Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Genesis.5169]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:The problem is A-net who either has the same opinion, or at least follows the endless screeching of people with a clear agenda, fueled by group think, and not an ounce of critically valid or cogent arguments based upon factual evidence.

No, ANet makes decisions based on information that they have gathered, not based on what people on the forums whine about. Thinking otherwise is just being salty because you didn't get what you want.

Condi is king for mesmer because of how easy it is compared to power. Power involves risk while condi you can just apply and then hide while your clones do all of the work. As for myself I plan to just let time pass before I cry over the change and see how things work out because 2 days isn't much time for a fair assessment of how the meta will change. Everytime they nerf mesmer every mesmer main cries like it is the end of the world and mesmer still ends up being meta.

And yet they rolled back Elusive mind even if it was a half assed roll back. I'm curious how many actual mesmers have you seen past patch day?

[Shadow.1345]

@Genesis.5169 said:And yet they rolled back Elusive mind even if it was a half assed roll back. I'm curious how many actual mesmers have you seen past patch day?

Actually I have seen a mirage in every match I have played.

[vyncius.6105]

pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

[Moradorin.6217]

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

Right I mean I agree. We should remove all Especs from pvp/wvw. Make is so EVERY CLASS only has core to choose from then balance. That seems like a good option. I wonder how popular an idea that would be.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken imo, it was nearly impossible for me to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance for incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option because l2p is too hard.

FTFY

[storm.3120]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken

imo

, it was nearly impossible

for me

to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance for

incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime

. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option

because l2p is too hard

.

FTFYGood correction you have made, now you can go.P.S was watching latest mAT, mirages were dying... mystery

[vyncius.6105]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

Right I mean I agree. We should remove all Especs from pvp/wvw. Make is so EVERY CLASS only has core to choose from then balance. That seems like a good option. I wonder how popular an idea that would be.

not all, just these 3. but it will never happen.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:

incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime

.

FTFY

its not that incompetent devs, its more about class mechanics that are very hard to balance. Example would be Ryze from league of legends, that champion had like 5 complete reworks in his lifetime, because his kit was impossible to balance. Its only broken OP or completely useless. Same with these 3 ive mentioned and that is popular opinion, not only mine.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken

imo

, it was nearly impossible

for me

to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.

because l2p is too hard

.

I am not arguing that i am good player in pvp, i am only 1500 elo scrub.But atleast i kinda understand what is broken just by watching AT's. Before you couldnt imagine winning team composition without FB, scourge(before nerfing to being useless), mirage (or thief) , rev, warrior. If only way to win AT was to have atleast 2 or all 3, of my mentioned classes, it means we have a problem with balancing, class design and their kit.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@vyncius.6105 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

Right I mean I agree. We should remove all Especs from pvp/wvw. Make is so EVERY CLASS only has core to choose from then balance. That seems like a good option. I wonder how popular an idea that would be.

not all, just these 3. but it will never happen.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:

incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime

.

FTFY

its not that incompetent devs, its more about class mechanics that are very hard to balance. Example would be Ryze from league of legends, that champion had like 5 complete reworks in his lifetime, because his kit was impossible to balance. Its only broken OP or completely useless. Same with these 3 ive mentioned and that is popular opinion, not only mine.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken

imo

, it was nearly impossible

for me

to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.

because l2p is too hard

.

I am not arguing that i am good player in pvp, i am only 1500 elo scrub.But atleast i kinda understand what is broken just by watching AT's. Before you couldnt imagine winning team composition without FB, scourge(before nerfing to being useless), mirage (or thief) , rev, warrior. If only way to win AT was to have atleast 2 or all 3, of my mentioned classes, it means we have a problem with balancing, class design and their kit.

Naa, it's incompetent devs, since PoF every mesmer was saying you should nerf this, this and this.If they've listen to us instead of the "knowledgeable community" mirage would be fixed in less than a year. They've preferred to listen to people who never played the profession instead and nerf a multitude of skills/traits that weren't the problem to begin with and this is how it ended, with mirage and chrono dead.

I'm average and could kill condi mirages easily with only 2 condi cleanses on my build (read that as I could only cleanse 2 condis) .Mirage were far from unkillable and were stall/defeated by at least half the professions on the game.

[Xca.9721]

I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release

[Moradorin.6217]

@vyncius.6105 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

Right I mean I agree. We should remove all Especs from pvp/wvw. Make is so EVERY CLASS only has core to choose from then balance. That seems like a good option. I wonder how popular an idea that would be.

not all, just these 3. but it will never happen.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:

incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime

.

FTFY

its not that incompetent devs, its more about class mechanics that are very hard to balance. Example would be Ryze from league of legends, that champion had like 5 complete reworks in his lifetime, because his kit was impossible to balance. Its only broken OP or completely useless. Same with these 3 ive mentioned and that is popular opinion, not only mine.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken

imo

, it was nearly impossible

for me

to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.

because l2p is too hard

.

I am not arguing that i am good player in pvp, i am only 1500 elo scrub.But atleast i kinda understand what is broken just by watching AT's. Before you couldnt imagine winning team composition without FB, scourge(before nerfing to being useless), mirage (or thief) , rev, warrior. If only way to win AT was to have atleast 2 or all 3, of my mentioned classes, it means we have a problem with balancing, class design and their kit.

No the only way your suggestion works for balance is to make it across all classes. Otherwise, you are just looking to narrow your own competition to gain advantage which makes the idea of balance, skill rating, and anything that gives winning value meaningless other than the gold.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Balancing is a funny word considering mesmer the class itself have been constantly gutted over the years. Mesmers only use those few utilities because the rest are garbage, why do mirage only use IH because the other 2 options arent really options, mesmers have always been pushed to a corner trying to find the next best thing salvaging whatever we have left. And the reason why most players think mesmer are OP is that they dont realize as a mesmer main you invest so much time into this class that you work it down to the smallest detail. Some of us dont just jump to the next meta class for an easy carry. There is a fine line of those who mains a certain class and those who play the meta class for an easy carry.

Most might think oh the recent changes are good but in reality nothing synergies anymore everyone one of our traits is you pick one or the other and it would change your playstyle completely.Pre Patch people were complaining about how mesmers can one shot. I really want to ask if anyone bothered checking the damage and see if it is really a one shot or is it mutliple attacks that you can dodge. I cant recall how many times ive been hit by backstabs that i don't know or have any indication of when its coming or deadeyes death judgment one shots.
Condi mirage is op but like ALL condi mesmer builds you can simply run away and we have NO form of chasing you down. If you decide to stay in the fight then that is on you. There are other condi classes that can actually chase you down and kill you or lock you down with immobile and you cant even move.

Its frustrating how people complain about a class that they know nothing about and i am very well sure a lot of people who complain are people who spend too much time relying on a group to fight and that rare chance they dont have anyone and decide to venture off alone gets killed by a mesmer and say they are OP.

This nerf on mirage having 1 dodge is a massive hit, considering mesmer class and alot of the trait lines RELY on dodges. Its like daredevil having one dodge lulz.Overall I dont mind nerfs on traits or changes on traits but I do mind when u start nerfing the core mechanic of the class.I dont agree on one dodge mirage and I also dont agree on soulbeast not being able to pet swap. I personally dont play soulbeast and I HATE boonbeast meta but i feel that as a soulbeast spec being able to pet swap is a core mechanic to the spec.

[storm.3120]

@Xca.9721 said:I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release^ Ignorance is bliss

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Xca.9721 said:I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release

This shows how little you know about mesmers or care to learn and this is why no matter how much nerfs we get you will always get killed by one.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option.

Right I mean I agree. We should remove all Especs from pvp/wvw. Make is so EVERY CLASS only has core to choose from then balance. That seems like a good option. I wonder how popular an idea that would be.

not all, just these 3. but it will never happen.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:

incompetent devs that listen to the wrong people everytime

.

FTFY

its not that incompetent devs, its more about class mechanics that are very hard to balance. Example would be Ryze from league of legends, that champion had like 5 complete reworks in his lifetime, because his kit was impossible to balance. Its only broken OP or completely useless. Same with these 3 ive mentioned and that is popular opinion, not only mine.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@vyncius.6105 said:pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken

imo

, it was nearly impossible

for me

to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking.

because l2p is too hard

.

I am not arguing that i am good player in pvp, i am only 1500 elo scrub.But atleast i kinda understand what is broken just by watching AT's. Before you couldnt imagine winning team composition without FB, scourge(before nerfing to being useless), mirage (or thief) , rev, warrior. If only way to win AT was to have atleast 2 or all 3, of my mentioned classes, it means we have a problem with balancing, class design and their kit.

Naa, it's incompetent devs, since PoF every mesmer was saying you should nerf this, this and this.If they've listen to us instead of the "knowledgeable community" mirage would be fixed in less than a year. They've preferred to listen to people who never played the profession instead and nerf a multitude of skills/traits that weren't the problem to begin with and this is how it ended, with mirage and chrono dead.

I'm average and could kill condi mirages easily with only 2 condi cleanses on my build (read that as I could only cleanse 2 condis) .Mirage were far from unkillable and were stall/defeated by at least half the professions on the game.

Yes Mirage was far from unkillable. Even when it was legit OP it had solid counters like core guard, holo, spellbreaker. The truth is the practice of scape goating mesmer has become a popular. People commonly blame what ever class they find confusing/frustrating to fight. Now that mirage is dead people are already looking at FB, core necro.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

those are utilities they CAN get.I listed what Mirage as a traitline offers, aparently you aint bright so you didnt get it.I can go down the stupid list and do this for SPB so you MIGHT just MIGHT understand how dumb that sounds.SPB gets :225 power225 ferocity10% damage bonusimmob on CCpulsing revelpulsing mightpullreset on F1 skillsextra adrenaline on boon removalboon removal on CCDamage on CCExtra F2 ability that blocks hits, dazes and refreshes F1Dagger F1 that dashes and removes boonsDagger F2 that slowsDagger F3 that stunssuper fast low cooldown aoe boon ripdome that rips boons and makes boon aplication not workAoe taunt that gives adrenalinecondi clear that healssuperspeed and resistancewow such broken!

You pretty much made that list already but hey you knock yourself out. Do you feel better now? You come off as the kind of person that likes to put others down to make yourself feel better.

Yet you keep failing to answer my question, how does one elite class, that you keep coming back to, change anything about how powerful Mirage Cloak is? You never answer that. You just keep comparing the two as if that is an answer. So Mr. Smart Guy, explain to me, Mr. Dumb Guy, how comparing those two elites makes Mirage Cloak not powerful?

im amazed that you are STILL not grasping it....mirage cloak IS strong, but mirage cloak is all MIRAGE GETS.its like removing EVERYTHING FROM SPB.no power, no CC, no reveals no immob, and then saying.SPB IS FINE. FULL COUNTER IS STRONG whats the problem.well problem is that fun dodge and thats it is UTTER GARBAGE for elite spec, becouse other elites get this fun mechanics that are on par if not better, ON TOP of extra broken shit like pulsing reveals, shitton of CC, extra stats, easy/free heals etc.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Xca.9721" said:I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98220/game-update-notes-february-25-2020#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88856/game-update-notes-october-1-2019#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/84527/game-update-notes-august-13-2019#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74356/game-update-notes-april-23-2019#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/70399/game-update-notes-march-5-2019#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62731/game-update-notes-december-11-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/53000/game-update-notes-august-28-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/47306/game-update-notes-july-10-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/40783/game-update-notes-may-22-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39192/game-update-notes-may-8-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37502/game-update-notes-april-24-2018#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33724/game-update-notes-march-27-2018#latestFiRsT tImESide note, no wonder half the skills are fucking unusable if they went ahead and reduce everythings damage by 50%.Phantasmal disenchanter, fuck it -50% dmgdefender? fuck it -50% dmg, then slap 1hour cooldown too.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:Either way it's all a matter of opinion and most likely I am wrong because I am trash.At least your class and for some parts gameknowledge is uhhm... very not so good. Considering that you don't even see that 1 dodge bar change completely contradicts your goal of making Mirage more skilled and less noobcarry.

Yeah, I'm the dumbest guy on the planet so that isn't much.

You did say that not me^^

Also, I haven't played this game much in the past year or two but what I do know is when I came back to playing PvP a few months ago, I found through the use of Scepter and Staff skill 2 along with using shatters regularly to keep my Vigour up, especially Cry of Frustration, that it was pretty easy to just pretty much spam dodges and evade attacks, and according to you my knowledge is "pretty not good" so I don't think it took too much skill so pretty much anybody could do it too.

Yes as mentioned Chaosline vigor on f2 is the one thing they should have reduced in that patch but exactly that they let untouched. While i clearly mentioned that it was only Chaosline what kept Condimirage in meta and what carried Mirageplayers (they could keep the vigor uptime because compared to everything else in that line this at least only provides active defense and not passive and noobfriedly facetank sustain but 8s is a power creeped duration and giving that on top of all the passive shit is just too much, if they would rework Chaosline into a higher skill ceiling and more active defensive traitline they could keep a vigor uptime but maybe 5 or 6s not 8).

Overall you gave a great response and I learned a lot from it but I think the choice came between gutting the whole mesmer class (because removing attacks from the clones would mean removing those attacks from the players or else just making the clones easier to tell apart than they already are) or limiting how often Mirage Cloak could be used so they went with that. As much as people argue and tell me they are wrong because they are salty about having their class nerfed nobody has been able to deny that Mirage Cloak is a very powerful ability.

Also, it wasn't my goal. It was ANet's goal. I was just explaining the clear reasoning behind their decision. Don't confuse the two.

You explained it in a way made it sound as if you agree to that Anet move because MC is "beyond broken". I am not sure if you now just step back after understanding my points or if i just missunderstood your previous posts. Anyway i think i explained well why the one dodge change is contradicting your goal of making Condimirage less passive and less noobcarry. And why MC is not as "beyond broken" on a class like Mesmer as ppl like to make it. It is a pretty strong feature but not gamebreaking (has counterplay, still rewards good Mirages way more over bad Mirages, lowers skill floor a little bit by giving higher skill ceiling on the other side with adding tactical deepness, higher opportunity costs and harder decision making into dodge management and also more opportunities for mindgames to both sides of the fight), that can be and was (after several nerfes post PoF release) balanced by cutting a too big amount of dodges in several ways pre last patch already and from the 3 inherent and right from start of PoF implemented costs of the elite spec. The only remaining op balance problem Mirage line by itself produced where the too strong and too passive designed condiambushes. What Anet STILL refuse to solve by directly nerfs or reworks.

The other balance problems from the old Condimirage meta also still remain and have nothing to do with Mirage at all, they are core problems of the Mesmer class: still broken and too forgiving noobfriendly designed defensive core traitlines, mainly Chaos because Mirage has better synergy to Chaos and still high amount of passive condi dmg application from normal clone autoattacks.

Even when Mirage will be playable no matter if condi/ hybrid or power it will have way less skill ceiling and way less tactical deepness and mechanical complexity than before. It will be even more passive and dodgespammy on cd than before (and that even on power builds now) without even solving the only remaining balance problem from Mirage traitline itself from too high passive clone condidmg and while simply ignoring necessary nerfs or reworks to core stuff (Chaosline not nerfed enough and still way to passive and low skill ceiling designed, condi clone normal autoattcks still do high dmg).

With other words: Voting for the one dodge change ONLY makes sense when you hope that Mirage will be totally unplayable and for that disappear from competitive gamemodes. In terms of making it more skilled, less noobcarry this change is completely nonsense.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Xca.9721 said:I love how all the Mirage players are crying because their spec got hit hard for the first time since PoF release

I'll bite.

Nerfs since PoF (not counting last patch)

• axes of symmetry
• ether barrage
• chaos vortex
• Illusionary ambush
• jaunt
• nomad's endurance
• elusive mind
• mirage cloak
• confounding suggestions
• power block
• ineptitude
• evasive mirror
• blinding dissipation
• critical infusion
• chaotic interruption
• bountiful disillusionment
• maim the disillusioned
• mirror blade
• chaos storm
• phantasmal warlock
• illusionary counter
• confusing images
• the pledge
• portal
• blurred frenzy

Probably missing some.

Damned mesmers, ANerf's favourite child.

[Shadow.1345]

@"bravan.3876" said:

You explained it in a way made it sound as if you agree to that Anet move because MC is "beyond broken".

I don't think it is beyond broken but your argument against the change actually convinced me that ANet made the smart move. The issue at hand is condimirage, not condimesmer. Gutting clone attacks and Chaos is just nerfing Mesmer to avoid nerfing Mirage Cloak and that just hurts people who don't have PoF so you don't get Mirage nerfed. If it was truly all about Chaos and conditions then people would just change over to core mesmer and be done with it. You could even swap out Mirage line for Illusions for the damage increase and more conditions or for Inspiration for more healing and condition cleanse. If it wasn't at all about Mirage Cloak you wouldn't be trying so hard to convince everyone to gut core Mesmer instead of Mirage.One argument I keep hearing is that you have to spam dodge roll every time your dodge bar is full or your losing endurance but that's just your mindset. You don't have to do these things. Instead reducing it to 50 endurance makes you have to choose to either spam it as soon as it is full or use it smartly. Smart dodging has always been an aspect of this game. Furthermore, by not nerfing the vigor from Bountiful Disillusionment it allows for that better vigor up time to refill endurance faster so your argument about how strong it is actually favors reducing the endurance for Mirage because it proves how fast that endurance bar can be refilled.

[Aza.2105]

Probably because mirage has multiple invuls, evade, clone spam (that players have to sort through), blink and access to stealth. Not to mention the overall damage to all classes have been lowered. Finally the class feels normal. One dodge feels like the end of the world because mirage players have been riding the op train so long that normal just doesn't feel right.

[Shadow.1345]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

im amazed that you are STILL not grasping it....mirage cloak IS strong, but mirage cloak is all MIRAGE GETS.its like removing EVERYTHING FROM SPB.no power, no CC, no reveals no immob, and then saying.SPB IS FINE. FULL COUNTER IS STRONG whats the problem.well problem is that fun dodge and thats it is UTTER GARBAGE for elite spec, becouse other elites get this fun mechanics that are on par if not better, ON TOP of extra broken kitten like pulsing reveals, kitten of CC, extra stats, easy/free heals etc.

Oh no, I fully grasp that you are trying to make the argument about Spellbreaker vs. Mirage. I'm just not falling into that argument and it's frustrating you. If Spellbreaker is too powerful then fix Spellbreaker but using Spellbreaker to not fix Mirage Cloak is just you being a child about getting your favorite class nerfed.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

You explained it in a way made it sound as if you agree to that Anet move because MC is "beyond broken".

I don't think it is beyond broken but your argument against the change actually convinced me that ANet made the smart move. The issue at hand is condimirage, not condimesmer. Gutting clone attacks and Chaos is just nerfing Mesmer to avoid nerfing Mirage Cloak and that just hurts people who don't have PoF so you don't get Mirage nerfed. If was truly all about Chaos and conditions then people would just change over to core mesmer and be done with it. You could even swap out Mirage line for Illusions for the damage increase and more conditions or for Inspiration for more healing and condition cleanse. If it wasn't at all about Mirage Cloak you wouldn't be trying so hard to convince everyone to gut core Mesmer instead of Mirage.One argument I keep hearing is that you have to spam dodge roll every time your dodge bar is full or your losing endurance but that's just your mindset. You don't have to do these things. Instead reducing it to 50 endurance makes you have to choose to either spam it as soon as it is full or use it smartly. Smart dodging has always been an aspect of this game. Furthermore, by not nerfing the vigor from Bountiful Disillusionment it allows for that better vigor up time to refill endurance faster so your argument about how strong it is actually favors reducing the endurance for Mirage because it proves how fast that endurance bar can be refilled.

I told you what still need nerfs on Mirage itself, no clue why you just ignore that? The too passive designed and op condi ambushes clearly needs nerf or better rework. I also explained to you very well why the one dodge nerf doesn't even add skill ceiling to the Mirage spec. So even if MC would be as broken as you think it is, the one dodge change doesn't even solve the problem. I also explained what outside of Mirage causes balance problems.

Even core Mes with Chaosline was noobfriendly braindead and unhealthy. Chaosline is a balance problem since game release. It is passive and very low skill ceiling and would need a rework and more nerfs even when Mirage would be deleted from the game. Also that condi clones do way more dmg with their normal autoattacks (what is completely passive condi pressure for free on all Mesmer specs for no good reason) compared to power clones never made any sense and caused imbalance from all condi Mesmer specs compared to power Mesmer specs. Bronze propaganda like "never nerf core only nerf elites" is narrowed and stupid, elite builds are using 2 core traitlines, elites do not stand by themself alone. Coretraitlines and elites interact and influence each other. You need to nerf the roots of the problems and when they are in core traitlines you nerf core. If they are in elite traitlines you nerf the elite problems. I told you for core and elite what needs nerfs you narrowed just say don't nerf core. Facepalm

But depending on your logic when a 1 dodge bar provides more skill ceiling than 2 dodge bar (what were the noob devs thinking when creating the core game... These clueless devs should have made it one dodge bar for all classes right from start) then lets do this mindful and smart change to all classes. Already pre patch there were at least 6 classes could spam remarkable more dodges than Mirages and then there are classes can passively facetank dmg way more. Makes sense for all of them to only have one dodge for the sake of skill ceiling then. And even better now compensate them with 8s vigor and higher endurance reggen for even more skill ceiling xDDDD

But no logic can fight narrowness so i stop trying here.

Can't wait for the first complains of ppl will get rekt by even more toxic and braindead and easier to play Mirage builds, in case there will be some viable ones xD Popcorn is prepared already

[Arkantos.7460]

mirage is no yolo spec anymore ... time to activate your strategic brain

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

im amazed that you are STILL not grasping it....mirage cloak IS strong, but mirage cloak is all MIRAGE GETS.its like removing EVERYTHING FROM SPB.no power, no CC, no reveals no immob, and then saying.SPB IS FINE. FULL COUNTER IS STRONG whats the problem.well problem is that fun dodge and thats it is UTTER GARBAGE for elite spec, becouse other elites get this fun mechanics that are on par if not better, ON TOP of extra broken kitten like pulsing reveals, kitten of CC, extra stats, easy/free heals etc.

Oh no, I fully grasp that you are trying to make the argument about Spellbreaker vs. Mirage. I'm just not falling into that argument and it's frustrating you. If Spellbreaker is too powerful then fix Spellbreaker but using Spellbreaker to not fix Mirage Cloak is just you being a child about getting your favorite class nerfed.

its one of thosehere are the hard factsyou : i dont accept hard facts. the hard facts are wrong go away.flies away. keep whining on mirage fam

[Shadow.1345]

@"bravan.3876" said:

I told you what still need nerfs on Mirage itself, no clue why you just ignore that. To keep up your biased hate on MC i guess?

I main mesmer and play condimirage as stated before. I guess you forgot that in your knee-jerk reaction to call me "racist" against Mirage Cloak. How cute of you.

The too passive designed and op condi ambushes clearly needs nerf or better rework. I also explained to you very well why the one dodge nerf doesn't even add skill ceiling to the Mirage spec. So even if MC woudl be as broken as you think it is, the one dodge change doesn't even solve the problem. I also explained what outside of Mirage causes balance problems.

If all that is true then just play condimesmer and let the numbers prove you right to ANet because winning an argument against me doesn't do anything to change anything.

The problem with nerfing condiambush is that is nerfing condiambush to make up for Infinite Horizon. Even though Infinite Horizon is the meta currently, it wasn't always. The simplest way to fix it is to fix the root of the problem which is Mirage Cloak. That's not even to mention that they did nerf condition damage all around by removal of amulets with Expertise to reduce the size of stacks through the reduction of condition time. Again this is asking to nerf anything beside Mirage Cloak which is really telling.

I also addressed the skill ceiling argument. You can spam it if you want or you can use it wisely. Before with 100 endurance you could spam it at 100 endurance and keep one in the pocket for using it wisely. Now you have to make a decision.

Even core Mes with Chaosline was noobfriendly braindead and unhealthy. Chaosline is a balance problem since game release. It is passive and very low skill ceiling and would need a rework and more nerfs even when Mirage would be deleted from the game. Also that condi clones do way more dmg with their normal autoattacks (what is completely passive condi pressure for free on all Mesmer specs for no good reason) compared to power clones never made any sense and caused imbalance from all condi Mesmer specs compared to power Mesmer specs. Bronze propaganda like never nerf core only nerf elites is narrowed and stupid, eltie builds are usign 2 core traitlines and they do not stand by themself alone. Coretraitlines and elites interact and influence each other. You need to nerf the roots of the problems and when they are in core traitlines you nerf core. If they are in elite traitlines you nerf the elite problems. I told you for core and elite what needs nerfs you narrowed just say don't nerf core.

They did nerf Chaos. The passive regen was cut in half. Boon and condition duration per boon was cut in half. Protection from Chaos Aura was reduced by 1/3. Expertise reduced by 8%. Also condition Mesmer was never really a thing until Mirage. It was always about power so the argument that it is about condition clones doesn't really hold up. The only core build right now are power. Where it the core condi build at?

But no logic can fight narrowness so i stop trying here.

Can't wait for the first complains of ppl will get rekt by even more toxic and braindead and easier to play Mirage builds, in case there will be some viable ones xD Popcorn is prepared already

If that is true then why are you crying about the endurance nerf?