otto.5684 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 @Swagg.9236 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@NecroSummonsMors.7816 said:Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.why?Invulnerability can be balanced, but instantaneous, on-demand, no-cost invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 uses the latter profusely which is why the game is a joke.Its not two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing.Its a 5v5 or 2v2, for control of points, and during the span of the match any of those actors can be outnumbered. Invuln has application for stalling for support or retreating from an unwinnable situation, and that adds complexity to the game.Dont forget you can always be +1ed if you pvp. Anet is pushing team play and strategy, not honor duels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahkeus.8243 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 I voted no because I don't think that invuln needs a counter, but there should still be limits. Renewed Focus is a good example because it's on a long cooldown, only has a short 3 second duration, and doesn't allow point capture, and since it's a channel, you can't perform any other actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi.6027 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Saying there are counter options like unblockable vs blocks, doesn’t really matter for classes that don’t have significantly strong unblockable options. It might as well be an extended dodge to them. To me direct counter play is a bit of a moot point. 1 second of a defensive cooldown although technically not equal, is close enough to be on par when the large portion of skills are indiscriminate between a block, evade, invuln.But if we are talking about direct counters, in the cases where they enemy is locked an animation you simply have to stow and not attack, wasting their (usually lengthy) cooldown. If it requires a heavy use of a resource on top of a big cooldown regardless, of if it locks you into an animation or not; that can be an equal trade when playing smart, and understand what options an opponent does or doesn’t have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Standing on the node is a counter to invulnerability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconious.2751 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 @Tycura.1982 said:@Tayga.3192 said:Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?Mist FormObsidian FleshElixir SRenewed FocusDistortion3/5 of those you can't attack from either.You can be immobilized while in Mist Form unlike elixir S even though they basically do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 the trade-off is that you can't contest@Yannir.4132 said:@Tayga.3192 said:Aren't there only five skills that grant invulnerable?Mist FormObsidian FleshElixir SRenewed FocusDistortionThere's one more, it's on ele as well and it's called Fortify.The reason you don't see it used is it's in Conjure Earth Shield.elixir of heroes from pig pet is another hidden one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clownmug.8357 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Invulnerable means invulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoomNexus.5324 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Imo invulnerability should just be removed from the game or at the very least from PvP modes and be replaced by like an evade or something. Being completely unsuceptible to everything including CCs and condi damage should just not be a thing in a pvp environment imo.The amount of blocks, evades, invuls etc is too much anyway. Should get an overhaul.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 @Leonidrex.5649 said:@Swagg.9236 said:@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"NecroSummonsMors.7816" said:Invulnerability should never exist in any game with competitive pvp. It should never have been implemented in this game in the first place.why?Invulnerability can be balanced, but on-demand, no-resource invulnerability just turns a game into cooldown whack-a-mole rather than two players attempting to truly best each other with strategy or timing. GW2 is the latter, and it's everywhere, which is why the game is a joke.i dont think its invulnerability specifically, but its combination with everything else.when i duel an ely on node and he just reflects for several secounds, then blocks, then evades, then he cleanses, then invul and back to blocks and reflects and I just leave the node to go have fun somewhere else. Same with almost all the classes, fight a warrior on node, he will try to kill you in 1s if he fails he will block/dodge/cleanse for 30s then hide behind a rock with SkIlLfUlL kItE then back to try the same thing.Yes, I typically classify every example of perfect damage negation as "invulnerability" when it comes to GW2. Yes, there are typically very mild differences among them (i.e. block can be bypassed by "unblockable" attacks and evading targets can still "run into" ward walls), but such differences are so minute when it comes to GW2 PvP interactions, that they might as well not really mean anything. In fact, they are so minute that they often go undiscussed or unknown to the point which I CONSTANTLY see Thieves doing Daggerstorm into Static Field or other enemies attempting to evade through Unsteady Ground. It is very, very rare that I see anyone attempt to actively avoid ward walls in PvP (mainly because they are so scarce). When it comes to bypassing block with unblockable attacks, unblockable attacks themselves are so arbitrarily allotted among the classes, that typically whenever anyone employs an unblockable attack, it's mostly entirely out of coincidence; the person using an unblockable attack probably only has it because that unblockable skill does something of more value in the first place (i.e. instant damage, grants damage negation, something else generic and overpowered).When all of this garbage is piled together into every build that shows up in GW2 PvP, it turns the game into cooldown whack-a-mole which indeed works out to what you described at the end of your post. That's mostly why GW2 PvP is so uncompelling; there is no risk/reward. Players only go on the offensive when they are insulated from risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 @otto.5684 said:Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip).Dodging is the counter to damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Multicolorhipster.9751 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 I mean, true invulnerability is pretty rare to begin with. And where it does exist; it comes with stipulations, such as not being able to attack and not giving capture point contribution. At the most, i'd say no skill that gives invulnerability should also allow someone to attack at once, otherwise it's totally fine imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 @Swagg.9236 said:@otto.5684 said:Invulnerability is counter to damage. We do not need a counter for a counter. If invulnerability is an issue (I do not think it is) then reduce its availability. And that goes for everything. This is how the game became spam wars instead of guild wars (looking at you unblocable damage, boon spam and boon rip).Dodging is the counter to damage.dodging is counter to being hit, when you have damage over times ( conditions on you ) you still take damage while dodging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 small note: block/absorb/reflect = unblockable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancho.8750 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 Like many said, i dislike that most invulnerability skills let you do what ever you want and go ham and just kill people, basically i win button the opponent can't do anything about it. Even elixir S annoys me since you can ress and stomp in it. The best and most balanced invulnerability is Renewed Focus you get a to reset yourself and not kill anyone while casting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monotony.4931 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycura.1982 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 @Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too.Tether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted August 17, 2019 Share Posted August 17, 2019 @Tycura.1982 said:@Elmo Benchwarmer.3025 said:If we start countering invulnerability, then I want a counter to teleportation too.Tether? there is some ability from necro? or scourge that whenever i tried to blink it wouldnt do anything and go on cooldown, might be a bug tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega.5791 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 What I'd like to see: When a player uses invulnerability, the duration should be as long as decapping the point needs. So you really really have to think about when to use it. Be it by extending the duration ever so slightly or reducing the decap time a little.One could discuss changing the invulnerability skills to not allow damaging. This would also make mirage dodge more unique. But I wouldn't know how to change Distortion to keep the balance, and neither Obsidian Flesh on ele focus. Ele focus would need some other ability to deal damage - make it 50% less damage and stab or something like this? Not sure about that, just spontaneous thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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