Deadeye... what were they thinking?!

[Solori.6025]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Solori.6025 said:I agree, it's very very difficult to dodge in zerg or group play, and like I said in the other thread, I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.( funny thought actually, you could just let someone else take the hit for you.....like casually move around the ele and let them take the bullet so to speak....I swear I dont do this to people.........)

There are several things they COULD do to balance things a little more, on top of things that SHOULD be done. For example. Malice stacks should be applied ONLY by the thief attacking his marked target, this passive idea is moronic! Then make it so it has a reasonable ICD between you can get the next stack. Death Judgement needs a BIG nerf when it comes to WvW and PvP, seeing hits 1shot people without him even using the Mark on him first or anything

Problem with that is that it makes thief little or more the same with a modifier you cant get because the shots dont pierce, equalling out to subpar damage for the trade off of subpar or limited mobility.

Secondly, with the right set up you could one shot someone from melee with BS, just requires you to be in melee range

An idea i had was that you cant use if you have reveal, so means you wont be able to use it back to back doing like 20k+ damage in the blink of an eye. Make it so that if used in stealth then you fire the shot, then get revealed. in WvW and PvP the damage increase per a stack should be reduced, a lot! Id say even taking it down to 5% would be enough as that would still be 35% (when traited) 105% increase (traited) is simply too much. because you add in the Malice stacks increase and that would be like closing in on 130% damage increase without using anything other than a weapon and Deadeye.

This wouldn't work simply because DJ reveals you, on top of that the elite removes revealed soooo...

A better, and more practical solution would be to lower the bonus damage per malice stack on the skill itself to 7% per stack ( it's currently 15%) and then balance from their.

Being one shot from range sucks I agree.But nerfing a single class to oblivion with the amount of power creep going on right now is a little unfair no?

[Zoltreez.6435]

so why is that the moment a Thief cant dodge roll around like Poh and Jump around like Yoda while evading 80% of the stuff while also blinking in and out of freaking reality and killing people in 1 vs 2 people think that the class is bad ????

[Zoltreez.6435]

@gebrechen.5643 said:Thief really needs an additional faceroll build in wvw.

againts Necros its actualy a prety good Faceroll build....

[ugrakarma.9416]

i cant remeber my mark against other players, but other day i did 28k on boss lol.

[Sylvyn.4750]

@Solori.6025 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Solori.6025 said:to be fair it's a highly telegraphed projectile you could just dodge though :open_mouth:

Yeah dodge that in group fights and zergs, hell i have 3k armor and im STILL taking 5k auto attacks. The Malice design was very poor. Passively gaining it wasnt a good idea. You can it too quickly as well considering you get damage increase on ALL attacks. They basically now have huge burst from range and huge burst from melee. There is no doubt it will be nerfed. The question will be how many months will they wait and knowing them, its either going to be overnerfed or barely a scratch to what needs to be done.

I agree, it's very very difficult to dodge in zerg or group play, and like I said in the other thread, I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.( funny thought actually, you could just let someone else take the hit for you.....like casually move around the ele and let them take the bullet so to speak....I swear I dont do this to people.........)

In a properly balanced group, a variety of retaliation, protection, heals, barriers and/or projectile shields have a high uptime anyway...deadeye is not an issue if that is the case.

[ugrakarma.9416]

zerk+runes of trapper+trapper reduction trait, the DE is perfect sniper camper. but i find range still too short.... sit, camp, spam traps with low CD.

[babazhook.6805]

As time has gone on and I continue to practice with this I have learned taken more and more stealth sources increases my effectiveness. Trapper runes work good here as can Infiltrators. You do not use stealth JUST to set up your next attack but to move on the map with hidden thief and reset.

In my power build all Utilities from 6-10 provide stealth outside SOA. The elite is two sources. In my condition build all the utilities provide stealth with the elite providing one extra. I really think SA becomes more important then trickery here so if you MUST choose between the two grin and bear it as you drop TR. That said DE SA and TR does work if willing to take a bit of a hit to damage.

I am obviously talking the DE spec going Rifle. If using other sets that much stealth is not needed. I think once I refine tactics a bit more I can drop one stealth source for something else.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

[kash.9213]

@babazhook.6805 said:I really think SA becomes more important then trickery here so if you MUST choose between the two grin and bear it as you drop TR. That said DE SA and TR does work if willing to take a bit of a hit to damage.

Aside from Initiative you're not feeling the loss of Lead Attacks? I can almost get used to not relying on Steal as an interrupt since it's not instant with Mark anyway but it feels like anything apart from DA,Trick,DE has too long of a kill time. I sort of felt like I was doing something with SA,Trick,DE by mostly boon sniping and spreading stuff around with Peripheral Vision. It was alright along with S/D and Spellbreaker runes up front using rifle as utility like shortbow for stealth attack and Deaths Retreat. The rest of the stuff on rifle is really kind of redundant for the initiative cost and I'm switching to sword in a second anyway once they're on me.

If I build to make Silent Scope worth it, I'm going to get wrecked Kneeling anyway. I feel more like a spotter than the shooter but team stuff is kind of fun.

[babazhook.6805]

@kash.9213 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:I really think SA becomes more important then trickery here so if you MUST choose between the two grin and bear it as you drop TR. That said DE SA and TR does work if willing to take a bit of a hit to damage.

Aside from Initiative you're not feeling the loss of Lead Attacks? I can almost get used to not relying on Steal as an interrupt since it's not instant with Mark anyway but it feels like anything apart from DA,Trick,DE has too long of a kill time. I sort of felt like I was doing something with SA,Trick,DE by mostly boon sniping and spreading stuff around with Peripheral Vision. It was alright along with S/D and Spellbreaker runes up front using rifle as utility like shortbow for stealth attack and Deaths Retreat. The rest of the stuff on rifle is really kind of redundant for the initiative cost and I'm switching to sword in a second anyway once they're on me.

If I build to make Silent Scope worth it, I'm going to get wrecked Kneeling anyway. I feel more like a spotter than the shooter but team stuff is kind of fun.

Well the way I figure it the longer I am able to stay in a battle the more damage i can do even if I do not get those huge spikes. Stealth allows me to get on much more offensive Gear and i went back and forth dropping SA for TR, DA, and CS in various combinations and kept finding I really needed that SA so as to allow me more stealth and survival. The Combination of iron sights, Shadows resilience and either CiS(No crits when you are stealthed can be applied!) or Rejuv just gives so much sustain.

In WvW I would be rezzing a downed frined while stealthed even as an enemy cleaving away and shrugging off a great chunk of damage. When I do stealth the enemy does like to cleave that area. Where I really noticed this was when I used SR a few times and had enemy Daredevil thieves cleaving in all directions. The hits did little.Do this with protection running and you can even set up a kneel DJ as that guy cleaving you.

I found in dropping Trickery i could take CS and with Twin Fangs and the added ferosity more then made up for the damage loss of lead attacks. Granted one could go CS, DE and TR but I found it much harder to survive in that build AND I was gtting off less attacks overall because I had to pick up and leave or try and avoid damage more often via ports or flight.

[Rangerdeity.5847]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

LB ranger is a joke in zergs.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

LB ranger is a joke in zergs.

Thank you for echoing.

[Justine.6351]

Now I'm going to have to work on a barrage spammer build for zerging. Portable crippling arrow cart!

[Rangerdeity.5847]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

LB ranger is a joke in zergs.

Thank you for echoing.

meanwhile deadeyes are a terrifying monster in zergs. thus your comment is just assinine at best.

[RisingDaewn.8703]

Rifle is absolutely clunky right now, and trading Mobility for more range, when infact, that's the least you need in something like WvW, where mobility makes thieves so strong while roaming (or even scouting), obviously they are still useless in zergs, because of all the AOE.

Rifle is a poor choice of main weapon, unless you're sniping something that's distracted, even they you'll probably die from trying to keep in range to actually hit something.

[Solori.6025]

@Sylvyn.4750 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Solori.6025 said:to be fair it's a highly telegraphed projectile you could just dodge though :open_mouth:

Yeah dodge that in group fights and zergs, hell i have 3k armor and im STILL taking 5k auto attacks. The Malice design was very poor. Passively gaining it wasnt a good idea. You can it too quickly as well considering you get damage increase on ALL attacks. They basically now have huge burst from range and huge burst from melee. There is no doubt it will be nerfed. The question will be how many months will they wait and knowing them, its either going to be overnerfed or barely a scratch to what needs to be done.

I agree, it's very very difficult to dodge in zerg or group play, and like I said in the other thread, I honestly don't know what to tell you about that.( funny thought actually, you could just let someone else take the hit for you.....like casually move around the ele and let them take the bullet so to speak....I swear I dont do this to people.........)

In a properly balanced group, a variety of retaliation, protection, heals, barriers and/or projectile shields have a high uptime anyway...deadeye is not an issue if that is the case.

Basilisk Venom. Projectile becomes an unblockable monster, the only thing you will be able to do to defend against it is dodge or go invuln , and not every class can do so.

A good, DE will wait out dodges, then strike

And in a group v group, I would hope you aren't focused on finding the DE when you have scourge aoes, CC's, and thunderdomes to worry about.Thus why they shine really well in 4v4+

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Solori.6025 said:to be fair it's a highly telegraphed projectile you could just dodge though :open_mouth:

Yeah dodge that in group fights and zergs, hell i have 3k armor and im STILL taking 5k auto attacks. The Malice design was very poor. Passively gaining it wasnt a good idea. You can it too quickly as well considering you get damage increase on ALL attacks. They basically now have huge burst from range and huge burst from melee. There is no doubt it will be nerfed. The question will be how many months will they wait and knowing them, its either going to be overnerfed or barely a scratch to what needs to be done.

But it's fine taking 10k+ cor (wich is more telegrpahed and muktiple hit) in zerg fights though but not DJ ?

[Rangerdeity.5847]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Sylvyn.4750 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Solori.6025 said:to be fair it's a highly telegraphed projectile you could just dodge though :open_mouth:And in a group v group, I would hope you aren't focused on finding the DE when you have scourge aoes, CC's, and thunderdomes to worry about.Thus why they shine really well in 4v4+

this is exactly why its so powerful in teams. you can sit back at the back of the back line. and still manage to eliminate the tankiest player in the enemy team.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

LB ranger is a joke in zergs.

Thank you for echoing.

meanwhile deadeyes are a terrifying monster in zergs. thus your comment is just assinine at best.

And yet whatever they can do, LB Ranger can do better.

[Cerby.1069]

meanwhile most are you forgetting there is something called gunflame that has been 1 to 2 shotting people for years, and yet its not even considered in any of the meta for any mode. maybe the conversation should start there.

the whole deadeye line is just there for utility. its not replacing any of the existing meta.....its simply creating different methods from which to arrive at the same conclusions. from that perspective, i think the entire line is great!

it doesnt seek to replace anything already existing in the class. i mean how often can you say that in this game?

[chronometria.3708]

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Rangerdeity.5847 said:Deadeye works better in zergs your the ultimate down finisher and the ultimate deletion of problem enemies. not everything thiefs do need to be focused on roaming.

Except that LB Ranger does that better and is considered useless.

LB ranger is a joke in zergs.

Thank you for echoing.

meanwhile deadeyes are a terrifying monster in zergs. thus your comment is just assinine at best.

If deadeye had piercing on its decent attacks, then maybe it would be a monster, but as it is, most of them can be blocked by a rangers pet. A zerg fight is no place for a deadeye because they just cant hit anything they are aiming at.

[Solori.6025]

@Cerby.1069 said:meanwhile most are you forgetting there is something called gunflame that has been 1 to 2 shotting people for years,

I would be very surprised if you could link a gunflame hit for 15-20k in this current meta.With the nerfs to berserker I find it a little far fetchedSecondly, if you recall when gunflame was in fact one shotting people it took them a couple of days to patch the damage away.So you can see a patternNo one likes to be hit from ranged for an attack that essentially oneshots themEven when LB rangers became a thing with rapid fire, that was also nerfed because people didn't like the concept of being killed from ranged by an attack that had the potential to hit above 10k ( and also required multiple buffs to become obscene)

Pretending that Deadeye is going to be immune to that same treatmentNo matter how obvious the animation, tell, or setup is.Is a completely illogical.

Anet has a track record and it has been consistent, I honestly don't see them NOT lowering the damageMy hope is that they don't go overboard and completely kill the weapon like the have a tendency to do

If deadeye had piercing on its decent attacks, then maybe it would be a monster, but as it is, most of them can be blocked by a rangers pet. A zerg fight is no place for a deadeye because they just cant hit anything they are aiming at.

Doesn't really need to pierce if you can for sure down someone in one hit (which is what thief does but now from a safer distance than melee range)Pets become a non-issue when you are picking people off from the back, as most rangers are either running soulbeast now with NO pet, or the pet is off in some random engagement in the front line.

Ranger's are also not that big of an issue unless their are multiple rangers pin sniping , and that is one thing they are really good at, but a group of revs with CoR do it better and have less of a chance getting their shots reflected while reaping the benefits of a multistrike attack.But that is a different debate.

In zerg v zerg (lets say 20+) to say that a ranger would be better at picking off targets from a zerg is pretty far fetched, considering that most Daredevils would end up killing the ranger as soon as they moved away from the group. ( especially if they are going full glass to compete with an attack that can hit for 15k+ back to back)

The thing the deadeye has that a ranger doesnt is a sure fire way to change positions with no wandering eye tracking their movements until the DJ launches, then it's a game of which thief is better at being a thief. ( or which pick team is better)

When we talk about the place of a thief in a group v group battle I assume that everyone is talking about the roles that a class would be good at and fulfilling,Thief has always been good at picking classes, DE is just another way to do that from a much safer distance, with an attack that can do a little more from range than it's melee counterpart without the requirement of restealthing to hit its big damaging attack ( stealth is required however for positioning for the class to be effective)

With that in mind, in a zerg v zerg fight where the thief is fulfilling the role that has been pretty much imprinted on the class since it's creation. I do not think a ranger would be better at fulfilling the role of a thief, or being able to terrorize the group to the point where a thief can at this moment.

Now if rangers had a way to reset the buffs they get on kill and then rebuild those buffs every 10-15secondsthen maybe the argument of "LB rangers do it better" might hold true

[MedievalThings.5417]

I would like to think that (given previous nerfs) Anet would step in and tone down the damage on death's judgement, but I don't really think they will (cause thief) They are fine with thieves just dodging and hitting for aoe 6k-8k. They are fine with sword thief being able to ignore terrain/walls/LOS and just keep teleporting in and out of combat. They seem ok with the exploit to get in to red keep in EBG that's been reported for years. They are fine with just about everything that is broken on thief. They MIGHT get around to fixing death's judgement so that the damage bonus is ONLY applied to the marked target, but I'm not holding my breath.

[RisingDaewn.8703]

@Cerby.1069 said:meanwhile most are you forgetting there is something called gunflame that has been 1 to 2 shotting people for years, and yet its not even considered in any of the meta for any mode. maybe the conversation should start there.

the whole deadeye line is just there for utility. its not replacing any of the existing meta.....its simply creating different methods from which to arrive at the same conclusions. from that perspective, i think the entire line is great!

it doesnt seek to replace anything already existing in the class. i mean how often can you say that in this game?

After HoT, it was way more OP than Deadeyes at this moment, a heavy armor ranged class with decent mobility due to swapping w/GS, that could pierce, double hit and had an AOE for about 15k, but gunflame and Dragon Hunters eventually got the nerf hammer in Easter 2016.

[Cerby.1069]

@CrimsonNeonite.1048 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:meanwhile most are you forgetting there is something called gunflame that has been 1 to 2 shotting people for years, and yet its not even considered in any of the meta for any mode. maybe the conversation should start there.

the whole deadeye line is just there for utility. its not replacing any of the existing meta.....its simply creating different methods from which to arrive at the same conclusions. from that perspective, i think the entire line is great!

it doesnt seek to replace anything already existing in the class. i mean how often can you say that in this game?

After HoT, it was way more OP than Deadeyes at this moment, a heavy armor ranged class with decent mobility due to swapping w/GS, that could pierce, double hit and had an AOE for about 15k, but gunflame and Dragon Hunters eventually got the nerf hammer in Easter 2016.

Yes I am very much aware of the nerfs ty very much. I was and continue to be, speaking as a current gunflame user.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Cerby.1069 said:meanwhile most are you forgetting there is something called gunflame that has been 1 to 2 shotting people for years,

I would be very surprised if you could link a gunflame hit for 15-20k in this current meta.With the nerfs to berserker I find it a little far fetchedSecondly, if you recall when gunflame was in fact one shotting people it took them a couple of days to patch the damage away.So you can see a patternNo one likes to be hit from ranged for an attack that essentially oneshots themEven when LB rangers became a thing with rapid fire, that was also nerfed because people didn't like the concept of being killed from ranged by an attack that had the potential to hit above 10k ( and also required multiple buffs to become obscene)

Pretending that Deadeye is going to be immune to that same treatmentNo matter how obvious the animation, tell, or setup is.Is a completely illogical.

Anet has a track record and it has been consistent, I honestly don't see them NOT lowering the damageMy hope is that they don't go overboard and completely kill the weapon like the have a tendency to do

There is something truly alluring to being called illogical by a mesmer.

I can hit that hard and I do hit that hard, ask anyone on ebay server or more specifically those paired with and against us.Noone likes being hit by anything that kills them in under 4 seconds. Its not specific to the proverbial 1shotting. So lets not pretend projectiles deserve to be singled out and left in the waste bin. And the closest I have gotten is 3 shotting.....cause everyone neglects to consider downed state in their =damage should be nerfed= arguments (always takes more damage to kill the downed state).Ranger Longbow aa has hit me for 5k dmg per shot recently on my warrior, (without vulnerability or anything like that on me or beastmaster stuff) so its still a thing.....but YOU dont notice it so its not an issue.....

Thats what my entire, supposedly, illogical argument was saying. That we should be knowledgable about why you arent seeing these things that have and still DO exist.Ill give your investigation a head start tho= its because you have to invest a ridiculous amount of your build, if not all of it, into your damage. THAT is what has made all this stuff okay. So as long as the deadeye has to invest enough to get the numbers, it will be left along cause its okay. warrior rifle damage values literally cannot be nerfed anymore than they are to date, or the rifle itself comes into question as an actual weapon. We cant have certain weapons performing THAT badly in general use situations.