About Merciful Intervention in WvW: from a roaming perspective

[DiscoJacen.1590]

Hello everyone!

With the recent changes and path the game seems to be taking, I figured it would be useful to leave here an honest impression from a POV you might not consider much when patching the game mode.This is not a rant, not a brag, just an observation.

We are ZERK a roaming guild on Underworld (EU).We have been roaming for 6/7 years and still enjoy it despite the numerous setbacks the gamemode suffered throughout the years. Being on Underworld (a really under-populated server) we quickly learned the value of being able to fight and troll larger groups. Not a brag, just a state of mind that comes after years of fighting together outnumbered. Synergy, as the big boys in marketing call it.We adapted through the various major changes, like the orb removal, the pve stuff that was removed-added-and removed again, the golem weeks, the repair hammers,The rev hammers, the chronomancer boontrains, the scourge trains, the warclaw wasting with the addition of the spear skill, etc etc. And it didn’t really bother us.

Recently there is a trend is WvW: the “healbrand”. Support guardians stuffed for healing. So far nothing out of the ordinary. Then we get to the part where they have “Merciful Intervention” equipped. Basically these guys have an instant rez button on a relatively short cooldown (considering our fights tend to last vs big stacking groups).

What it means for us:Like I said earlier we mostly fight outnumbered. So a lot of our efficiency is our ability to burst someone and stomp him before he can be rubbed good.; and thanks to that skill the big groups now get the first rez for free.So at first we adapted. In a 5v10, 1 of us would stay mounted to pounce on whoever got bursted down in the first few seconds (we see you in the backline with your full zerk gear). I don’t think this is what anyone had in mind when they added mounts, but this is how we are forced to use them.But ofc people aren’t stupid, now there is 2/3/4 “Healbrands” per blob. So now if we fight bigger groups they basically have 2/3/4 free res every 40secs!I don’t blame them, it's powerful there is no reason they shouldn't use it.But it’s just getting out of hand and near impossible to fight a group if we don’t match them in terms of numbers or elaborate strats based around pouncing on people. And again I really don’t think the warclaw is supposed to work that way (but sadly it’s our only solution atm).

That is the reason I decided to make this thread:A build being meta is one thing; but one skill is maybe a bit too much.

Once again, this is not a rant, just a different POV from the very crowded blob meta.I hope you can consider it when it comes to patching the game mode.

We will still enjoy WvW regardless

Thank you for reading

PS: Shoutout to all the people we fight with and against; you guys make the game fun!

[Len.1879]

I don’t think this is what anyone had in mind when they added mounts,And again I really don’t think the warclaw is supposed to work that way (but sadly it’s our only solution atm).I tend to disagree on that. It actually gives the players means to solve the "downstate bad!" dilemma, since they could do exactly what you are doing. I actually think micro tactics like this are way underrated, as it has become the state of the art to just have large groups clash and whoever is left wins. So I believe it was kind of intentional and if you have adapted to use it to your advantage, good on you!

On the other hand, it seems a bit weird that you are complaining about struggling when being outnumbered 2:1. Not saying you should not be able to win it if you outskill your opponents, but if it was easy, there would be something wrong with the game or your enemies.

[Fish.2769]

The problem is it's not roaming you're speaking about, it's havocing.

In a blob vs blob scenario MI isn't as 'powerful' as you may think it is due to the amount of damage being thrown around, sure it may save someone if used at the right time or it may even get the downed person AND the Guardian killed if used badly.

GW1 had a similar mechanic called 'Unyielding Aura' where a Monk would put a buff on someone and as soon as they died, they would get ported to the Monks position and ressed.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Off topic, you have a traitor in your guild... he runs condi

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Off topic, you have a traitor in your guild... he runs condiAnd many others seem to lack damage.

Anyway, this problem isnt new, its age old. While there are plenty of small roamer parties, as soon as groups go above 5 they instantly revert to "zerg" compositions. Not always zerg meta, but always with pocket healers - usually guards. When they approach 10, its at least 2 for every 5, and of course it only increase as the group grows, Assuming they are decent, these groups become practically impossible for smaller roamer groups to deal with due to those healers, you need either equal groups or 2-3x the numbers to cloud.

But the real question is... Is this something thats wrong?

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Well, like before you just adapted to it by mount stomping. I am a roamer myself and hate effing downstate but noone will listen to you here. Majority > minority and roamers are very small minority

[displayname.8315]

When your outnumbered that bad you might as well find a new game or pad the gem sales. The players want to keep it a pure numbers game that is painfully clear.

Just save those gems and keep an ear open for the next bandwagon destination I guess.

[Voltekka.2375]

Tbh, MI needs a huge nerf.

[DiscoJacen.1590]

I agree with all of you that logically attacking groups bigger than you should definitely not be easy^^The reason I mention MI specifically is that it made a HUGE difference recently compared to other skills or builds.Suddenly groups that we could win against (and after years, we all know each other^^) or at least down one or two players became untouchable

@Fish.2769 said:GW1 had a similar mechanic called 'Unyielding Aura' where a Monk would put a buff on someone and as soon as they died, they would get ported to the Monks position and ressed.Like you said, the mechanic makes sense.But in Gw1 that was an Elite enchantment that had a cost on the monk (mana regen wise) and could be dispelled. There were ways around it.It's much harder to counter MI.In the end I'm not saying MI is bad (like mentioned, in big blob fights it impacts less), just that maybe it could get a nerf (If I recall it got one in spvp) to make it less impactful on smaller fights.

As for the warclaw I am both curious and worried about the update coming.^^

[Shroud.2307]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Tbh, Firebrand needs a huge nerf.

FTFY

I don't know why FB has gotten away with being as obnoxious as it has for so long. It can fulfill any role; power, condition, support to great effect and pukes so much visual clutter that it is and has been far worse than Scourge or Aura Ele.

Not enough complaints about it to get it nerfed sooner though because anything that keeps you alive is a welcome friend to those who don't like to die.

I understand WvW is rife with obnoxious and OP builds but anything that can duo with any random build or profession and suddenly make it effectively immortal is extremely broken. No matter how good you are on a support Tempest, Scrapper or any other healing spec your partner can get pretty quickly overwhelmed in an outnumbered fight. Pair with a Firebrand and you can suddenly fight double/triple the numbers.

[XenesisII.1540]

My question is, was the instant 20% heal to downed health added(dec2017) to the skill in response to the increase in damage over two expansions? and should it then be removed with the big balance to lower damage coming up? Or should it have already been toned down like it was in spvp to 5%(also in dec2017).

[Len.1879]

@DiscoJacen.1590 said:I agree with all of you that logically attacking groups bigger than you should definitely not be easy^^The reason I mention MI specifically is that it made a HUGE difference recently compared to other skills or builds.Suddenly groups that we could win against (and after years, we all know each other^^) or at least down one or two players became untouchable

@"Fish.2769" said:GW1 had a similar mechanic called 'Unyielding Aura' where a Monk would put a buff on someone and as soon as they died, they would get ported to the Monks position and ressed.Like you said, the mechanic makes sense.But in Gw1 that was an Elite enchantment that had a cost on the monk (mana regen wise) and could be dispelled. There were ways around it.It's much harder to counter MI.In the end I'm not saying MI is bad (like mentioned, in big blob fights it impacts less), just that maybe it could get a nerf (If I recall it got one in spvp) to make it less impactful on smaller fights.

As for the warclaw I am both curious and worried about the update coming.^^

You probably already know that, but dropping Poison Fields on players in downstate can make a difference. Someone crunched the numbers on it a while ago. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9xpjbc/numbers_and_insights_into_merciful_intervention/

[RisenHowl.2419]

If you're going to fight bigger groups than you, you need to have a way to deal with MI. Bring a sb thief to spam poison fields or a class that can cook the downs so it's too hot to res

[Za Shaloc.3908]

If FB's want to rez like that, they should have to take Singet of Mercy and endure a cast time and a longer cooldown. MI is a toxic skill for this game mode in its current iteration, especially considering there is an invuln frame for downs. A good FB will exploit this and there's nothing you can do about them getting the rez off.

[Babytater.6803]

I understand where the OP is coming from but as a roamer/member of an organized fight guild I tend to disagree with most of what is being said here. MI is extremely strong but is really only keeping up to speed with the rest of the inflated skills. So like someone else said, maybe with the large balance/nerf patch coming up, it would be okay to tune down MI.My #1 concern is that they remove the Warclaw's ability to finish downs instantly. This really ruins the effects of even having a down state and makes for really boring gameplay. I'd only be okay if they remove the Warclaw stomp to nerf MI back down.

[subversiontwo.7501]

It's a bit disappointing that this thread has slid all over the place because I think @"DiscoJacen.1590" did a particularily good job framing the discussion when starting the thread. It is rare to see people taking the time to set a topic up so it can be argued within some reasonable "here's what we can talk about".

To get back to that: I think there are merits to discussing MI, especially after the changes where it got more of a res component. In the past, the port was just like a single res tick. After they lowered res ticks and gave the port a res component it feels as if the use of MI has become less balanced.

At the same time, using the mount stomp is hardly the only way to counter MI (or any other res effect, like the ones that have been around since vanilla). It is not just a question of scaling either. I mean, while I can appreciate that you guys have done small-medium stuff for a long time there are reasons why you rarely hear some of the better-known small-medium crews complain about ressing, MI, banners, illusions or whatever. There are also reasons why there is still a very prevalent use of Reapers and different Warrior builds in the scale and trade that you describe. Those groups simply have more tools at hand because they have mastered the arts of down-cleaves, down-traps, baiting out cooldowns, managing collective pressure and doing things like flash-stomps.

All of that stuff has been around for quite a long time by now but you rarely see it done outside some select groups. The same goes for weighting the comp you use. While it is true that most groups tend to diversify roles with healers and stuff when they hit about party size, there is also quite alot of difference between the groups that run larger-scale builds and the experienced groups that run far more collective offensive power in their comps. Firebrands are always pretty common of course thanks to the stab but there are still quite alot of offensive plays at smaller scale with classes like Rangers and Engineers there which may not necessarily run minstrel gear at that scale. Some groups do of course, but those select groups most often does not. That is part of why they get the superior cleave to overcome defensive plays by their opponents.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@DiscoJacen.1590 said:Hello everyone!

With the recent changes and path the game seems to be taking, I figured it would be useful to leave here an honest impression from a POV you might not consider much when patching the game mode.This is not a rant, not a brag, just an observation.

We are ZERK a roaming guild on Underworld (EU).We have been roaming for 6/7 years and still enjoy it despite the numerous setbacks the gamemode suffered throughout the years. Being on Underworld (a really under-populated server) we quickly learned the value of being able to fight and troll larger groups. Not a brag, just a state of mind that comes after years of fighting together outnumbered. Synergy, as the big boys in marketing call it.We adapted through the various major changes, like the orb removal, the pve stuff that was removed-added-and removed again, the golem weeks, the repair hammers,The rev hammers, the chronomancer boontrains, the scourge trains, the warclaw wasting with the addition of the spear skill, etc etc. And it didn’t really bother us.

Recently there is a trend is WvW: the “healbrand”. Support guardians stuffed for healing. So far nothing out of the ordinary. Then we get to the part where they have “Merciful Intervention” equipped. Basically these guys have an instant rez button on a relatively short cooldown (considering our fights tend to last vs big stacking groups).

What it means for us:Like I said earlier we mostly fight outnumbered. So a lot of our efficiency is our ability to burst someone and stomp him before he can be rubbed good.; and thanks to that skill the big groups now get the first rez for free.So at first we adapted. In a 5v10, 1 of us would stay mounted to pounce on whoever got bursted down in the first few seconds (we see you in the backline with your full zerk gear). I don’t think this is what anyone had in mind when they added mounts, but this is how we are forced to use them.But ofc people aren’t stupid, now there is 2/3/4 “Healbrands” per blob. So now if we fight bigger groups they basically have 2/3/4 free res every 40secs!I don’t blame them, it's powerful there is no reason they shouldn't use it.But it’s just getting out of hand and near impossible to fight a group if we don’t match them in terms of numbers or elaborate strats based around pouncing on people. And again I really don’t think the warclaw is supposed to work that way (but sadly it’s our only solution atm).

That is the reason I decided to make this thread:A build being meta is one thing; but one skill is maybe a bit too much.

Once again, this is not a rant, just a different POV from the very crowded blob meta.I hope you can consider it when it comes to patching the game mode.

We will still enjoy WvW regardless

Thank you for reading

PS: Shoutout to all the people we fight with and against; you guys make the game fun!

We fought at occasions and i fought many of your guildies and IT was fun

From a havock perspective: i cant agree more..its a a shitshow

[DiscoJacen.1590]

Seems we're getting a big nerf all around the board and MI is aligning to the spvp version (weaker revive).I guess we'll see how this plays out

[Hadi.6025]

Come to NA . I Will make you QQ needs a challenge.