Meta has been stale for too long

[Aeolus.3615]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@RisenHowl.2419

Thread title- “Meta has been stale for too long”

Original comments- “Blame Rev”

New post- “I think power creep is the culprit”

...If you have complaints about Rev then post in the Rev section. Blaming 1 of the 9 professions for the state of the “meta” is rather silly, and we all already know that power creep is a thing...

Xpac specializations and the devs making meaningful changes to professions are what changes and shifts the “meta”.

My suggestion is you rethink your post and come up with solutions to problems you see with the game. But if you are really here to complain about Rev then post your complaints and suggestions in that spot.

Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?

Repeated power creep has caused heralds to edge out every other build, which is why it needs a hefty shave. Besides that, stab access for other classes could be adjusted and purity of purpose should get reworked so only non-damaging conditions get converted to boons.

Herald issue is due u can’t see the CoR animation due all the visual clutter game has, it’s the aoe spam that’s is borking up balance overall in damage and visually, reason why hammer rev is strong, u can’t dosge nor evade what u can’t see...

[zinkz.7045]

A game mode where for zergs guard, necro and rev have basically been perma-meta and make up 75%+ of most zergs, so the idea that there have been "big changes" and things have only now got stale, is well... LOL.

[Swagger.1459]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@RisenHowl.2419

Thread title- “Meta has been stale for too long”

Original comments- “Blame Rev”

New post- “I think power creep is the culprit”

...If you have complaints about Rev then post in the Rev section. Blaming 1 of the 9 professions for the state of the “meta” is rather silly, and we all already know that power creep is a thing...

Xpac specializations and the devs making meaningful changes to professions are what changes and shifts the “meta”.

My suggestion is you rethink your post and come up with solutions to problems you see with the game. But if you are really here to complain about Rev then post your complaints and suggestions in that spot.

Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?

Repeated power creep has caused heralds to edge out every other build, which is why it needs a hefty shave. Besides that, stab access for other classes could be adjusted and purity of purpose should get reworked so only non-damaging conditions get converted to boons.

All professions are part of the “meta”. Take your complaints to the Rev section.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?

Repeated power creep has caused heralds to edge out every other build, which is why it needs a hefty shave. Besides that, stab access for other classes could be adjusted and purity of purpose should get reworked so only non-damaging conditions get converted to boons.

I find this a curious statement, since to my knowledge, outside of the changes to F2 for core, what damage increases/changes has Hammer Rev been given in, say, the past 6 months? Why all of a sudden is Rev 'the culprit'?

Also, to my understanding, the post-PoF pirate ship meta always starts and ends with Scourge. Whoever can draw the other into their bomb wins.

Revs are powerful, no argument, but to say that they are the driver behind the meta isn't accurate imo, especially as you say, against "a skilled group". When I use a Phase Smash against a tightly organized group, all I see across my screen is "block". Against a full glass player out of position with no aegis, stab or anyone else to soak up the AoE damage, yeah they are easy meat - but they would be equally easy meat for any other profession.

One thing I have noticed of late, is that Spellbreakers are not being used as often as they should be. Back before ANET reworked winds a billion times, you saw mid sized squads running 2-3 SBs at least - these days you're lucky to get one. Since the relink all the major scraps that went south for me involved the enemy squad using multiple winds, and using them well, to push.

I'm sure in the next patch (is that today?) Revs will be given a nerf, as ANETs balance philosophy seems to be "toss kitten against the wall and see what sticks", in some sort of a round robin fashion. It won't fix anything though, since Rev alone isn't the problem. The meta won't change, players will still keep the same roster of Scourge+Rev, for DPS (unless they re-buff Ele ofc) FB/Scrapper for heals/boons, and Sbreaker + Mes for utility.

When they added the ground circle for Drop the Hammer, I remember thinking "about time, it's only fair given Necro and Ele both have that on their nukes", and I also think it would be fine to add that to Phase Smash, but I also remember thinking "lol, good luck seeing it amidst the red carpet of death". So if the issue is people can't dodge out of a Rev's nukes because of crappy coding, how about they fix that?

[L A T I O N.8923]

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Lol revs hammer may burst for a it to much but they definitely are not to blame for the never ending pirate ship meta, scourge/fb are to blame for that. Kinda hard to push close into zerg when ull be covered by stacks on stacks of scouges condi circle jerk spam surrounded by enemies supported by fb. This results in the predominant ranged zerg battles.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?

Repeated power creep has caused heralds to edge out every other build, which is why it needs a hefty shave. Besides that, stab access for other classes could be adjusted and purity of purpose should get reworked so only non-damaging conditions get converted to boons.

I find this a curious statement, since to my knowledge, outside of the changes to F2 for core, what damage increases/changes has Hammer Rev been given in, say, the past 6 months? Why all of a sudden is Rev 'the culprit'?

Also, to my understanding, the post-PoF pirate ship meta always starts and ends with Scourge. Whoever can draw the other into their bomb wins.

Revs are powerful, no argument, but to say that they are the driver behind the meta isn't accurate imo, especially as you say, against "a skilled group". When I use a Phase Smash against a tightly organized group, all I see across my screen is "block". Against a full glass player out of position with no aegis, stab or anyone else to soak up the AoE damage, yeah they are easy meat - but they would be equally easy meat for any other profession.

One thing I have noticed of late, is that Spellbreakers are not being used as often as they should be. Back before ANET reworked winds a billion times, you saw mid sized squads running 2-3 SBs at least - these days you're lucky to get one. Since the relink all the major scraps that went south for me involved the enemy squad using multiple winds, and using them well, to push.

I'm sure in the next patch (is that today?) Revs will be given a nerf, as ANETs balance philosophy seems to be "toss kitten against the wall and see what sticks", in some sort of a round robin fashion. It won't fix anything though, since Rev alone isn't the problem. The meta won't change, players will still keep the same roster of Scourge+Rev, for DPS (unless they re-buff Ele ofc) FB/Scrapper for heals/boons, and Sbreaker + Mes for utility.

When they added the ground circle for Drop the Hammer, I remember thinking "about time, it's only fair given Necro and Ele both have that on their nukes", and I also think it would be fine to add that to Phase Smash, but I also remember thinking "lol, good luck seeing it amidst the red carpet of death". So if the issue is people can't dodge out of a Rev's nukes because of crappy coding, how about they fix that?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

OK, but the patch notes you link are from October 2018...that's 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing all these posts asking for nerfs in December 2018, shortly after those changes were made.

Targeted destruction was also changed again in March, requiring the target has at least 20 stacks of vulnerability before offering the same damage (2.5% more damage at 25 stacks though)

It also doesn't jive with this notion I keep seeing expressed that people turn a corner, see a Rev, and then immediately eat 16K in damage. Those numbers are completely attainable, but there is a ramp up process to get there (albeit a rather short one). Anyone who plays a Rev knows this.

I'm not arguing against Rev damage eating a nerf, it's going to happen whether it deserves it or not, because ANET, but again my question, why all of a sudden is Rev an issue?

[Justine.6351]

Rofl. Remove revs and the next thing that replaces it will be the target of "I died to damage, nerf it! " type threads as well. Maybe we should all roll firebrand so nobody ever dies again.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

OK, but the patch notes you link are from October 2018...that's 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing all these posts asking for nerfs in December 2018, shortly after those changes were made.

Targeted destruction was also changed again in March, requiring the target has at least 20 stacks of vulnerability before offering the same damage (2.5% more damage at 25 stacks though)

It also doesn't jive with this notion I keep seeing expressed that people turn a corner, see a Rev, and then immediately eat 16K in damage. Those numbers are completely attainable, but there is a ramp up process to get there (albeit a rather short one). Anyone who plays a Rev knows this.

I'm not arguing against Rev damage eating a nerf, it's going to happen whether it deserves it or not, because ANET, but again my question, why all of a sudden is Rev an issue?

People have been asking for Rev nerfs for the last 6mo, use the forum search.

You might be misunderstanding people then =/. The issue is when you randomly explode because two invisible cors or phase smashes hit you at the same time. If you're in 1200 range of the enemy blob, you often just drop with no indication. Rev hammer just has too much damage with really short cds and no tell, it's what has been driving the pirate ship meta we're stuck in.

@"Justine.6351" said:Rofl. Remove revs and the next thing that replaces it will be the target of "I died to damage, nerf it! " type threads as well. Maybe we should all roll firebrand so nobody ever dies again.

Who said anything about removing revs? Again: you can increase hammer cds by 50%, drop damage by 20%, and give them visible tells. It would still be the best damage dealer in wvw. That needs to be addressed unless you're really looking forward to another year of pirate shipping?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?That's pretty easy to help you with.

What's keeps the meta pirate ship is that crowd control trumphs free movement (in more detail: that rips are greater than stability along with hard control like fear and pull).

The problem with all of that balance-wise is that range classes always have a role in a melee meta (clouding) whereas melee classes rarely have roles in a range meta (a good example of that is that even though WoD is still very powerful, many commanders shy away from using SB's, only use them defensively or leave them to fend for themselves as suicide bubblers; or that if you want to setup a personal melee approach under a range meta it takes much more resources in terms of composing parties for it, so it is far more rare to see players even attempt to pull off, leading to few successful havoc/focus groups).

So in the overall balance of things, if one was to err on the side of caution they would generally favour movement over control. Not only is that more fun for all players since they actually get to play the game and control their own characters but also because melee metas are far more inclusive and in that has more of a margin in tolerable balance for classes and makes it easier to form private- or impromptu subgroups (ie., initiative, constructive, positive, social-building encouragement that can lead to more player-organisation and content-creation).

Edit

In fact, that last bit is yet another reason as to why ranged metas become more exclusive, because even if you were to organize your own subgroup/party, it is far easier to do that as ranged in a ranged meta too - so the barrier of entry is lower, it is less demanding and in many cases can easily be at least as rewarding (for example, compare off-parties based around either warriors, daredevils or, for fun let's say, rangers [or just say revs]). Warriors require more specific support to be effective, daredevils are so unique in what they do (that it is hard to play anything else with them and if they choose some support that is even more specialized) so by comparison it is much easier to compose a party based around ranged off-classes since any mix and match of similar classes works.

 

[RisenHowl.2419]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?That's pretty easy to help you with.

What's keeps the meta pirate ship is that crowd control trumphs free movement (in more detail: that rips are greater than stability along with hard control like fear and pull).

The problem with all of that balance-wise is that range classes always have a role in a melee meta (clouding) whereas melee classes rarely have roles in a range meta (a good example of that is that even though WoD is still very powerful, many commanders shy away from using SB's, only use them defensively or leave them to fend for themselves as suicide bubblers; or that if you want to setup a personal melee approach under a range meta it takes much more resources in terms of composing parties for it, so it is far more rare to see players even attempt to pull off, leading to few successful havoc/focus groups).

So in the overall balance of things, if one was to err on the side of caution they would generally favour movement over control. Not only is that more fun for all players since they actually get to play the game and control their own characters but also because melee metas are far more inclusive and in that has more of a margin in tolerable balance for classes and makes it easier to form private- or impromptu subgroups (ie., initiative, constructive, positive, social-building encouragement that can lead to more player-organisation and content-creation).

Guess who has ranged CC with a 15s cd? Herald.

They also outrange scourge, so if your group plays well you can chunk the enemy group at 1200 range and ignore their scourges completely. No scourge, no stab rip. If either group closes so the scourges can bomb, you turtle with bulwark+prot+aegis+dwarf and reposition. Repeat until the enemy group is small enough to one push. Who are you even getting pulled by at 1200 range? The one chronomancer some guild groups run? Does your group not run stab?

What class keeps it the current range meta? Herald.

What's really fun is they can do melee range just fine too, quickness+staff 5 shreds stability if you run brutality and it's not like glint/staff has bad damage.

Elemental blast has a 1.15 modifier and ticks 3 times, burst of strength has a 1.25 modifier x2, chaotic release has a 2.0, staff 2 has a 1.5, staff 5 has 3.24.

All great power modifiers on a class with abundant access to more % damage modifiers, better fury access, and better might uptime than any other class by a wide margin.

Shit, you can just run in with jalis active. I've had inspiring reinforcement hit for 6k. On a skill that shouldn't even deal damage! There's a reason revs can afk on lords and just AA with vengeful hammers up, they don't need to do anything else to get top damage.

[Justine.6351]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

OK, but the patch notes you link are from October 2018...that's 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing all these posts asking for nerfs in December 2018, shortly after those changes were made.

Targeted destruction was also changed again in March, requiring the target has at least 20 stacks of vulnerability before offering the same damage (2.5% more damage at 25 stacks though)

It also doesn't jive with this notion I keep seeing expressed that people turn a corner, see a Rev, and then immediately eat 16K in damage. Those numbers are completely attainable, but there is a ramp up process to get there (albeit a rather short one). Anyone who plays a Rev knows this.

I'm not arguing against Rev damage eating a nerf, it's going to happen whether it deserves it or not, because ANET, but again my question, why all of a sudden is Rev an issue?

People have been asking for Rev nerfs for the last 6mo, use the forum search.

You might be misunderstanding people then =/. The issue is when you randomly explode because two invisible cors or phase smashes hit you at the same time. If you're in 1200 range of the enemy blob, you often just drop with no indication. Rev hammer just has too much damage with really short cds and no tell, it's what has been driving the pirate ship meta we're stuck in.

@"Justine.6351" said:Rofl. Remove revs and the next thing that replaces it will be the target of "I died to damage, nerf it! " type threads as well. Maybe we should all roll firebrand so nobody ever dies again.

Who said anything about removing revs? Again: you can increase hammer cds by 50%, drop damage by 20%, and give them visible tells. It would still be the best damage dealer in wvw. That needs to be addressed unless you're really looking forward to another year of pirate shipping?

They already gutted CoR damage and still people complain about its damage. Gut it again and 6 months from now people will again complain about it. It's amazing how I can play a glass cannon aggressively and still somehow survive other hammer revs. Funny how that works. You know what counters me? Firebrand and scourge. You know what makes a hammer rev do damage? Scourge corrupts.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Justine.6351 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

OK, but the patch notes you link are from October 2018...that's 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing all these posts asking for nerfs in December 2018, shortly after those changes were made.

Targeted destruction was also changed again in March, requiring the target has at least 20 stacks of vulnerability before offering the same damage (2.5% more damage at 25 stacks though)

It also doesn't jive with this notion I keep seeing expressed that people turn a corner, see a Rev, and then immediately eat 16K in damage. Those numbers are completely attainable, but there is a ramp up process to get there (albeit a rather short one). Anyone who plays a Rev knows this.

I'm not arguing against Rev damage eating a nerf, it's going to happen whether it deserves it or not, because ANET, but again my question, why all of a sudden is Rev an issue?

People have been asking for Rev nerfs for the last 6mo, use the forum search.

You might be misunderstanding people then =/. The issue is when you randomly explode because two invisible cors or phase smashes hit you at the same time. If you're in 1200 range of the enemy blob, you often just drop with no indication. Rev hammer just has too much damage with really short cds and no tell, it's what has been driving the pirate ship meta we're stuck in.

@Justine.6351 said:Rofl. Remove revs and the next thing that replaces it will be the target of "I died to damage, nerf it! " type threads as well. Maybe we should all roll firebrand so nobody ever dies again.

Who said anything about removing revs? Again: you can increase hammer cds by 50%, drop damage by 20%, and give them visible tells. It would still be the best damage dealer in wvw. That needs to be addressed unless you're really looking forward to another year of pirate shipping?

They already gutted CoR damage and still people complain about its damage. Gut it again and 6 months from now people will again complain about it. It's amazing how I can play a glass cannon aggressively and still somehow survive other hammer revs. Funny how that works. You know what counters me? Firebrand and scourge. You know what makes a hammer rev do damage? Scourge corrupts.

Really? When. An invisible 1200 range aoe that still hits for 2/3rds most players health doesn't sound like something that's been 'gutted'. You want gutted, look at dhuumfire.

No, it's not funny. You can survive on a Rev just fine by rotating staff 3/5 and glint heal. Total damage immunity on a full zerker death machine. That you can play it 100% safely as glass just shows how badly the class is balanced. Try playing a glass necro if you want to flex.

[crepuscular.9047]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

rev is a 1 hit wonder, De is basically a hidden gatling gun, take you down with 2 consecutive hits out from nowhere

i can bet there are more deaths from pewpew de, pewpew ranger, scourage bombers than rev's hammer

[RisenHowl.2419]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

rev is a 1 hit wonder, De is basically a hidden gatling gun, take you down with 2 consecutive hits out from nowhere

i can bet there are more deaths from pewpew de, pewpew ranger, scourage bombers than rev's hammer

I seriously doubt that man, Rev hammer bombs are the #1 cause of death in every zerg fight. 90% of the time I die and check the log, it's a rev =/

They're killing 50 at a time while roamers are picking off 2-3 lol

[LetoII.3782]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

You can create and play some really solid side builds, but if you're skilled enough to play them competitively you could just play a scourge or rev and provide a bigger benefit

Ahhh, see now if you'd put that in the description of your side builds I'd have given you a thumbs up instead of flak.

[Justine.6351]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/56766/game-update-notes-october-2-2018#latest

Probably the worst offender, added 250 power and made another 9% damage modifier available to hammer

The glowing red circles for Scourge was a bad call, I don't care if a Scourge bomb hits me because it does half what the invisible Rev bomb does

They could add a huge visible tell to hammer skills, increase the cds to 6/12/20, and lower the damage by 20% and Herald would remain bis for ranged damage. Class needs some heavy shaves =/

OK, but the patch notes you link are from October 2018...that's 9 months ago. I don't recall seeing all these posts asking for nerfs in December 2018, shortly after those changes were made.

Targeted destruction was also changed again in March, requiring the target has at least 20 stacks of vulnerability before offering the same damage (2.5% more damage at 25 stacks though)

It also doesn't jive with this notion I keep seeing expressed that people turn a corner, see a Rev, and then immediately eat 16K in damage. Those numbers are completely attainable, but there is a ramp up process to get there (albeit a rather short one). Anyone who plays a Rev knows this.

I'm not arguing against Rev damage eating a nerf, it's going to happen whether it deserves it or not, because ANET, but again my question, why all of a sudden is Rev an issue?

People have been asking for Rev nerfs for the last 6mo, use the forum search.

You might be misunderstanding people then =/. The issue is when you randomly explode because two invisible cors or phase smashes hit you at the same time. If you're in 1200 range of the enemy blob, you often just drop with no indication. Rev hammer just has too much damage with really short cds and no tell, it's what has been driving the pirate ship meta we're stuck in.

@Justine.6351 said:Rofl. Remove revs and the next thing that replaces it will be the target of "I died to damage, nerf it! " type threads as well. Maybe we should all roll firebrand so nobody ever dies again.

Who said anything about removing revs? Again: you can increase hammer cds by 50%, drop damage by 20%, and give them visible tells. It would still be the best damage dealer in wvw. That needs to be addressed unless you're really looking forward to another year of pirate shipping?

They already gutted CoR damage and still people complain about its damage. Gut it again and 6 months from now people will again complain about it. It's amazing how I can play a glass cannon aggressively and still somehow survive other hammer revs. Funny how that works. You know what counters me? Firebrand and scourge. You know what makes a hammer rev do damage? Scourge corrupts.

Really? When. An invisible 1200 range aoe that still hits for 2/3rds most players health doesn't sound like something that's been 'gutted'. You want gutted, look at dhuumfire.

No, it's not funny. You can survive on a Rev just fine by rotating staff 3/5 and glint heal. Total damage immunity on a full zerker death machine. That you can play it 100% safely as glass just shows how badly the class is balanced. Try playing a glass necro if you want to flex.

Try face tanking on a glass rev...

[Justine.6351]

The whole premise of this thread is just lol...

Damage players dealing the killing damage. Shock and awe. Then they turn around and complain when we get unkillable fb/scourge balls that just run everyone over. I mean look what happened to staff ele lol, practically deleted from wvw with a few damage nerfs.

Maybe it's time for me to learn how to play scourge idk,

1234567890f1f2f3f4f573j3brufff111111fsu27dhe7qq11q2gdhw8ehdhfffff1111w82gs0q0ffffffffffff

[subversiontwo.7501]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Alright, enlighten me. What keeps wvw's meta a pirate ship if it isn't heralds?That's pretty easy to help you with.

What's keeps the meta pirate ship is that crowd control trumphs free movement (in more detail: that rips are greater than stability along with hard control like fear and pull).

The problem with all of that balance-wise is that range classes always have a role in a melee meta (clouding) whereas melee classes rarely have roles in a range meta (a good example of that is that even though WoD is still very powerful, many commanders shy away from using SB's, only use them defensively or leave them to fend for themselves as suicide bubblers; or that if you want to setup a personal melee approach under a range meta it takes much more resources in terms of composing parties for it, so it is far more rare to see players even attempt to pull off, leading to few successful havoc/focus groups).

So in the overall balance of things, if one was to err on the side of caution they would generally favour movement over control. Not only is that more fun for all players since they actually get to play the game and control their own characters but also because melee metas are far more inclusive and in that has more of a margin in tolerable balance for classes and makes it easier to form private- or impromptu subgroups (ie., initiative, constructive, positive, social-building encouragement that can lead to more player-organisation and content-creation).

Guess who has ranged CC with a 15s cd? Herald.

They also outrange scourge, so if your group plays well you can chunk the enemy group at 1200 range and ignore their scourges completely. No scourge, no stab rip. If either group closes so the scourges can bomb, you turtle with bulwark+prot+aegis+dwarf and reposition. Repeat until the enemy group is small enough to one push. Who are you even getting pulled by at 1200 range? The one chronomancer some guild groups run? Does your group not run stab?

What class keeps it the current range meta? Herald.

What's really fun is they can do melee range just fine too, quickness+staff 5 shreds stability if you run brutality and it's not like glint/staff has bad damage.

Elemental blast has a 1.15 modifier and ticks 3 times, burst of strength has a 1.25 modifier x2, chaotic release has a 2.0, staff 2 has a 1.5, staff 5 has 3.24.

All great power modifiers on a class with abundant access to more % damage modifiers, better fury access, and better might uptime than any other class by a wide margin.

kitten, you can just run in with jalis active. I've had inspiring reinforcement hit for 6k. On a skill that shouldn't even deal damage! There's a reason revs can afk on lords and just AA with vengeful hammers up, they don't need to do anything else to get top damage.

I don't think you'll find many people here that wouldn't agree with you that the class is overtuned in several ways (as are most classes when it comes to modifiers and stacking) but it is not the class that defines the meta. Those are two separate things.

The meta enables the Rev to shine but it is not the class that upholds the meta. In fact, you're even right in pointing to that should the meta shift more towards melee the Rev would remain a strong class there too with all that it can do. It's not like melee parties wouldn't want Revs. However, the same thing would apply there, the Rev wouldn't necessarily be the class that defines and maintains such a meta. It would just be a class that shines alot within it.

Again, the whole thing is really simple. Take away the Rev and you will still see boring pirate ships. Take away the Scourge and you will see melee trains becomming far more successful and popular than they are today. Even if you doubled up on your Rev stacks you wouldn't keep the meta ranged. Those melee trains would have Revs running in them, possibly both one and two.

Meta is generally not dictated by class but rather by specific mechanics and balances of those mechanics. Again, rips trumphing stab and thus control trumphing free-ranging mobility is what maintains the meta we have now. Even if Revs have both rips and stuns they do not have sufficient amounts of it to stem a melee tide. That is also why they are not primarily played as rippers or controllers now - you tend to build them around damage as things stand.

People have a tendency to conflict these things, assuming that meta or normative player behaviour is primarily dictated by classes or what classes are overpowered. These are separate things, what classes are overpowered at are other isolated problems, not less important than what shapes meta, but not shaping meta per definition.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

rev is a 1 hit wonder, De is basically a hidden gatling gun, take you down with 2 consecutive hits out from nowhere

i can bet there are more deaths from pewpew de, pewpew ranger, scourage bombers than rev's hammer

We talk about groupfight meta, not your individual failure to break Line of sight

[Clownmug.8357]

This topic is like someone listening to an orchestra and saying the cymbal players carried the performance.

[crepuscular.9047]

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

rev is a 1 hit wonder, De is basically a hidden gatling gun, take you down with 2 consecutive hits out from nowhere

i can bet there are more deaths from pewpew de, pewpew ranger, scourage bombers than rev's hammer

We talk about groupfight meta, not your individual failure to break Line of sight

I play all of them, hammer rev is completely nothing in group fights, 99% of the time is completed absorbed by barriers and heals

scourge bomb + firebrand combo is way for toxic in the current meta in group fights

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:snip

Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't know how often you play Rev in a group setting, but for me, that's about 75% of my WvW game play, and I'm not seeing what you are seeing.

Firstly, generally speaking, you're not going to run Brutality because Swift Termination is part of what makes Rev so effective at finishing off downs. Typically the Scourge bomb will either drop people to low health or even into downed state, both places where that 20% damage helps finish the job. I'm also not sure what 'shredding stability' has to do with anything because if a backline Rev is in your grill, getting CCd is not longer a major concern, but getting trampled is.

Secondly, Vengeful Hammers is never used for DPS by any decent Rev in any critical situation. If you're PPTing empty Lords room, sure, but then why not just stay in Glint for max DPS? But if you're in a scrap in melee range, you are swapping to VH only to keep yourself alive with the extra DR, or maybe to help cleave downs...otherwise you would want to save your energy for Inspiring Reinforcement or RoTGD. (personally I'd rather cleave downs in Glint with Elemental/Chaotic Release or using Surge of the Mists)

Also, why shouldn't Inspiring Reinforcement do damage again?

As for ranged CC, Drop the Hammer is more about area denial, triggering marks, and taking down those who are unaware. If I cast that spell 10 times against a decent enemy, I might land it 30% of the time. And even so, why can't Revenant have a ranged CC? I can tell you both Mesmers and Necros have much more impactful ranged CC as it also pulls you out of position/off walls.

I mean, should we talk about nerfing Prime Light Beam? I think most players agree that if a player eats a PLB, they should practice using their keyboard more for dodging than for posting on forums.

I'm certainly getting that you don't like to fight against Heralds, and that's fair, but that's not the reason for nerfs. I could give you a list of all the professions I wish could get changed because I hate fighting them, and you could just as easily tear apart my argument.

I also agree that Rev is powerful, and there are definitely moments when it seems TOO powerful...but those are just moments, brief parts of a fight, and the same could be said of pretty much every meta build you see on the field. We can all do stupid OP stuff - the only question is how frequently can we do it, and what impact does it have.

Lastly, the ratios still don't prove your point, at least not in the groups I'm in. Granted I'm not playing in 50 person closed guild squads, so their tactics might be different, but in your average squad, even when meta builds are enforced, Scourge still has a 2-1 ratio to Revs; I pay attention to this because I'll swap in/out of Draconic Echo depending on how many Heralds there are per subsquad.

Anyone who says Hammer Herald needs buffs or isn't competitive in group WvW play is obviously trolling, but I don't see a case that Rev is overpowered - it is just good at what it does, and it is the only profession that can do what it does...but the exact same thing can be said of FB, Scourge, Weaver/Tempest, and Scrapper (in group settings). So if everyone is equally overpowered, then overpowered is just "normal"

Now obviously some people will just jump on the whole "Rev main sighted" train, but the intellectually stunted aren't of concern to me. I'm not going to listen to criticism from the BMW dealer about the Mercedes I'm driving, y'know....especially if they don't really spend any time driving one.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@L A T I O N.8923 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Rev are > @RisenHowl.2419 said:

Mainly due to the strength of revs, the top end needs a damage shave so other classes can compete.

The last big change to the meta was scrapper buffs a year ago, since then it's been a whole lot of nothing to shake things up =/

People are losing interest because it's getting boring and you never know what killed you, you can't see any of the 10k+ Rev hits since they all get culled

wait, 10k is a problem? so de's 15k+ is not a problem?

everything needs a huge overhaul, there's too much multi target boons, too much mobile aoe dmg, too much aoe sustain, dmg too high

The 10k is not reflectable, spotable and aoe

De's 15k is single target' projectile from someone standing still

rev is a 1 hit wonder, De is basically a hidden gatling gun, take you down with 2 consecutive hits out from nowhere

i can bet there are more deaths from pewpew de, pewpew ranger, scourage bombers than rev's hammer

We talk about groupfight meta, not your individual failure to break Line of sight

I play all of them, hammer rev is completely nothing in group fights, 99% of the time is completed absorbed by barriers and heals

scourge bomb + firebrand combo is way for toxic in the current meta in group fights

Great, then you also know how much bigger the range aoe damage is of revs compared to other classes. Which also have the problem of the firebrand scourge combo..