The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue"

[Knighthonor.4061]

The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue".

I may be late to the party. Just saw the Anet post on the 15 vs 15 SPvP mode. Was excited, until I realized something. Most of the time Anet doesn't seem to understand why certain things work and why certain things don't, when it comes to SPvP in general.

We had 10v10 for years, but without a queue, it was left to dailies and organized pvp groups to use. And I am a causal so I don't have time to join an organized pvp guild to arrange groups.

This needs a queue if it's going to work. So solo players outside of pre-made groups can still join and play this game mode without the need to make premades like custom Arenas are.

2v2 information was introduced not long ago as well and that to was said to not have a queue. Not sure if that stance changed since then, but I don't want 15 vs 15 to go that route as well. It needs a queue.

We don't know what the game mode will consist of, but most of use won't even get that far to judge the game mode if it doesn't even have a queue for people that like that sort of thing to easily be able to join the mode without the need of organizing premades. I leave that stuff for GvGers which most of us are not GvGers.

[Zexanima.7851]

Normally, if this were your average game dev company, I would assume it would have a queue. With seeing how much trouble Anet has with the current PvP queue system though...I don't have high hopes.

[Impling.4170]

Could just be me but 15v15 seems like the least important to have a queue for. Realistically I don't see many even queuing up for it. 15 is a LOT of players to wrangle up and I imagine the matchmaker would be a nightmare for it, waiting forever for a pop and then facing the same couple teams of potentially drastically different skill levels. No way in hell would o want to queue up with 14 randoms. That sounds terrible. Having ATs would be more than sufficient in my opinion, if at all.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Mogwai.4015 said:Could just be me but 15v15 seems like the least important to have a queue for. Realistically I don't see many even queuing up for it. 15 is a LOT of players to wrangle up and I imagine the matchmaker would be a nightmare for it, waiting forever for a pop and then facing the same couple teams of potentially drastically different skill levels. No way in hell would o want to queue up with 14 randoms. That sounds terrible. Having ATs would be more than sufficient in my opinion, if at all.

I disagree. Most MMOs over the last decade that do have instanced PvP, have 10v10 or up sized PvP matches. GW2 on the other hand didnt have options outside its 5 vs 5 conquest matches.So we have nothing to make that judgement on.

For me personally, if Vanilla GW2 had 15 vs 15, I would have never queued up for 5v5, because that's even less balanced than 15 vs 15. imagine 1v1 balance compared to a 15 vs 15 match up. a Revenant vs a Condi Mesmer wouldnt stand a chance. Larger group instances are always more balanced and evenly distributed of different classes/builds and skill level per group than 5v5 does.

But also we dont know what the gameplay consist of. Again as said already, if 15 vs 15 dont have a queue it will go the way of custom arenas, which most people dont play since they require organized premades which most people dont bother to do outside of GvGs and Dailies.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Zexanima.7851 said:Normally, if this were your average game dev company, I would assume it would have a queue. With seeing how much trouble Anet has with the current PvP queue system though...I don't have high hopes.

Thats what I fear. I can see the potential downfall of this new feature which many of us have been requesting for years now, all fall apart by Anet making the bad decision to not have a Queue for this feature.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

As far as I know Ben said there are alot of limitations to over come in doing a 15v15 and there priorities are not on that. If you read what he said he's very clear about anets goals in what was possible and what they couldn't do to make a 15v15 happen.

So saying "will be" is not correct....more like could be maybe.

I can garentee if if they do decide to work on a 15v15 UI it will take a long time. At least a year.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:As far as I know Ben said there are alot of limitations to over come in doing a 15v15 and there priorities are not on that. If you read what he said he's very clear about anets goals in what was possible and what they couldn't do to make a 15v15 happen.

So saying "will be" is not correct....more like could be maybe.

I can garentee if if they do decide to work on a 15v15 UI it will take a long time. At least a year.

What are you reading?

[Daishi.6027]

I 100% agree.

If there is no queue, it will fall to the bottom of a-nets billions of unused and unplayed servers and then I bet A-net will write it off as a failure. 2v2 is a good example.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:As far as I know Ben said there are alot of limitations to over come in doing a 15v15 and there priorities are not on that. If you read what he said he's very clear about anets goals in what was possible and what they couldn't do to make a 15v15 happen.

So saying "will be" is not correct....more like could be maybe.

I can garentee if if they do decide to work on a 15v15 UI it will take a long time. At least a year.

What are you reading?

Ben Phongluangtham.1065January 3, 2020@Dahkeus.8243 said:

» show previous quotes

Is this 15 v 15 map for Conquest or will >objectives be different in any way?

p.s. Thanks for all the work being put in >and for the communication on >progress. Looking forward to seeing the >fruits of the labor.

Just to be clear, we don't even have an internal target on the UI changes we feel are needed. It could still never happen. The only reason I've mentioned it is because we talked about the map/15v15 in the past so it's something already public and the map itself is done.

The map was a snow map that was just an open area for death match. We've talked about possibly doing more in-depth stuff, but the first map is going to be very simple. If it turns out that the UI changes are going to take a long while (or not get done at all) we may just release the map as 10v10 in custom arenas. Though, I'm not sure how much it would get played.

Everything above here seems to tell me that there's still alot of work to do so much so it may not happen. Don't get ur hopes up like you are.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

In brief, I'd like to see more reasons to integrate PvP/WvW into the players desires. Do I like that they're adding stuff, even if it's an unofficial "test"? Sure. I just think PvP/WvW rewards are among the first things to adjust along with a mode/map introduction.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:As far as I know Ben said there are alot of limitations to over come in doing a 15v15 and there priorities are not on that. If you read what he said he's very clear about anets goals in what was possible and what they couldn't do to make a 15v15 happen.

So saying "will be" is not correct....more like could be maybe.

I can garentee if if they do decide to work on a 15v15 UI it will take a long time. At least a year.

What are you reading?

Ben Phongluangtham.1065January 3, 2020@Dahkeus.8243 said:

» show previous quotes

Is this 15 v 15 map for Conquest or will >objectives be different in any way?

p.s. Thanks for all the work being put in >and for the communication on >progress. Looking forward to seeing the >fruits of the labor.

Just to be clear, we don't even have an internal target on the UI changes we feel are needed. It could still never happen. The only reason I've mentioned it is because we talked about the map/15v15 in the past so it's something already public and the map itself is done.

The map was a snow map that was just an open area for death match. We've talked about possibly doing more in-depth stuff, but the first map is going to be very simple. If it turns out that the UI changes are going to take a long while (or not get done at all) we may just release the map as 10v10 in custom arenas. Though, I'm not sure how much it would get played.

Everything above here seems to tell me that there's still alot of work to do so much so it may not happen. Don't get ur hopes up like you are.

Welp 5v5 forever it seem

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

15 vs 15 SPvP is not for the usual pvp players but for WvW guilds (or large pvp guilds which are counted on the fingers of the hands)

A GvG if you want.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:As far as I know Ben said there are alot of limitations to over come in doing a 15v15 and there priorities are not on that. If you read what he said he's very clear about anets goals in what was possible and what they couldn't do to make a 15v15 happen.

So saying "will be" is not correct....more like could be maybe.

I can garentee if if they do decide to work on a 15v15 UI it will take a long time. At least a year.

What are you reading?

Ben Phongluangtham.1065January 3, 2020@Dahkeus.8243 said:

» show previous quotes

Is this 15 v 15 map for Conquest or will >objectives be different in any way?

p.s. Thanks for all the work being put in >and for the communication on >progress. Looking forward to seeing the >fruits of the labor.

Just to be clear, we don't even have an internal target on the UI changes we feel are needed. It could still never happen. The only reason I've mentioned it is because we talked about the map/15v15 in the past so it's something already public and the map itself is done.

The map was a snow map that was just an open area for death match. We've talked about possibly doing more in-depth stuff, but the first map is going to be very simple. If it turns out that the UI changes are going to take a long while (or not get done at all) we may just release the map as 10v10 in custom arenas. Though, I'm not sure how much it would get played.

Everything above here seems to tell me that there's still alot of work to do so much so it may not happen. Don't get ur hopes up like you are.

Welp 5v5 forever it seem

Not necessarily, if the community shows it support for it I gotta believe the wheels for it will start turning. Keep it up. But I hate to see people with worthless hope. Just know I am with you and together as a community we can make this game better then it ever is.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:15 vs 15 SPvP is not for the usual pvp players but for WvW guilds (or large pvp guilds which are counted on the fingers of the hands)

A GvG if you want.

I dont play in Guilds yet I also want to enjoy 15 vs 15. Which is why not having a queue for this mode will leave it dead like all the other custom maps.

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:15 vs 15 SPvP is not for the usual pvp players but for WvW guilds (or large pvp guilds which are counted on the fingers of the hands)

A GvG if you want.

I dont play in Guilds yet I also want to enjoy 15 vs 15. Which is why not having a queue for this mode will leave it dead like all the other custom maps.

Well, imo it's a DeadBorn mode with or without queue, how many pvp guildes are there with more than 20 regulars contants ppl who connects every day ???

And queue, it's took sometimes 5 min to queue with 4 ppl in each team so 14..... unless anet change the queue algorithm.

Maybe i'm wrong, will see.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:15 vs 15 SPvP is not for the usual pvp players but for WvW guilds (or large pvp guilds which are counted on the fingers of the hands)

A GvG if you want.

I dont play in Guilds yet I also want to enjoy 15 vs 15. Which is why not having a queue for this mode will leave it dead like all the other custom maps.

Well, imo it's a DeadBorn mode with or without queue, how many pvp guildes are there with more than 20 regulars contants ppl who connects every day ???

And queue, it's took sometimes 5 min to queue with 4 ppl in each team so 14..... unless anet change the queue algorithm.

Maybe i'm wrong, will see.In the current relink cycle there are 21 guilds involved in the EU 15v15 GvG scene.That excludes the groups who do other scales where eg., 5v5's are carried out in GH, MLA and existing PvP maps that are less conducive to TDM gameplay.

That is also all the the new map is, it is just a new map, not a new mode. They are adding it to custom arenas only since they are not going to spend the time and effort to develop it into a fully supported mode as a full mode would not only need a queue but also a purpose (conditions, goals, rewards etc.).

All of this may seem small and insignificant but you need to keep in mind that the same subset of the playerbase is responsible for the vast majority of content in WvW as they are the communities supplying the majority of public commanders and the core of players that help commanders lead publically and make them less reliant upon (and thus frustrated by) anonymous, incompliant, casual players - ie., those communities also contain the players that let themselves be lead so that there is a reason to lead.

Those players are what drive the migrations and stacking of servers through that simple relationship of supplying commanders and players that the commanders wants to command as they let themselves be commanded. That is also how they overlap with other guilds or playergroups, outside of the 15v15 GvG scene, that are instrumental for content creation in WvW as a whole.

The active player count during daily prime is around 500. That too may seem small but by comparison is about 50% of all of GW2 Reddit that tends to sit around the 1k mark. None of that data says very much about any detail, I'm merely mentioning it to give you a frame of reference that while 21 or 500 may seem small, once you consider context and comparison it makes up quite a substantial subset of mass and content in the mode.

Another semi-useless metric would be to say that you'd only need 10-20 of those players to form a supportive core of a public 50-man squad so they could produce some 25-50 public tags. In reality they are only spread around 12 servers with more than half of them residing on 2 servers alone. Again, any real value to the metrics would consider how many of them wouldn't join a squad but also consider who in other groups that are still organized would, I'm only trying to give you a ballpark understanding of the potential should the mode be in better shape, more appealing to play and encouraging broader spread (through such a population balance and such access to maps) even with the shriveled remains of the WvW playerbase today.

Also, if you've never been involved in GvG you should know that the scene has suffered from issues with map issues and bugs, incompatible map physics, getting people onto maps or to match up and being subjected to trolls or crowd interference for as long as it has existed. That's why a simple PvP map makes sense in lieu of actually designing a full mode for those players (or others). So GH, MLA, EotM-A and OS all works rather poorly for their purpose.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:15 vs 15 SPvP is not for the usual pvp players but for WvW guilds (or large pvp guilds which are counted on the fingers of the hands)

A GvG if you want.

I dont play in Guilds yet I also want to enjoy 15 vs 15. Which is why not having a queue for this mode will leave it dead like all the other custom maps.

Well, imo it's a DeadBorn mode with or without queue, how many pvp guildes are there with more than 20 regulars contants ppl who connects every day ???

And queue, it's took sometimes 5 min to queue with 4 ppl in each team so 14..... unless anet change the queue algorithm.

Maybe i'm wrong, will see.

Well I use to play SPvP all the time in Vanilla. I don't play much anymore since HoT arenas system was added.

I am sure many others out there that also don't play SPvP because of the fact that there is no variety to the game modes beyond 5v5, which is something we been asking for since Vanilla, but instead got a Rating system they punish non meta gameplay.

[Luthan.5236]

I guess the queues would get longer. And more likely to not have a full team (more players with for each player having the possibility to disconnect early). But I'd really like to see such game mode. I like team play with medium sized teams and WvW seems too zergy and PvP is only 5 vs 5. Teams of 10-20 players are interesting.

A lot of other games with such setups are not MMORPG though. For shooter games it is common I think - where a hot join is possible. Might be harder (cause having more impact) to implement in a MMORPG. (Hotjoin I mean: Joining a running match getting in the team that atm has the lower amount of players and people can leave and join during the match.)

Soo many interesting maps ... Returning after a 6 years break I'm a bit sad that spiritwatch and temple of the silent storm are not that often in the queue - and if they are they never get chosen. I'd prefer queues for each map - at least for unranked. (Would make the times much longer though ... I guess.)

[Moradorin.6217]

I think it would be a mistake to have a que on 15 v 15 it would make the entire thing pointless because you would need a large number of people all trying to que at once for an alternate pvp mode which isn't going to happen reliably. On the contrary, a no que live running match with some decent automatic (not player opt in/out) team-balance system that maintains roughly equal teams as people come and go would make it like your typical FPS shooter map (like BF series) but within GW2 which could be fun. Sorta a little like wvw, but with pvp stats, objectives, etc and without being bound to a world.

Also I think allowing guilds to have access to a 15 v 15 or even to get to claim one once guild hall's arena is maxed or somthing to use for organized matches against other guilds would also sound potentially awesome, but Im not sure how much use it would see either just because many active players avoid pvp.

[viquing.8254]

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue".

I may be late to the party. Just saw the Anet post on the 15 vs 15 SPvP mode. Was excited, until I realized something. Most of the time Anet doesn't seem to understand why certain things work and why certain things don't, when it comes to SPvP in general.

We had 10v10 for years, but without a queue, it was left to dailies and organized pvp groups to use. And I am a causal so I don't have time to join an organized pvp guild to arrange groups.

This needs a queue if it's going to work. So solo players outside of pre-made groups can still join and play this game mode without the need to make premades like custom Arenas are.

2v2 information was introduced not long ago as well and that to was said to not have a queue. Not sure if that stance changed since then, but I don't want 15 vs 15 to go that route as well. It needs a queue.

We don't know what the game mode will consist of, but most of use won't even get that far to judge the game mode if it doesn't even have a queue for people that like that sort of thing to easily be able to join the mode without the need of organizing premades. I leave that stuff for GvGers which most of us are not GvGers.

Hint : it's just a feature for WvW players, particulary thoses who do GvG.Why ^put a 2h queue on it ?

[Knighthonor.4061]

@viquing.8254 said:

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue".

I may be late to the party. Just saw the Anet post on the 15 vs 15 SPvP mode. Was excited, until I realized something. Most of the time Anet doesn't seem to understand why certain things work and why certain things don't, when it comes to SPvP in general.

We had 10v10 for years, but without a queue, it was left to dailies and organized pvp groups to use. And I am a causal so I don't have time to join an organized pvp guild to arrange groups.

This needs a queue if it's going to work. So solo players outside of pre-made groups can still join and play this game mode without the need to make premades like custom Arenas are.

2v2 information was introduced not long ago as well and that to was said to not have a queue. Not sure if that stance changed since then, but I don't want 15 vs 15 to go that route as well. It needs a queue.

We don't know what the game mode will consist of, but most of use won't even get that far to judge the game mode if it doesn't even have a queue for people that like that sort of thing to easily be able to join the mode without the need of organizing premades. I leave that stuff for GvGers which most of us are not GvGers.

Hint : it's just a feature for WvW players, particulary thoses who do GvG.Why ^put a 2h queue on it ?

Why? Because 10v10 maps are custom and rarely fill up because it requires pre-made groups. I am a casual player, I don't do Guild Politics to do all that for a organized fight. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy larger group instanced Pvp. Right now nothing like it exist that allow you to queue up and join. If SPvP didn't have a queue at all it would have this same problem for 5v5 as well. The numbers don't matter. A queue is what easily gets players into matches.

[viquing.8254]

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue".

I may be late to the party. Just saw the Anet post on the 15 vs 15 SPvP mode. Was excited, until I realized something. Most of the time Anet doesn't seem to understand why certain things work and why certain things don't, when it comes to SPvP in general.

We had 10v10 for years, but without a queue, it was left to dailies and organized pvp groups to use. And I am a causal so I don't have time to join an organized pvp guild to arrange groups.

This needs a queue if it's going to work. So solo players outside of pre-made groups can still join and play this game mode without the need to make premades like custom Arenas are.

2v2 information was introduced not long ago as well and that to was said to not have a queue. Not sure if that stance changed since then, but I don't want 15 vs 15 to go that route as well. It needs a queue.

We don't know what the game mode will consist of, but most of use won't even get that far to judge the game mode if it doesn't even have a queue for people that like that sort of thing to easily be able to join the mode without the need of organizing premades. I leave that stuff for GvGers which most of us are not GvGers.

Hint : it's just a feature for WvW players, particulary thoses who do GvG.Why ^put a 2h queue on it ?

Why? Because 10v10 maps are custom and rarely fill up because it requires pre-made groups. I am a casual player, I don't do Guild Politics to do all that for a organized fight. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy larger group instanced Pvp. Right now nothing like it exist that allow you to queue up and join. If SPvP didn't have a queue at all it would have this same problem for 5v5 as well. The numbers don't matter. A queue is what easily gets players into matches.

This game is originaly balanced for 5v5 and actually PvP is hard in soloQ even in 5v5 because of lack of communication.5+ players who fight in a no coordinate fashion will just be a pain, and I'm not even talking about GWENR class versus other class. (Like a 10v10 with necro/gard/ele/war/rev versus a team full of thief/mesmer/ranger and other yolo little scale fight will not be fun at all.).So no a queue for this kind of thing isn't accurate. If you want gw2 PvP to be like WoW pvp large map, you will better change game because it will destroy how the game was core designed and everyone will be unhappy.

[Knighthonor.4061]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@Knighthonor.4061 said:The new 15 vs 15 SPvP will be useless to "most players" if it doesn't have a "queue".

I may be late to the party. Just saw the Anet post on the 15 vs 15 SPvP mode. Was excited, until I realized something. Most of the time Anet doesn't seem to understand why certain things work and why certain things don't, when it comes to SPvP in general.

We had 10v10 for years, but without a queue, it was left to dailies and organized pvp groups to use. And I am a causal so I don't have time to join an organized pvp guild to arrange groups.

This needs a queue if it's going to work. So solo players outside of pre-made groups can still join and play this game mode without the need to make premades like custom Arenas are.

2v2 information was introduced not long ago as well and that to was said to not have a queue. Not sure if that stance changed since then, but I don't want 15 vs 15 to go that route as well. It needs a queue.

We don't know what the game mode will consist of, but most of use won't even get that far to judge the game mode if it doesn't even have a queue for people that like that sort of thing to easily be able to join the mode without the need of organizing premades. I leave that stuff for GvGers which most of us are not GvGers.

Hint : it's just a feature for WvW players, particulary thoses who do GvG.Why ^put a 2h queue on it ?

Why? Because 10v10 maps are custom and rarely fill up because it requires pre-made groups. I am a casual player, I don't do Guild Politics to do all that for a organized fight. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy larger group instanced Pvp. Right now nothing like it exist that allow you to queue up and join. If SPvP didn't have a queue at all it would have this same problem for 5v5 as well. The numbers don't matter. A queue is what easily gets players into matches.

This game is originaly balanced for 5v5 and actually PvP is hard in soloQ even in 5v5 because of lack of communication.5+ players who fight in a no coordinate fashion will just be a pain, and I'm not even talking about GWENR class versus other class. (Like a 10v10 with necro/gard/ele/war/rev versus a team full of thief/mesmer/ranger and other yolo little scale fight will not be fun at all.).So no a queue for this kind of thing isn't accurate. If you want gw2 PvP to be like WoW pvp large map, you will better change game because it will destroy how the game was core designed and everyone will be unhappy.

I dont agree with this at all and don't see the relation between these two things you mentioned as counter arguments.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it won't have a q don't worry. the only mode anet cares about, they even stated it once, is conquest. so basically if you want a game with real pvp support/ focus go somewhere else.

[Bladestrom.6425]

I'm excited about 15 v 15, it's offering a middle ground between wvw and spvp. Wvw style skirmishes but with balanced team size and spvp skillets rather than having to deal with stupidly high glass dannon builds in wvw, or having to ride 30 miles to get back to the battlefront.

Its a different game mode, and that's something we desperately need.