mirage 1 dodge roll????serious

[storm.3120]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all cuz they won't rethink dodge while stunned. sad.Exactly. Thats the only change they should have done.Instead they nerfed everythign around the issue. Core got hit- SW2, core vigor on dueling, power block 3s icd lmao, staff got nuked. Just whatever

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Galeskyring.9617 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@"kounabi.4352" said:1 dodge roll!!!!!if the problem and the hate was for this 3 skillselusive mindinfinity horizondeceptive evasionthat trigger when mesmer dodge then do something about those traits dont remove 1 dodge from mirage..... add the nerf as a part of the trait, no make it permant.

Mirage cloak itself is the problem, those traits just made it worse. Being able to evade while performing other actions is insanely op in this game. 1 dodge might end up being a poor band-aid fix, but something needed to be done, and the pvp devs didnt have many options since they could only really change skill numbers and coefficients.

The idea that the pvp dev's didn't have options is entirely false. They have a number of times through the years both added and removed internal cool down's to traits, which is what they could and should have done to problem element's rather then removing a dodge from the profession.

Ammo didn't exist until more recent years, and yet it was added to skills when implemented too ability's and traits that had been around since launch and heart of thorn's. Exhaust likewise was created and added to "balance" some skills in recent years by subsequently nerfing some/all of the stamina regen for a set time after it was applied.

I meant for this overhaul patch they didnt have many options, they stated that the changes had to be mostly limited to coefficients and cd changes. Over the last couple years yeah there isnt really much of an excuse, pvp has just been neglected.

[Dadnir.5038]

I still don't understand why ANet hurt playability as a trade off. Each time an e-spec seem to be difficult for them to balance through their sacrosaint number tweaks, it's like they give up and just hurt QoL in order to disgust player from playing the spec.Chrono losing it's self shatter for no real reason.Scourge and it's meaningless change of the shade mechanism when the issue is and have always been the offensive/damaging nature of the shade skills.Mirage, now losing a dodge.What will be the next? The "trade off" they come up with are so ridiculous that I can't imagine worse and yet they manage to do it over and over again.

[bravan.3876]

How does it feel to play with one dodge guys? And how does Soulbeast feel with only one pet? And new Obsidian on Ele? xD I only shortly could test Necro so far.

But as i always said, the only problems Mirage caused where on Condi/Hybrid and that not because of the ability to dodge while stunned or to cover some cast (strong features for certain but not gamebreaking. Both features have counterplay and give opportunity of mindgames on both sides with that adding tactical deepness while barely lowering skill floor because still rewarding good Mirages way more for not eating the cc , also add tactical deepness to Mirages dodgemanagement because Mirage has so many ways to use dodges for, while it was already more limited in that resource than most other classes. With other words Mirage dodge management had high opportunity costs and harder decision making, ofc only as long as Mirage cannot dodge for days what wasn't the case anymore).

The only Mirage specific problems ever were the op and too passive designed condi clone ambushes and the normal autoattacks from condiclones. The other problem was a too good synergy with a briandead, passive and by itself already broken core traitline as there is Chaos. Good that the only condi chaosline op spec still gets 8s of vigor on f2 uses rofl. Will it be playable? No clue but if yes, then it will be more passive and more dodgespammy on cd than before and the more endurance reggen you add to a one dodge bar the more braindead spammy on cd the dodge management will get while still making pure offensive dodges for well timed active, reactive and tactical outplays via clone and Mesmers own ambushes impossible. Enjoy the spam and now even on Powermirage.

If you want a more skillful and less passive and less noobfriendly Mirage or Mesmer in general you need to rework or at least nerf Chaos (and Inpsiration otherwise they switch from Choas to Inspi) way more and finally cut Mirage problems at the roots (clone normal autoattacks and ambushes on condiweapons). Everything else is not causing the problems and can't be changed without deleting skill ceiling and making Mirage even more passive and dodgespammy anyway. ICDs on dodge traits like DE and IH do not make sense and i get tired of repeating myself because ppl always come up with the same stupid suggestions based on zero class and game knowledge. Also both traits are clearly the ones with the highest skill ceiling at the places you have to choose between them and the 2 other traits. But who cares, we just want the spec deleted fromt he game, doesn't matter if we kill all skill ceiling and floor with it then.

It is simple logic, even more surprising Anet doesn't even get that: When only one playstyle cause problems and you have ways of directly nerfing and fine adjusting ONLY the op build then you better do that, instead tar all builds with the same brush and overnerf the not op ones with a hammer overkill move.

There is no good reason for this change because you can easy compensate Mirages in PvE with just more dmg on ambush skills while nerfing normal clone autoattacks to nearly zero condi dmg and when you rework condi ambushes to something more active (more about effects and not just pure dmg, equally to sword and gs ambushes) or you just nerf the condi clone ambush dmg only in PvP and keep it in PvE.

Nothing of this would cause a big difference in playstyle between PvE and PvP as the insanely stupid one dodge change does, nothing of it would have overnerfed Powermirage builds as a spin-off, nothing of it would have made Mirage even more passive, nothing of it would have killed skill ceiling on several lvls of the spec. But why use a logical and senseful way when you can just butcher a whole spec or at least butcher gameplay flow and skill ceilling/ floor on it.

I just wait for them to remove jump dodging from the game and make casting while moving impossible. That way you can just make the whole game shit and clunky like crazy in 2 easy steps and not just slowly killing the game by making one spec after another clunky and unfun while not even solving the root balance problems of these specs. At least be consequential and end this mess fast.

Aside from these 3 outliners (Mirage dodge, Soulbeast, Obsidian) the patch felt not too bad on the first try. Some stuff might be too tanky but that needs more testing first.

[Bast.7253]

Mirage is trash now.

But that's alright, because now we have Warrior and Firebrand running around with infinite health regen, blocks, and cc.

Oh, and holo was barely touched.

Just delete mesmer from the game at this point. People are never going to stop complaining about it.

[bravan.3876]

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I still don't understand why ANet hurt playability as a trade off. Each time an e-spec seem to be difficult for them to balance through their sacrosaint number tweaks, it's like they give up and just hurt QoL in order to disgust player from playing the spec.Chrono losing it's self shatter for no real reason.Scourge and it's meaningless change of the shade mechanism when the issue is and have always been the offensive/damaging nature of the shade skills.Mirage, now losing a dodge.What will be the next? The "trade off" they come up with are so ridiculous that I can't imagine worse and yet they manage to do it over and over again.

Next they will remove jumpdodging and the ability to cast while moving. Enjoy the new GW2 gameplay flow at its best without the possibility to just switch to another not butchered or unfun clunky class :joy:

[Atille.5047]

I do hope someone upstairs reads it.

Mirage is horrendously overnerfed, and I can assure you - there's no reason to run it over Core whatsoever. Not only it lost it's dodge, it also lost amulets to bump up it's damage, and endured a giant shave to vigor/protection/condition duration at base. Please, can we hear why Daredevil, spec which relies on it's new dodge mechanic for DPS by adding buffs and attacks to it, has 3 dodges, while Mirage, spec which relies on it's dodges for DPS, gets one? Kill Infinite Horizon, but stop butchering the entire class for it's unfortunate existence. I'll go as far as to claim that Mesmer is currently the single worst class for PvP. No other has 2 useless elite specs. Speaking of second one;

Chrono - which I tried out of vague hope of it being usable - deals so little damage you can practically forget about using it for anything. Another butchered spec. I think you guys have forgotten that Chrono doesn't have IP anymore, yet you still slapped on same decrease in damage to Split Second - in Marauder amulet, you deal, like, 700 damage base on it. Also, nerfed Lost Time, making it even harder to capitalize on slow outside of Time Sink once every 40 seconds. Chronophatasma's old damage nerf coupled with further damage reduction to dual berserkers make the phantasms created by your main damage weapon (GS) tickle while wearing the glassiest power damage amulet, Berserker's. Irony. And that's forgetting that you can't shatter phantasms anymore, making your damage so back-loaded you're likely to die before your phantasms even turn to clones for shattering - because, you know, we don't have distortion either. So, no burst potential, no staying power and no significant buffing/sustain/healing for itself or teammates. Love that for us.

Chrono's in such a spot where autoattacking with GS is more effective than trying to use it's traits and shatters at all, unironically so. IP was a huge mistake, and so is 1 dodge. Here's how it'll go next: People will start whining about Inspiration and Blurred Inscriptions/heals on shatters, so you grind those up into a fine paste too, and there we go - only "viable" way to play is power core, except it's worse than any other power spec purely on a virtue of being a second-rate thief and only really excelling at +1'ing. Which is something rev, holo, warriors or lb slbs will do faster, more effectively, and without the risk of evaporating from a burst in their general direction.

As of now, nothing about Mesmer truly works, and it's a broken mess of a class, made this way because for nerfs you used everything but mesmer playerbase suggestions - we kinda seen the IH being a problem no matter what you nerf and do right off the bat, yet over the years (not months or weeks, years), you nerfed everything (making all builds worse) BUT Infinite Horizon. Acta est fabula, mesmers, go play a warrior or fb - these guys seem to be doing swell for years, unlike us. Or, you know, do what most of mesmer playerbase has done already. If anything's the final nail in our coffin, it's this patch.

[Moradorin.6217]

Yes, who ever is making the trade off changes should be relocated. Maybe they can sort and deliver the corporate mail instead and give the job to a programmer that has played the game and isnt a sadist perhaps. Just an idea!

[Moradorin.6217]

Maybe the real intention is to drive people away from the game to cut expenses.

[Zoser.7245]

Well, nothing can stop you to play Mirage when you want. You are free to play whatever you want. It's so easy. Use your solid alts and specializations of other professions to win matches/games and maintain or increase your rank. Then play you crippled Mirage for several games that obviosly you will lose in its status. Repeat. It's not about to lose on purpose, it's only that with your Mirage and rank, you can't win now. People was raging before even being carried. Lets them now rage because every match/game with a Mirage is a lost one and watch what happen in the upcoming balance patch notes.

If enough people play Mirage unable to win a single match, the rage from those before complaining against Mirage and related post here will only increase with the time as before, but in another sense.... It is not your fault if Mirage can't manage against the solid specializations and professions that other use. It'll be fun to watch those complainig against Mirage now claiming to developers for do something to make Mirage viable again to not lose every game where Mirage/Chronomancer is in their team and refuse to play Core or other thing if they ask you to do it, you are free to play what you want. If they want leave the games is their problem not yours. If you want to continue to play Mirage, of course. The alternative is abandon it like we did with Chronomancer, but as you watch, they don't care. They refuse to recognize their mistakes with Chronomancer. Lets see if losing always with Mirage due to its actual status works better. If Mirage is now cripple due to certain players whinning and devs listened their complaining, maybe they'll do again listening the same ones but in the opposite sense making it worth to play and fun again. Who knows... ;)

[crepuscular.9047]

I guess the underlining problem goes WAY back to programming days of Mirage (?) the intention was to replacing Dodge with Mirage Cloakbut they couldn't figure out how to really split it into two separate avoidance mechanic, so Mirage Cloak gains the benefit from dodge trait abilities (?)

[Curunen.8729]

To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

[Tayga.3192]

@Gogdarth.6741 said:Here's how it'll go next: People will start whining about Inspiration and Blurred Inscriptions/heals on shatters, so you grind those up into a fine paste too, and there we go

I've been playing this for months and if it gets nerfed I will seriously uninstall.

It's mesmer's last castle.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

At this point everyone should just lay their Mirages to rest next to Chrono, play them only in PvE if at all, and boycott them entirely in competitive modes (I mean do we have a choice?). Then Anet can ignore this foolish decision with actual usage stats to prove it. Mesmer: the only profession in the game with no viable e-specs in competitive.

Mesmer

Mirage

• We don't know what to do with this specialization so we are removing it from competitive play until further notice, if not indefinitely.

^FTFY. At least that would have been more upfront.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Gogdarth.6741 said:Here's how it'll go next: People will start whining about Inspiration and Blurred Inscriptions/heals on shatters, so you grind those up into a fine paste too, and there we go

I've been playing this for months and if it gets nerfed I will seriously uninstall.

It's mesmer's last castle.

this is core to my core mes build....no.....please

[bravan.3876]

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

On not a single class one dodge bar makes sense. There are reasons the minimum limit was 2 since game release. Not only on Mirage it would be stupid and lower skill ceiling in dodge management with only one dodge. Don't give Anet stupid ideas pls, not that they come up with the idea to give actually rly high sustain classes the same treatment...In particular in a game you have endurance reggen/ vigor (and not just one dodge popping up every x seconds, no matter when you use it). It forces a more spammy on cd, less reactive dodge behavior to not waste endurance reggen. And the more you compensate the one dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead and spammy on cd it will get. Also it forces ppl into more passive and low skill ceiling/ floor facetank sustain from defensive traitlines (in case of Mesmer Chaos or the non reactive spammy sustain from Inpsiration, Warrior would most likely switch to Defense again etc) and/ or to use broken mechanics like retargeting Illusionary Ambush to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain.

On Mirage then it is even double bad because it 100% prevents pure offensive dodges for well timed active and tactical ambush rewards, something that adds insane skill ceiling to the spec when ambushes are well designed (like sword for example). This is how this spec was supposed to work, active with high skill ceiling from high opportunity costs and hard decision making in dodge management. Now all ambushes (Mesmers own and from clones) will only be a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges or from dodgespam to avoid the waste of endurance reggen. There is a reason not even a handful Mesmers in the whole game played 2 dodges Powermirage even near its max potential.

The Mirage design itself is not that bad. They only failed in the condi clone ambush design (and they failed to finally balance condi dmg from core clones normal autoattacks). If you want to balance Mirage around being that overlimited in dodge resources then you need a completely other elite mechanic. For example give Mirage an f5 to command clones to do ambush attacks/get Mirage Cloak independent from Mirages endurance and independent from the dodge button. Would be way less interesting and lower skill ceiling because the whole tactical deepness in dodge management would be deleted (just as it is deleted now) but at least Mirage could time some ambushes only for the ambush effect itself then. I mean there is a reason why the other elite spec that is build around having way stronger dodges (Daredevil) got more dodges not less. If you want a class to do more with dodges than only evading attacks, it ofc should not be able to perma dodge and for harder dodge management should not have way more dodges than others but it also needs at least around the same amount than all other classes and not that much less (a bit less than it was before patch already was fine, now its just overkill in a way that deletes all skill ceiling and active usage of the elite mechanic). And that is just sad to see from my pov as someone wants more skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity in the game on all classes and not less.

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@"Cal Cohen.2358" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

The unlogic starts with: the amount of dodges a Mirage had access to pre patch was not the problem at all. They already had less dodges than most classes, the amount of dodges compared to effects and dmg on power weapons ambushes (Mesmers and clones) was not too much. Only the condi dmg on condi clones was too much. So just nerf that condi clone dmg for gods sake and don't mess with other stuff that doesn't cause the problem, will just delete skill ceiling and makes the spec more passive and not less passive and will hurt not op builds too and for that overnerf them.

[Zoser.7245]

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@Cal Cohen.2358 , @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly and with that you also balance the frequency you can use IH and the new Elusive Mind, for example, the pace/rhythm and your offensive/defensive capabilities based on dodges/ambushes. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

The other alternative we already mentioned before was tune down the damage from clones or Mirage from ambush attacks without enter in complex things with endurance, etc. And simply give back the second dodge. Although i believe that devs should have done already that now if they wanted unless they went out of time to do it and did or put a provisional band aid for now.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

[Zoser.7245]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

On not a single class one dodge bar makes sense. There are reasons the minimum limit was 2 since game release. Not only on Mirage it would be stupid and lower skill ceiling in dodge management with only one dodge. Don't give Anet stupid ideas pls, not that they come up with the idea to give actually rly high sustain classes the same treatment...In particular in a game you have endurance reggen/ vigor (and not just one dodge popping up every x seconds, no matter when you use it). It forces a more spammy on cd, less reactive dodge behavior to not waste endurance reggen. And the more you compensate the one dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead and spammy on cd it will get. Also it forces ppl into more passive and low skill ceiling/ floor facetank sustain from defensive traitlines (in case of Mesmer Chaos or the non reactive spammy sustain from Inpsiration, Warrior would most likely switch to Defense again etc) and/ or to use broken mechanics like retargeting Illusionary Ambush to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain.

On Mirage then it is even double bad because it 100% prevents pure offensive dodges for well timed active and tactical ambush rewards, something that adds insane skill ceiling to the spec when ambushes are well designed (like sword for example). This is how this spec was supposed to work, active with high skill ceiling from high opportunity costs and hard decision making in dodge management. Now all ambushes (Mesmers own and from clones) will only be a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges or from dodgespam to avoid the waste of endurance reggen. There is a reason not even a handful Mesmers in the whole game played 2 dodges Powermirage even near its max potential.

The Mirage design itself is not that bad. They only failed in the condi clone ambush design (and they failed to finally balance condi dmg from core clones normal autoattacks). If you want to balance Mirage around being that overlimited in dodge resources then you need a completely other elite mechanic. For example give Mirage an f5 to command clones to do ambush attacks/get Mirage Cloak independent from Mirages endurance and independent from the dodge button. Would be way less interesting and lower skill ceiling because the whole tactical deepness in dodge management would be deleted (just as it is deleted now) but at least Mirage could time some ambushes only for the ambush effect itself then. I mean there is a reason why the other elite spec that is build around having way stronger dodges (Daredevil) got more dodges not less. If you want a class to do more with dodges than only evading attacks, it ofc should not be able to perma dodge and for harder dodge management should not have way more dodges than others but it also needs at least around the same amount than all other classes and not that much less (a bit less than it was before patch already was fine, now its just overkill in a way that deletes all skill ceiling and active usage of the elite mechanic). And that is just sad to see from my pov as someone wants more skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity in the game on all classes and not less.

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@"Cal Cohen.2358" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

The unlogic starts with: the amount of dodges a Mirage had access to pre patch was not the problem at all. They already had less dodges than most classes, the amount of dodges compared to effects and dmg on power weapons ambushes (Mesmers and clones) was not too much. Only the condi dmg on condi clones was too much. So just nerf that condi clone dmg for gods sake and don't mess with other stuff that doesn't cause the problem, will just delete skill ceiling and makes the spec more passive and not less passive and will hurt not op builds too and for that overnerf them.

We already talked about balance IH and/or rework ambush attacks from clones/mirage but seems that they don't want to touch that so i was trying to find another solution. They already had enough time to balance ambushes and IH and they did not... So now i don't know if was due to do all ASAP and run out of time or they simply don't want to touch those traits and skills and other solution must be found to avoid be in the abyss where we are now. I only try to give alternatives and watch what they decide... IF they do something or like with the Chronomancer ignore all... We only can wait and see...

I remember several times since the release of the game about balance that we where talking that ohhh this must be a fast band aid to do this or that. Hopes , hopes.... But never were changed or addressed. So i'm not sure if the -50 endurance is a band aid until things are revised or is forever... Lets see what happen. Give alternatives is a thing that who knows it'll work this time. Do nothing could mean settle.

[duillyn.2697]

Oh I'll play something else alright

[bravan.3876]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

On not a single class one dodge bar makes sense. There are reasons the minimum limit was 2 since game release. Not only on Mirage it would be stupid and lower skill ceiling in dodge management with only one dodge. Don't give Anet stupid ideas pls, not that they come up with the idea to give actually rly high sustain classes the same treatment...In particular in a game you have endurance reggen/ vigor (and not just one dodge popping up every x seconds, no matter when you use it). It forces a more spammy on cd, less reactive dodge behavior to not waste endurance reggen. And the more you compensate the one dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead and spammy on cd it will get. Also it forces ppl into more passive and low skill ceiling/ floor facetank sustain from defensive traitlines (in case of Mesmer Chaos or the non reactive spammy sustain from Inpsiration, Warrior would most likely switch to Defense again etc) and/ or to use broken mechanics like retargeting Illusionary Ambush to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain.

On Mirage then it is even double bad because it 100% prevents pure offensive dodges for well timed active and tactical ambush rewards, something that adds insane skill ceiling to the spec when ambushes are well designed (like sword for example). This is how this spec was supposed to work, active with high skill ceiling from high opportunity costs and hard decision making in dodge management. Now all ambushes (Mesmers own and from clones) will only be a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges or from dodgespam to avoid the waste of endurance reggen. There is a reason not even a handful Mesmers in the whole game played 2 dodges Powermirage even near its max potential.

The Mirage design itself is not that bad. They only failed in the condi clone ambush design (and they failed to finally balance condi dmg from core clones normal autoattacks). If you want to balance Mirage around being that overlimited in dodge resources then you need a completely other elite mechanic. For example give Mirage an f5 to command clones to do ambush attacks/get Mirage Cloak independent from Mirages endurance and independent from the dodge button. Would be way less interesting and lower skill ceiling because the whole tactical deepness in dodge management would be deleted (just as it is deleted now) but at least Mirage could time some ambushes only for the ambush effect itself then. I mean there is a reason why the other elite spec that is build around having way stronger dodges (Daredevil) got more dodges not less. If you want a class to do more with dodges than only evading attacks, it ofc should not be able to perma dodge and for harder dodge management should not have way more dodges than others but it also needs at least around the same amount than all other classes and not that much less (a bit less than it was before patch already was fine, now its just overkill in a way that deletes all skill ceiling and active usage of the elite mechanic). And that is just sad to see from my pov as someone wants more skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity in the game on all classes and not less.

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@"Cal Cohen.2358" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

The unlogic starts with: the amount of dodges a Mirage had access to pre patch was not the problem at all. They already had less dodges than most classes, the amount of dodges compared to effects and dmg on power weapons ambushes (Mesmers and clones) was not too much. Only the condi dmg on condi clones was too much. So just nerf that condi clone dmg for gods sake and don't mess with other stuff that doesn't cause the problem, will just delete skill ceiling and makes the spec more passive and not less passive and will hurt not op builds too and for that overnerf them.

We already talked about balance IH and the damage from clones with the ambushes but seems that they don't want to touch that so i was trying to find another solution. They already had enough time to balance ambushes and IH and they did not... So now i don't know is was due to do all ASAP and run out of time or they simply don't want to touch those traits and skills and other solution must be found to avoid be in the abyss where we are now. I only try to give alternatives and watch what they decide... IF they do something or like with the Chronomancer ignore all... We only can wait and see...

IH doesn't have any effect on how much dmg ambushes from clones do. There is nothing to balance. All that needs to be done is either

1. REWORK condi ambushes as a whole (means also the Mesmers own ambushes because clones always use the same skill as the Mesmer has as ambush) to be more about utility and for that having less dmg, means more about effects then only about pure dmg (comparable to sword ambush or at least like gs). Effects need a different timing from pure defensive dodges to be timed well in 99% of all cases, so to play this spec near its skillcap and on high effective lvl it would force the player into reactive and well timed pure offensive dodges to actively hit ambush rewards for tactical outplays. This is what i would prefer, or at least

2. NERF condi clone ambushes (incl normal autoattacks from condi clones) dmg to an amount that hits a good equilibrium of being not too weak (so no player will ever think about doing a pure offensive dodge for it, means the dmg will only be a passive side effect but at least not op) and not too strong (means only dodging pure defensive is already enough reward and because of that a player doesn't need to waste a dodge pure offensive for it). If you are unsure where the equilibrium spectrum is, then make them too weak first (that is still passive, just as every dmg multiplier is kind of passive but less of a balance problem because at least not op) and give Mesmers more condi applications on shatters back first. Then carefully higher condi clone ambush dmg to a balanced lvl will force pure offensive dodges for active and reactive ambush uses.

The amount of dodges Mirage had doesn't need to be touched at all, it was on a balanced lvl pre patch already.

[Zoser.7245]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

On not a single class one dodge bar makes sense. There are reasons the minimum limit was 2 since game release. Not only on Mirage it would be stupid and lower skill ceiling in dodge management with only one dodge. Don't give Anet stupid ideas pls, not that they come up with the idea to give actually rly high sustain classes the same treatment...In particular in a game you have endurance reggen/ vigor (and not just one dodge popping up every x seconds, no matter when you use it). It forces a more spammy on cd, less reactive dodge behavior to not waste endurance reggen. And the more you compensate the one dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead and spammy on cd it will get. Also it forces ppl into more passive and low skill ceiling/ floor facetank sustain from defensive traitlines (in case of Mesmer Chaos or the non reactive spammy sustain from Inpsiration, Warrior would most likely switch to Defense again etc) and/ or to use broken mechanics like retargeting Illusionary Ambush to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain.

On Mirage then it is even double bad because it 100% prevents pure offensive dodges for well timed active and tactical ambush rewards, something that adds insane skill ceiling to the spec when ambushes are well designed (like sword for example). This is how this spec was supposed to work, active with high skill ceiling from high opportunity costs and hard decision making in dodge management. Now all ambushes (Mesmers own and from clones) will only be a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges or from dodgespam to avoid the waste of endurance reggen. There is a reason not even a handful Mesmers in the whole game played 2 dodges Powermirage even near its max potential.

The Mirage design itself is not that bad. They only failed in the condi clone ambush design (and they failed to finally balance condi dmg from core clones normal autoattacks). If you want to balance Mirage around being that overlimited in dodge resources then you need a completely other elite mechanic. For example give Mirage an f5 to command clones to do ambush attacks/get Mirage Cloak independent from Mirages endurance and independent from the dodge button. Would be way less interesting and lower skill ceiling because the whole tactical deepness in dodge management would be deleted (just as it is deleted now) but at least Mirage could time some ambushes only for the ambush effect itself then. I mean there is a reason why the other elite spec that is build around having way stronger dodges (Daredevil) got more dodges not less. If you want a class to do more with dodges than only evading attacks, it ofc should not be able to perma dodge and for harder dodge management should not have way more dodges than others but it also needs at least around the same amount than all other classes and not that much less (a bit less than it was before patch already was fine, now its just overkill in a way that deletes all skill ceiling and active usage of the elite mechanic). And that is just sad to see from my pov as someone wants more skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity in the game on all classes and not less.

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@"Cal Cohen.2358" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

The unlogic starts with: the amount of dodges a Mirage had access to pre patch was not the problem at all. They already had less dodges than most classes, the amount of dodges compared to effects and dmg on power weapons ambushes (Mesmers and clones) was not too much. Only the condi dmg on condi clones was too much. So just nerf that condi clone dmg for gods sake and don't mess with other stuff that doesn't cause the problem, will just delete skill ceiling and makes the spec more passive and not less passive and will hurt not op builds too and for that overnerf them.

We already talked about balance IH and the damage from clones with the ambushes but seems that they don't want to touch that so i was trying to find another solution. They already had enough time to balance ambushes and IH and they did not... So now i don't know is was due to do all ASAP and run out of time or they simply don't want to touch those traits and skills and other solution must be found to avoid be in the abyss where we are now. I only try to give alternatives and watch what they decide... IF they do something or like with the Chronomancer ignore all... We only can wait and see...

IH doesn't have any effect on how much dmg ambushes from clones do. There is nothing to balance. All that needs to be done is either

1. REWORK condi ambushes as a whole (means also the Mesmers own ambushes because clones always use the same skill as the Mesmer has as ambush) to be more about utility and for that having less dmg, means more about effects then only about pure dmg (comparable to sword ambush or at least like gs). Effects need a different timing from pure defensive dodges to be timed well in 99% of all cases, so to play this spec near its skillcap and on high effective lvl it would force the player into reactive and well timed pure offensive dodges to actively hit ambush rewards for tactical outplays. This is what i would prefer, or at least

2. NERF condi clone ambushes (incl normal autoattacks from condi clones) dmg to an amount that hits a good equilibrium of being not too weak (so no player will ever think about doing a pure offensive dodge for it, means the dmg will only be a passive side effect but at least not op) and not too strong (means only dodging pure defensive is already enough reward and because of that a player doesn't need to waste a dodge pure offensive for it). If you are unsure where the equilibrium spectrum is, then make them too weak first (that is still passive, just as every dmg multiplier is kind of passive but less of a balance problem because at least not op) and give Mesmers more condi applications on shatters back first. Then carefully higher condi clone ambush dmg to a balanced lvl will force pure offensive dodges for active and reactive ambush uses.

The amount of dodges Mirage had doesn't need to be touched at all, it was on a balanced lvl pre patch already.

I know, i wrote fast. We already warned them about rework ambush attacks too. They did nothing. All the ideas we can contribute are welcome because we don't know what they are willing to change or not.

[bravan.3876]

@Zoser.7245 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Zoser.7245 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

On not a single class one dodge bar makes sense. There are reasons the minimum limit was 2 since game release. Not only on Mirage it would be stupid and lower skill ceiling in dodge management with only one dodge. Don't give Anet stupid ideas pls, not that they come up with the idea to give actually rly high sustain classes the same treatment...In particular in a game you have endurance reggen/ vigor (and not just one dodge popping up every x seconds, no matter when you use it). It forces a more spammy on cd, less reactive dodge behavior to not waste endurance reggen. And the more you compensate the one dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead and spammy on cd it will get. Also it forces ppl into more passive and low skill ceiling/ floor facetank sustain from defensive traitlines (in case of Mesmer Chaos or the non reactive spammy sustain from Inpsiration, Warrior would most likely switch to Defense again etc) and/ or to use broken mechanics like retargeting Illusionary Ambush to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain.

On Mirage then it is even double bad because it 100% prevents pure offensive dodges for well timed active and tactical ambush rewards, something that adds insane skill ceiling to the spec when ambushes are well designed (like sword for example). This is how this spec was supposed to work, active with high skill ceiling from high opportunity costs and hard decision making in dodge management. Now all ambushes (Mesmers own and from clones) will only be a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges or from dodgespam to avoid the waste of endurance reggen. There is a reason not even a handful Mesmers in the whole game played 2 dodges Powermirage even near its max potential.

The Mirage design itself is not that bad. They only failed in the condi clone ambush design (and they failed to finally balance condi dmg from core clones normal autoattacks). If you want to balance Mirage around being that overlimited in dodge resources then you need a completely other elite mechanic. For example give Mirage an f5 to command clones to do ambush attacks/get Mirage Cloak independent from Mirages endurance and independent from the dodge button. Would be way less interesting and lower skill ceiling because the whole tactical deepness in dodge management would be deleted (just as it is deleted now) but at least Mirage could time some ambushes only for the ambush effect itself then. I mean there is a reason why the other elite spec that is build around having way stronger dodges (Daredevil) got more dodges not less. If you want a class to do more with dodges than only evading attacks, it ofc should not be able to perma dodge and for harder dodge management should not have way more dodges than others but it also needs at least around the same amount than all other classes and not that much less (a bit less than it was before patch already was fine, now its just overkill in a way that deletes all skill ceiling and active usage of the elite mechanic). And that is just sad to see from my pov as someone wants more skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity in the game on all classes and not less.

@Zoser.7245 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:To be honest I happen to like Mirage with 50 endurance - should have debut like this at pof launch. Single more powerful dodge at cost of losing half endurance.

But there is not enough support for this radical change - just like with Chrono losing IP and then letting it rot for what is closing in on a year... this is the problem. There needs to be swifter follow on to support such pivotal changes.

Ideally I would like to see:

• global 50 endurance for Mirage (PvE as well)
• return mirage cloak duration to 1 second
• increase vigour from Nomad's Endurance to 2s (up from 1.5s)
• reduce Jaunt charge cooldown to 20s (but keep at 2 charges in competitive)

That's just the start, obviously not dealing with clone ambushes which are the real issue (ie it doesn't matter that they changed Elusive Mind, because Mirage is terrible without Infinite Horizon), but I think this would go a long way to streamlining this change across all game modes, easing player transition between modes. There are further possibilities such as introducing a trait that refunds x endurance on hit of a player ambush, for example. But the above points I feel would be most beneficial first.

Hi!

@"Cal Cohen.2358" Please read this whole quote including Curunen and once all settle after some time think if something better can be done with Mirage. Thank you.

Instead of a single dodge and increased vigor i prefer bet for two dodges and a bigger endurance required for each dodge. For example 75 or testing a proper amount/number to balance the pace of the use of dodges/ambushes.

Have two dodges is very important for the first moments of a fight when a lot of things happen and are needed to survive and attack. Also if you use your mobility and utilities well. You can reload two dodges/ambushes as backup to counterattack or make a come back when you are outnumbered. Having a single dodge restricts too much and puts you in a clear position of inferiority to your opponents. Because they can do that and you not. Even refiling a single dodge faster will means that after sometimne you waste endurance recogery/vigor if you still don't need to use it pushing you to a disadvantage position. One thing is to balance and another is to overnerf...

Remove a dodge and call it a day is a bad idea, because it means cripple the basic mechanic of the specialization that is fundamental. Also what i watch looking into "Elusive Mind" is that they run out of ideas. That is not a grandmaster now. With a slower pace refilling endurance with an higher requirement like i commented, you can also profit to make it a real GrandMaster trait adding some sustain to that trait and letting Mirage be played more offensive with IH or more as a bruiser with sustain giving Mirage more divertity if you add to Elusive Mind something like:

" * Clean two conditions on dodge

• You also are healed for XX or XXX for every success ambush that hit your enemies". Or something similar related to ambushes.

Of course the amount of endurance required for each dodge must to be balanced to tune down the pace of refilling properly. But at least, will be a better balanced way to do it and not cripple and delete the specialization from competitive modes. I'm not sure is now we are the only profession without a single specialization worth to play in competitive.

Of course, if they need to balance something more aside the pace of refill the endurance it could be done, but not f**king all with a single or two changes like they did with Mirage Cloak without even turn on their brains a visualize that they had a really bad idea. It seems that if they had thought quickly without warming their heads.

But honestly, i don't know if giving them good ideas to solve it will work if we watch the null result with Chronomancer.... I only can hope that we are not already dismissed forever with Mirage. We will see....

The unlogic starts with: the amount of dodges a Mirage had access to pre patch was not the problem at all. They already had less dodges than most classes, the amount of dodges compared to effects and dmg on power weapons ambushes (Mesmers and clones) was not too much. Only the condi dmg on condi clones was too much. So just nerf that condi clone dmg for gods sake and don't mess with other stuff that doesn't cause the problem, will just delete skill ceiling and makes the spec more passive and not less passive and will hurt not op builds too and for that overnerf them.

We already talked about balance IH and the damage from clones with the ambushes but seems that they don't want to touch that so i was trying to find another solution. They already had enough time to balance ambushes and IH and they did not... So now i don't know is was due to do all ASAP and run out of time or they simply don't want to touch those traits and skills and other solution must be found to avoid be in the abyss where we are now. I only try to give alternatives and watch what they decide... IF they do something or like with the Chronomancer ignore all... We only can wait and see...

IH doesn't have any effect on how much dmg ambushes from clones do. There is nothing to balance. All that needs to be done is either

1. REWORK condi ambushes as a whole (means also the Mesmers own ambushes because clones always use the same skill as the Mesmer has as ambush) to be more about utility and for that having less dmg, means more about effects then only about pure dmg (comparable to sword ambush or at least like gs). Effects need a different timing from pure defensive dodges to be timed well in 99% of all cases, so to play this spec near its skillcap and on high effective lvl it would force the player into reactive and well timed pure offensive dodges to actively hit ambush rewards for tactical outplays. This is what i would prefer, or at least

2. NERF condi clone ambushes (incl normal autoattacks from condi clones) dmg to an amount that hits a good equilibrium of being not too weak (so no player will ever think about doing a pure offensive dodge for it, means the dmg will only be a passive side effect but at least not op) and not too strong (means only dodging pure defensive is already enough reward and because of that a player doesn't need to waste a dodge pure offensive for it). If you are unsure where the equilibrium spectrum is, then make them too weak first (that is still passive, just as every dmg multiplier is kind of passive but less of a balance problem because at least not op) and give Mesmers more condi applications on shatters back first. Then carefully higher condi clone ambush dmg to a balanced lvl will force pure offensive dodges for active and reactive ambush uses.

The amount of dodges Mirage had doesn't need to be touched at all, it was on a balanced lvl pre patch already.

I know, i wrote fast. We already warned them about rework ambush attacks too. They did nothing. All the ideas we can contribute are welcome because we don't know what they are willing to change or not.

We meant the same then, my bad for misunderstanding you.I guess happens because i am so used to read the same stupid and based on zero game and class knowledge suggestions like "give IH or DE an ICD or delete IH", even though i explained 100000000000 times already why this doesn't make sense at all xD Actually triggers me.

[Hot Boy.7138]

having a max of 50 endurance is too heavy of a nerf. this needs to get reverted.

[Tulkas.2576]

50 endurance is much worse than I thought it'd be...Thats about all I have to say.

[James.1065]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Lost Elegy.9276" said:Awww, a mesmer is mad that their infinite invulnerability chain was nerfed. Poor baby.So, according to you having 2 evades equals to have infinite invulnerability chain, even quadriplefacepalm wont be enough here

Sounds like one of those players that believe it was ok to keep mesmer untouchable in battle while reapers were kept naked of all blocks, evades, invunerbility and mobility because "It had a 2nd life bar".

The wheel of fortunes has turned my friend, get used to karma in the form of core necro!