a bad guy and win then all expansion, dialoges and everything from that point would be completely diferent. Even if you did lose then it couldnt he thae same. All future releses would be affected

You don't really need to win, you know. You could be that heroic evil covert agent fighting those glorified thugs assuming roles of Paladins of Light for your hopeless cause deep behind enemy lines, knowing that you probably have no chance to win that war, yet refusing to put aside your ideals..

[Nick Malone.5641]

I really don't understand how being the bad guy is even possible in GW2. The Commander isn't fighting for "Truth, Justice and the Tyrian way", he's fighting for the survival of every being in the world. If he was a bad guy, winning = end of the world, game over. The bad factions in the game that aren't dragon minions are pursuing agendas that directly or indirectly help the dragons. There's just no story if the bad guys win at any stage in the game.

That being said, it is possible to view the Commander as a not-so-good guy. In my head, my Sylvari Mesmer is not a nice guy. But he is a very smart guy who realizes that he can get more for himself if everyone thinks he's a hero. Once he sees how dangerous the Dragons are, he decides that it's better to keep doing the hero stuff, because when he saves the world once and for all, he'll be in a position to exploit his fame to get whatever he wants. And if he doesn't save the world, 1. Someone else might do it and get credit that HE "deserves" and 2. If no one else does it, he'll die along with the rest of the world. Everything he does advances his goals. Even putting up with the idiocy of his allies in order to get them to do as he wishes. But his time shall come. He WILL get what's coming to him, one way or another!

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Shiv.5781 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Also it would be extremly hard to implement it. Especialy for new releses

@"Vayne.8563" said:Guild Wars 1 is 12 years old and we never had the option to be the bad guy there either. Neither did Laura Croft. It's just not that kind of game. It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I know it would be hard to implement, it could be made into a LWS, or an expansion, but would be totally worth it. "heroic fantasy" can mean heroic in bad ways as well, heroic when u burn down tyria, heroic when you kill the commander ... Just something that's been on my mind for a very long time.

You dont understand. If you playedvas a bad guy and win then all expansion, dialoges and everything from that point would be completely diferent. Even if you did lose then it couldnt he thae same. All future releses would be affected

You don't really need to win, you know. You could be that heroic evil covert agent fighting those glorified thugs assuming roles of Paladins of Light for your hopeless cause deep behind enemy lines, knowing that you probably have no chance to win that war, yet refusing to put aside your ideals..

And still. From that point on all story chapters ever will have to be diferent.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Shiv.5781 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Also it would be extremly hard to implement it. Especialy for new releses

@"Vayne.8563" said:Guild Wars 1 is 12 years old and we never had the option to be the bad guy there either. Neither did Laura Croft. It's just not that kind of game. It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I know it would be hard to implement, it could be made into a LWS, or an expansion, but would be totally worth it. "heroic fantasy" can mean heroic in bad ways as well, heroic when u burn down tyria, heroic when you kill the commander ... Just something that's been on my mind for a very long time.

You dont understand. If you playedvas a bad guy and win then all expansion, dialoges and everything from that point would be completely diferent. Even if you did lose then it couldnt he thae same. All future releses would be affected

You don't really need to win, you know. You could be that heroic evil covert agent fighting those glorified thugs assuming roles of Paladins of Light for your hopeless cause deep behind enemy lines, knowing that you probably have no chance to win that war, yet refusing to put aside your ideals..

And still. From that point on all story chapters ever will have to be diferent.

Why? They can go on as they do, just add a series of side-quests of sort, showing how it all looks like from perspective of the other side of the conflict while they conduct their covert operations all over the Tyria, spreading their influence. It's just supplementary story content, not changing direction of the main story.

[Abraxxus.8971]

A few months ago I came up with a story of our characters going bad. It went something like this...LW4E6: With Aurene gone, Kralk takes control of Caithe. We have to kill Caithe and that drives our character over the edge. We throw the "natural balance" to the wind and kill Kralkatorrik, taking his power for our own. Now with the power of Kralk, Zhaitan, Mordy, and Balth, we decide we are going to "fix" the world. We crush Elona under our heel and take control of the desert. Then we look towards Tyria. In a pincer attack, the Forged and Branded attack from the east, The Mordrem attack from the west, and the Risen attack from the south, and we conquor all of Tyria and start the Dark Rule. *My story: After conquoring the world, I would call Ceara back from the mists and I would take her as my queen as we ruled Tyria forever....FOREVER!...

Ands thats why i don't write for Arenanet.

[luzonophir.7134]

bad guys are sinister and wily and dangerous . well i'm talking about REAL bad guys (not the usual despotic or genocidal or fascist types or those who think that power lies on the barrel of the gun and money).

Say if your secret group belong to a Server and you isolate it to become a shadow group, and the enemy server is united fighting your server, you can freely choose who to side with. or you just can watch them fight and just gamble among yourselves who wins, that way you get entertained and freely manipulate both sides.

so this way, your group control both sides, by just choosing where to reside and strict group loyalty and reverence to your leaders.

i think this is the orientation of secret societies. or most likely the CIA. or the fabled Illuminati.

or maybe there is an esoteric Circle in the exoteric Catholic Church. The Church is full of imageries, icons, prayers, controls the schools/colleges/unis, etc. etc. (Elaine Pagels, who is an academic authority on Gnosticism, talked about this in her book "The Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters")

well there is the Order of Whispers in the game.

and would you expose your Queen and King, like parading them in the masses with regalias? they could be struck with lightning.

[Klowdy.3126]

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

Victor's write history. Had Hitler won, things would be told much differently.

Also, couldn't you assume we already were villains in PoF? We killed Balthazar because he wanted to kill Kralkitorik and we didn't like that, then we turn right around and start OUR campaign to kill Kralkitorik. Balthazar did not seem like he wanted to use the power obsorbed by that to destroy, or enslave the planet (but who knows). I guess we're mostly just hypocrites.

Edit: kitten= late 1940s German leader, which is apparently considered a bad word. Not as if his name could ever be used in an educational, or informative nature, not just used to belittle someone.

[Leo G.4501]

@"Abraxxus.8971" said:A few months ago I came up with a story of our characters going bad. It went something like this...LW4E6: With Aurene gone, Kralk takes control of Caithe. We have to kill Caithe and that drives our character over the edge. We throw the "natural balance" to the wind and kill Kralkatorrik, taking his power for our own. Now with the power of Kralk, Zhaitan, Mordy, and Balth, we decide we are going to "fix" the world. We crush Elona under our heel and take control of the desert. Then we look towards Tyria. In a pincer attack, the Forged and Branded attack from the east, The Mordrem attack from the west, and the Risen attack from the south, and we conquor all of Tyria and start the Dark Rule. *My story: After conquoring the world, I would call Ceara back from the mists and I would take her as my queen as we ruled Tyria forever....FOREVER!...

Ands thats why i don't write for Arenanet.

I would probably put a sympathetic twist in that after Kralkatorrik used some of your friends to take you out by corrupting them, you take the kid gloves off and throw caution to the wind, using any advantage to take Kralkatorrik out, possibly even losing friends in the process. Once you take the dragon's power for yourself, you turn to "protect" the world by using your "dragon cloak" powers (i.e. dragon corruption) to shield the populous from future dragon corruption while also preparing for the next onslaught of the next dragon that dares to stir awake. Of course you're oblivious to the pain and mutilation your "dragon cloak" causes and even if you did, it's better to live in anguish fighting for your existence than to be purged and forgotten in the turbulence of the mists. There is no other way: die fighting the world ending omnipotence of the elder dragons or be sacrificed for the cause.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Shiv.5781 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Also it would be extremly hard to implement it. Especialy for new releses

@"Vayne.8563" said:Guild Wars 1 is 12 years old and we never had the option to be the bad guy there either. Neither did Laura Croft. It's just not that kind of game. It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I know it would be hard to implement, it could be made into a LWS, or an expansion, but would be totally worth it. "heroic fantasy" can mean heroic in bad ways as well, heroic when u burn down tyria, heroic when you kill the commander ... Just something that's been on my mind for a very long time.

You dont understand. If you playedvas a bad guy and win then all expansion, dialoges and everything from that point would be completely diferent. Even if you did lose then it couldnt he thae same. All future releses would be affected

You don't really need to win, you know. You could be that heroic evil covert agent fighting those glorified thugs assuming roles of Paladins of Light for your hopeless cause deep behind enemy lines, knowing that you probably have no chance to win that war, yet refusing to put aside your ideals..

And still. From that point on all story chapters ever will have to be diferent.

Why? They can go on as they do, just add a series of side-quests of sort, showing how it all looks like from perspective of the other side of the conflict while they conduct their covert operations all over the Tyria, spreading their influence. It's just supplementary story content, not changing direction of the main story.

Right now there is one path for the commander. Your idea is to add "bad" path. Then either it is doubke the work for developers or no matter your choices it will play out the same. That is bad because then main character doesnt create the path but just rides along

[hugo.4705]

They could have added a fourth path for your character creation with the corresponding racial evil organization but it's too late now. But what they can still do is creating 5 side quests to join those evil orders. At least it would allow us to earn titles like "fanatic of svanir", "mad scientist", "professional rogue", "pain master" or "follower of the flame"

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Shiv.5781 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Also it would be extremly hard to implement it. Especialy for new releses

@"Vayne.8563" said:Guild Wars 1 is 12 years old and we never had the option to be the bad guy there either. Neither did Laura Croft. It's just not that kind of game. It's called Heroic Fantasy for a reason.

I know it would be hard to implement, it could be made into a LWS, or an expansion, but would be totally worth it. "heroic fantasy" can mean heroic in bad ways as well, heroic when u burn down tyria, heroic when you kill the commander ... Just something that's been on my mind for a very long time.

You dont understand. If you playedvas a bad guy and win then all expansion, dialoges and everything from that point would be completely diferent. Even if you did lose then it couldnt he thae same. All future releses would be affected

You don't really need to win, you know. You could be that heroic evil covert agent fighting those glorified thugs assuming roles of Paladins of Light for your hopeless cause deep behind enemy lines, knowing that you probably have no chance to win that war, yet refusing to put aside your ideals..

And still. From that point on all story chapters ever will have to be diferent.

Why? They can go on as they do, just add a series of side-quests of sort, showing how it all looks like from perspective of the other side of the conflict while they conduct their covert operations all over the Tyria, spreading their influence. It's just supplementary story content, not changing direction of the main story.

Right now there is one path for the commander. Your idea is to add "bad" path. Then either it is doubke the work for developers or no matter your choices it will play out the same. That is bad because then main character doesnt create the path but just rides along

Yes, it's "your choice doesn't matter" kind of deal. Though your choices don't matter in main campaign anyway, whatever you do, the result is the same, how is it different? At that moment, most of GW2 players have seen all story episodes, some of them many times, on different characters. I personally don't see any reason to re-play it on other characters at all. So it would be nice to have some another, different story unfolding in parallel with the main one. You just flip onto the dark side with one of your alts and have a totally different perspective on all those events you have accustomed to look at through anti-dragon propaganda lenses ;)

[coso.9173]

the probem is that all new content is linked (storywise) to what's already happened. so it would be weird to try to safe the world countless times making great friends helping you out in the way, only to then become "evil".it's not like in ESO when each DLC isn't really the continuation of the previous one, and we have things like the dark brotherhood DLC that lets us being a cold blooded murderer.

[Erasculio.2914]

Probably the closest we can get to being "evil" is choosing to ally with Joko on the Blazing a Trail story step, during PoF's main storyline. I see few people with the Banners of Joko.

The thing is, GW2's storyline is not about a blank space that we fill with whatever we want. It's about our character, sure, but our character is given something of a personality based on their spoken dialogue and on the way they act.

Many RPGs are like that - see The Witcher 3, for example. In that game, the player has some options to change the story here and there, but the main character's personality is set in stone, and there are things he will not do (like just murder innocent people).

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@"coso.9173" said:the probem is that all new content is linked (storywise) to what's already happened. so it would be weird to try to safe the world countless times making great friends helping you out in the way, only to then become "evil".it's not like in ESO when each DLC isn't really the continuation of the previous one, and we have things like the dark brotherhood DLC that lets us being a cold blooded murderer.

As said above, you can do story on any of your alts. So one of your alt could jump to evil side early on, even before becoming a commander. That would be sort of plot split - you choose it and from now on you can do only "evil" side stories. It's not an issue if those mission will end long before the main story will end, as most people won't do main story on all their alts anyway. You'll just use some expendable alt of yours to see those extra story missions.

[luzonophir.7134]

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

Victor's write history. Had kitten won, things would be told much differently.

Also, couldn't you assume we already were villains in PoF? We killed Balthazar because he wanted to kill Kralkitorik and we didn't like that, then we turn right around and start OUR campaign to kill Kralkitorik. Balthazar did not seem like he wanted to use the power obsorbed by that to destroy, or enslave the planet (but who knows). I guess we're mostly just hypocrites.

Edit: kitten= late 1940s German leader, which is apparently considered a bad word. Not as if his name could ever be used in an educational, or informative nature, not just used to belittle someone.

Austrian, not German.

[Klowdy.3126]

@luzonophir.7134 said:

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

Victor's write history. Had kitten won, things would be told much differently.

Also, couldn't you assume we already were villains in PoF? We killed Balthazar because he wanted to kill Kralkitorik and we didn't like that, then we turn right around and start OUR campaign to kill Kralkitorik. Balthazar did not seem like he wanted to use the power obsorbed by that to destroy, or enslave the planet (but who knows). I guess we're mostly just hypocrites.

Edit: kitten= late 1940s German leader, which is apparently considered a bad word. Not as if his name could ever be used in an educational, or informative nature, not just used to belittle someone.

Austrian, not German.

He was born in as Austria, but was chancellor of Germany, then made fuhrer, and ruled over Na** Germany. I was saying he was the leader of Germany, not that he was born there.

[Leo G.4501]

@"coso.9173" said:the probem is that all new content is linked (storywise) to what's already happened. so it would be weird to try to safe the world countless times making great friends helping you out in the way, only to then become "evil".it's not like in ESO when each DLC isn't really the continuation of the previous one, and we have things like the dark brotherhood DLC that lets us being a cold blooded murderer.

And why couldn't that be the case here?

It's kind of funny to see people with ideas but they just sit on them and make assumptions like "it can't be done" or "it's too much work" or "no one would want that" only to have someone else swoop in with the same idea and take your glory.

Perhaps we're not all in agreement in what is desired in this thread. I assumed it's rolling the ball on possible varied PvE content, this one focused more on stories. I think the game has people thinking in a box that everything that tells a story has to be in continuity and relevance to the main plot. But there are plenty of posters all expressing fatigue or some firm of indifference to the main plot or just a desire to expand on other elements of the world.

[coso.9173]

i'm not saying it can't be done, and i really don't mean to rai on your parade either. I'm just saying it would be harder than in other games, because in here there's a main story that goes along all new content, unlike other games, where every DLC has it's own storyline unrelated to what happened before.everything can be done, it only needs to be important enough for the developpers. :)

[Ashen.2907]

@"Abraxxus.8971" said:A few months ago I came up with a story of our characters going bad. It went something like this...LW4E6: With Aurene gone, Kralk takes control of Caithe. We have to kill Caithe and that drives our character over the edge. We throw the "natural balance" to the wind and kill Kralkatorrik, taking his power for our own. Now with the power of Kralk, Zhaitan, Mordy, and Balth, we decide we are going to "fix" the world. We crush Elona under our heel and take control of the desert. Then we look towards Tyria. In a pincer attack, the Forged and Branded attack from the east, The Mordrem attack from the west, and the Risen attack from the south, and we conquor all of Tyria and start the Dark Rule. *My story: After conquoring the world, I would call Ceara back from the mists and I would take her as my queen as we ruled Tyria forever....FOREVER!...

Ands thats why i don't write for Arenanet.

An opportunity to kill Caithe would be welcome but I dont see how giving her well earned justice would push anyone over an edge.

[luzonophir.7134]

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@luzonophir.7134 said:

@Klowdy.3126 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Trise.2865 said:The problem is, there is no benefit to being evil in this world. Not for dime-a-dozen mooks like you/us.

You, my friend, need to start thinking like a villain.

I am. That's how I know how common all of you are. Mook.

Nah, that's a common mook response. Villains have ambition and don't readily fall rank n' file behind the status quo. My qualifications for a villain is, you can't often tell the difference between one and a hero if context is removed.

Then there's no difference at all, which means it doesn't matter.

Besides, what's more villainous than using my position of privilege (I already have what I want) to deny yours?

Victor's write history. Had kitten won, things would be told much differently.

Also, couldn't you assume we already were villains in PoF? We killed Balthazar because he wanted to kill Kralkitorik and we didn't like that, then we turn right around and start OUR campaign to kill Kralkitorik. Balthazar did not seem like he wanted to use the power obsorbed by that to destroy, or enslave the planet (but who knows). I guess we're mostly just hypocrites.

Edit: kitten= late 1940s German leader, which is apparently considered a bad word. Not as if his name could ever be used in an educational, or informative nature, not just used to belittle someone.

Austrian, not German.

He was born in as Austria, but was chancellor of Germany, then made fuhrer, and ruled over Na** Germany. I was saying he was the leader of Germany, not that he was born there.

but technically Austrian. Austrian Parents, born on Austrian soil, went to Germany to disgrace and dishonor Germany's reputation.