Before destroying ranger again

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

many words to give no answer whatsoever.

Could you not figure it out for yourself with the 1) that I gave you?

The idea is that: "You feed a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he eats for the rest of his life." But this doesn't seem to apply in the forum. In the forum, you feed a man a fish and they keep asking for fish and act like you never gave them a fish. If you teach them to fish, they act like what you taught them is complete nonsense and in no way cohesive with the reality they themselves see. Gets tiring really, especially when you're actually giving people honest non-biased feedback.

If you couldn't figure it out for yourself, the combined damage output between the Core Ranger and its Pet, is actually significantly lower than other classes. The Core Ranger itself deals subpar Druid like damage outside of Maul every 6s that hits like a single Photon Forge auto at this point. <- That damage output is bad. However, the pet itself is dealing too much damage to the point that it's pissing people off because it's an AI.

Is it broken design? YES. Is it overpowered? NO. the damage distribution between the Core Ranger and the pet is seriously lopsided, and I can agree that it needs to be redistributed more equally amongst the Ranger and the Pet. But what Ranger and its Pet do not need, is some kind of massive rip to the overall amount of DPS that it is actually dealing over the course of a 30s to 60s 1v1, because Core Ranger and its Pet are believe it or not, already on the lower end of things when it comes to this. And most of that lower end DPS is single strike even, and is barely present at all for contribution in team fights. The reason why people feel like: "OMGERD THE PET IS SO OP" is because it can hit a high number every once in awhile, surprise them, and chunk off 8k+ damage right before that player is about to push a heal skill, and down them.

But just remember, that the big pet strike is all the Core Ranger has. If you were to shave even 20% damage off of those pets right now, Core Ranger would lose that big hit threat pressure, and would disappear. So people need to relax and understand that although the pet can hit large numbers, the Core Ranger overall is kind of bad. So if the pets are to be nerfed it needs to be done correctly. The first step to doing this correctly, is to identify that Marksmanship Modifiers are responsible for the big pet strikes. It isn't pet damage coefficients alone, and Sic Em isn't even being ran on these Core Ranger builds. If you were to go on a Ranger and let your pets auto a golem dummy, you'd see that the pet's autos and F2s aren't that big of hits without marks mods being present. It's Marks mods amplifying the pet strikes to a level where they are still hitting like old Mauls & WIs before nerfing. The problem with Ranger/Soulbaest damage output has always been, currently is, and will continue to be Marksmanship Modifiers. Each time Arenanet nerfs coefficients on weapon/pet damage, it just pigeonholes Rangers into being required to use Marksmanship to maintain damage output and further ruins the viability of other builds that aren't leaning on Marksmanship modifiers. And then wallah, you have Druids and other Ranger specs with bad damage unless they are blowing you up with the use of Maul/WI/Pet F2 strikes, that are all tied to Marksmanship modifiers.

Let me remind you of what these modifiers are doing, where the damage is coming from:

1. Ranger pet swaps, activates Clarion Bond which is this = https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild Pet is now unblockable
2. The Fury turns on https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Remorseless a +25% damage mod for both the Ranger and the Pet
3. Hit with Hilt Bash for CC to activate this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moment_of_Clarity a +50% damage mod, effects Ranger and Pet
4. Ranger uses Maul first, which makes an additional damage mod for the pet https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity_(effect)
5. Upon this, other passive mods active are: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loud_Whistle - https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pet%27s_Prowess - and then how Remorseless also reactivates Opening Strike, which makes the Pet Critical hit every first strike. This is in additional to a nearly guaranteed 10 to 15 stacks of vuln on the target before the Pet hits.
6. You're looking at: Pet Coefficient damage + 50% damage + 50% damage + 25% damage + 10% damage + 10% damage + w/e else is on sigils/runes, all active at the same time when the pet lands its F2 or some of these active when pets are autoing. <- THIS is why pets hit hard. It's not the goddamn base coefficients on pets.

^ All of this is why Ranger/Soulbeast has always hit hard. Those mods that would normally only go the pet when activated, go to the Soulbeast when he is merged. The problem was never base weapon/pet damage coefficients.

Anyway, you tell me what's normal man. You tell me.

[aymnad.9023]

@Vancho.8750 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:I think they broke Ranger a lot when they made Counterattack work like Shield block with a cc tied to it. So in the end rangers ended up being way too good for melee since the ranger gs is like warrior gs with high damage skill + dodge attack but it also has warrior shield block and 2 stuns in 2 abilities and the auto attack is really good also, so rangers got the best parts of the warrior kit, but they are also good in range with longbow. Before you had to chose sword + dagger for defense or greatsword for the big burst, but now you don't need to since gs has the offense and defense in one kit. And rangers now fill the niche of other classes and do their job better, they have the kit of a warrior but warriors can be kited while rangers would switch to longbow and continue their damage. They are not weak in melee or range they have allot of stability so you have to build really niche builds to deal with them and we end up with something like condi and bunkers .Some classes have ended up being jack all trade and being master of all of them, while others have been sidelined to one trick ponies and the jack of all trades have taken their spot.I really do not know what to tell here...Lot of stab ? Max 1 source in all the builds.I miss the old sword, but that was also because axe offhand was useful (now it is just bad). Gs only has one very easy to notice offensive skill and thats all. It does not deal that much damage now.Better than warriors? Swapping to lb still means you are weak in close combat. A spellbreaker will use its superior tools to destroy you.Fill the niche of other professions and are better? Which ones? People love to tell incredible stories about sidenoders but Weaver, spellbreaker, holo are still superior.Yes it is a jack of all trade. This is why it is miles away from stealing anyone spots. Anything that other professions did better before the "shake up" patch they still do better.

Pretty touchy bruh, but ranger still stays as on the few builds that can still do 100 to 0 in seconds. And i did point that people will go for niche builds with condi or bunker or both together. The moment the condi bunker kitten gets nerfed rangers would come on the top and would end up on the chopper again.So start theory crafting what is borked in being op and what is underpowerd, and what is the purpose of the build.

Having a burst is definitely the best option on ranger right now. But the 100-0 works very differently for slb and core. Also both are bit solitary with heavy counters (projectile hate, pressure, tanky opponents). (edit : they are also predictable)There are some condi and bunkers builds. Can they be good? Yes. At least those I have seen look ok (at best). But playing them also has lots of drawbacks (weak teamfighting and not designed to hold a +1). It would require a new wave of nerfs on everything to put them on the spotlight and I do not think that is what anet plans to do.

[mrauls.6519]

I can't even tell if ranger without the pet is fine. They can be quiet tanky. I guess this is the meta though. I wish they'd remove knights amulet

[cryorion.9532]

Ah yes, ranger is finally playable because it is op. I am sure that pre-nerfed Mauls were fine, too, jUsT d0dg3. Broken rev hammer 2nd skill was fine, too, just dodge.Tbh, I prefer ranger destruction.

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

Builds can't be compared using "average" dps over 30s to 60s of combat. If so, symbol DH using gs would probably be the strongest build in the game.And saying one class has a lot of small pockets of damage, using their abilities for 6 seconds straight to deal that damage should have the same damage (or equal to) a class that can kite for 6 seconds, about face and deal all that accumulated damage in a single hit is just not justifiable. No matter how many words you type in your post.

You say ranger deals very little damage right now, but at the same time both eura and shadow says Knight amulet is NA meta. Try switching to something like demolisher and fighting runes and 5-9k mauls won't be out of the ordinary.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

Builds can't be compared using "average" dps over 30s to 60s of combat. If so, symbol DH using gs would probably be the strongest build in the game.And saying one class has a lot of small pockets of damage, using their abilities for 6 seconds straight to deal that damage should have the same damage (or equal to) a class that can kite for 6 seconds, about face and deal all that accumulated damage in a single hit is just not justifiable. No matter how many words you type in your post.

Of course it can be compared that way. But your example is situated to highlight the strength of the Ranger burst, but not the strength of the Symbolbrand's damage. The Symbolbrand in a team fight laying all the small pockets of damage, is going to deal A LOT more damage than the Ranger ever will, in a team fight. What you're saying is suggesting that a burst build shouldn't win vs attrition AoE in a circumstance that should favor a burst build? That's bologna my good dude. The burst build definitely should be winning in a circumstance that favors burst damage. And the AoE medium to high attrition off symbols should be winning in a team fight scenario. This is why Rangers are good 1v1s on a side, and why Symbolbrand is baller stronk in a team fight. I don't understand where the confusion about balance is here.

You say ranger deals very little damage right now, but at the same time both eura and shadow says Knight amulet is NA meta. Try switching to something like demolisher and fighting runes and 5-9k mauls won't be out of the ordinary.

That's not true at all.

I run Demolisher on my Core Ranger and its mauls hit for more like 3k - 4k nowadays and that's even when marks mods are active. Everyone has tough stack and resistance rune man, and plenty of prot. Sure, if I manage to hit a Deadeye running Berserker with no prot, I'll still tag a 6k-7k-8k but you can't judge anyone's damage output from the damage taken by outlier serks who have absolutely no attribute tied defenses. Oh and running Knight amulet, seriously removes any & all threatening damage from Core Ranger. Your Rapid Fires start hitting 3ks and your mauls are like 2.5 - 3.5, autos are like 800 - 900, unless you burn a bunch of CDs to combo a couple autos with marks mods, might allow you to tag a couple 2ks - 3ks as someone attempts to retreat. If you guys are complaining about the damage output from the actual Core Ranger when it's wearing Knight's Amulet, you're doing something wrong. literally every build in the game can kite around and bunk vs. the damage from a Knight Core Ranger. If they can manage avoid the pet, the Ranger can't even pump out enough DPS to seriously down a SA DP Thief.

5k-9k Mauls are more typical of Marks/Beast/Soulbeast when merged for all the extra bonuses. And in that case they are absorbing and using the pet's damage for themselves, rather than allowing the pet to deal damage as an exterior vector.

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

Builds can't be compared using "average" dps over 30s to 60s of combat. If so, symbol DH using gs would probably be the strongest build in the game.And saying one class has a lot of small pockets of damage, using their abilities for 6 seconds straight to deal that damage should have the same damage (or equal to) a class that can kite for 6 seconds, about face and deal all that accumulated damage in a single hit is just not justifiable. No matter how many words you type in your post.

Of course it can be compared that way. But your example is situated to highlight the strength of the Ranger burst, but not the strength of the Symbolbrand's damage. The Symbolbrand in a team fight laying all the small pockets of damage, is going to deal A LOT more damage than the Ranger ever will, in a team fight. What you're saying is suggesting that a burst build shouldn't win vs attrition AoE in a circumstance that should favor a burst build? That's bologna my good dude. The burst build definitely should be winning in a circumstance that favors burst damage. And the AoE medium to high attrition off symbols should be winning in a team fight scenario. This is why Rangers are good 1v1s on a side, and why Symbolbrand is baller stronk in a team fight. I don't understand where the confusion about balance is here.

You say ranger deals very little damage right now, but at the same time both eura and shadow says Knight amulet is NA meta. Try switching to something like demolisher and fighting runes and 5-9k mauls won't be out of the ordinary.

That's not true at all.

I run Demolisher on my Core Ranger and its mauls hit for more like 3k - 4k nowadays and that's even when marks mods are active. Everyone has tough stack and resistance rune man, and plenty of prot. Sure, if I manage to hit a Deadeye running Berserker with no prot, I'll still tag a 6k-7k-8k but you can't judge anyone's damage output from the damage taken by outlier serks who have absolutely no attribute tied defenses. Oh and running Knight amulet, seriously removes any & all threatening damage from Core Ranger. Your Rapid Fires start hitting 3ks and your mauls are like 2.5 - 3.5, autos are like 800 - 900, unless you burn a bunch of CDs to combo a couple autos with marks mods, might allow you to tag a couple 2ks - 3ks as someone attempts to retreat. If you guys are complaining about the damage output from the actual Core Ranger when it's wearing Knight's Amulet, you're doing something wrong. literally every build in the game can kite around and bunk vs. the damage from a Knight Core Ranger. If they can manage avoid the pet, the Ranger can't even pump out enough DPS to seriously down a SA DP Thief.

5k-9k Mauls are more typical of Marks/Beast/Soulbeast when merged for all the extra bonuses. And in that case they are absorbing and using the pet's damage for themselves, rather than allowing the pet to deal damage as an exterior vector.

DPS is not indicative of winning a fight. Ofc burst classes can be favored. But saying they should deal the same damage over a 60s period is insanity

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

Builds can't be compared using "average" dps over 30s to 60s of combat. If so, symbol DH using gs would probably be the strongest build in the game.And saying one class has a lot of small pockets of damage, using their abilities for 6 seconds straight to deal that damage should have the same damage (or equal to) a class that can kite for 6 seconds, about face and deal all that accumulated damage in a single hit is just not justifiable. No matter how many words you type in your post.

Of course it can be compared that way. But your example is situated to highlight the strength of the Ranger burst, but not the strength of the Symbolbrand's damage. The Symbolbrand in a team fight laying all the small pockets of damage, is going to deal A LOT more damage than the Ranger ever will, in a team fight. What you're saying is suggesting that a burst build shouldn't win vs attrition AoE in a circumstance that should favor a burst build? That's bologna my good dude. The burst build definitely should be winning in a circumstance that favors burst damage. And the AoE medium to high attrition off symbols should be winning in a team fight scenario. This is why Rangers are good 1v1s on a side, and why Symbolbrand is baller stronk in a team fight. I don't understand where the confusion about balance is here.

You say ranger deals very little damage right now, but at the same time both eura and shadow says Knight amulet is NA meta. Try switching to something like demolisher and fighting runes and 5-9k mauls won't be out of the ordinary.

That's not true at all.

I run Demolisher on my Core Ranger and its mauls hit for more like 3k - 4k nowadays and that's even when marks mods are active. Everyone has tough stack and resistance rune man, and plenty of prot. Sure, if I manage to hit a Deadeye running Berserker with no prot, I'll still tag a 6k-7k-8k but you can't judge anyone's damage output from the damage taken by outlier serks who have absolutely no attribute tied defenses. Oh and running Knight amulet, seriously removes any & all threatening damage from Core Ranger. Your Rapid Fires start hitting 3ks and your mauls are like 2.5 - 3.5, autos are like 800 - 900, unless you burn a bunch of CDs to combo a couple autos with marks mods, might allow you to tag a couple 2ks - 3ks as someone attempts to retreat. If you guys are complaining about the damage output from the actual Core Ranger when it's wearing Knight's Amulet, you're doing something wrong. literally every build in the game can kite around and bunk vs. the damage from a Knight Core Ranger. If they can manage avoid the pet, the Ranger can't even pump out enough DPS to seriously down a SA DP Thief.

5k-9k Mauls are more typical of Marks/Beast/Soulbeast when merged for all the extra bonuses. And in that case they are absorbing and using the pet's damage for themselves, rather than allowing the pet to deal damage as an exterior vector.

DPS is not indicative of winning a fight. Ofc burst classes can be favored. But saying they should deal the same damage over a 60s period is insanity

So it sounds to me like you're saying burst classes should deal less damage than a big fat central AoE Bunker Team Support?

That doesn't even make sense dude. The burst class deals a lot of damage because it's a burst class.

May need to reevaluate your theory behind balance there.

I mean if I'm mistaken, please clarify what you're trying to explain.

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

Builds can't be compared using "average" dps over 30s to 60s of combat. If so, symbol DH using gs would probably be the strongest build in the game.And saying one class has a lot of small pockets of damage, using their abilities for 6 seconds straight to deal that damage should have the same damage (or equal to) a class that can kite for 6 seconds, about face and deal all that accumulated damage in a single hit is just not justifiable. No matter how many words you type in your post.

Of course it can be compared that way. But your example is situated to highlight the strength of the Ranger burst, but not the strength of the Symbolbrand's damage. The Symbolbrand in a team fight laying all the small pockets of damage, is going to deal A LOT more damage than the Ranger ever will, in a team fight. What you're saying is suggesting that a burst build shouldn't win vs attrition AoE in a circumstance that should favor a burst build? That's bologna my good dude. The burst build definitely should be winning in a circumstance that favors burst damage. And the AoE medium to high attrition off symbols should be winning in a team fight scenario. This is why Rangers are good 1v1s on a side, and why Symbolbrand is baller stronk in a team fight. I don't understand where the confusion about balance is here.

You say ranger deals very little damage right now, but at the same time both eura and shadow says Knight amulet is NA meta. Try switching to something like demolisher and fighting runes and 5-9k mauls won't be out of the ordinary.

That's not true at all.

I run Demolisher on my Core Ranger and its mauls hit for more like 3k - 4k nowadays and that's even when marks mods are active. Everyone has tough stack and resistance rune man, and plenty of prot. Sure, if I manage to hit a Deadeye running Berserker with no prot, I'll still tag a 6k-7k-8k but you can't judge anyone's damage output from the damage taken by outlier serks who have absolutely no attribute tied defenses. Oh and running Knight amulet, seriously removes any & all threatening damage from Core Ranger. Your Rapid Fires start hitting 3ks and your mauls are like 2.5 - 3.5, autos are like 800 - 900, unless you burn a bunch of CDs to combo a couple autos with marks mods, might allow you to tag a couple 2ks - 3ks as someone attempts to retreat. If you guys are complaining about the damage output from the actual Core Ranger when it's wearing Knight's Amulet, you're doing something wrong. literally every build in the game can kite around and bunk vs. the damage from a Knight Core Ranger. If they can manage avoid the pet, the Ranger can't even pump out enough DPS to seriously down a SA DP Thief.

5k-9k Mauls are more typical of Marks/Beast/Soulbeast when merged for all the extra bonuses. And in that case they are absorbing and using the pet's damage for themselves, rather than allowing the pet to deal damage as an exterior vector.

DPS is not indicative of winning a fight. Ofc burst classes can be favored. But saying they should deal the same damage over a 60s period is insanity

So it sounds to me like you're saying burst classes should deal less damage than a big fat central AoE Bunker Team Support?

That doesn't even make sense dude. The burst class deals a lot of damage because it's a burst class.

May need to reevaluate your theory behind balance there.

I mean if I'm mistaken, please clarify what you're trying to explain.

I will keep it to two different builds on the same class, for clarification. Say I run symbolguard, honor zeal and valor. Put on a Marauder amulet, sword and scepter. This is an attrition build, I will win by pushing my enemy off the node and out-sustaining via honor.For arguments sake, say if you tank all damage for 60 seconds, you'll take 200k damage.

Build number two, I swap zeal for radiance and honor for virtues, I drop the scepter and equip a hammer. A burst weapon.Hammer has one ability that does damage, mighty blow on a 10 second cooldown. To be able to reach the same 200k damage, considering I can fit 6 casts into a 60 second period, each mighty blow would need to deal 33000 damage each.

In this scenario, no one would ever run the attrition build.

Same comparison can be done with core condi necro vs SA thief for example.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

many words to give no answer whatsoever.

Could you not figure it out for yourself with the 1) that I gave you?

The idea is that: "You feed a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he eats for the rest of his life." But this doesn't seem to apply in the forum. In the forum, you feed a man a fish and they keep asking for fish and act like you never gave them a fish. If you teach them to fish, they act like what you taught them is complete nonsense and in no way cohesive with the reality they themselves see. Gets tiring really, especially when you're actually giving people honest non-biased feedback.

If you couldn't figure it out for yourself, the combined damage output between the Core Ranger and its Pet, is actually significantly lower than other classes. The Core Ranger itself deals subpar Druid like damage outside of Maul every 6s that hits like a single Photon Forge auto at this point. <- That damage output is bad. However, the pet itself is dealing too much damage to the point that it's pissing people off because it's an AI.

Is it broken design? YES. Is it overpowered? NO. the damage distribution between the Core Ranger and the pet is seriously lopsided, and I can agree that it needs to be redistributed more equally amongst the Ranger and the Pet. But what Ranger and its Pet do not need, is some kind of massive rip to the overall amount of DPS that it is actually dealing over the course of a 30s to 60s 1v1, because Core Ranger and its Pet are believe it or not, already on the lower end of things when it comes to this. And most of that lower end DPS is single strike even, and is barely present at all for contribution in team fights. The reason why people feel like: "OMGERD THE PET IS SO OP" is because it can hit a high number every once in awhile, surprise them, and chunk off 8k+ damage right before that player is about to push a heal skill, and down them.

But just remember, that the big pet strike is all the Core Ranger has. If you were to shave even 20% damage off of those pets right now, Core Ranger would lose that big hit threat pressure, and would disappear. So people need to relax and understand that although the pet can hit large numbers, the Core Ranger overall is kind of bad. So if the pets are to be nerfed it needs to be done correctly. The first step to doing this correctly, is to identify that Marksmanship Modifiers are responsible for the big pet strikes. It isn't pet damage coefficients alone, and Sic Em isn't even being ran on these Core Ranger builds. If you were to go on a Ranger and let your pets auto a golem dummy, you'd see that the pet's autos and F2s aren't that big of hits without marks mods being present. It's Marks mods amplifying the pet strikes to a level where they are still hitting like old Mauls & WIs before nerfing. The problem with Ranger/Soulbaest damage output has always been, currently is, and will continue to be Marksmanship Modifiers. Each time Arenanet nerfs coefficients on weapon/pet damage, it just pigeonholes Rangers into being required to use Marksmanship to maintain damage output and further ruins the viability of other builds that aren't leaning on Marksmanship modifiers. And then wallah, you have Druids and other Ranger specs with bad damage unless they are blowing you up with the use of Maul/WI/Pet F2 strikes, that are all tied to Marksmanship modifiers.

Let me remind you of what these modifiers are doing, where the damage is coming from:

1. Ranger pet swaps, activates Clarion Bond which is this =
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild
   Pet is now unblockable
2. The Fury turns on
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Remorseless
   a +25% damage mod for both the Ranger and the Pet
3. Hit with Hilt Bash for CC to activate this
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moment_of_Clarity
   a +50% damage mod, effects Ranger and Pet
4. Ranger uses Maul first, which makes an additional damage mod for the pet
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity_(effect
   )
5. Upon this, other passive mods active are:
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loud_Whistle
   -
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pet%27s_Prowess
   - and then how Remorseless also reactivates Opening Strike, which makes the Pet Critical hit every first strike. This is in additional to a nearly guaranteed 10 to 15 stacks of vuln on the target before the Pet hits.
6. You're looking at: Pet Coefficient damage + 50% damage + 50% damage + 25% damage + 10% damage + 10% damage + w/e else is on sigils/runes, all active at the same time when the pet lands its F2 or some of these active when pets are autoing. <- THIS is why pets hit hard. It's not the kitten base coefficients on pets.

^ All of this is why Ranger/Soulbeast has always hit hard. Those mods that would normally only go the pet when activated, go to the Soulbeast when he is merged. The problem was never base weapon/pet damage coefficients.

Anyway, you tell me what's normal man. You tell me.

You STILL did not give me an answear, I could spend 15 hours of reading through every trait and every class interaction but I just dont care to do it.And you as a person that should understand is avoiding the question.There IS a problem, and I bet they are going to adress it, now is the time to give them ideas that wont bust rangers legs, or you can write wall off texts that @"bravan.3876" would be proud off, without giving any solutions.

Edit, this is how it looked for mesmers when I started, look where we are now. All im saying that your sweet sweet class might just end up as "balanced" as mesmer is.

[LughLongArm.5460]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

many words to give no answer whatsoever.

Could you not figure it out for yourself with the 1) that I gave you?

The idea is that: "You feed a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he eats for the rest of his life." But this doesn't seem to apply in the forum. In the forum, you feed a man a fish and they keep asking for fish and act like you never gave them a fish. If you teach them to fish, they act like what you taught them is complete nonsense and in no way cohesive with the reality they themselves see. Gets tiring really, especially when you're actually giving people honest non-biased feedback.

If you couldn't figure it out for yourself, the combined damage output between the Core Ranger and its Pet, is actually significantly lower than other classes. The Core Ranger itself deals subpar Druid like damage outside of Maul every 6s that hits like a single Photon Forge auto at this point. <- That damage output is bad. However, the pet itself is dealing too much damage to the point that it's pissing people off because it's an AI.

Is it broken design? YES. Is it overpowered? NO. the damage distribution between the Core Ranger and the pet is seriously lopsided, and I can agree that it needs to be redistributed more equally amongst the Ranger and the Pet. But what Ranger and its Pet do not need, is some kind of massive rip to the overall amount of DPS that it is actually dealing over the course of a 30s to 60s 1v1, because Core Ranger and its Pet are believe it or not, already on the lower end of things when it comes to this. And most of that lower end DPS is single strike even, and is barely present at all for contribution in team fights. The reason why people feel like: "OMGERD THE PET IS SO OP" is because it can hit a high number every once in awhile, surprise them, and chunk off 8k+ damage right before that player is about to push a heal skill, and down them.

But just remember, that the big pet strike is all the Core Ranger has. If you were to shave even 20% damage off of those pets right now, Core Ranger would lose that big hit threat pressure, and would disappear. So people need to relax and understand that although the pet can hit large numbers, the Core Ranger overall is kind of bad. So if the pets are to be nerfed it needs to be done correctly. The first step to doing this correctly, is to identify that Marksmanship Modifiers are responsible for the big pet strikes. It isn't pet damage coefficients alone, and Sic Em isn't even being ran on these Core Ranger builds. If you were to go on a Ranger and let your pets auto a golem dummy, you'd see that the pet's autos and F2s aren't that big of hits without marks mods being present. It's Marks mods amplifying the pet strikes to a level where they are still hitting like old Mauls & WIs before nerfing. The problem with Ranger/Soulbaest damage output has always been, currently is, and will continue to be Marksmanship Modifiers. Each time Arenanet nerfs coefficients on weapon/pet damage, it just pigeonholes Rangers into being required to use Marksmanship to maintain damage output and further ruins the viability of other builds that aren't leaning on Marksmanship modifiers. And then wallah, you have Druids and other Ranger specs with bad damage unless they are blowing you up with the use of Maul/WI/Pet F2 strikes, that are all tied to Marksmanship modifiers.

Let me remind you of what these modifiers are doing, where the damage is coming from:

1. Ranger pet swaps, activates Clarion Bond which is this =
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lesser_Call_of_the_Wild
   Pet is now unblockable
2. The Fury turns on
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Remorseless
   a +25% damage mod for both the Ranger and the Pet
3. Hit with Hilt Bash for CC to activate this
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Moment_of_Clarity
   a +50% damage mod, effects Ranger and Pet
4. Ranger uses Maul first, which makes an additional damage mod for the pet
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Attack_of_Opportunity_(effect
   )
5. Upon this, other passive mods active are:
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Loud_Whistle
   -
   https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pet%27s_Prowess
   - and then how Remorseless also reactivates Opening Strike, which makes the Pet Critical hit every first strike. This is in additional to a nearly guaranteed 10 to 15 stacks of vuln on the target before the Pet hits.
6. You're looking at: Pet Coefficient damage + 50% damage + 50% damage + 25% damage + 10% damage + 10% damage + w/e else is on sigils/runes, all active at the same time when the pet lands its F2 or some of these active when pets are autoing. <- THIS is why pets hit hard. It's not the kitten base coefficients on pets.

^ All of this is why Ranger/Soulbeast has always hit hard. Those mods that would normally only go the pet when activated, go to the Soulbeast when he is merged. The problem was never base weapon/pet damage coefficients.

Anyway, you tell me what's normal man. You tell me.

You STILL did not give me an answear, I could spend 15 hours of reading through every trait and every class interaction but I just dont care to do it.And you as a person that should understand is avoiding the question.There IS a problem, and I bet they are going to adress it, now is the time to give them ideas that wont bust rangers legs, or you can write wall off texts that @"bravan.3876" would be proud off, without giving any solutions.

Edit, this is how it looked for mesmers when I started, look where we are now. All im saying that your sweet sweet class might just end up as "balanced" as mesmer is.

" what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?"To be fair, it seems that @Trevor Boyer.6524, put some effort to try and give you an answer, but what was the point of your question to begin with?You just mentioned Mesmer as an example for a gimped class, Mesmer GS 2(Mirror Blade), buffs and debuffs at the same time, it is also range and Unblockable and on 5 sec CD. So what? What does it mean anything regarding Mesmer performance as a class? context is everything.

-Messing with GS power coefficient was a bad idea because it makes GS dame way too much reliant on 1-2 traits which are not even the dedicated weapon trait. Just tested maul damage on a medium golem with berserk amulet without the MM trait-line(Skrim/BM/NM, so I'm keeping 2 offensive trait-lines) Maul will do around 1.5k damage non crit, and just above 3k crit. You can test it yourself.

What they should have done instead of the SB changes that already went live, in my opinion is:

1) Sic 'em - CD increase to 40sec from 35sec, for the SB bonus, reduce damage bonus to 20% instead of 25%, .2)Attack of Opportunity - reduce bonus damage from 50%-40% , reduce bonus damage for the maul SB version from 25% bonus damage to 20%.3)Smokescale arch type changed from "Ferocious" to "Versatile".4)Gazelle charge, SB version, changed from 12 sec to 15 sec.5)Birds swoop, SB version, changed from 18 sec to 15 sec.

Messing with pets power coefficients is also a bad idea as pet may over perform in some niche situations(1vs1 duels) but greatly under performs in any other. Even in 1vs1, pets will not scale for WvW. So ya, ATM core rangers are kings of PVP lobby arena(and I can grantee that most of the complains are coming from there) . It will also take away the risk reward ratio between low hp glass cannon pets and tanky pets. Only pet skill that perhaps should be adjusted is the gazelle charge that does tons of damage+CC, which is a rule breaker.

To further balance Core ranger:Protect me - if the barrier stays , lower the base barrier by 50%, make it scale with healing power(like any other barrier skill in the game).QZ - Remove the stun break from the skill - Making this utility 40 sec, just made this skill better and a defensive tool(which was supposed to be a nerf in the first place). WS trait line already have a dedicated stun break.

WK-remove the fury buff from the trait. - It funny that brutish seals do only that(give fury), WK give it on top of ranger's best condi removal trait. Ranger has enough fury sources, WK should not be one of them, brutish seals is the fury trait for the utilities.

Child of earth - Increase CD to 35(as it was 30 sec when TU was 25 sec, before patch, so it should have been adjusted to begin with)

Remorseless -As it is now, every time ranger get the "opening strike" buff, pet will get it as well automatically, change it so pet will get opening strike on fury applied to the pet, same way as it works for the ranger. This change will massively reduce the number of times, pets will get this buff in 1vs1 situations.

Boom, everything solved. Now you can focus on all of the under performing aspects of the ranger class.

Problem is that the balance team have great limitations with what they can actually do, that's why they focus on skill splitting, which most of the time will result in lazy power coefficient reductions.

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

You STILL did not give me an answear, I could spend 15 hours of reading through every trait and every class interaction but I just dont care to do it.And you as a person that should understand is avoiding the question.There IS a problem, and I bet they are going to adress it, now is the time to give them ideas that wont bust rangers legs, or you can write wall off texts that @bravan.3876 would be proud off, without giving any solutions.RoflLets say quantity is one thing, quality another. To make me proud you have to have both^^ But when you know how to give high quality in easy and understandable form in low quantity then teach me pls. I am eager to learn to say what is say in more short form.Without rly checking his wall of text i can just say, that i never do a lot of words for saying nothing. It is a lot of words for a lot of data content.

I already said everything to the Ranger balance topic i had to say. I think Ranger (all specs) need a rework to more utility based pets, pets should in general have way less dmg (in particular on passive skills) and also no hard lock down cc on passive skills (they can have short daze on passive skills and hard cc on f2 with good animation and casttime on the pets skill). Some multiplier (Marksmanship for example even tho they have higher skill ceiling from the need to interrupt and not just spam hits) are a little bit too strong for that they can be stacked that well. But maybe just nerf pet dmg first (in particular birds and tiger builds are crazy) and then see if Ranger will be that much of a problem anymore.

Another idea would be to give the Ranger some animation-effect or symbol in the buff bar for when he uses f2, means the player can see when looking at the Ranger that he activated the (still instant) f2 pet ability and can split his focus to the starting pet animation. That would be a good thing to move more of the pets impact to the active f2 (like f2 can get a dmg buff when the passive skills get nerfed and when all f2 skills have good animations and casttimes. Imo birds also attack very fast).

And revert this nonsense pet swap deletion on Soulbeats and fix the real issues of the spec already.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

You STILL did not give me an answear, I could spend 15 hours of reading through every trait and every class interaction but I just dont care to do it.And you as a person that should understand is avoiding the question.There IS a problem, and I bet they are going to adress it, now is the time to give them ideas that wont bust rangers legs, or you can write wall off texts that @bravan.3876 would be proud off, without giving any solutions.RoflLets say quantity is one thing, quality another. To make me proud you have to have both^^ But when you know how to give high quality in easy and understandable form in low quantity then teach me pls. I am eager to learn to say what is say in more short form.Without rly checking his wall of text i can just say, that i never do a lot of words for saying nothing. It is a lot of words for a lot of data content.

I already said everything to the Ranger balance topic i had to say. I think Ranger (all specs) need a rework to more utility based pets, pets should in general have way less dmg (in particular on passive skills) and also no hard lock down cc on passive skills (they can have short daze on passive skills and hard cc on f2 with good animation and casttime on the pets skill). Some multiplier (Marksmanship for example even tho they have higher skill ceiling from the need to interrupt and not just spam hits) are a little bit too strong for that they can be stacked that well. But maybe just nerf pet dmg first (in particular birds and tiger builds are crazy) and then see if Ranger will be that much of a problem anymore.

Another idea would be to give the Ranger some animation-effect or symbol in the buff bar for when he uses f2, means the player can see when looking at the Ranger that he activated the (still instant) f2 pet ability and can split his focus to the starting pet animation. That would be a good thing to move more of the pets impact to the active f2 (like f2 can get a dmg buff when the passive skills get nerfed and when all f2 skills have good animations and casttimes. Imo birds also attack very fast).

And revert this nonsense pet swap deletion on Soulbeats and fix the real issues of the spec already.

1 Remove all passive pet CC2 Remove almost all pet damage, it should not hit for more then 2k3 Make pets MUCH more tanky4 Make pets support both ranger and his alliesa Apply vunlerability ( every hit )b give might to ranger ( every hit )c increase dmg/give damage ondifiers -> example, if pet is on oposite site of the enemy gain X% dmg buff for Ys5 Give Pets more active abilities, for 1 mobility, 2 Hard CC, 3 soft CC, 4 Utility6 Remove insane damage modifiers from rangers.. 50% dmg buffs are just stupid lol, lower then to reasonable ammouts of 10-20%.Increase maul CD to 12-15s, Increase maul dmg slightly.Make bonus dmg modifiers persist, no longer 1 hit, now they stay for set durationWhen you miss with maul the damage modifier lasts short ammount, 2-3s. When you land it, it will persist for MUCH longer, 6s.This is MY basic idea for rework, I bet there is plenty of things thats wrong with it but that is why fine tuning exists.

EDIT I try to make my texts as readable as I can make it, Making unnecessary wall of text to explain almost nothing is straight up wasting time for everyone.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard.

Literally a day or two ago a berserker daredevil got hit by a Tiger on stream for 4k and was like "wtf why is the damage so high?"

Like ???? hello you have 13k HP and are full glass yourself.

[apharma.3741]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard.

Literally a day or two ago a berserker daredevil got hit by a Tiger on stream for 4k and was like "kitten why is the damage so high?"

Like ???? hello you have 13k HP and are full glass yourself.

It's almost like a huge balance patch happened reducing a lot of damage and non broken classes have to use zerk stats just to do enough damage to actually be useful. Also the tiger chunked off 6k and he had 15k HP.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard.

Literally a day or two ago a berserker daredevil got hit by a Tiger on stream for 4k and was like "kitten why is the damage so high?"

Like ???? hello you have 13k HP and are full glass yourself.

Come on with the propaganda man.

If you're gonna post something like that, at least give us an explanation as to "what you were running if it had prot on at the time" and "Arome was a Core or a Soulbeast" otherwise I can't enter any founded discussion about a screenshot displaying numbers that has no details attached to it.

For all I know you were on some kind of Berserker Power Shatter Mesmer, and Arome was running glass cannon Soulbeast. I also can't see from that cropped jpg if you were in a team fight with 25 vuln above your head or if Arome was there and his team had 25 stacks of might on him.

Just, post details man. Post something that can be discussed.

[shadowpass.4236]

@apharma.3741 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard.

Literally a day or two ago a berserker daredevil got hit by a Tiger on stream for 4k and was like "kitten why is the damage so high?"

Like ???? hello you have 13k HP and are full glass yourself.

It's almost like a huge balance patch happened reducing a lot of damage and non broken classes have to use zerk stats just to do enough damage to actually be useful. Also the tiger chunked off 6k and he had 15k HP.

I'm talking about Kat's stream. He had 13k HP idk who you're referencing. Every single class can still do big damage if they take damage modifiers.

I got backstabbed for 7k on demo amulet not that long ago. Arcing Slices can still hit for 7-9k. Guardian can even hit 12k damage GS2's on paladins + dolyak runes or 9k on valor + virtues.

[apharma.3741]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Hey Trevor I got hit by maul yesterday while opponent was running rock deer.

y o u l l l i v e.

People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard.

Literally a day or two ago a berserker daredevil got hit by a Tiger on stream for 4k and was like "kitten why is the damage so high?"

Like ???? hello you have 13k HP and are full glass yourself.

It's almost like a huge balance patch happened reducing a lot of damage and non broken classes have to use zerk stats just to do enough damage to actually be useful. Also the tiger chunked off 6k and he had 15k HP.

I'm talking about Kat's stream. He had 13k HP idk who you're referencing. Every single class can still do big damage if they take damage modifiers.

I got backstabbed for 7k on demo amulet not that long ago. Arcing Slices can still hit for 7-9k. Guardian can even hit

12k damage GS2's on paladins + dolyak runes

or 9k on valor + virtues.

You're missing the point, the point is people aren't able to have toughness or they do no damage or in the case of thief they have no health.

Just in case your memory is a little short "People don't run toughness or physical damage mitigation vs. a full glass ranger and wonder why they got hit hard."

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Come on with the propaganda man.For all I know you were on some kind of Berserker Power Shatter Mesmer, and Arome was running glass cannon Soulbeast.

1st no, second yes.

Was playing glass thief. I didn't have vuln on me. That's damage modified by AoO vs no toughness.

Just, post details man. Post something that can be discussed.

Wish I had a screenshot of my condi bar when I got hit by that but it was pretty raw. He was soulbeast though.

I don't have anything to say about maul or soulbeast other than it's fine. I'm used to maul doing heavy damage and it deserves to do heavy damage. I can still get hit for almost all my HP on both that and WI alone.Maul is still useful, and saying that those skills lack damage output to justify the Cat/bird pets also doing 9k is insane to me. That's the only part I have a hangup with.

I'm not here to fight maul or Ranger/Soulbeast damage output in general. I'm here to say those other things that can clip you while you're looking to dodge maul shouldn't also do maul damage.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Every single class can still do big damage if they take damage modifiers.

See above.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Come on with the propaganda man.For all I know you were on some kind of Berserker Power Shatter Mesmer, and Arome was running glass cannon Soulbeast.

1st no, second yes.

Was playing glass thief. I didn't have vuln on me. That's damage modified by AoO vs no toughness.

Just, post details man. Post something that can be discussed.

Wish I had a screenshot of my condi bar when I got hit by that but it was pretty raw. He was soulbeast though.

I don't have anything to say about maul or soulbeast other than it's fine.

I'm used to maul doing heavy damage and it deserves to do heavy damage. I can still get hit for almost all my HP on both that and WI alone.Maul is still useful, and saying that those skills lack damage output to justify the Cat/bird pets

also

doing 9k is insane to me. That's the only part I have a hangup with.

I'm not here to fight maul or Ranger/Soulbeast damage output in general. I'm here to say those other things that can clip you while you're

looking to dodge maul shouldn't also do maul damage.

@shadowpass.4236 said:Every single class can still do big damage if they take damage modifiers.

See above.

Gotcha.

Though, no one is complaining about Soulbeast. People seem to complaining very specifically about Core Ranger Pet damage.

All I've been trying to do is point out how those big mauls are not coming from tanky Knight's Core Ranger builds, or even Demo Core Ranger. That stuff is only hitting for 3ks and 4ks nowadays.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:If pets lose a bunch of damage, Maul and Worldly Impact need their damage back as compensation.

Core Ranger and Soulbeast are barely hanging in viability above the bell curve.

Then soulbeast gets "too good" again.

Dunno. I feel like the stat nerfs on Beastmastery and no pet swap was enough.

Coefficients for melee damage need to return to normal imo.

what is "normal" for 6s cd, ability that buffs and debuffs at the same time ?

Normal would be determined by:

1. What is the practical damage output from other classes like it, in terms of DPS "actual damage per second" regardless of if that damage is being delivered in a single larger whole number that happens once every 6s or over the course of several smaller strikes that happen much more often that aren't easily avoided, such as FB symbol stacks.

You guys are caught up in syndrome of "looking at the whole number and not the entire build" in terms of damage output and how practical or impractical it is to land. And upon that, damage alone does not determine whether a build is good or bad or viable at all.

Let me give you the best example truth vs. what I mean, that I've ever seen posted in this forum. Something like this was said by some guy passing in and out of here, can't even remember his account name, but what he said is very true:

" Imagine a class that had only 1 health. Imagine if that class had only 1 skill that could be used. When the skill was used, it would have a 50% chance to instantly kill anything targeted but also a 50% chance of instantly killing the player who used that skill. The class would provide a 50% win rate against everyone regardless of the opponent's skill, and a 50% lose rate vs. everyone regardless of the opponent's skill. This new 1 health class with only 1 skill would actually be perfectly balanced, in terms of its ability to effect the outcome of a match, regardless of what tier of play it was in. But rest assured, players would still be in this forum saying that it was "over powered" simply because players in GW2 do not like things with heavy damage, regardless of how balanced it may actually be."

^ This all goes back to what I've said several times now in this forum, about players needing to differentiate between "when something is actually overperforming" and "when something is just obnoxious design" there is a big difference, and recognizing that difference during nerf discussion is the difference between actually fixing a problem or unfairly nerfing something into a state where it becomes unusable.

many words to give no answer whatsoever.

Thanks for the TL:DR, couldn't be bothered to read all that, but I expected as much.

[mistsim.2748]

Ranger is hot trash of a class. I've been playing this game since beta, and this is the lowest build diversity we've ever had. Beyond LB/GS, and a few utilities, the class is a complete mess. After 5+ yrs of glassbow Legolas poop, I'd like to try something else.

Pet damage is a red herring atm and the least important discussion we could be having. I don't care what is done to the pets. They need to fix our non-functional weapons and utilities. Delete the damn pets, seriously. Or as someone smart above mentioned, just give them utility skills (good ones) on their f2.

Is there any sign these devs play the class, or that they are even remotely aware of how bad its toolkit is?

Who's in charge of this rn and what are the next steps for balancing the game?

Also why am I still playing control point maps from 2012? Jesus Christ.

[Avatar.3568]

@mistsim.2748 said:

Also why am I still playing control point maps from 2012? Jesus Christ.

It's like in counterstrike, the mode was the only successful

But we have off-season modes now

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@mistsim.2748 said:

Also why am I still playing control point maps from 2012? Jesus Christ.

It's like in counterstrike, the mode was the only successful

But we have off-season modes now

give credit where its due, 2v2 added some freshness.