Core Elementalists problem is that it is impossible to compete with the weaver and tempest lines.

[God.2708]

I would venture to agree that tempests identity is not nearly as well formed as weavers, and there's likely some room for discussion around giving it a better give and take rather than just 'overload and your attunement is on a longer CD'. But, not really the topic.

I don't think touching either of them is particularly necessary. The crux of the issue is simply that because the elementalists elements are... type oriented (Water supports/heals, air ccs/damages etc.) the traitlines follow suit. This results in a very simple philosophy when build crafting for elementalist. You want to deal damage? Well fire and air deal damage, and weaver is the best damage augmentation. Done. What's that, arcane and water deal damage too? Right, but not as much as weaver, and they don't reduce fire or air CDs. Back of the line.

There are strides in this realm, IE fire is now a very nice balance of damage (both condition and power), and support (both boons and cleanse) that offers a very nice variety of synergies. The struggle is it's really the only traitline that does this. There needs to be a shift in the other traitlines that make looking at water for damage like they keep trying to do, or earth for self sustain actually feel appropriate, especially when combined with another core trait. Earth's Elemental shielding + Fire's Smothering auras should be a gimme combo for self sustain but instead it falls to tempest already doing that better both by giving more protection and by giving more auras.

[Stallic.2397]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@""draxynnic.3719"

:+1:

Most of e-spec come with a "new" gameplay, a new identity. So of course it encompass the core spec to mix or improve some facets. IMO this is not the case with Elem, not as distinct.

Tempest

with

shouts/auras

? Elem already got auras, auras were already one the major support gameplay of elem with the Water lane, there is nothing new. Worst, it shows how bad were the differents traits on auras before tempest and we lost or got nerfed some. Edit; By Major, I mean it was one of the few.

Weaver

: It's just dps elem but stronger, more sustainable. A bit like Soulbeast were Ranger but stronger, or daredevil to thief .... There is no real trade-off about weaver ; a 4sec CD on attunement and dual skills often stronger than core skills ... I've seen worst.

Elem lacks strong utility skills and traits able to support allies in a different way than Auras/shouts. Same for DPS, we need something to compensate the fresh-air overload from tempest (or nerf

Transcendant tempest

trait ) and all the skills and buffs traits from weaver (

Weaver's prowess, superior's elements, Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, elements of rage

... it's A LOT for an elite spec)

! Arcane could share "stronger" boons and some buffs without to rally on auras.!! > Arcane Prowess, and Arcane restoration : for 5 players! > Renewing Stamina : should compete with Latent Stamina. Apply to 5 players vigor and alacrity , or vigor you apply effectiveness +25%, something like that.! > Final Shielding is kitten : new trait ; arcane skills (Arcane power + the arcane healing skill + arcane wave) apply boons to allies based upon your current element ( Might/vigor/resistance/alacrity/quickness/unblockable/stab ...)! > Same for Elemental surge : give the +150 ferocity to allies affected with.!! Earth could make core skills a bit stronger to support allies!

! > Add a trait to share the bonus of Conjured Weapons to 4 allies. Signets could apply barriers or a combo field.....

! > Etc.!! For auras.! May be we could move Elemental Bastion from Tempest to Water, and Powerful Aura from Water to arcane or earth. Add a new trait on Shouts (-20% CD, larger range, +1sec to auras from shouts , shouts grants Resistance or Alacrity or +5% dmg..... )! Elemental Shielding could cast a Magnetic Aura. Same for Zephyr boons in Air-lane. So you could make Auramancer a Core build; And tempest will be more focused on Shouts rather than only making auras stronger.! For Weaver, honestly I don't know. May be low all the differents buff traits and upgrade a bit the power/heal base from weapons and core skills ? I don't know how to give a proper identity without break all the fun I have with.

I love weaver, so for me it's no hardship. However, to say that it isn't a tradeoff to be able to access only part of your skillset within a single swap at any given time is simply inaccurate. It is absolutely a limitation that you have to accept with weaver. You can ask the

many

players who really dislike the feel of weaver as a result of this. Again, for me it's absolutely perfect and fits like a glove. But it doesn't play like core ele

at all

. I call it quite brilliant, really. But your mileage may vary!

Now is that tradeoff compensated? Definitely! Weaver is amazing! I can agree that core ele does not measure up well to it.

Sadly everything that I love about Weaver in pvp was nerfed. No more stab, dual skills damage reduced, LR nerfed. The only good thing left is defense options from sword.

Otherwise, I'm one of those few that prefer core ele. The damage is stronger and less complicated rotation.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@God.2708 said:I would venture to agree that tempests identity is not nearly as well formed as weavers, and there's likely some room for discussion around giving it a better give and take rather than just 'overload and your attunement is on a longer CD'. But, not really the topic.

I don't think touching either of them is particularly necessary. The crux of the issue is simply that because the elementalists elements are... type oriented (Water supports/heals, air ccs/damages etc.) the traitlines follow suit. This results in a very simple philosophy when build crafting for elementalist. You want to deal damage? Well fire and air deal damage, and weaver is the best damage augmentation. Done. What's that, arcane and water deal damage too? Right, but not as much as weaver, and they don't reduce fire or air CDs. Back of the line.

There are strides in this realm, IE fire is now a very nice balance of damage (both condition and power), and support (both boons and cleanse) that offers a very nice variety of synergies. The struggle is it's really the only traitline that does this. There needs to be a shift in the other traitlines that make looking at water for damage like they keep trying to do, or earth for self sustain actually feel appropriate, especially when combined with another core trait. Earth's Elemental shielding + Fire's Smothering auras should be a gimme combo for self sustain but instead it falls to tempest already doing that better both by giving more protection and by giving more auras.

I think you may be right. Fire feels like it's in a really good place right now. The conjure and lesser cleanse trait don't compete well with the burn duration trait, but otherwise every trait feels like it has a legitimate purpose and the overall line feels strong and versatile.

Water is almost there, but could really use a look at the top tier traits. As you say, it needs damage. They should probably consider rolling that aura share trait over to Tempest to make room for some damage in water.

Earth I feel also really needs a look at the top tier traits.

I love arcane, but it feels underwhelming. The first tier traits are good, but second tier is irrelevant (except for final shielding in PvE) and while I love Evasive Arcana, the other two traits might as well not exist. This line needs some work.

Air is key for any power build and I like a lot of the traits. I'm not sure how I feel about this one. It might be okay or maybe just a little tweaking.

I still feel we need to do something to benefit core more than the elite specs, however. Again, I was thinking some sort of synergy between core trait lines which would naturally benefit a build using 3 core trait lines over a build using only 2.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

@""draxynnic.3719"

:+1:

Most of e-spec come with a "new" gameplay, a new identity. So of course it encompass the core spec to mix or improve some facets. IMO this is not the case with Elem, not as distinct.

Tempest

with

shouts/auras

? Elem already got auras, auras were already one the major support gameplay of elem with the Water lane, there is nothing new. Worst, it shows how bad were the differents traits on auras before tempest and we lost or got nerfed some. Edit; By Major, I mean it was one of the few.

Weaver

: It's just dps elem but stronger, more sustainable. A bit like Soulbeast were Ranger but stronger, or daredevil to thief .... There is no real trade-off about weaver ; a 4sec CD on attunement and dual skills often stronger than core skills ... I've seen worst.

Elem lacks strong utility skills and traits able to support allies in a different way than Auras/shouts. Same for DPS, we need something to compensate the fresh-air overload from tempest (or nerf

Transcendant tempest

trait ) and all the skills and buffs traits from weaver (

Weaver's prowess, superior's elements, Swift Revenge, Elemental Polyphony, elements of rage

... it's A LOT for an elite spec)

! Arcane could share "stronger" boons and some buffs without to rally on auras.!! > Arcane Prowess, and Arcane restoration : for 5 players! > Renewing Stamina : should compete with Latent Stamina. Apply to 5 players vigor and alacrity , or vigor you apply effectiveness +25%, something like that.! > Final Shielding is kitten : new trait ; arcane skills (Arcane power + the arcane healing skill + arcane wave) apply boons to allies based upon your current element ( Might/vigor/resistance/alacrity/quickness/unblockable/stab ...)! > Same for Elemental surge : give the +150 ferocity to allies affected with.!! Earth could make core skills a bit stronger to support allies!

! > Add a trait to share the bonus of Conjured Weapons to 4 allies. Signets could apply barriers or a combo field.....

! > Etc.!! For auras.! May be we could move Elemental Bastion from Tempest to Water, and Powerful Aura from Water to arcane or earth. Add a new trait on Shouts (-20% CD, larger range, +1sec to auras from shouts , shouts grants Resistance or Alacrity or +5% dmg..... )! Elemental Shielding could cast a Magnetic Aura. Same for Zephyr boons in Air-lane. So you could make Auramancer a Core build; And tempest will be more focused on Shouts rather than only making auras stronger.! For Weaver, honestly I don't know. May be low all the differents buff traits and upgrade a bit the power/heal base from weapons and core skills ? I don't know how to give a proper identity without break all the fun I have with.

I love weaver, so for me it's no hardship. However, to say that it isn't a tradeoff to be able to access only part of your skillset within a single swap at any given time is simply inaccurate. It is absolutely a limitation that you have to accept with weaver. You can ask the

many

players who really dislike the feel of weaver as a result of this. Again, for me it's absolutely perfect and fits like a glove. But it doesn't play like core ele

at all

. I call it quite brilliant, really. But your mileage may vary!

Now is that tradeoff compensated? Definitely! Weaver is amazing! I can agree that core ele does not measure up well to it.

Of course Weaver is perfect. It's the main class I play in WvW since PoF, even in PvP a time (mender sword dancer <3 cancer but fun )Everything is just so smooth and frantic at the same time. More dmg, more cc, more leaps, more sustaie ... I'm okai it needs some practice and fingers, this is absolutly not newbie friendly and need some personal investment.But there is no core build you can't upgrade with weaver :D/D fire/arcane, air/arcane wate/arcane. Fresh air Fire/air or air/arcane. D/F Lighntning rod. Staff fire/air or air/arcane. Condi fire, condi signet ... Everything is stronger with weaver and dual attacks and stances. Even Water support you can do it better than core, with Unravel, weaveself and the low cd of attunements to cast Clean wave, healing Ripple ...This isn't true for tempest. Tempest has its own builds and identity. It has just stolen aura niche particularity of core elem to make it its own, and has left nothing behind to make elem viable as support (even as DPS, with fresh-air tempest)

It might not be true in pvp, because everything got nerfed, even core.Tempest seems to be the most balanced spec nowadays, because of overload and hability to hold pressure on a cap, and the semi-support + dps you can grant.Core you have a faster access to leaps, schoking aura, frost aura ..., because on Weaver you need to abandon Unravel for stab (stone stance or the cantrip) or flash.

[fuzzyp.6295]

I've been thinking about Core a lot as I generally prefer to play Core instead of Weaver or Tempest. When trying to figure out what it was that set Core apart from its elite specs, my mind came to the conclusion that its flexibility and accessibility.

With Tempest, you are locked in your attunements for longer times to utilize the overload mechanic. Or, to make the best out of the classes support heavy abilities, you camp in water or earth for healing/defense abilities. You can't afford to attune to another element as freely and may even be punished for doing so at the wrong time with a longer cooldown. Weaver has the other issue, you are constantly cycling through attunements, its almost never a good thing to even remain in a single attunement for very long. Mixing and matching the abilities together give you strong skills to utilize but because you can't cleanly go into a single full attunment on demand, you have to constantly be managing your cool downs and at times need to be playing two steps ahead in order to react.

Core, on the other hand, lets you attune to your full attunement whenever you want. You get everything it offers on demand, if you need earth for defense/toughness, you don't need to worry about cycling through two attunements or reseting your overload's charge, you can just attune to it. It allows you to more freely pick and choose how you approach each battle. If this is the 'difference' between Core and the elite Specs, then ANet should probably double down on it. I don't usually like to make suggestions since they kinda just self-serving, but if I could, I would scrap the Unravel skill on Weaver and move its ability over to an F5 on Core Elementalist. This ability would instantly recharge all of the attunements on the Core Elementalist, no matter what cool down they're on and (perhaps when traited with some Arcane trait) remove abilities that limit the freedom of the elementalist (so perhaps a condi cleanse of chill/immo/cripple).

I really want Core Ele to stand on its own somehow. I love the class but as others have said, there is nothing that Core Ele can do that Weaver can't do better. I think the only way to get around this would be adding a class mechanic to core ele. As others have also said, if you buff the core ele trait lines, you also buff Weaver. Its making balance difficult. But a class mechanic would only exist on Core.

[Arheundel.6451]

@fuzzyp.6295 said:I've been thinking about Core a lot as I generally prefer to play Core instead of Weaver or Tempest. When trying to figure out what it was that set Core apart from its elite specs, my mind came to the conclusion that its flexibility and accessibility.

With Tempest, you are locked in your attunements for longer times to utilize the overload mechanic. Or, to make the best out of the classes support heavy abilities, you camp in water or earth for healing/defense abilities. You can't afford to attune to another element as freely and may even be punished for doing so at the wrong time with a longer cooldown. Weaver has the other issue, you are constantly cycling through attunements, its almost never a good thing to even remain in a single attunement for very long. Mixing and matching the abilities together give you strong skills to utilize but because you can't cleanly go into a single full attunment on demand, you have to constantly be managing your cool downs and at times need to be playing two steps ahead in order to react.

Core, on the other hand, lets you attune to your full attunement whenever you want. You get everything it offers on demand, if you need earth for defense/toughness, you don't need to worry about cycling through two attunements or reseting your overload's charge, you can just attune to it. It allows you to more freely pick and choose how you approach each battle. If this is the 'difference' between Core and the elite Specs, then ANet should probably double down on it. I don't usually like to make suggestions since they kinda just self-serving, but if I could, I would scrap the Unravel skill on Weaver and move its ability over to an F5 on Core Elementalist. This ability would instantly recharge all of the attunements on the Core Elementalist, no matter what cool down they're on and (perhaps when traited with some Arcane trait) remove abilities that limit the freedom of the elementalist (so perhaps a condi cleanse of chill/immo/cripple).

I really want Core Ele to stand on its own somehow. I love the class but as others have said, there is nothing that Core Ele can do that Weaver can't do better. I think the only way to get around this would be adding a class mechanic to core ele. As others have also said, if you buff the core ele trait lines, you also buff Weaver. Its making balance difficult. But a class mechanic would only exist on Core.

Core ele d/d cannot go toe to toe with anything given its range, current levels of damage and sustain...you cannot survive

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@God.2708 said:

@Yasai.3549 said:They need to give Cores a special Core weapon.

Heck if they do this for all professions, we will instantly see more build variety because I know for a fact many players play a certain build only because of the weapon and synergy.

Give Core Ele a special Core Rifle or something.

They'd likely achieve a lot simply by making weapons not e-spec locked. Leave the traits on the e-spec so they have to take if they want the reduced cooldowns or whatever bonuses, but it felt very gimmicky, albeit I guess somewhat thematic, to lock weapons behind a traitline.

I've been saying this for a while. Why do I forget how to use a sword if I don't slot weaver?

Yes, it opens up some possibly troublesome combos (Ele with sword/warhorn or Mesmer with axe/shield) but the worst offenses should be avoided by the limits on Traits and it's not like they have not left other surprise imbalance combos out there forever since PoF anyway.

As for trade offs to make core elementalist more viable, I think for Weaver the tradeoff is that they only get 2 elements, selected like Legends, and then they just swap the hand order.

Tempest is harder, as the main advantage there is overloading the elements. The only thing I can think of is that you can't come back to an overcharged element for even longer, or until you have passed thru at least 2 other different elements first (not necessarily overcharged, just attuned to).

Or, as suggested, maybe Elementalist only gets the elements that they have selected trait lines in the F1 to F4 swaps. That would however limit Core Ele to 3 (if they didn't take Arcane) and would keep Weaver/Tempest at 2. Or maybe the limits apply only to Weaver/Tempest, still allowing Core to have all 4.

If we limited Elements on Elites, I would think to balance against the loss of combat options it might need to allow weapon swap in combat on them. But that would need some extensive beta testing for balance before release, so I doubt that will happen.

[killahmayne.9518]

In my opinion it is a lot easier to balance around an idea that core elementalists have something unique that the other two classes don't. It's hard to buff up traitlines without inadvertently buffing the class specs unless somehow you can introduce synergies that somehow buff core specs the most. If you wanted to go that route, I think it would involve creating synergies between say Fire and Water, Air and Earth, or trait lines you typically wouldn't see together in a Tempest/Weaver build. But as you tinker around with things and balance over time this could become problematic.

You can tweak some trait lines for sure though.

I think for example certain traits are enhanced because you picked core or are lesser because you picked Tempest/Weaver. Or another thing is attuning to a certain element while a core player gives you an additional effect. Hell, maybe even add an "ultimate" F5 skill, something based on the traitlines you chose. For example if you chose Fire, Water, Arcane, form a ball of energy that explodes, inflicting damage, burning and healing after 2 seconds or some chit. Or if you chose Air, Fire, Arcane, unleash a powerful fire storm that knocks down and burns foes. Something cool like that.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

@"killahmayne.9518" said:In my opinion it is a lot easier to balance around an idea that core elementalists have something unique that the other two classes don't.[...]

It's like if Guardian had 1 or 2 symbols in CORE weapons with +40sec CD and 10 traits in CORE specs (zeal, honor) so they are useless as it stands ; but the elite spec Firebrand spread symbols every seconds .... so you need firebrand to make CORE TRAITS useful.It's the exact same thing here with Elementalist :You have useless traits on auras that nobody takes on core or weaver : Protection in earth, fury in air, on conjured weapons, when reanimating, cleanse in fire (may be the only viable trait on its own, for solo ) we lost the schoking aura in air, we got nerfed the frost aura in water ...

That why Elemental Bastion + Invigorating Auras (tempest) should be core traits, in Water or ArcaneFor example, powerful auras merged with elemental bastion, and soothing Ice or Renewing stamina + invigorating auras.Tempest : you keep Unstable Conduit and the elite skill for the lol (even if schocking aura + fresh-air need a nerf) you put other effects to shouts (Quickness, Resistance, Alacrity, unblockable, superspeed, "Flame Expulsion"...) and you put auras on traits, cantrips and glyphs. Like Elemental Shielding (2sec magnetic aura, 45sec icd) Armor of Earth (same), zephyr boon's (light aura), the healing glyph (2sec aura based on your attunement), rework the glyph of renewal ....In this scenario: AURAMANCER would be a viable CORE SPEC with different builds; and tempest would be a different support, with little improvements to auramancer.

[scerevisiae.1972]

IMO ele is in a good spot, both elite specs are good and traitlines are reasonably equal. i personally hate the weaver 4sec attunement CD, should be 2sec IMHO, D/D weaver with 4sec CD feelsbadman.

agree that core is much weaker than both elite specs, the only thing i can think of to make it more attractive again is reduce base attunement CD to 7sec, or make elemental attunement (boon on attunement swap) baseline to core ele and make the arcane trait extend the base boon duration.

[Downstate.4697]

Core ele is okay on its own. It succeeds in its role of being okay at everything. It offers a bit of support via boons and some healing, but less than tempest. It offers damage in the form of either full condi or hybrid builds (power by itself is too hard to pull off in spvp, somewhat viable in wvw) but lacks the damage and stats of a weaver. Its just okay at everything making it not ideal for any spvp team. I perform fine with cele or sage amulet on a core build (minus having to deal with blind and cc spam engis), but tempest is a better choice for team fights. Core is good at 1v1 so is better as a roamer, but not as quick as thief or ranger for rotations. Weaver is better at 1v1 though is a bit slower without RtL.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Make weaver only have sword and stances and tempest only wh and shouts and remove all traits except 1 line this would be best way. Weaver is not made to play with staff or other skills tempest same. Especs should honestly work like racials exist for flavour but never replace a pure spec in anything

[Tom Hsiao.9705]

It’s impossible to compete because they want you to buy the expansion duh ??? take the hint

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:Make weaver only have sword and stances and tempest only wh and shouts and remove all traits except 1 line this would be best way. Weaver is not made to play with staff or other skills tempest same. Especs should honestly work like racials exist for flavour but never replace a pure spec in anything

Wouldn't a better idea be to buff core specifically and not just the trait lines, which it shares with the elite specs? Give it an exclusive set of utilities and perhaps a passive and an active ability not available to the elites. The elites already have tradeoffs. Doing something like this would make the choice even more of a tradeoff. What you propose would simply kill builds that players currently enjoy. It's using a hammer to cut wood. There's a better way.