Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Shadow.1345]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

flies away. keep whining on mirage fam

I main Mirage and I am supporting the nerf. You are whining about the nerf so keep whining about Mirage and Spellbreaker fam.

[Shadow.1345]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Damned mesmers, ANerf's favourite child.

And still meta after every one of those nerfs. Don't argue, you know it's true.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

I told you what still need nerfs on Mirage itself, no clue why you just ignore that. To keep up your biased hate on MC i guess?

I main mesmer and play condimirage as stated before. I guess you forgot that in your knee-jerk reaction to call me "racist" against Mirage Cloak. How cute of you.

Don't exchange words with different meanings to try to make a point (which ever point that may be).

biasedadjectiveadjective: biased

unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something.is not the same as:racistnounnoun: racist; plural noun: racists

a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another.

which is a specific type of bias and in general yields a far more negative connotation. You can't be racist against something which is not a person.

There is absolutely no reason to bring race into this discussion and no room for such terminology.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

I told you what still need nerfs on Mirage itself, no clue why you just ignore that. To keep up your biased hate on MC i guess?

I main mesmer and play condimirage as stated before. I guess you forgot that in your knee-jerk reaction to call me "racist" against Mirage Cloak. How cute of you.Where did i call you racist???I just overlooked that you said you don't think MC is byond broken, that is why i already changed and deleted this part form my post before your answer was posted (you were too fast with quoting). Still it was not a knee jerk argument, it was just the only reason i could imagine for thinking about the topic that weird and ignoring my arguments by making it look like i only want to nerf core. But you are not the first and only Mesmer main having weird knowledge and opions about your own class (i am also pretty sure some of them just trying to pretend they are Mesmer mains to make their arguments look less biased, while their insane lack of class knowledge makes it quite obvious, no clue what is the case with you). The way you act and answer to my stuff is somehow weird, at least from my point of view looking for skillful balance on all classes without overnerfing anything and without unnecessary deleting skill ceiling and make classes clunky. I am for sure the first calling op and noobcarry stuff out, on no matter what class.

The too passive designed and op condi ambushes clearly needs nerf or better rework. I also explained to you very well why the one dodge nerf doesn't even add skill ceiling to the Mirage spec. So even if MC woudl be as broken as you think it is, the one dodge change doesn't even solve the problem. I also explained what outside of Mirage causes balance problems.

If all that is true then just play condimesmer and let the numbers prove you right to ANet because winning an argument against me doesn't do anything to change anything.

The problem with nerfing condiambush is that is nerfing condiambush to make up for Infinite Horizon. Even though Infinite Horizon is the meta currently, it wasn't always. The simplest way to fix it is to fix the root of the problem which is Mirage Cloak. That's not even to mention that they did nerf condition damage all around by removal of amulets with Expertise to reduce the size of stacks through the reduction of condition time. Again this is asking to nerf anything beside Mirage Cloak which is really telling.

I also addressed the skill ceiling argument. You can spam it if you want or you can use it wisely. Before with 100 endurance you could spam it at 100 endurance and keep one in the pocket for using it wisely. Now you have to make a decision.

Even core Mes with Chaosline was noobfriendly braindead and unhealthy. Chaosline is a balance problem since game release. It is passive and very low skill ceiling and would need a rework and more nerfs even when Mirage would be deleted from the game. Also that condi clones do way more dmg with their normal autoattacks (what is completely passive condi pressure for free on all Mesmer specs for no good reason) compared to power clones never made any sense and caused imbalance from all condi Mesmer specs compared to power Mesmer specs. Bronze propaganda like never nerf core only nerf elites is narrowed and stupid, eltie builds are usign 2 core traitlines and they do not stand by themself alone. Coretraitlines and elites interact and influence each other. You need to nerf the roots of the problems and when they are in core traitlines you nerf core. If they are in elite traitlines you nerf the elite problems. I told you for core and elite what needs nerfs you narrowed just say don't nerf core.

They did nerf Chaos. The passive regen was cut in half. Boon and condition duration per boon was cut in half. Protection from Chaos Aura was reduced by 1/3. Expertise reduced by 8%. Also condition Mesmer was never really a thing until Mirage. It was always about power so the argument that it is about condition clones doesn't really hold up. The only core build right now are power. Where it the core condi build at?

They didn't nerf it enough and instead nerfing it to a lvl it will not get used anymore they just should rework it into a more active defensive traitline with higher skill ceiling.

But no logic can fight narrowness so i stop trying here.

Can't wait for the first complains of ppl will get rekt by even more toxic and braindead and easier to play Mirage builds, in case there will be some viable ones xD Popcorn is prepared already

If that is true then why are you crying about the endurance nerf?

That question shows that you have not understand anything from what i explained. Sad :disappointed:

[infinitet.7546]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

I told you what still need nerfs on Mirage itself, no clue why you just ignore that. To keep up your biased hate on MC i guess?

I main mesmer and play condimirage as stated before. I guess you forgot that in your knee-jerk reaction to call me "racist" against Mirage Cloak. How cute of you.

The too passive designed and op condi ambushes clearly needs nerf or better rework. I also explained to you very well why the one dodge nerf doesn't even add skill ceiling to the Mirage spec. So even if MC woudl be as broken as you think it is, the one dodge change doesn't even solve the problem. I also explained what outside of Mirage causes balance problems.

If all that is true then just play condimesmer and let the numbers prove you right to ANet because winning an argument against me doesn't do anything to change anything.

The problem with nerfing condiambush is that is nerfing condiambush to make up for Infinite Horizon. Even though Infinite Horizon is the meta currently, it wasn't always. The simplest way to fix it is to fix the root of the problem which is Mirage Cloak. That's not even to mention that they did nerf condition damage all around by removal of amulets with Expertise to reduce the size of stacks through the reduction of condition time. Again this is asking to nerf anything beside Mirage Cloak which is really telling.

I also addressed the skill ceiling argument. You can spam it if you want or you can use it wisely. Before with 100 endurance you could spam it at 100 endurance and keep one in the pocket for using it wisely. Now you have to make a decision.

Even core Mes with Chaosline was noobfriendly braindead and unhealthy. Chaosline is a balance problem since game release. It is passive and very low skill ceiling and would need a rework and more nerfs even when Mirage would be deleted from the game. Also that condi clones do way more dmg with their normal autoattacks (what is completely passive condi pressure for free on all Mesmer specs for no good reason) compared to power clones never made any sense and caused imbalance from all condi Mesmer specs compared to power Mesmer specs. Bronze propaganda like never nerf core only nerf elites is narrowed and stupid, eltie builds are usign 2 core traitlines and they do not stand by themself alone. Coretraitlines and elites interact and influence each other. You need to nerf the roots of the problems and when they are in core traitlines you nerf core. If they are in elite traitlines you nerf the elite problems. I told you for core and elite what needs nerfs you narrowed just say don't nerf core.

They did nerf Chaos. The passive regen was cut in half. Boon and condition duration per boon was cut in half. Protection from Chaos Aura was reduced by 1/3. Expertise reduced by 8%. Also condition Mesmer was never really a thing until Mirage. It was always about power so the argument that it is about condition clones doesn't really hold up. The only core build right now are power. Where it the core condi build at?

But no logic can fight narrowness so i stop trying here.

Can't wait for the first complains of ppl will get rekt by even more toxic and braindead and easier to play Mirage builds, in case there will be some viable ones xD Popcorn is prepared already

If that is true then why are you crying about the endurance nerf?

Shadow my friend you really dont seem to understand Mirage or its history. IH was always part of meta for Mirage. The only point at which people used anything else was in the very early days when it had allot more vigor, stability, condi stacks, and actual impactfull shatters. Back before all the damage was moved from phants to clones. Its apples and oranges. For real.

Back when PoF was new some people ran Elusive Mind because it was a nice crutch for dealing with condi and stuns. This is what got Mirage the reputation of being unhitable and being too hard to cc. Even after EM was changed and basically deleted people continued to make these assertions commonly because, you know, who cares about facts in 2020.

Even when EM was at its peak, top tier Mesmers DIDN'T USE IT. Top tier Mesmers have always used IH. In other words, IH always has been the meta. The condi mirage meta for a long time was illusions, dueling, mirage. It changed to Chaos due to other nerfs to mobility that pushed mirage over to chaos for super speed and CI. Then when CI was deleted people stayed on Chaos to keep mobility to side node.

The change to give Mirage 1 dodge is a horrible change. It doesnt improve play quality and just takes the design in a hopeless direction. As Braven, Moradorin and others keep pointing out Mirage needs 2 dodges, mirage cloak and IH all made baseline. Then Ambush damage and effects need to be adjusted for each weapon's ambush and made to scale with number of clones. The core damage on weapons used by core shouldn't keep getting nerfed. Shatters shouldn't keep getting nerfed.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

That question shows that you have not understand anything from what i explained. Sad :disappointed:

I'm sorry I was wrong. You are superior to me and I will defer to your superior judgement instead of having thoughts of my own.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

[storm.3120]

@infinitet.7546 said:^Thats pretty accurate, I'm surprised someone does know whats up.But IMO mirage was pushed into chaos when vigor was gutted. No vigor = no evades= tanking billion damage on glassy spec? Bad idea (also shatter were nerfed)

[Shadow.1345]

@infinitet.7546 said:

Back when PoF was new some people ran Elusive Mind because it was a nice crutch for dealing with condi and stuns. This is what got Mirage the reputation of being unhitable and being too hard to cc. Even after EM was changed and basically deleted people continued to make these assertions commonly because, you know, who cares about facts in 2020.

I recall things differently. I remember people used to say nobody ran it because it was easy to dodge the ambush but I guess I am wrong. Sorry I will defer to your superior knowledge because I guess I am just a dumbass.

[bravan.3876]

@infinitet.7546 said:

Back when PoF was new some people ran Elusive Mind because it was a nice crutch for dealing with condi and stuns. This is what got Mirage the reputation of being unhitable and being too hard to cc. Even after EM was changed and basically deleted people continued to make these assertions commonly because, you know, who cares about facts in 2020.

@Shadow.1345 said:I recall things differently. I remember people used to say nobody ran it because it was easy to dodge the ambush but I guess I am wrong. Sorry I will defer to your superior knowledge because I guess I am just a kitten.

No that is actually true, ppl were running EM instead IH for quite a long time after PoF release. That changed when Blinding Diss+Ineptitude synergy and condi shatter traits were nerfed several times and EM got exhaustion nerf. I actually remember only one Powermesmer running IH with DE right from start and not a single Condimesmer and that for months.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

Yep seems so. Actually good for me, no need to write wall of text anymore^^

[infinitet.7546]

@bravan.3876 said:

@infinitet.7546 said:

Back when PoF was new some people ran Elusive Mind because it was a nice crutch for dealing with condi and stuns. This is what got Mirage the reputation of being unhitable and being too hard to cc. Even after EM was changed and basically deleted people continued to make these assertions commonly because, you know, who cares about facts in 2020.

@Shadow.1345 said:I recall things differently. I remember people used to say nobody ran it because it was easy to dodge the ambush but I guess I am wrong. Sorry I will defer to your superior knowledge because I guess I am just a kitten.

No that is actually true, ppl were running EM instead IH for quite a long time after PoF release. That changed when Blinding Diss+Ineptitude synergy and condi shatter traits were nerfed several times and EM got exhaustion nerf. I actually remember only one Powermesmer running IH with DE right from start and not a single Condimesmer and that for months.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

Yep seems so. Actually good for me, no need to write wall of text anymore^^

I remember allot of top players who ran mirage using IH instead of EM basically because they knew you could still dodge while cced and it provided cc and/or damage for power/condi mirage. That said, yea most people used EM on power and condi mirage when PoF first came out due to the promise of easy stun break and condi cleanse on tap.

[bravan.3876]

@infinitet.7546 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@infinitet.7546 said:

Back when PoF was new some people ran Elusive Mind because it was a nice crutch for dealing with condi and stuns. This is what got Mirage the reputation of being unhitable and being too hard to cc. Even after EM was changed and basically deleted people continued to make these assertions commonly because, you know, who cares about facts in 2020.

@Shadow.1345 said:I recall things differently. I remember people used to say nobody ran it because it was easy to dodge the ambush but I guess I am wrong. Sorry I will defer to your superior knowledge because I guess I am just a kitten.

No that is actually true, ppl were running EM instead IH for quite a long time after PoF release. That changed when Blinding Diss+Ineptitude synergy and condi shatter traits were nerfed several times and EM got exhaustion nerf. I actually remember only one Powermesmer running IH with DE right from start and not a single Condimesmer and that for months.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

Yep seems so. Actually good for me, no need to write wall of text anymore^^

I remember allot of top players who ran mirage using IH instead of EM basically because they knew you could still dodge while cced and it provided cc and/or damage for power/condi mirage. I also recall that it wasnt something people went blerting out in map chat, so to speak, as a suggestion though like EM. That said, yea most people used EM on power and condi mirage when PoF first came out due to the promise of easy stun break and condi cleanse on tap.

But that was later that they switched, on every stream you saw the meta condi build for Mirage was with EM on every top Mesmer playing meta condi and that for months after PoF release. Power was not meta (in EU at least) but when played and also in NA it always was with EM. Very funny was, Helseth didn't even know Mirage can still dodge while stunned just not breaking stun without EM for like one year after PoF release. I had a good laugh when he finally got that in one of his streams. That is why i say, not even most Mesmer mains understand their own elite spec xD

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

No that is actually true, ppl were running EM instead IH for quite a long time after PoF release. That changed when Blinding Diss+Ineptitude synergy and condi shatter traits were nerfed several times and EM got exhaustion nerf. I actually remember only one Powermesmer running IH with DE right from start and not a single Condimesmer and that for months.

That's what I thought.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

Yep seems so. Actually good for me, no need to write wall of text anymore^^

I'm actually not trolling you. I was having a civil discussion with you. If you look back I never call you names or put you down other than the part where you accused me of bias and I responded back. Look we have a difference in opinion on this and that is fine. I have been listening to your side of the argument which is proven by me responding to your points. Though, it does seem like me not agreeing with you is being taken as me being stupid or not listening to you. That's really not a very civil way to have a discussion imo.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

No that is actually true, ppl were running EM instead IH for quite a long time after PoF release. That changed when Blinding Diss+Ineptitude synergy and condi shatter traits were nerfed several times and EM got exhaustion nerf. I actually remember only one Powermesmer running IH with DE right from start and not a single Condimesmer and that for months.

That's what I thought.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876 hes just trolling.let him be

Yep seems so. Actually good for me, no need to write wall of text anymore^^

I'm actually not trolling you. I was having a civil discussion with you. If you look back I never call you names or put you down other than the part where you accused me of bias and I responded back. Look we have a difference in opinion on this and that is fine. I have been listening to your side of the argument which is proven by me responding to your points. Though, it does seem like me not agreeing with you is being taken as me being stupid or not listening to you. That's really not a very civil way to have a discussion imo.

The way you picked some arguments and ignored some other arguments made it feel like it. Also arguing weird and then bringing up a question rly makes clear that you didn't understand or more it felt like you don't want to understand, made it feel a bit trolly for some ppl it seems (incl myself). It is up to you to decide if we just missunderstood you and got a false impression or if you maybe acted in an unlucky way or if the reason rly just is, that you simply didn't understand what i wrote even though you read it focused and serious. Maybe it was a receiver or a submitter problem in our communication. If you say you do not troll i will believe you.

On the other side it wasn't trolling or denunciating meant by me to say that you obviously didn't rly understand what i wrote. It wasn't trolling or insulting from my part to come to the conclusion that you rly didn't understand me at all (your last question rly made that clear, that is no tactic from me). I am just too tired from writing a lot of wall of texts, often the same kitten to each single person, because it seems ppl do not check forum if something they want to say was discussed already. So they start every discussion from zero. It is annoying and exhausting. So at this point i only see 2 different ways we can go from now: You re-read and try to understand why your last question didn't make sense (when you understand that you most likely will understand all i wrote to MC) or we can agree to disagree from a point where i do not rly feel as if you did understand anything, but that would be fine for me, i don't need to convince you. I will also not be mad at you. No hard feelings here, i swear.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

I believe you aren't trying to be mean or anything. I am not ignoring your arguments and cherry picking. For one I am at work and responding to you while doing other things at the same time so my attention is split. Also I am answering more in general than addressing every single word. I am hearing your argument I just don't agree because I think if it was just condi and Chaos line alone then there would be a condicore build but the only core build is still power shatter. I think if Mirage is the problem then Mirage needs to be fixed. Either way, you have your thoughts and I have mine. In the end it doesn't treally matter because ANet doesn't make decisions based on the forums alone. They make them largely based on data they collect. The real way to convince them to revert the endurance nerf is for it to be proven to be way underpowered in PvP through actual game play but I have to say from playing Mirage since the patch it's still playable in 5v5 unranked. I haven't tried 2v2 yet but 2v2 DM has always been different than 5v5 Conquest.

On a side note: If you are tired of typing walls of text to everyone then just make a google doc and copy paste your arguments for easier arguing.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Xca.9721 said:I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release

Way to show everyone you know absolutely nothing about the subject matter, bro. LoL

[DoRi Silvia.4159]

All I can say is good riddance it was one of those bs classes that had access to too many sustain and dodges while putting out bs load of condi dmg. YESSSSS /cheer

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

I believe you aren't trying to be mean or anything. I am not ignoring your arguments and cherry picking. For one I am at work and responding to you while doing other things at the same time so my attention is split. Also I am answering more in general than addressing every single word. I am hearing your argument I just don't agree because I think if it was just condi and Chaos line alone then there would be a condicore build but the only core build is still power shatter. I think if Mirage is the problem then Mirage needs to be fixed. Either way, you have your thoughts and I have mine. In the end it doesn't treally matter because ANet doesn't make decisions based on the forums alone. They make them largely based on data they collect. The real way to convince them to revert the endurance nerf is for it to be proven to be way underpowered in PvP through actual game play but I have to say from playing Mirage since the patch it's still playable in 5v5 unranked. I haven't tried 2v2 yet but 2v2 DM has always been different than 5v5 Conquest.

Ok got it. Being half at work and half in forum is something i often do myself.

Core condi doesn't have condi ambushes in addition to normal clone autoattacks and weaponskills to apply condis, so ofc Mirage was picked over core (no Mesmer spec can do decent condi dmg with shatters anymore, the best chance would have Chrono but...). They overnerfed all shatter traits and other core traits in terms of condiapplication for the sake of not touching Mirages condi ambushes. And they still didn't do it last patch. They only nerfed them indirectly while nerfing core traits like Sharper Images and reducing condi duration by removing amulets. So here your argument that "nerfing core condi application instead problematic Mirage skills is a bad move" would make sense.

And still, without Chaosline not even that passive condispam Mirage spec would have been meta. While Chaosline can even push a core power build into viability. Choasline is in general by itself (means not only in addition with Mirage) a too passive, too mistake friendly facetank sustain providing traitline only provides spammy gameplay instead reactive gameplay (for example the only boon a Mesmer can reactively work with is the stability on BD). Chaosline itself is broken (still), too passive and too low skill ceiling. It makes any Mesmer spec super easy to play and is unhealthy for a skillful balance. Just like the fact that condi clones do insane passive dmg on their normal autoattacks already for no reason (power clones compared to that do nearly zero dmg).

So yes, nerfing condi ambush skills (or better rework them) and give condi dmg back to the Mesmer itself instead on passive clone skills is the one and only thing needed to be done, to give Condiplayers an option to play other specs not only Mirage on condi and to turn Mirage into a less passive condi clone spam spec but more into an active shatter spec again.

But that is not even my point. My point is the basic and simple balance logic why a 2 dodge bar in general (not only on Mirage/ Mesmer) has way more skill ceiling in a combat system like GW2 (otherwise Anet could have made a 1 dodge bar for all classes since game release in 2012) and why adding more endurance reggen and longer vigor uptime to compensate for the limited dodge bar will make the dodge behavior then even less skillful and more spammy. On Mirage it is even a double dumb down and leads into a more passive playstyle because it makes pure offensive dodges to actively and reactively hit well timed effects from ambushes on the target completely impossible while not even solving the too passive nature of the condiapplication from the wrong designed, op condi clone ambushes. I already wrote a wall of text explaining that more in detail. I rly don't want to do it again. You can just check my comment in this and other threads (and also my trade off thread) for more details and explanations.

On a side note: If you are tired of typing walls of text to everyone then just make a google doc and copy paste your arguments for easier arguing.

Yes i already thought about that too but the problem is, me posting the same stuff over and over in the forum is just unnecessary spamming the forum and makes it more complex/ confusing. Also why should i have all the work alone? I already invested a lot of time to write the wall of text and ppl can just search in the forum (or click on my profil to see all my comments) and find them themself. It is a little bit unfair to expect that i feed the ppl like little babies who are just too lazy to do anything themself (like investing their own time for a little research) to relieve me.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

I don't really wanna argue over most of this again with you but you keep calling the use of ambush skills passive but it's not. The clone standing there using the auto attack is passive. Getting regen because you took damage is passive. Ambush skills require you to actively use a skill so they are not passive.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

You can still play condi mirage, you just have to actually be good with it. Use your stealth defensively, position out of danger, don't blow your one dodge on random BS use it strictly to counter attack a big move so you are making the most out of the fact that it's both an attack and a defend. It's just not going to carry players who don't understand counterplay anymore. Previously, you really didn't need to understand what your opponent was doing when playing condi mirage since you would just be playing passive defense at all times. Now with one dodge, you have to KNOW when to use that one dodge.

But, it's still a pretty big overnerf and overall I doubt it will be meta. Mesmer in general just needs a rework. Having a class that attacks+defends simultaneously as a base class feature is honestly impossible to properly balance in any PvP game.

[RedShark.9548]

@Ordin.8341 said:From what I've read this patch completely kills mirage in pvp/wvw and mesmers will have to switch into core builds which means they over-nerfed things not sure how accurate this is though ?

Ive met a condi mirage in wvw and he said it was fine. Completely wrecked another dude first and then me in duels.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:You can still play condi mirage, you just have to actually be good with it. Use your stealth defensively, position out of danger, don't blow your one dodge on random BS use it strictly to counter attack a big move so you are making the most out of the fact that it's both an attack and a defend. It's just not going to carry players who don't understand counterplay anymore. Previously, you really didn't need to understand what your opponent was doing when playing condi mirage since you would just be playing passive defense at all times. Now with one dodge, you have to KNOW when to use that one dodge.

But, it's still a pretty big overnerf and overall I doubt it will be meta. Mesmer in general just needs a rework. Having a class that attacks+defends simultaneously as a base class feature is honestly impossible to properly balance in any PvP game.

warrior is doing exactly this thing and nobody complains about it.gs3, dodge,fullcounter, feelnopain and kinda rampage do what you describe.and no, you HAVE to use dodge for damage. Nothing deals much damage anymore.What used to be the hardest hitting condi spell ( p4 ) deals 200-220 bleed, thats like 2,2-2,5k dmg bleed.... you dont kill shit with this lul

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

I don't really wanna argue over most of this again with you but you keep calling the use of ambush skills passive but it's not. The clone standing there using the auto attack is passive. Getting regen because you took damage is passive. Ambush skills require you to actively use a skill so they are not passive.

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Last try to explain at least the basics about why condi clones ambushes are passive (even though the player has to press the dodge button): When a Mirage can dodge only pure defensive because the clone ambush skills do too high dmg (and only dmg, no effect that needs to be timed well to hit the target in a good moment that needs a different timing from just pure defensive dodges) than there is no need to care for pure offensive dodges to time ambushattacks from clones active and reactive for the reward (pure defensive dodges are enough to get enough reward out of the dodge IH/ ambush mechanic), means then clone ambush dmg becomes a completely passive side effect from dodging pure defensive. And no Condimirage player needs to think about anything of it. They just dodge when needed to evade an attack and clones do some stuff as a side effect the player has not to care for at all. What is so hard to understand with that?

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necessary high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:You can still play condi mirage, you just have to actually be good with it. Use your stealth defensively, position out of danger, don't blow your one dodge on random BS use it strictly to counter attack a big move so you are making the most out of the fact that it's both an attack and a defend. It's just not going to carry players who don't understand counterplay anymore. Previously, you really didn't need to understand what your opponent was doing when playing condi mirage since you would just be playing passive defense at all times. Now with one dodge, you have to KNOW when to use that one dodge.

But, it's still a pretty big overnerf and overall I doubt it will be meta. Mesmer in general just needs a rework. Having a class that attacks+defends simultaneously as a base class feature is honestly impossible to properly balance in any PvP game.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Ordin.8341 said:From what I've read this patch completely kills mirage in pvp/wvw and mesmers will have to switch into core builds which means they over-nerfed things not sure how accurate this is though ?

Ive met a condi mirage in wvw and he said it was fine. Completely wrecked another dude first and then me in duels.

Sadly not true, you might can still play it, but in case you have a viable Condimirage build you can be even worse as a player now. The playstyle is even more passive or at least on the same passive lvl (Condimirage can't rly be that more passive than it was already, it just is more dodge spammy on cd now), it might be less op now but it is for sure not harder to play. Sadly Powermirage builds were just dumbed down to the same passive and dodgespam lvl now. And that for not even solving the problem with the too passive condiapplication from condi clones, for not even adding any skill ceiling to Condimirage. All that happens was nerfing Condimirage without adding any skill ceiling (even more killing skill ceiling) while also double dumbing down Powermirage. Big gg!

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Oh I am sorry I didn't realize I was talking to ascended being of great enlightment, the literal god of gaming. You must be the greatest Mesmer in the game. Ranked #1 every season because you know the class better than a filthy low being such as myself who doesn't understand the difference between passive and active abilities. You're #1 on your server, right? Best mesmer of all time right?

LOL, do you even realize how much of a rude response that was? Probably not, you seem to enjoy talking down to others from what I have seen of you so far.

Dude there is literally one definition of passive when it comes to game abilities and if you have to activate the ability to use it it's not passive. It's not up for debate. Ask anyone that games that.

Last try to explain at least the basics about why condi clones ambushes are passive (even though the player has to press the dodge button): When a Mirage can dodge only pure defensive because the clone ambush skills do that much dmg (and only dmg, no effect that needs to be timed well to hit the target in a good moment that needs a different timing from just pure defensive dodges) than there is no need to care for pure offensive dodges to time ambushattacks from clones for the reward, means then clone ambush dmg becomes a completely passive side effect from dodging pure defensive. And no Condimirage player needs to think about anything of it. They just dodge when needed to evade an attack and clones do some stuff as a side effect the player has not to care for at all. What is so hard to understand with that?

You can use your dodge offensively or you can use it defensively. You still have that choice. The game doesn't take away that choice. 50 endurance or 200 endurance you still get that choice. Thinking you don't get that choice is a self-imposed restriction. The patch didn't take away your free will. What is so hard to understand with that?

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

Well, I guess I am just a big dummy and I should stop and just ask you for my opinion to have because you understand this broader thing that mere mortals like myself don't understand Mr. Mesmer God?

LOL, seriously I think you're just making this stuff up at this point. You seem to just have some major bias against condition damage. I'd speak further with you but you can't seem to talk to someone without being a jerk so you have fun with being salty that people don't just bow down and treat you like a genius and just ask you for what opinion to have on the game every time you have to repeat yourself.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Oh I am sorry I didn't realize I was talking to ascended being of great enlightment, the literal god of gaming. You must be the greatest Mesmer in the game. Ranked #1 every season because you know the class better than a filthy low being such as myself who doesn't understand the difference between passive and active abilities. You're #1 on your server, right? Best mesmer of all time right?

LOL, do you even realize how much of a rude response that was? Probably not, you seem to enjoy talking down to others from what I have seen of you so far.

Sry when it felt rude to you, but i just mentioned a fact here. I even did the effort and tried to explain to you why condi clone ambushes are passive... even Mesmer mains agree to that.

Btw i am mulitclass player so don't even try the Mesmer main thing on me (i thought you are the Mesmer main here?). Depending on what class i fight for in this forum, because i think it is unfair treatened and in a way that deletes skill ceiling and not add some, the ppl in this forum already called me a Ranger main, i also was called Mesmer hater when i asked for CI rework or for nerfs to the core PU oneshot kitten. Some more posts to the nonsense Obsidian nerf on Ele and ppl might think i am an Ele main. It is kind of funny.

Dude there is literally one definition of passive when it comes to game abilities and if you have to activate the ability to use it it's not passive. It's not up for debate. Ask anyone that games that.If you are only able to see one dimension i cannot do anything for you.

Last try to explain at least the basics about why condi clones ambushes are passive (even though the player has to press the dodge button): When a Mirage can dodge only pure defensive because the clone ambush skills do that much dmg (and only dmg, no effect that needs to be timed well to hit the target in a good moment that needs a different timing from just pure defensive dodges) than there is no need to care for pure offensive dodges to time ambushattacks from clones for the reward, means then clone ambush dmg becomes a completely passive side effect from dodging pure defensive. And no Condimirage player needs to think about anything of it. They just dodge when needed to evade an attack and clones do some stuff as a side effect the player has not to care for at all. What is so hard to understand with that?

You can use your dodge offensively or you can use it defensively. You still have that choice. The game doesn't take away that choice. 50 endurance or 200 endurance you still get that choice. Thinking you don't get that choice is a self-imposed restriction. The patch didn't take away your free will. What is so hard to understand with that?

There is no free will when using it pure offensive is totally useless and unnecessary, when it literally is a missplay and a waste to do it. Holy cow. Ofc theoretically i can use it offensive but it would be stupid to do so (in particular now with only one dodge). Ofc we all have the free will to end our lifes by jumping from a cliff... the choice isn't that free anymore when you want to live.

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

Well, I guess I am just a big dummy and I should stop and just ask you for my opinion to have because you understand this broader thing that mere mortals like myself don't understand Mr. Mesmer God?

LOL, seriously I think you're just making this stuff up at this point. You seem to just have some major bias against condition damage. I'd speak further with you but you can't seem to talk to someone without being a jerk so you have fun with being salty that people don't just bow down and treat you like a genius and just ask you for what opinion to have on the game every time you have to repeat yourself.

Sry that you feel this way. On the other side it means, that i can stop using my time and saving my energy i use for you when all i get for it is to be called arrogant. Ever thought about you rly might don't understand everything here? That i do not say that to feel superior or because i have a too big ego or to hurt you, that i simply say that because it is just true? Sry when my wall of text of explainings make you feel like a dumb person. I never called you that. I just stated the fact that you very obviously miss some stuff here (can happen, sometimes i miss some stuff too you know, no one is perfect, that doesn't necessarily mean you are dumb. I even corrected myself in my trade off thread) and when i then do the effort with trying to explain i even get a kick in the face for it. No thank you.You are right and i am wrong ok? You feel better now?