Appreciation Post to the Developers Regarding Jormag

[Funky.4861]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Funky.4861 said:You can't, by definition, be non-binary and male/female. Nonbinary means neither gender, not male, not female, somewhere in-between. Mordy was definitely male, kralk male, glint female, vlast male, aurene female but really, if we get to thwart a major non-binary character, i'm happy to rain on the non-binary parade :)

Considering we dont want to kill any more dragons whats make you think we will rain on non-binary parade exactly?

It's highly likely that we will ruin their plans, as we consider pretty much anything an elder dragon does as evil.

[Warkind.6745]

Can't believe Anet could afford to put J.K. Rowling on the writing team.

[Orimidu.9604]

Commander: Jormag! You've driven the Charr and Norn from their homelands! You've caused an unending winter for the north, perhaps irreparable damage to the environment!

The Pact: It's time you answer for what you've done, dragon!

Jormag: Mind your pronouns, bigots.

[Orimidu.9604]

Seriously though, I'm scratching my head on this one. When it comes to the Sons of Svanir, the plot twist of Jormag actually being female would have been a pretty big blow to the "male supremacy" culture. Instead, they decided the focus should be "non-binarism" rather than true feminism. I feel like the former is a missed opportunity that would have received cheers from all sides of the political fence. It was the perfect setup for it.

[Menadena.7482]

@SpyderArachnid.5619 said:

@"Funky.4861" said:I'll just drop this here...

https://ibb.co/JcXjXW0

Yeah... Jormag has always been referred to as male since the beginning. Not sure why Anet felt it necessary to change that.

You can see the same in how the english language is used. It used to be acceptable to default to calling someone 'he' if you did not know otherwise but now the default is more often a more inclusive they (more people dislike being called the wrong gender than no assumption of their gender when they have not given any clue about it).

I would like to thanks the devs too. While I am non binary it goes beyond that, it makes sense that dragons would not follow human conventions in the first place.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I always thought of established EDs (not Aurene), as genderless beings, far beyond human biology rules and norms. And for that reason, I find the notion of them caring about what gender they identify as , pretty silly. I see it as an attempt to anthropomorphize them, something that ruins the eldritch abomination vibes they are supposed to have.

Now if it's a matter of what mortals perceive them as, with EDs themselves not giving a kitten, it's a whole other story. I'd much prefer that approach.

Oh and excuse me OP, I think I will decide which thread I want to post in.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Funky.4861" said:You can't, by definition, be non-binary and male/female. Nonbinary means neither gender, not male, not female, somewhere in-between. Mordy was definitely male, kralk male, glint female, vlast male, aurene female but really, if we get to thwart a major non-binary character, i'm happy to rain on the non-binary parade :)

I want to correct one thing. Mordremoth's voice actor was male. Mordremoth himself is never once called male. I believe the same is with Vlast. The only dragons put gender by people who would know to are Kralkatorrik, Aurene, and Glint. The latter two by themselves, the former (Kralk) by his family.

Obviously the voice actors for the Elder Dragons will be male or female. That's a given, seeing as humanity is struck with two different sexes.

And that last bit? That is unnecessary bashing. Grow up. That said, you already bashed two major non-binary characters. Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Congrats on "raining parades" (you didn't, no one gave a shit).

[Menadena.7482]

@"Funky.4861" said:You can't, by definition, be non-binary and male/female. Nonbinary means neither gender, not male, not female, somewhere in-between. Mordy was definitely male, kralk male, glint female, vlast male, aurene female but really, if we get to thwart a major non-binary character, i'm happy to rain on the non-binary parade :)

It depends on the definitions, the NB (non-binary) community often puts a "strictly" in there. In other words, if you do not strictly ID as male or female you can fall under the definition of nonbinary.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Talindra.4958 said:Im actually surprise that jogmar has such a young voice.. i was actually preferring a deeper stronger and older voice..

Well preserved by the ice. :p

@Funky.4861 said:It's highly likely that we will ruin their plans, as we consider pretty much anything an elder dragon does as evil.

I don't think we do any longer after what we've learnt about Kralkatorrik and what we are likely going to learn about the origin of the Elder Dragons.

@MrForz.1953 said:I do not know what people are looking for these days.

Interesting plot twists, which we are getting with Jormag not being male, considering the Sons of Svanir's antiquated agenda. It's going to be a lot of malicious joy.

[MrForz.1953]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@MrForz.1953 said:I do not know what people are looking for these days.

Interesting plot twists, which we are getting with Jormag not being male, considering the Sons of Svanir's antiquated agenda. It's going to be a lot of malicious joy.They're miles away from that stuff. Do you really think that rigid and power-above-all norns are going to question the gender identity of their dragon ruler, an entity beyond their comprehension and reject it because they found out (for some reason they'd study and find that out?) said dragon isn't male? This is petty.

[Funky.4861]

Ok, i retract the 'rain on the non-binary parade' because it's uncalled-for and what i was really getting at was the leftist ideology/agenda behind it.

For me the important thing is the storytelling; for anet to p*** all over established lore is galling but even that can be redeemed because (afaik) you don't just wake up one day and decide your gender, it's a process of discovery. So it depends how they handle it.

Also- why are the sons of svanir misogynistic? What is their motive? They don't view women as weak/inferior or look down on them; women are resented and excluded because of what Jora did to their leader. It's quite an interesting take on what norn society expected of their men and women, given that they are all very capable hunters.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@MrForz.1953 said:I do not know what people are looking for these days.

Interesting plot twists, which we are getting with Jormag not being male, considering the Sons of Svanir's antiquated agenda. It's going to be a lot of malicious joy.

The Son of Svanir's side story, concerning Jormag's ambiguous nature would indeed be interesting. But we have no indication this is going to be explored in the saga. The Sons are already accepting females in their ranks as of late, because...reasons. I guess in this fantasy land of murder and mayhem, there is no place for discrimination even if it makes for an interesting story.

@MrForz.1953 said:

They're miles away from that stuff. Do you really think that rigid and power-above-all norns are going to question the gender identity of their dragon ruler, an entity beyond their comprehension and reject it because they found out (for some reason they'd study and find that out?) said dragon isn't male? This is petty.

Pettiness is a very "human" trait (and that's what Norns are, big humans). Also the Sons were the ones who used to discriminate against a whole gender because of the actions of a single female. I would call that petty too. Not exploring the conflict between their rigid old beliefs and the new revelation about their "deity", is a missed opportunity.

I guess Anet is more content with simply using buzzwords and not exploring their actual story implications within the world they have built. Uncomfortable themes can often make for good stories, if done right.

[Mandatory.6590]

I doubt that sos are unaware of Jormags identity. Making that the case would be cliche and bad writing.

[Ashantara.8731]

@"Mandatory.6590" said:I doubt that sos are unaware of Jormags identity. Making that the case would be cliche and bad writing.

Yes, they are. They constantly refer to Jormag as "he". None of them has ever seen Jormag with their own eyes, so they keep assuming gender.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"MrForz.1953" said:I do not know what people are looking for these days.

Interesting plot twists, which we are getting with Jormag not being male, considering the Sons of Svanir's antiquated agenda. It's going to be a lot of malicious joy.

The Son of Svanir's side story, concerning Jormag's ambiguous nature would indeed be interesting. But we have no indication this is going to be explored in the saga. The Sons are already accepting females in their ranks as of late, because...reasons.

LOL at "reasons". I did not know that! At least, I can't recall running into a female SoS - perhaps I was too focused on fighting them. :p

Aww, there goes my hope for a big shocker to them. ;)

[MrForz.1953]

@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:Pettiness is a very "human" trait (and that's what Norns are, big humans). Also the Sons were the ones who used to discriminate against a whole gender because of the actions of a single female. I would call that petty too. Not exploring the conflict between their rigid old beliefs and the new revelation about their "deity", is a missed opportunity.

Petty is the word I used to describe the said plot twist, not the Sons. That stuff holds zero weight as the Sons of Svanir "discrimination" is secondary at best, and the primary concern is revering Jormag as the only spirit totem worth worshipping. Also, the base of that discrimination is much more of an immense, Warhammer-Mountain-Dwarf caliber grudge due to Svanir's death than a superiority complex. If they ever find out Jormag's not male, assuming they're not already aware to begin with, so what?

[Ashen.2907]

@"perilisk.1874" said:Not to rain on the diversity parade, but isn't that comment pretty obvious, since all the dragons are basically sapient piles of elemental magic which are in no way related to sexually dimorphic biological entities, and that any concept of gender previously attributed to them has been a result of the mortal races anthropomorphizing (Nornpomorphizing, whatever) them, or on them imprinting on mortals and mimicking an inapplicable concept? The gender of an elder dragon is like the color of a sound.

Bingo!

"That stormfront is female," or, "That jungle is male," are irrelevant labels placed by small-minded insects (reference to petty mortal characters, especially asura, not any player or poster) trying to understand the elemental forces of a universe they barely perceive.

[Mandatory.6590]

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Mandatory.6590" said:I doubt that sos are unaware of Jormags identity. Making that the case would be cliche and bad writing.

Yes, they are. They constantly refer to Jormag as "he". None of them has ever seen Jormag with their own eyes, so they keep assuming gender.

@AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"MrForz.1953" said:I do not know what people are looking for these days.

Interesting plot twists, which we are getting with Jormag not being male, considering the Sons of Svanir's antiquated agenda. It's going to be a lot of malicious joy.

The Son of Svanir's side story, concerning Jormag's ambiguous nature would indeed be interesting. But we have no indication this is going to be explored in the saga. The Sons are already accepting females in their ranks as of late, because...reasons.

LOL at "reasons". I did not know that! At least, I can't recall running into a female SoS - perhaps I was too focused on fighting them. :p

Aww, there goes my hope for a big shocker to them. ;)

Where? I look and see they call Jormag, Dragon. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sons_of_SvanirI also checked some of the NPC dialog, and they call Jormag, Dragon. They say Dragon.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I will withhold judgement until after the story has concluded. If is a decent story like Kas and Jory I will be ok with it. If it is pointless virtue signaling like Sya I will be annoyed. Personally, I hope it is not like what they did with Solo, say Lando is bi, then do absolutely nothing with it. If you are going to bring up Jormag's gender, THEN DO SOMETHING WITH IT. Otherwise just leave it alone.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@SpyderArachnid.5619 said:

@"Funky.4861" said:I'll just drop this here...

https://ibb.co/JcXjXW0

Yeah... Jormag has always been referred to as male since the beginning. Not sure why Anet felt it necessary to change that.

Because "Inclusion for inclusions sake" No matter how much of the lore and well established ties to it they destroy. A-net has this kinda thing where they get to a point where they don't care much about what has been between guild wars 1 and even prior in guild wars 2. I do like to think of Jormag as functioning like Pennywise where it takes on the form, and personality it knows that will personally resonate with you.

Though I won't be surprised if the sons of svanir are no more and its an all women group that we can neither kill or do anything too, and we merely have to fend them off because we can't go around murdering them. I honestly just want jormag to live through facing us and be a constant thing ever present but never directly there and play up the mental horror and eldritch nature of the dragons. (I Really hope bubbles/Steve is a plus one here, so we can get this undertone of dragons less interested in directly facing us. And more trying to make us understand as best they can that "They" are not the enemy.) Could tie this into the madness that consumed kralk and how the others are not effected.

I was hoping Jormag would be a Play on the norse serpent Jörmungandr and bring in more of a mythological nature, with eldritch/horror roots and mental thrills. Im not sure if "He/It" Will or if the community could handle that type of story. Because whenever the story starts heading to a darker place the majority of people I Talk to or know whine about it, so here is hoping A-net won't listen on that front and will stick to their guns and make Guild wars 2 Return to its dark fantasy roots. (Norn reworks would be cool, with the ability to be werebeasts more? Yes please <3)

[interloper.6892]

The bosses gender doesn't matter in the slightest. What matters is whether it will be an absurdly easy boss to autoattack to death, or whether there will actually be some challenge and fun involved...

[Dashingsteel.3410]

I would be more interested to know the biological sex of Jormag and the other dragons. Do they have male and female? Are they hermaphroditic? The term gender has become meaningless with its "state of mind" usage today.

[Tazer.2157]

When you need to rely on a third person you barely know to make you feel comfortable about yourself by making a fictional character genderless, you got serious issues pal. I feel sorry for you that you think having a character in a video game makes it somehow more "inclusive". If you are comfortable with yourself you DO NOT need validation from anyone. Requiring validation from other people makes it obvious that you have doubts about your opinions. BTW no company cares about "diversity". If they can sell you diversity they will and that is exactly what Anet has done. It is easy to pander and in 2019 when everyone is trying to be a victim, pandering is child's play.