Yes, another thread about thieves. Nerfs are required.

[Sobx.1758]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

Not sure what point you're trying to make, they were slapping each other for 2 minutes, while necro seemed to play way more "spammy" than thief did. It seems you just don't like the fact that a thief was able to win in a 1v1? Not sure what you're complaining about here.

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

Hilarious. What you just said here is: condi build should kitten on a power build regardless of anything.That makes no sense, just like your great example that pretty much claims the same (condi build somehow being called "mach 6 aircraft" and power "mach 1 aircraft"? Why? Because it's your preferred build/class, so it should win the moment it gets picked and played?). What exactly is your logic here? <.<

Seriously, imagine complaining because you think a condi tank build should be a free win and then claiming it's "bad design" or "lack of balance" just because it lost, lmao.

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removed

Once again: no.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?Ever fought a boonbeast on a condi build that wasn't necro? Similar result. And that's assuming you actually hit the soulbeast with substantial conditions, which is something the necro completely failed to do to the thief in that fight.

He'd have been better off on core necro as scourge gives too many AoE's that the thief can dodge through to get cleanses, and shroud also gives you much more effective health to work with than barrier does. He should have put doom and geomancy sigils on his weapons along with the traited AoE weakness and bleed on shroud entry along with one foot in the grave to break the daze, so he can use shroud as an instant cast pbAoE to punish the thief and load him up with condis between his evade frames as he ports in. Doing this alone would have landed 6 bleeds, which is more than the necro lands in that entire fight. He also should have run towards the thief when he ported back, and placed marks on his return points. This would have negated the cleanse the thief gets from porting back, loading more bleeds, and would have put much more pressure on him by forcing more cleanses. Necro is tanky but cannot sustain under pressure, while thief is evasive but, critically, also cannot sustain under pressure. The thief will lose if you force it to trade blows and don't attack into evades, so it's to your advantage to be aggressive but not spammy like this player was.

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'I think this is the only time a necro will ever be called a mach 6 anything xDIt's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!Well, the necro missed the vast majority of his skills. You do tend to die when that happens.History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problemWhat exactly is the root problem? Usually you complain about one shots from perma stealth, which I actually agree can be obnoxious coming from any class (including mesmer), but this build does neither of those things. Are you outraged that he won because he played better?-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-How is evasive, non stealth thief bad design? What should the thief do instead, given he has no blocks, no stability, and his passive cleanses are tied to sword 2 return ports and dodges? What you're asking for is for thief to become a warrior, there's already a class that plays like you want thief to.Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedIf anything this video is a reason to redesign necro, as pbAoE skill spam encourages lazy play.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?Ever fought a boonbeast on a condi build that wasn't necro? Similar result. And that's assuming you actually hit the soulbeast with substantial conditions, which is something the necro completely failed to do to the thief in that fight.

He'd have been better off on core necro as scourge gives too many AoE's that the thief can dodge through to get cleanses, and shroud also gives you much more effective health to work with than barrier does. He should have put doom and geomancy sigils on his weapons along with the traited AoE weakness and bleed on shroud entry along with one foot in the grave to break the daze, so he can use shroud as an instant cast pbAoE to punish the thief and load him up with condis between his evade frames as he ports in. Doing this alone would have landed 6 bleeds, which is more than the necro lands in that entire fight. He also should have run towards the thief when he ported back, and placed marks on his return points. This would have negated the cleanse the thief gets from porting back, loading more bleeds, and would have put much more pressure on him by forcing more cleanses. Necro is tanky but cannot sustain under pressure, while thief is evasive but, critically, also cannot sustain under pressure. The thief will lose if you force it to trade blows and don't attack into evades, so it's to your advantage to be aggressive but not spammy like this player was.

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'I think this is the only time a necro will ever be called a mach 6 anything xDIt's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!Well, the necro missed the vast majority of his skills. You do tend to die when that happens.History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problemWhat exactly is the root problem? Usually you complain about one shots from perma stealth, which I actually agree can be obnoxious coming from any class (including mesmer), but this build does neither of those things. Are you outraged that he won because he played better?-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-How is evasive, non stealth thief bad design? What should the thief do instead, given he has no blocks, no stability, and his passive cleanses are tied to sword 2 return ports and dodges? What you're asking for is for thief to become a warrior, there's already a class that plays like you want thief to.Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedIf anything this video is a reason to redesign necro, as pbAoE skill spam encourages lazy play.

Complains about stacking stealth*player uses little stealthComplains about evades

COoplains it wasn't a free kill is more like it.

[Antipode.7830]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

It's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problem

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removed

He's fighting a Scourge. Scourge isn't actually powerful 1v1 right now that I can tell, it's Reaper and Core. Maybe show a more relevant fight?

[cobbah.3102]

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Perma stealth and near on perma stealth should not be a thing, have to agree there.

Totally agree!!

[santoryu.9815]

this is in wvw bufs are envolved food and jewels that guive more stats , always targueting thief i found it very sad , "perma evade" too much dmg " stelth: so what is the logic behind this ? How a assasin work? High dmg ? Suprised skills? In this game.thief is one of the most weak "assasins " i see in this kind of games , we depended in invisib they make us reaveal , all good , a back stab hit u 10k? Wow what a big deal , a weaver put u 20 burn stacks have almost endless evades have condi clean have invuln cc etcetc what have thief dmg? And dodge? Always "thief" thief" when a linch makes 5k auto in pvp? A pet do the same ? Warrior have how many stuns ? Blocks? Passives that safe them ? What we nead to do here is stop cry about classes and improve ur game if classes are broken thief is not one of them , have u ever play a thief ? With 13k life in midle of aoes with medium armor? With classes hiting like trucks ? The guy is berserk is glass he die as fast as he kill u

[KrHome.1920]

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

It's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problem

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedWhy did that scourge stand at sword teleport range for the whole fight? He should have just moved in the opposite direction constantly to stall the fight. That teef could just spam sword2 over and over again. Did the scourge think he should play fair and not accidently reset the fight at any cost?

The guild that teef is in is well known for ganking and saving one escape to run away the moment the situation does not heavily favor them anymore. So the scourge lost the fight right the moment he decided to stay in it. I was even surprised he could survive that long... classic broken trailblazer sustain.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

It's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problem

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedWhy did that scourge stand at sword teleport range for the whole fight? He should have just moved in the opposite direction constantly to stall the fight. That teef could just spam sword2 over and over again. Did the scourge think he should play fair and not accidently reset the fight at any cost?

The guild that teef is in is well known for ganking and saving one escape to run away the moment the situation does not heavily favor them anymore. So the scourge lost the fight right the moment he decided to stay in it. I was even surprised he could survive that long... classic broken trailblazer sustain.

Vid gave me motion sickness,lol. Nothing skillful about sword spam imo.

[Kovu.7560]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

It's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problem

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedWhy did that scourge stand at sword teleport range for the whole fight? He should have just moved in the opposite direction constantly to stall the fight. That teef could just spam sword2 over and over again. Did the scourge think he should play fair and not accidently reset the fight at any cost?

The guild that teef is in is well known for ganking and saving one escape to run away the moment the situation does not heavily favor them anymore. So the scourge lost the fight right the moment he decided to stay in it. I was even surprised he could survive that long... classic broken trailblazer sustain.

Vid gave me motion sickness,lol. Nothing skillful about sword spam imo.

Would you have rather he attempted to facetank the scourge's AoEs instead? "Sword spam" takes more skill than bleed-dodge-spam, or stealth rifle, which are the kind of thief fight that give me motion sickness.

~ Kovu

edit- bonus points for not using stealth.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Kovu.7560 said:

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'

It's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problem

-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedWhy did that scourge stand at sword teleport range for the whole fight? He should have just moved in the opposite direction constantly to stall the fight. That teef could just spam sword2 over and over again. Did the scourge think he should play fair and not accidently reset the fight at any cost?

The guild that teef is in is well known for ganking and saving one escape to run away the moment the situation does not heavily favor them anymore. So the scourge lost the fight right the moment he decided to stay in it. I was even surprised he could survive that long... classic broken trailblazer sustain.

Vid gave me motion sickness,lol. Nothing skillful about sword spam imo.

Would you have rather he attempted to facetank the scourge's AoEs instead? "Sword spam" takes more skill than bleed-dodge-spam, or stealth rifle, which are the kind of thief fight that give

me

motion sickness.

~ Kovu

edit- bonus points for not using stealth.

Good players facetank lol

As for the stealth...no need when you can shrug off the herpes scourges gives :p

[Sylosi.6503]

8 years in and GW2 players still don't grasp that the problem with class balance in WvW is WvW...

[Shroud.2307]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"hypehype.9047" said:just switch to thief, that is how we deal with an op character in tekken (currently leroy smith) when everone is stealth around WvW hitting 7k on people and 14k on downs maybe anet might balance their game but dont hold you breath.

If people switched to thief, they will suddenly realise "hey, I cant oneshot anyone but the squishiest people, and any enemy that is half-decent will just abuse my stealth with channeled attacks/AoE/Cleave and I will die". Before switching back to whatever they were playing before because its most likely a whole lot more effective. The permastealth build is certainly frustrating, but its not

good

. Its just a dumb build that can oneshot squishy people without counterplay, and automatically loses hard against everything else. Not something Id keep in the game, but also not broken (and incredibly boring to play, thats why you dont see very many of them).

Thief otherwise? Condi thief is good (but doesnt really use stealth), Rifle DE that spends as little time in stealth as possible is decent, but outclassed by most roamers. Everything else isnt really viable anymore. D/P was bad once PI was bad, and it was overnerfed from its already overnerfed state. Staff Thief wasnt really ever good in wvw, in PvP it worked because not dying is enough to win, in WvW, not so much. S/D thief seems like its damage got hit just that tiny bit too hard. Oh and I guess all forms of thief struggle vs the condi meta rn.

This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

[Deniara Devious.3948]

I am NOT going to join the club to argue about the numbers. The main issue is this:

Is it fun to play against builds, which can constantly stealth and strike massive damage out of stealth?

The answer is solid and clear NO from majority of players. Often even when you guess where the thief goes, you cannot kill him with spamming AoE, because he simply shadow steps far and resets the fight. To able to the reset the fight and soon come back again to attack from stealth is annoying and makes the roaming less fun for majority of players. Thus something should be done about it.

Revealed should last same time in WvWvW as in spvp or maybe even be 1 second longer. I never understood why revealed was 1 second shorter time in WvWvW, where stealth is obviously much bigger advantage.

Stealth should have a maximum duration of 6-15 seconds and after that comes forced reveal. A thing like permanent stealth simply should not exist in any competitive or semi-competitive game mode.

Note: These changes should affect all professions. Mesmer or engineer etc. should not given long stealth either.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"hypehype.9047" said:just switch to thief, that is how we deal with an op character in tekken (currently leroy smith) when everone is stealth around WvW hitting 7k on people and 14k on downs maybe anet might balance their game but dont hold you breath.

If people switched to thief, they will suddenly realise "hey, I cant oneshot anyone but the squishiest people, and any enemy that is half-decent will just abuse my stealth with channeled attacks/AoE/Cleave and I will die". Before switching back to whatever they were playing before because its most likely a whole lot more effective. The permastealth build is certainly frustrating, but its not

good

. Its just a dumb build that can oneshot squishy people without counterplay, and automatically loses hard against everything else. Not something Id keep in the game, but also not broken (and incredibly boring to play, thats why you dont see very many of them).

Thief otherwise? Condi thief is good (but doesnt really use stealth), Rifle DE that spends as little time in stealth as possible is decent, but outclassed by most roamers. Everything else isnt really viable anymore. D/P was bad once PI was bad, and it was overnerfed from its already overnerfed state. Staff Thief wasnt really ever good in wvw, in PvP it worked because not dying is enough to win, in WvW, not so much. S/D thief seems like its damage got hit just that tiny bit too hard. Oh and I guess all forms of thief struggle vs the condi meta rn.

This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

Good on u for such a honest post. I agree 100% that thief is not a beginner friendly class and indeed has not only a high skill ceiling but floor as well. I love the disingenuous post where a poster will state they don't play thief and they picked it up and was face roll easy mode etc as if they don't realize anyone knowledgable about the game would know strait away their spouting BS to simply fit their agenda.Anyway keep at it If u enjoy it even if it frustrates u cuz I'll only get better with practice.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Deniara Devious.3948 said:I am NOT going to join the club to argue about the numbers. The main issue is this:

Is it fun to play against builds, which can constantly stealth and strike massive damage out of stealth?

The answer is solid and clear NO from majority of players. Often even when you guess where the thief goes, you cannot kill him with spamming AoE, because he simply shadow steps far and resets the fight. To able to the reset the fight and soon come back again to attack from stealth is annoying and makes the roaming less fun for majority of players. Thus something should be done about it.

You dont guess where the thief goes. You can see it. And yeah you can kill him with AoE pretty easily. If he runs away, sure, he runs away, but then you can just mount up and walk away as well. Its not like the thief is going to be a threat.

Revealed should last same time in WvWvW as in spvp or maybe even be 1 second longer. I never understood why revealed was 1 second shorter time in WvWvW, where stealth is obviously much bigger advantage.

Eh, I wouldnt touch revealed. It does nothing to perma-stealth builds, but it would hurt in-combat stealth builds (that are already underperforming) a lot.

Stealth should have a maximum duration of 6-15 seconds and after that comes forced reveal. A thing like permanent stealth simply should not exist in any competitive or semi-competitive game mode.

That I can agree with though. Hell Id say 6-15 is a bit much even. Just hard-cap stealth from most sources at 4 seconds (the standard 3 seconds + 1 from shadow arts), with a few specific exceptions (Stealth Gyro and Shadow Refuge specifically). Instead of a reveal, just make it drop you out of stealth, and make it impossible to extend the duration while in-stealth.

Note: These changes should affect all professions. Mesmer or engineer etc. should not given long stealth either.

Eh, Stealth Gyro is fine Id argue.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "damn, I need to play my thief more like that"

[Burnfall.9573]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

[DemonSeed.3528]

No, that is not what I am saying at all - I am saying that if you do not understand what you are fighting, you must look at it from their point of view, see the tools they have available, see how it plays, understand their class and then you will have no trouble beating it on anything else.

Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight.

This part I highlight may have not been clear to you, but it is implying from the point of view from any class I use.

[Sobx.1758]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

No, in summary: "I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions."

[Burnfall.9573]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

No, in summary: "I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions."

Sobx 8 years is a very long time to look for solutions. Maybe what the community are asking.... is for a new vision to a better solution. Would you agree?

[Sobx.1758]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

No, in summary: "I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions."

8 years is a very long time to look for solutions. Maybe what the community are asking.... is for a new vision to a better solution. Would you agree?

The thing here is that you're not looking for a solution, you don't seem to even understand the problem. Instead you just keep spamming about nerfs and reworks, which make no sense. Even here you've completely ""missed the point"" to try and push your usual agenda with a comment barely related to the post you've quoted.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

No, in summary: "I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions."

8 years is a very long time to look for solutions. Maybe what the community are asking.... is for a new vision to a better solution. Would you agree?

The thing here is that you're not looking for a solution, you don't seem to even understand the problem. Instead you just keep spamming about nerfs and reworks, which make no sense. Even here you've completely missed the point to try and push your usual agenda.

once again, i tried to be respectful yet you chose to be condescending.

/ignore

[Sobx.1758]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This covers it pretty well.

I've played Thief many times in the past but I always end up deleting it out of frustration because I'm terrible at it despite really enjoying it. I made another this past week and have been punishing myself playing it trying to force myself to improve but progress is slow. I'm not a fast learner and I'm a mediocre player.

I've never had much trouble with Thieves and I can appreciate a good one when I meet one but playing it makes me realize even more how high the skill floor is. Thief isn't an easy class to just jump on and do well with. It has a high skill floor and near infinite skill ceiling in that it isn't a good beginner class but you can do some crazy things with it when you get good with it. That's a part of what makes good Thieves so irritating - it feels like they can do what ever they want and it's hard to stop them.

I think Thief is fine right now and if anything could use buffs. It has been in pretty rough shape for quite some time now and comparing the entire class to one cheese build ( 1 shot DE ) is an extremely unfair way to pass judgement.

When I first played the game I used to hate thieves, I abhorred them. They were annoying. They brought the fear in me. HOWEVER, I also come from a point of gaming where these kind of things are the exact challenges that excite me, and motivate me to improve more. This is also another reason why I multiclass. I want to overcome the odds, I want to outskill and outplay, and when the challenge is too little I minimize my kit. I was really motivated in wanting to beat thieves, I didn't want to fear every corner of the map. Why was I being killed all the time? Why were thieves always choosing me? I realised at that point I was always making myself an easy target. Always out in the open, always unaware of surroundings, always going to exactly the hot spots on the map where these classes would excel, thinking I can just run in a straight line, thinking that ally over there will help me, etc...Anyways, I decided at one point I should actually roll a thief, and visit the thief forum, ask questions, look at their tips and see past threads, and especially look at youtubers who main or multiclass on thief. Instead of bringing my hatred into that place, I asked questions and tips, and I looked beyond my bias and I really appreciated all the people giving their thoughts and feedback in there. That's why I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions.Whenever I see a thief now, if it's just a common average thief, I'm just like "oh you gonna die now", but if it's an above average player you can usually tell in the first exchange, and it gets the blood moving for a nice exciting fight. Sometimes you just gotta pull a Rocky Balboa and train yourself to deal with things. That's how I did it anyways. I enjoy seeing high skill plays from all classes, I think everyone should at least dabble in a bit of multiclassing, and playing with all the weaponsets and also power/hybrid/condi builds. It's great fun for me at least.Always nice to see someone elses perspective on it. Trust me, when you suddenly feel that progression even though it is a small one, it is like a great burden has been lifted.

PS - I know not everyone is like this, but when I get pwnt by a thief, my first thought is always, "kitten, I need to play my thief more like that"

in summary, 'If you are not it, you can not win it'??

No, in summary: "I always chuckle when I see nerf thief threads, because I think these people were truly unable to look beyond their bias when there are solutions."

8 years is a very long time to look for solutions. Maybe what the community are asking.... is for a new vision to a better solution. Would you agree?

The thing here is that you're not looking for a solution, you don't seem to even understand the problem. Instead you just keep spamming about nerfs and reworks, which make no sense. Even here you've completely missed the point to try and push your usual agenda.

once again, i tried to be respectful yet you chose to be condescending.

/ignore

If you actually want to talk instead of pretending to be a victim just so you can dogde anything anyone says when you have nothing to answer, how about you'll start with responding to the posts like:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1183212/#Comment_1183212orhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1183259/#Comment_1183259 ?

You come up with empty claims and completely irrelevant examples like "condi build is m6 aircraft, power build is m1 aricraft, so power build winning makes no sense!" not because you're interested in a healthy/balanced gameplay, but because you have a very obvious agenda to push while you fail to understand the actual problematic areas of the classes and their mechanics.

And it blows my mind how you can claim you've "once again, tried to be respectful", when the last few answers I got from you were memes and condescending gifs. Stop lying.

[Burnfall.9573]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?Ever fought a boonbeast on a condi build that wasn't necro? Similar result. And that's assuming you actually hit the soulbeast with substantial conditions, which is something the necro completely failed to do to the thief in that fight.

He'd have been better off on core necro as scourge gives too many AoE's that the thief can dodge through to get cleanses, and shroud also gives you much more effective health to work with than barrier does. He should have put doom and geomancy sigils on his weapons along with the traited AoE weakness and bleed on shroud entry along with one foot in the grave to break the daze, so he can use shroud as an instant cast pbAoE to punish the thief and load him up with condis between his evade frames as he ports in. Doing this alone would have landed 6 bleeds, which is more than the necro lands in that entire fight. He also should have run towards the thief when he ported back, and placed marks on his return points. This would have negated the cleanse the thief gets from porting back, loading more bleeds, and would have put much more pressure on him by forcing more cleanses. Necro is tanky but cannot sustain under pressure, while thief is evasive but, critically, also cannot sustain under pressure. The thief will lose if you force it to trade blows and don't attack into evades, so it's to your advantage to be aggressive but not spammy like this player was.

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'I think this is the only time a necro will ever be called a mach 6 anything xDIt's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!Well, the necro missed the vast majority of his skills. You do tend to die when that happens.History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problemWhat exactly is the root problem? Usually you complain about one shots from perma stealth, which I actually agree can be obnoxious coming from any class (including mesmer), but this build does neither of those things. Are you outraged that he won because he played better?-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-How is evasive, non stealth thief bad design? What should the thief do instead, given he has no blocks, no stability, and his passive cleanses are tied to sword 2 return ports and dodges? What you're asking for is for thief to become a warrior, there's already a class that plays like you want thief to.Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedIf anything this video is a reason to redesign necro, as pbAoE skill spam encourages lazy play.

if to bring Necromancer Profession back to Guild Wars Necromancer Profession design, that would be greathttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Necromancer

-Necromancer Profession is a condition caster and that's all i can say :)-

[Sobx.1758]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:here is a dual between a Thief Profession player vs a Necromancer Profession player, playing a tank build'stability', 'Op healing-tank build'.....absolutely nothing couldn't save the Necromancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRFnPiPMFcw

the question to be asked is, how does a condition base profession dies to a non-condition base profession and being immune to all of its conditions all at the same time?Ever fought a boonbeast on a condi build that wasn't necro? Similar result. And that's assuming you actually hit the soulbeast with substantial conditions, which is something the necro completely failed to do to the thief in that fight.

He'd have been better off on core necro as scourge gives too many AoE's that the thief can dodge through to get cleanses, and shroud also gives you much more effective health to work with than barrier does. He should have put doom and geomancy sigils on his weapons along with the traited AoE weakness and bleed on shroud entry along with one foot in the grave to break the daze, so he can use shroud as an instant cast pbAoE to punish the thief and load him up with condis between his evade frames as he ports in. Doing this alone would have landed 6 bleeds, which is more than the necro lands in that entire fight. He also should have run towards the thief when he ported back, and placed marks on his return points. This would have negated the cleanse the thief gets from porting back, loading more bleeds, and would have put much more pressure on him by forcing more cleanses. Necro is tanky but cannot sustain under pressure, while thief is evasive but, critically, also cannot sustain under pressure. The thief will lose if you force it to trade blows and don't attack into evades, so it's to your advantage to be aggressive but not spammy like this player was.

Example: it's like having a mach 1 aircraft out speeding a mach 6 aircraft and calling it 'balanced', 'good design'I think this is the only time a necro will ever be called a mach 6 anything xDIt's Unbelievable what Guild Wars 2 put up with!!Well, the necro missed the vast majority of his skills. You do tend to die when that happens.History shows that asking for nerfs, is asking for excuses to not deal with the root cause problemWhat exactly is the root problem? Usually you complain about one shots from perma stealth, which I actually agree can be obnoxious coming from any class (including mesmer), but this build does neither of those things. Are you outraged that he won because he played better?-once again, Bad Design is screaming all over Thief Profession design-How is evasive, non stealth thief bad design? What should the thief do instead, given he has no blocks, no stability, and his passive cleanses are tied to sword 2 return ports and dodges? What you're asking for is for thief to become a warrior, there's already a class that plays like you want thief to.Thief Profession either need to be completely redesign at once or be immediately removedIf anything this video is a reason to redesign necro, as pbAoE skill spam encourages lazy play.

if to bring Necromancer Profession back to Guild Wars Necromancer Profession design, that would be great

-Necromancer Profession is a condition caster and that's all i can say :)-

This is gw2, not gw1, so "what has been in another game" is irrelevant.And you didn't answer to anything in the post. :)