Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the only instant cast offensive skill that's a problem is mantra of pain (mesmer) since it has basically no cd. would be nice it if had one, even nicer if heal on mantra trait was buffed somehow since it relies on spamming pain mantra.

[apharma.3741]

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:the only instant cast offensive skill that's a problem is mantra of pain (mesmer) since it has basically no cd. would be nice it if had one, even nicer if heal on mantra trait was buffed somehow since it relies on spamming pain mantra.

I already made a post about this mantra nearly a year ago now, so likewise bear in mind the meta and game was VERY different to now:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain

I think moving away from direct damage and for a more mesmer like effect would be better. The biggest problem is the might stacks as it boosts not just the mantra damage but everything else amplifying the damage of even core mesmer up.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Justine.6351 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I keep seeing people say mantras are instant cast but those people never mention that they have a really long charge time.Because in 90% of cases charging is done out of combat so its not a realistic factor of the in-combat experience unless the caster chooses to take that risk and over extend by doing so.

And if you read the rest of what I said, have the charges bleed off with decay.Well i didnt respond to the rest of it because.... I dont think thats needed to be honest

Just make it so people can see loaded mantras on the bar that way at least they can just glance at you and know what you have by seeing the icon. That alone should provide some counter-play room for most mantras. you might fight differently if you know what mantras a person has than if youd didnt and just get hit like "SURPRISE MANTRA!"

[Burnfall.9573]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs, NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION--

[ZDragon.3046]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs,

NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION

--

The reason why mesmer likely came up first before any other profession is because it abuses instant cast skills more than any other profession in competivie modes so its the one people think of first its likely not specifically blaming mesmers on purpose but mesmers put a bad taste in peoples mouth with their mantra combos in the past for sure.

Its not surprising thats what comes to mind before anything else.

ITs like if someone started a post that said aoes are doing to much. who would come to mind first? Scourge would of course.

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I keep seeing people say mantras are instant cast but those people never mention that they have a really long charge time.I don't even know how mesmer mantras are still a target considering lost time damage was gutted after it was added as a damage replacement for power block which now is a non-crit.

If I were forced to find a middle ground I would have mantra charges dissipate 1 per 5-10 seconds?

Just because they have a long charge time doesn't justify them having powerful instant cast charges. This is true especially considering that you can channel them all

prior

to engaging in combat.

Watch any of the 70 games I uploaded on core mantra mesmer. Count how many times I was able to successfully charge my mantras in the middle of a fight and how many times the channels got interrupted.

So, if they aren't interrupting your mantra charging in the middle of combat why would it matter if the charges we're instant cast lol...

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

It's very easy to fully channel the mantras

during

combat. It is also possible to fully channel the mantras

prior

to engaging in combat.

As such, long channel times do not justify the fact that they have strong, instant cast effects.

It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

@Caine.8204 said:

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:As some other posts have mentioned it comes down to how much impact instant skills should have, and it's something we're taking a close look at for the future update. We tend to agree that instant skills shouldn't do big damage or hard cc, or if they need to they should have some delayed trigger. The line gets more blurry as we look at things that aren't damage or cc, but there are definitely numbers that can be acceptable for instant skills.

In general, making sure that adequate counterplay exists is a big thing we want to hammer on moving forward.

On my damage Firebrand, I feel like I have to run 5 Mantras. The mantras are simply too good to pass up. You have the healing mantra with the aegis trait, which heals for ~3,000 each time you pulse it, on a 10s cooldown. Pretty strong, considering you can pulse it twice in a row without blowing the whole thing and allowing your stacks to recharge. Quickness "on demand" is a problem as well. The quickness mantra allows you to blow it exactly when you know you can land cleave, I feel like this mantra in general is very powerful in PvP because it allows you to catch your victim and then increase your damage by 33% against them for a brief moment. After landing an Axe 2/3 combo, you simply quickness and auto attack to kill your target. You can do this every 10 seconds as well. If you manage to pull multiple targets with your axe 3, you can blow all of your quickness to then immobilize them briefly as well, ensuring that your damage (33% increased) will land on all targets in the cleave range.

Blind mantra - bread and butter of a DPS guardian. Blind, Weakness, and Cripple. Holo charging a laser at me? blow a blind charge and shut out his elite, instantly, while stunned, from a pretty decent range as well. You can selectively (every 10 seconds) blind hard hitting abilities. The final charge of this will also immobilize, and if its traited, its about 4.5 seconds of immob on every target struck. Combine that with the quickness mantra, and you have multiple targets who can't deal damage (weakness and blind) and cant move (immob and cripple) who have to take the brunt of a firebrand's assault (which is increased by 33% while they have quickness).

Regen mantra: a bunch of condition removal over the course of a game. Keep in mind, the effects of all these mantras are also shared with allies. A firebrand in a team fight is continually healing the team through regen and removing their conditions, with a final burst of 5 conditions - > turned to boons just in case things get dicey.

Stability Mantra - on demand stun break, and a stability stack just in case they have another stun ready for you. 20s cooldown, which is faster than almost any SINGLE stun break in the game, and you can blow it 3 times. The final charge will essentially make you and your allies immune to stun by granting 5 stability to all.

I feel like a lot of what makes the firebrand's mantras significant is the final charge, but in general, all of the mantras I would consider better than the other utility skills they have available. The more notable mantras being the Aegis mantra (always going to be superior as a Firebrand (possible intended)), the blind mantra, and the stability mantra.

I would hope, though, that if these saw a nerf, we could see some changes to some of the other utility skills to make them more desired. I would love to drop the Honor tree as a firebrand, but I feel like I HAVE to take the honor tree + aegis mantra to even be competitive, for example.

Changes I would consider:

Final charge of the blind mantra no longer immobilizes, mantra trait immobilize increased to 2s duration (it has a 10s cooldown as well). This would make it so that you have to take the mantra trait to immob, and with a shorter duration. Perhaps consider removing the Cripple effect from this mantra, so enemies have an easier time removing an immob or the burns.

Quickness Mantra: Duration of quickness reduced by 20% (2.5 seconds to 2.0 seconds on the initial charges)

Regen Mantra: Final pulse reduced from 5 conditions to 3 conditions. Reduce cooldown of charges by 2 seconds. Steadier condition removal, less burst condition removal.

Stability Mantra: stability removed from all but the final charge. Keep the stun break.

In terms of the already mentioned need to reduce access and duration from boons i agree that some defencive Mantras, in particular from Guard, can be looked at. But here the instant nature is not the issue at all, thats why they were not mentioned by me. They have no balance issue caused by them being instant.

[Eurantien.4632]

I'm personally more salty about firebrand, but you guys do you.

[bravan.3876]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs,

NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION

--

The reason why mesmer likely came up first before any other profession is because it abuses instant cast skills more than any other profession in competivie modes so its the one people think of first its likely not specifically blaming mesmers on purpose but mesmers put a bad taste in peoples mouth with their mantra combos in the past for sure.

Its not surprising thats what comes to mind before anything else.

ITs like if someone started a post that said aoes are doing to much. who would come to mind first? Scourge would of course.

It is more because only 2 classes have access to Mantras until now, Mesmers and Firebrands, so ofc when you say Mantras then everyone will assume that you talk about these 2 classes. Also it is not the first Mantra complain thread coming up and the last threads from a NA Ranger main clearly were biased against Mesmers. Not shocking at all ppl have flash backs because of that.I was here for the reason that the Anet announcement of having a look at instant skills already made me worry, when seeing how several trade offs already made specs unnecessary clunky or even unplayable in exactly the way it could happen when touching the wrong instant skills or the right ones in a wrong way. So i made a post about all instant skills can be considered problematic because of the instant nature, not only Mesmers and Guards Mantras.

[Burnfall.9573]

@bravan.3876 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs,

NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION

--

The reason why mesmer likely came up first before any other profession is because it abuses instant cast skills more than any other profession in competivie modes so its the one people think of first its likely not specifically blaming mesmers on purpose but mesmers put a bad taste in peoples mouth with their mantra combos in the past for sure.

Its not surprising thats what comes to mind before anything else.

ITs like if someone started a post that said aoes are doing to much. who would come to mind first? Scourge would of course.

It is more because only 2 classes have access to Mantras until now, Mesmers and Firebrands, so ofc when you say Mantras then everyone will assume that you talk about these 2 classes. Also it is not the first Mantra complain thread coming up and the last threads from a NA Ranger main clearly were biased against Mesmers. Not shocking at all ppl have flash backs because of that.I was here for the reason that the Anet announcement of having a look at instant skills already made me worry, when seeing how several trade offs already made specs unnecessary clunky or even unplayable in exactly the way it could happen when touching the wrong instant skills or the right ones in a wrong way.

So i made a post about all instant skills can be considered problematic because of the instant nature, not only Mesmers and Guards Mantras.

+1 No Sugarcoating The Truth

very well said

[Burnfall.9573]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs,

NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION

--

The reason why mesmer likely came up first before any other profession is because it abuses instant cast skills more than any other profession in competivie modes so its the one people think of first its likely not specifically blaming mesmers on purpose but mesmers put a bad taste in peoples mouth with their mantra combos in the past for sure.

Its not surprising thats what comes to mind before anything else.

ITs like if someone started a post that said aoes are doing to much. who would come to mind first? Scourge would of course.

I understand

[Arekai.5698]

Since you guys want to nerf mesmer for the 10th time. Please make stuff like thief steal take half a sec then and also nerf weaver instant ohko please.Just to make it fair.

[Dantheman.3589]

I wouldn’t really like changes like some of these suggestions on thief. We remove instant cast steal and we’ll everyone will play deadeye or no thief at all. Remove initiative system for something that isn’t instant and take away ammo it would be like a rogue in gw2 which I don’t think anyone would play. Instant cast is just kind of big on thief and if we remove it no one will play thief. I hope ppl get where I’m coming from remove all instant cast and ammo system too much for players to handle it could ruin the combat system and I would just play wow until they make it work

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I keep seeing people say mantras are instant cast but those people never mention that they have a really long charge time.I don't even know how mesmer mantras are still a target considering lost time damage was gutted after it was added as a damage replacement for power block which now is a non-crit.

If I were forced to find a middle ground I would have mantra charges dissipate 1 per 5-10 seconds?

Just because they have a long charge time doesn't justify them having powerful instant cast charges. This is true especially considering that you can channel them all

prior

to engaging in combat.

Watch any of the 70 games I uploaded on core mantra mesmer. Count how many times I was able to successfully charge my mantras in the middle of a fight and how many times the channels got interrupted.

So, if they aren't interrupting your mantra charging in the middle of combat why would it matter if the charges we're instant cast lol...

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

It's very easy to fully channel the mantras

during

combat. It is also possible to fully channel the mantras

prior

to engaging in combat.

As such, long channel times do not justify the fact that they have strong, instant cast effects.

they dont have strong effect, they are weak or medicore at best, only reason they are used is due to being instant cast, the moment its remove they become hot garbage, if you add delay, increase the effect, and then the whining begins anew, if you wanna gut mantras at the very least remove them from the game and give proper utilities, im getting sick of everything being nerfed into utter garbageo/ CIo/ Chronoo/ Portal

[Justine.6351]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Justine.6351 said:I keep seeing people say mantras are instant cast but those people never mention that they have a really long charge time.I don't even know how mesmer mantras are still a target considering lost time damage was gutted after it was added as a damage replacement for power block which now is a non-crit.

If I were forced to find a middle ground I would have mantra charges dissipate 1 per 5-10 seconds?

Just because they have a long charge time doesn't justify them having powerful instant cast charges. This is true especially considering that you can channel them all

prior

to engaging in combat.

Watch any of the 70 games I uploaded on core mantra mesmer. Count how many times I was able to successfully charge my mantras in the middle of a fight and how many times the channels got interrupted.

So, if they aren't interrupting your mantra charging in the middle of combat why would it matter if the charges we're instant cast lol...

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

It's very easy to fully channel the mantras

during

combat. It is also possible to fully channel the mantras

prior

to engaging in combat.

As such, long channel times do not justify the fact that they have strong, instant cast effects.

they dont have strong effect, they are weak or medicore at best, only reason they are used is due to being instant cast, the moment its remove they become hot garbage, if you add delay, increase the effect, and then the whining begins anew, if you wanna gut mantras at the very least remove them from the game and give proper utilities, im getting sick of everything being nerfed into utter garbageo/ CIo/ Chronoo/ Portal

Pretty muchIsn't enough to garbage can chrono, got to go after core as well lol...

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:

1. It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

2. You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

1. I never said the enemies let me freecast. Instead, I said that I use the tools at my disposal to help guarantee the full mantra channels. Just watch the in-houses yesterday where Mur was playing mantra mesmer against 5 other good players. It's hilarious how hard you're trying to make it sound like mantras are only good against complete noobs when they are clearly effective across a variety of skill ranges (including high end).
2. Yes, because that's how you should play mantras. It's not a "cost" of using them. It's just called playing smart and not channeling them right next to someone with an interrupt ready. Unlike you, I don't just sit there in the middle of a team fight trying to channel my mantra and then going, "Wow it keeps getting interrupted." Like come on, that's so stupid.

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

1. It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

2. You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

1. I never said the enemies let me freecast. Instead, I said that I use the tools at my disposal to help guarantee the full mantra channels. Just watch the in-houses yesterday where Mur was playing mantra mesmer against 5 other good players. It's hilarious how hard you're trying to make it sound like mantras are only good against complete noobs when they are clearly effective across a variety of skill ranges (including high end).
2. Yes, because that's how you
   should
   play mantras. It's not a "cost" of using them. It's just called playing smart and not channeling them right next to someone with an interrupt ready. Unlike you, I don't just sit there in the middle of a team fight trying to channel my mantra and then going, "Wow it keeps getting interrupted." Like come on, that's so stupid.

This is so wrong and missing what the points are again that i don't even bother anymore to explain it again 5 times for you until you run out of arguments and bait out by saying you will not read that much and need to study xD

[bravan.3876]

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Justine.6351 said:

@Monkey See.1498 said:I think for things such as Mantra of Pain, and the Fresh Air Elementalist damage attacks putting them on a delay is probably the best solution that.

It keeps the flavor, combos, and gameplay intact while actually giving players on the opposing side the opportunity to more easily avoid it and counter play it. It's probably the easiest change that can be coded in.

You thinking like a little bomb with a timer?And give it the scourge shade strike expanding red ring?

Yeah, a ticking time bomb. Like with mantra of pain you could add something akin to the old alacrity effect for 2-3 seconds that lets you visually see something is about to happen to your character. And with Lightning Discharge on Elementalist you could have electricity pulsing around the victim for 2-3 seconds.

2-3 secs delay is way too much, imagine a Fresh Air Ele waiting 2-3 secs for the dmg to happen. The build should still be fast playable. Also it makes it even harder to dodge when you need to count to 2 or 3 after seeing an animation. It is way easier when you see the animation and then just have the time to press dodge immediately. Means a delay from around 0,5 secs is probably enough.

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

1. It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

2. You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

1. I never said the enemies let me freecast. Instead, I said that I use the tools at my disposal to help guarantee the full mantra channels. Just watch the in-houses yesterday where Mur was playing mantra mesmer against 5 other good players. It's hilarious how hard you're trying to make it sound like mantras are only good against complete noobs when they are clearly effective across a variety of skill ranges (including high end).
2. Yes, because that's how you
   should
   play mantras. It's not a "cost" of using them. It's just called playing smart and not channeling them right next to someone with an interrupt ready. Unlike you, I don't just sit there in the middle of a team fight trying to channel my mantra and then going, "Wow it keeps getting interrupted." Like come on, that's so stupid.

This is so wrong and missing what the points are again that i don't even bother anymore to explain it again 5 times for you until you run out of arguments and bait out by saying you will not read that much and need to study xD

They're called midterms and I don't feel like reading an essay right before I leave for class.

You can call me wrong but I'm not the one getting my mantras interrupted constantly. There were in-houses streamed yesterday with a ton of good players on NA. Mur did perfectly fine against Team USA members on his mantra mirage. He wasn't even using PU or mass invis.

I'm not going to bother explaining basic mechanics to someone who can't be bothered to play intelligently and instead insists on sitting in the middle of the teamfight going "why aren't my mantras channelling?"

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

1. It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

2. You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

1. I never said the enemies let me freecast. Instead, I said that I use the tools at my disposal to help guarantee the full mantra channels. Just watch the in-houses yesterday where Mur was playing mantra mesmer against 5 other good players. It's hilarious how hard you're trying to make it sound like mantras are only good against complete noobs when they are clearly effective across a variety of skill ranges (including high end).
2. Yes, because that's how you
   should
   play mantras. It's not a "cost" of using them. It's just called playing smart and not channeling them right next to someone with an interrupt ready. Unlike you, I don't just sit there in the middle of a team fight trying to channel my mantra and then going, "Wow it keeps getting interrupted." Like come on, that's so stupid.

This is so wrong and missing what the points are again that i don't even bother anymore to explain it again 5 times for you until you run out of arguments and bait out by saying you will not read that much and need to study xD

They're called midterms and I don't feel like reading an essay right before I leave for class.

You can call me wrong but I'm not the one getting my mantras interrupted constantly. There were in-houses streamed yesterday with a ton of good players on NA. Mur did perfectly fine against Team USA members on his mantra mirage. He wasn't even using PU or mass invis.

I'm not going to bother explaining basic mechanics to someone who can't be bothered to play intelligently and instead insists on sitting in the middle of the teamfight going "why aren't my mantras channelling?"

As said you don't get the points at all. If you are not able to see what are skill costs and what not during you describe yourself what you all have to do to get the channel through just blindly deny to name it costs then it is your problem. I am not playing Mantras currently, when i play Mesmer i play Condimirage and without old CI it doesn't use any Mantra. I also never said Mantras only work vs bad player or that i would have a problem to get the recharge through, i only explained to you that a free recharge (means where Mantras rly have no costs, where you can ignore the recharge as some sort of high cost, like you try to make it look like) is only possible when running out of keep, after a won fight/ team wipe or when the Mesmer is allowed to freecast or free rotate during the match. Otherwise you have to use a lot of tools or disengage to get the recharge through, as you just listed yourself a lot of examples in the following quoted comment from you (as said you don't even understand the real meaning of what you write yourself).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

^Nothing of this you have to do for a skill with a normal cd, no skill type except of Mantras have such high costs of a vulnerable long recharge time you have to cover by other skills or by disengaging and not having impact for the time of the recharge+ the time of your disengagement and +time for re-engagement. No other skills cd recharge can even be interrupted or used for some free pressure. It is so simple and obvious that it is actually cringe how you tryhard to deny to accept these as Mantra specific costs, during these costs are exactly what the nature of Mantras is and the only moments you can just deny them and call it a free recharge is when you run out of keep or after a won fight/ team wipe (no time loss , no pressure from opponents possible) or when bad player just let you freecast all time. During a running match vs decent ppl you at least need to disengage/ kite los or cover it by other cds (stealth, blind etc) the moment you cannot freecast and that is the case very often vs decent player, ergo you have costs you don't have for other type of skills recharging off cd passively. You need to be up to date about opponents cds for cc or pressure (just as you listed yourself in your quoted post above), you need to use other cds to cover or you need to disengage (also as you just mentioned yourself in the quoted post above). These moments you clearly have costs and nothing of this is required for a skill that goes off cd without you need to think about it, without you need to do something for it actively, other skills cd refreshments can't be interrupted by other players at all. So saying the recharge is not relevant for Mantras as some sort of even pretty high cost is not true the moment players don't let the Mesmer freecast in combat. Simple! If you need to use a 30 sec cd stealth to cover the mantra charge the 30 secs cd is part of the costs for mantras, if you need to disengage the time for the disengagement + the time you need to channel the recharge is lost time in terms of impact impact on the match, ergo also Mantra specific costs, the ability to even interrupt a mantra charge what you cannot do to any other skill to prevent them to get off cd also mantra specific costs. That is why Mantras are designed as they are and why they are instant after recharge. As long as they don't have op effects like stupidly high and brainless spammable dmg like MoP there is no balance issue with Mantras and their instant nature at all. That is why i say a delay is a bit of overkill in skill costs and why i prefer to just tweak Mantras with op effects (what only is the case for MoP, MoT, and maybe MoF) instead giving them a delay or cast time. But you try to deny that they even have costs from the recharge (as if you can perma free recharge), denying the whole basic nature of Mantras.

No clue where you even read that is said mantras only work vs bad player, i clearly said only vs bad player let you free cast they have NO COSTS from recharge. I dunno where you read i use mantras and can't get the recharge through, i only explained that they have mantra specific costs make it balanced for them to be instant for the other charges, ofc only as long as their effect is not too strong (and then you better just rework the overperforming ones or nerf their effect to a balanced lvl instead adding a delay or cast time because delay/ cast time contradicts the whole design of Mantras which already have a pretty long cast time before they can be used, this now is my opinion about why delay on Mantras is bad during the explanation about mantra costs are simple facts).So these 2 claims (that i said mantras onyl work vs bad player and that i use mantras and can't get the recharge) are onyl done by you to contradict my arguments with nonsense, to distract from the real points i made and to devalue what i said and you don't care that it doesn't make sense and that i never said it. You missunderstand intentionally to confuse ppl. You are literally lying to reach your goal and contradict what i say at any cost. And you used this "tactic" every single time we had a dispute until now. And even though you have to live with your conscience, i will tell you that it is simply not fair how you act.

In gernal: Ignorance and exaggerating to bend truth and cherry picking to reach a subjective goal no matter what makes me crazy so i interfere and i always will when i think something like that is happening.But after serveral discussions with you i know how it will go/ turn out, it is always the same and i am too tired too repeat and explain the obvious 5 times until you run out of ideas how to tryhard to not understand and miss all points and distract from the real meaning of my writings and when you finally would need to admit you just bait out. So once again this was the last time i responded to you over this topic in this thread. If you still didn't understand... i think everyone else did at the lastest after this post from me and Anet hopefully knows it better anyway so i don't care at all if you are convinced or not.

[Sunshine.5014]

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:As some other posts have mentioned it comes down to how much impact instant skills should have, and it's something we're taking a close look at for the future update. We tend to agree that instant skills shouldn't do big damage or hard cc, or if they need to they should have some delayed trigger. The line gets more blurry as we look at things that aren't damage or cc, but there are definitely numbers that can be acceptable for instant skills.

In general, making sure that adequate counterplay exists is a big thing we want to hammer on moving forward.

Oh my god. I randomly check GW2 forums after like years, and I see CMC posting? about pvp? and agree on a sensible balancing principle? :O I must be dreaming, or has this game getting better recently?

Anyhow, great job Anet! I'll check back in a couple months and see if the balance improved enough that I'll come back to the game.

[ZDragon.3046]

@bravan.3876 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras.

Once again blaming Mesmer Profession instead of addressing bad designs as being the root cause of it

Without calling out Bad Designs; expect nothing to change

--by the way, now every professions can instant offense +1 shot because of bad designs,

NOT BECAUSE OF MESMER PROFESSION

--

The reason why mesmer likely came up first before any other profession is because it abuses instant cast skills more than any other profession in competivie modes so its the one people think of first its likely not specifically blaming mesmers on purpose but mesmers put a bad taste in peoples mouth with their mantra combos in the past for sure.

Its not surprising thats what comes to mind before anything else.

ITs like if someone started a post that said aoes are doing to much. who would come to mind first? Scourge would of course.

It is more because only 2 classes have access to Mantras until now, Mesmers and Firebrands, so ofc when you say Mantras then everyone will assume that you talk about these 2 classes. Also it is not the first Mantra complain thread coming up and the last threads from a NA Ranger main clearly were biased against Mesmers. Not shocking at all ppl have flash backs because of that.I was here for the reason that the Anet announcement of having a look at instant skills already made me worry, when seeing how several trade offs already made specs unnecessary clunky or even unplayable in exactly the way it could happen when touching the wrong instant skills or the right ones in a wrong way. So i made a post about all instant skills can be considered problematic because of the instant nature, not only Mesmers and Guards Mantras.

Yes but mantras while they are problematic are not the only very impactful instant cast skills. Guardian has a great number of powerful instant cast combo skills that are not mantras.Theif has a fewEven necro has its shroud which is instant

Ideally most instant cast skills are not problematic and most mantras are not too crazy but a few are on both Guardian and Mesmer. Mesmers are more noticeable though.The short nasty span of CI Mirage certainly didnt help people like them more hahaha.

[Xion.5694]

Hi Cal,Will the instant 'block' 'aegis' 'blind' 'teleport' 'break stun' skills be lookend into then?Please look into the counterplays of instant damage while you look into things that do such damage or hard stun.

Love to hear!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Xion.5694 said:Hi Cal,Will the instant 'block' 'aegis' 'blind' 'teleport' 'break stun' skills be lookend into then?Please look into the counterplays of instant damage while you look into things that do such damage or hard stun.

Love to hear!

Yes cuz all instant skills are equal regardless of what they do lol.U serious?The devs have the right idea regarding insta cast skills as they should be adjusted on a individual basses considering their is a huge variance of what each insta cast skills actually do.

[Leonidrex.5649]

we all know that all this is about is making mantra of pain unplayable, just stop all this smoke and mirrors and get on with it.unless you mean steal, both mantra and steal need to be instant, what people need to realize that shit like mantra of pain is serving to burst.the moment it becomes delay it can no longer do it, so it no longer needed, and becomes unusable.

as for steal its used to teleport skills onto people, backstab->steal, sword 3 -> steal, whatever.

I also suggest you get out with what you want

" Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game.

Like Mantras. "This is another useless whiny post.Having bruiser aoe stealth is not healthy for the game.Rampage is not healthy for the game.7k dmg ranger autos are not healthy for the game1shot from stealth is not healthy for the game.25k hp lifeforce is not healthy for the gameFB vomit is not healthy for the gameREV being able to burst people down and go into 20-30s of perma dodging/evading kiting and stunremoving is not healthy for the game.

Ill share a little secret for you, if its not overpowered its not good. if its not good its bad, if its medicore its trash, if its bad its unplayable.Whenever you want to "adjust" something aka nerf becouse this is what you want, you need to ask yourself what is the reason to use thing you wanna nerf, and what the change will bring. I seen special snowflake say mantra should have 2-3s delay, cringe.

[Xion.5694]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Xion.5694 said:Hi Cal,Will the instant 'block' 'aegis' 'blind' 'teleport' 'break stun' skills be lookend into then?Please look into the counterplays of instant damage while you look into things that do such damage or hard stun.

Love to hear!

Yes cuz all instant skills are equal regardless of what they do lol.U serious?The devs have the right idea regarding insta cast skills as they should be adjusted on a individual basses considering their is a huge variance of what each insta cast skills actually do.

Hi Psycoprophet,If a Developer mentions damage dealing instant cast skills and hard crowd control ones, and adding some sort of 'delay', then I comment on that.

If you do not see the connection between two factors of 'instant counterplay', like 'aegis' or 'teleport' then, I do not have anything more say to you.