DPS meter policy needs to be revised

[Panda.1967]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.

Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons

, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

I'm not going to count the example you gave, it's too far removed from what we're discussing. It's a law because there is LIFE AND DEATH at stake in such a situation. If Arcdps could potentially endanger the lives of others by using it, then it would be gone faster than a sneeze. I don't think the bad outweighs the good. They're "snoozing" through such content, and you gave a tiny minority example of ONE person being badly behaved. But they're not "snoozing" through higher level content, where it actually counts.

Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

[Coconut.7082]

@Panda.1967 said:

@Nowaki.2136 said:To be honest i dont see how making a calculation of the damage ON A PARTY BOSS is invading your privacity, since the boss is public to the party, another topic would be to know exactly how YOU that one party member who wants to hide his dps DID that damage, wich is something it CANT do, but since the boss is open to the whole party is not privacy in terms of the damage dealt to it.

To be perfectly honest, I have a hard time believing the claims that ArcDPS estimates other party members damage based on damage taken to the boss that was not from the players using the meter.

Let me explain why.

If it truely does estimate damage in that fashion, then every player in a party who has no meter should logically be recorded as doing the same exact damage. If you're in a party of 5 players, and only 2 of them have meters, if an enemy takes 12k damage that is not sourced from one of the players using a meter, then the 3 without a meter should be recorded as having each done 4k damage. But this is most certainly not the case. It has been made quite clear over and over again, that each individual party member has their own recorded values for DPS regardless of if they have a meter themselves or not. In open world content this is even more evident. The meters are able to assign values to everyone participating in the event, which means that the meter is capable of obtaining data on individuals. It's not estimating. It may not be able to source the damage to individual attacks, but it certainly is able to source the damage to individual players.

There are no "claims", just facts.ArcDPS does not estimate damage of a player only by damage on the boss, your game client receives data about the other players in your party, you simply can't normally see it.Most of DPS is not estimated, it's calculated from the received game data, some skills/effects that are not properly shown by the client have to be estimated (move visible on Condition builds).My explanation could be slightly off because I never bothered to check exactly how it works, but if you want to know more, you are welcome to read about it on the meter's page (none of the calculations/methods are kept secret), or god forbid, try it yourself.With all that, the combat data your client generates is not considered personal by Anet, thus letting the meter use it for a party/squad is fine.

Consider looking into how things really work, before against them on the forum.

[AegisRunestone.8672]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

EDIT: and @"AegisRunestone.8672", the people you're talking about have behavioural issues. Nobody is being rude or a bad person just for using a DPS meter, it entirely depends on the approach of the person. Did you ever stop to consider the person can't use as sophisticated social skills as you? This is a melting pot of personalities. The person you're asking to "stop being a bad person" doesn't exist. There are many people. Reasonable, normal people are already being courteous and polite. People who aren't are not normal, and so perhaps we must taken special considerations for them too.

I never said otherwise about the person who lacks social skills. Because I am one of those.

@Panda.1967 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:

My first encounter with a player running ArcDPS was some emotional child who, from the beginning of the fractal run, couldn't shut up about what his dork meter was telling him. At the end of the first frac, everyone else in the group left. It was supposed to be a full daily run. The problem? This was a tier 2 fractal, and the group was moving through the content just fine. No, hiding performance is not the only reason a person would have problems with a global DPS meter.

Yes, he could have been annoying for a host of other reasons

, but he WAS annoying because of his meter.

There you have it.A reasonable, normal person won't do such a thing. They know it's casual content. Only someone with behavioral issues will act this way, and indeed, they'll do that with or without the meter. And I see no reason to ruin the perks of having Arcdps just because some people happen to have it and happen to be jerks.

Reasonable, normal people don't go out and get blotto drunk and drive a car, either, but we have laws against it anyway, because not everyone is reasonable. Regulating unacceptable behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of administrative authority. If the bad outweighs the good, and I would argue it does for casual content, because people were snoozing through this stuff years before ArcDPS existed, then it's not unreasonable to discuss removing the tool that is enabling the bad behavior.

I'm not going to count the example you gave, it's too far removed from what we're discussing. It's a law because there is LIFE AND DEATH at stake in such a situation. If Arcdps could potentially endanger the lives of others by using it, then it would be gone faster than a sneeze. I don't think the bad outweighs the good. They're "snoozing" through such content, and you gave a tiny minority example of ONE person being badly behaved. But they're not "snoozing" through higher level content, where it actually counts.

Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Good call.

[Llethander.3972]

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

[Wolfey.3407]

I just laugh at people who are more focused on playing the #'s then playing the game.If it makes your ego and ep**** feel better to play the #s instead of the boss then more power to you.

You're going to have people acting irrational no matter what rules are implemented.Even if the rule was implemented to restrict meters further, is anet actually going to enforce it?

Side note, I raid with people with DPS meters... doesn't really impact me negatively... it just gives me a laugh to watch themget all worked up when their #s don't meet their "Gods" and "Heroes" from a couple of guilds.

[Oglaf.1074]

Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument. When I first started raiding and the squad leader mentioned my DPS I was quite shocked that he could somehow "spy" on me like that. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't bothered by it. Quite a lot actually.

But on the other hand, Anet made the first mistake in making raids basically a DPS race with enrage timers and other silliness (such as being able to skip updraft at Gorseval if you have enough DPS, something with greatly speeds up the fight) so DPS meters are merely a reactionary necessity to something Anet designed to begin with.

[Shirlias.8104]

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

[Llethander.3972]

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

[DakotaCoty.5721]

I believe Chris Cleary made a "definition" of consent for GW2 and DPS meters along these lines:

• Upon joining a party/squad/grouped content, you are consenting to a person seeing your combat data.
• If you have an issue with it, you can ask if they are using meters and then decide to leave the party.

[Shirlias.8104]

It is the meaning of writing the following in lfg:

Lf experienced players with top dps/builds

You underperform or don't know the boss itself? Or maybe you don't have the right build and equip?

Then you deserve to be kicked.And if they do it in a rude manner you deserve it too for ruining by choice their game and wasted their time.

It's not that you slip and join a veteran party looking for other veterans. You deliberately chose to do it with all future issues for you and them.

Edit: guess we are stating the same thing and u simply didn't get my previous thread which was supportino my previous quote.

[Syktek.7912]

Said it before, others have said it before, and we'll say it again. You should not be allowed to hide your personal performance from a group who is relying on you to perform correctly. They should be allowed to see how well you are doing and they should be allowed to comment on that. This includes your knowledge of mechanics, your rotations (Which leads to your DPS being good or bad) and your overall ability to function. If you cannot do this and you are holding the group back there is no reason they should have to keep you around unless they so choose.

Many people don't mind carrying others, I certainly don't, but that doesn't mean they're required to carry you; especially if they started the group and asked for a knowledgeable player.

If you do not wish to have a DPS meter used on you to any effective manner create your own group. Form at whatever times you like, ban DPS meter mentions, ban people from judging other's performance and play it your way. It remains however: The second you join someone's group you forfeit your right to not be judged.

May Kormir enlighten you.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:I believe Chris Cleary made a "definition" of consent for GW2 and DPS meters along these lines:

• Upon joining a party/squad/grouped content, you are consenting to a person seeing your combat data.
• If you have an issue with it, you can ask if they are using meters and then decide to leave the party.

The problem with this, I have no power to tell who is using this tool. And even if I make my own group saying that dps meter players are nkt welcome, they csn still join and spy on me.

Current situation gives all the power to users of arc dps and no power to people who dont want to use it.

This is why I suggest the change mentioned in opening post.

[Javelin.7960]

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Javelin.7960 said:I didn't say it caused him to be rude, I said he was rude, in the way that he was, because of the meter. It's true, and I stated such in my original post, that he could as easily have been rude a million other ways, but the fact is he

wasn't

. The DPS meter enabled him, in that regard. Ignoring the DPS meters role in his behavior is, to re-use the analogy I used earlier, like declaring that drunk drivers will always find a way, so we shouldn't bother outlawing in car kegerators. The first part of the statement is true, the second is not at all.

Stop using this example, it doesn't work. You can't compare a drunk driver to someone with behavioural issues, that's beyond absurd. You don't go out of your way to drink drive, and you're not always drunk. Not to mention that life and death is a stake whereas this is a simple computer tool.

It's hyperbole, and it's a perfectly valid way to compare two concepts that are logically similar. The severity of either is beside the point, because I'm not arguing for equality of punishment between the two, just that your argument is logically similar to mine, hyperbolic or not. I could as easily have used cars, or guns, or really anything, the point is when people decide to behave badly, we don't ignore the tools they used to inflict their behavior on others.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

But what will you do about people who can estimate your contribution by looking at your rotation and buff panel. Aka the majority of players that care enough to use dps meter.

[savacli.8172]

@Shirlias.8104 said:It is the meaning of writing the following in lfg:

Lf experienced players with top dps/builds

You underperform or don't know the boss itself? Or maybe you don't have the right build and equip?

Then you deserve to be kicked.And if they do it in a rude manner you deserve it too for ruining by choice their game and wasted their time.

It's not that you slip and join a veteran party looking for other veterans. You deliberately chose to do it with all future issues for you and them.

Edit: guess we are stating the same thing and u simply didn't get my previous thread which was supportino my previous quote.

Another Ding Ding winner.

Players get it. Not everyone is good at the game or wants to be good at the game. Some players have fun doing fashion wars or RP-ing. By that same token some players have fun by winning/completing instances. And there are even those players that like to do instances fast as pain-free as possible GASP.

Whatever category you fall into everyone still gets the freedom to pursue their fun how they see it. Granted, there are consequences if you go about it the wrong way much like in the real world. If your idea of fun is to exploit, well, here's a ban. If you're idea of fun is to do T4 fractals or raids. Great! But make sure you find a group that's your fit. Otherwise, you're infringing on someone else's fun. And sure, we're all humans with varying degrees of social skills so it's not at all unreasonable to get the boot or come across a negative player. It happens, move on. If it's a reportable action, then by all means smash that report button.

Damage meters are just a tool, and as others have pointed out, the data being reported on is publicly available to begin with. Like any other tool though there was an intended way to use it (group evaluations, personal improvement), but of course people will abuse tools and use it for their own purposes.

[Syktek.7912]

@Wolfey.3407 said:I just laugh at people who are more focused on playing the #'s then playing the game.If it makes your ego and ep**** feel better to play the #s instead of the boss then more power to you.

You're going to have people acting irrational no matter what rules are implemented.Even if the rule was implemented to restrict meters further, is anet actually going to enforce it?

Side note, I raid with people with DPS meters... doesn't really impact me negatively... it just gives me a laugh to watch themget all worked up when their #s don't meet their "Gods" and "Heroes" from a couple of guilds.

I'm not focused on playing the numbers when I think about DPS. I'm focused on not spending an extra hour doing content that takes thirty minutes because one or more of my squad mates can't tie their shoes during the "Tie Your Shoes" phase for the Wardrobe Monster boss of Wing 10. Thus, because they couldn't tie their shoes we lost two players to the follow up "tripped over shoelaces and broke their face" mechanic that everyone who did tie their shoes made it past. Now we're down two party members and the Wardrobe Monster is ravaging us, stealing our shirts, shorts and raiding our mother's panties drawer all because those two people didn't bother to do something correctly.

And that was five minutes in, halfway through the fight, and now we have to start over. Why? Because two other members of our group knew the mechanics, but cannot output DPS if it would save their lives. Leaving six of us some of which are not DPS roles meaning we have no chance of killing the boss before enrage timer. Enrage hits and he steals our underwear and calls the cops on us for public nudity.

Game over man.

[Shirlias.8104]

@savacli.8172 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:It is the meaning of writing the following in lfg:

Lf experienced players with top dps/builds

You underperform or don't know the boss itself? Or maybe you don't have the right build and equip?

Then you deserve to be kicked.And if they do it in a rude manner you deserve it too for ruining by choice their game and wasted their time.

It's not that you slip and join a veteran party looking for other veterans. You deliberately chose to do it with all future issues for you and them.

Edit: guess we are stating the same thing and u simply didn't get my previous thread which was supportino my previous quote.

Another Ding Ding winner.

Players get it. Not everyone is good at the game or wants to be good at the game. Some players have fun doing fashion wars or RP-ing. By that same token some players have fun by winning/completing instances. And there are even those players that like to do instances fast as pain-free as possible

GASP

.

Whatever category you fall into everyone still gets the freedom to pursue their fun how they see it. Granted, there are consequences if you go about it the wrong way much like in the real world. If your idea of fun is to exploit, well, here's a ban. If you're idea of fun is to do T4 fractals or raids. Great! But make sure you find a group that's your fit. Otherwise, you're infringing on someone else's fun. And sure, we're all humans with varying degrees of social skills so it's not at all unreasonable to get the boot or come across a negative player. It happens, move on. If it's a reportable action, then by all means smash that report button.

Damage meters are just a tool, and as others have pointed out, the data being reported on is publicly available to begin with. Like any other tool though there was an intended way to use it (group evaluations, personal improvement), but of course people will abuse tools and use it for their own purposes.

The point here is that Nobody abuse of lfg.

Unless you think they randomly add players and don't care if they lose time cause of non veterano players.

There's a Job offer with specific requirements and somebody decides to apply not having the needed requirements.

I see no abuse with the ''Job offer'' itself as a tool.I just see selfishness from the one who decide to apply for the Job.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:I believe Chris Cleary made a "definition" of consent for GW2 and DPS meters along these lines:

• Upon joining a party/squad/grouped content, you are consenting to a person seeing your combat data.
• If you have an issue with it, you can ask if they are using meters and then decide to leave the party.

The problem with this, I have no power to tell who is using this tool. And even if I make my own group saying that dps meter players are nkt welcome, they csn still join and spy on me.

Current situation gives all the power to users of arc dps and no power to people who dont want to use it.

This is why I suggest the change mentioned in opening post.

If they aren’t using the tool to be toxic then what’s the problem, since you said you wouldn’t know, and it’s not spying since again since it seems to need to be said again, Combat data is not private or personal information/data.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

I'm a private person. I do not like current DPS meters.

I understand their value, and I appreciate the information they can provide. I like knowing that I'm capable of a certain level of effectiveness, or if that's not true, that I can do better with some changes. I also understand their ability to warp perception. DPS meters seem to increase the level of toxicity of this 'Burn! Burn! Burn!' mentality, where only specific builds doing a specific amount of damage are considered to be even playable.

What does it matter if two players are doing 40,000 dps, two are doing 30,000 dps, and one is doing 20,000 dps on a boss when 10,000 or 15,000 dps across all five would clear it in a reasonable time?

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a correct answer, or that some outliers on both sides of the argument can even understand the opposing viewpoint. As such, I'll simply repeat my opinion.

I am a private person. I do not like current DPS meters.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Diak Atoli.2085 said:I'm a private person. I do not like current DPS meters.

I understand their value, and I appreciate the information they can provide. I like knowing that I'm capable of a certain level of effectiveness, or if that's not true, that I can do better with some changes. I also understand their ability to warp perception. DPS meters seem to increase the level of toxicity of this 'Burn! Burn! Burn!' mentality, where only specific builds doing a specific amount of damage are considered to be even playable.

What does it matter if two players are doing 40,000 dps, two are doing 30,000 dps, and one is doing 20,000 dps on a boss when 10,000 or 15,000 dps across all five would clear it in a reasonable time?

Unfortunately, I don't believe there is a correct answer, or that some outliers on both sides of the argument can even understand the opposing viewpoint. As such, I'll simply repeat my opinion.

I am a private person. I do not like current DPS meters.

Combat Data isn’t personal or private info in any group setting.

[Javelin.7960]

@Syktek.7912 said:

@Wolfey.3407 said:I just laugh at people who are more focused on playing the #'s then playing the game.If it makes your ego and ep**** feel better to play the #s instead of the boss then more power to you.

You're going to have people acting irrational no matter what rules are implemented.Even if the rule was implemented to restrict meters further, is anet actually going to enforce it?

Side note, I raid with people with DPS meters... doesn't really impact me negatively... it just gives me a laugh to watch themget all worked up when their #s don't meet their "Gods" and "Heroes" from a couple of guilds.

I'm not focused on playing the numbers when I think about DPS. I'm focused on not spending an extra hour doing content that takes thirty minutes because one or more of my squad mates can't tie their shoes during the "Tie Your Shoes" phase for the Wardrobe Monster boss of Wing 10. Thus, because they couldn't tie their shoes we lost two players to the follow up "tripped over shoelaces and broke their face" mechanic that everyone who did tie their shoes made it past. Now we're down two party members and the Wardrobe Monster is ravaging us, stealing our shirts, shorts and raiding our mother's panties drawer all because those two people didn't bother to do something correctly.

And that was five minutes in, halfway through the fight, and now we have to start over. Why? Because two other members of our group knew the mechanics, but cannot output DPS if it would save their lives. Leaving six of us some of which are not DPS roles meaning we have no chance of killing the boss before enrage timer. Enrage hits and he steals our underwear and calls the cops on us for public nudity.

Game over man.

First of all this is just awesome.

I'd hope that everyone can agree that DPS meters should be available, in some situations. GW2 has at least two fairly different groups of people who play it, a whole lot of casuals who don't give a fig what their DPS numbers are, have no interest in being told, and consider this entire conversation an imposition on their casual fun. They are not wrong. Neither are the players who take the game more seriously, Raid every week, run through T4 fracs on a timer, and generally pursue maximum optimal performance, wrong. There should be a way for both to co-exist, and even for players to change their minds about which 'side' they are on, day to day.

I'm sure it's not an easy ask development-wise, but I'll say it again, the easiest solution to me is to make DPS info selectable at group creation, and visible to all in LFG. Casuals get their carefree groups, elite players get the accountability they want, everyone is happy.

[Feanor.2358]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

@DakotaCoty.5721 said:I believe Chris Cleary made a "definition" of consent for GW2 and DPS meters along these lines:

• Upon joining a party/squad/grouped content, you are consenting to a person seeing your combat data.
• If you have an issue with it, you can ask if they are using meters and then decide to leave the party.

The problem with this, I have no power to tell who is using this tool. And even if I make my own group saying that dps meter players are nkt welcome, they csn still join and spy on me.

Current situation gives all the power to users of arc dps and no power to people who dont want to use it.

This is why I suggest the change mentioned in opening post.

First, if you create a group saying dps meters aren't allowed, chances are you won't get players running them. Because player running meters usually care about being efficient, that's why they're running them in the first place. Hence they won't deliberately choose to waste their own time, save perhaps a few who'll do it just for the trolling.

Second, if that was to happen, I imagine the LFG will just become full of "no arc = kick". It will create whole new levels of elitism, all because of someone's misinterpretation of the idea of privacy.

[Zenith.7301]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:I want to stress out my issue with DPS meters. I am not in peace with the fact that after 4 years ArenaNet decide to walk away from their principles and allowed players to use this tool. I understand that it's easier to allow certain tool and cooperate with the dev to make it compliant to game rules instead of chasing players using it in the background.

However, allowing this tool has come with certain oversight that I hope ArenaNet is going to consider and fix soon.

Since the only allowed DPS meter at this point is ArcDPS I'm going to refer to it and its creator - deltaconnected - in this thread.

I accept that players have different goals and big succesful game like Guild Wars 2 should provide content and tools for different groups of players. Therefore I agree that DPS meter has its uses and there are people who benefit from using it and I am not going to advocate for 100% deletion of this tool.

Yet there is one thing I have issue with. I do not understand how is it possible that every player using this tool is 100% allowed to monitor my performance in game without my consent. I am not using this tool. So why is it possible for random people watch my DPS numbers?

I find this a big issue in terms of player privacy in game. ArenaNet does not allow gear inspections or naming and shaming exactly because of respect for players' privacy. After changing forums engine they even deleted tools like "thumbs down" under our posts to not spread unnecessary negativity amongst the community.

This is why I don't understand why they allowed people to spy on other players' performance (numbers, dps, whatever you call it) without our consent.

If the tool has to exist in the game, make it clear that it is by default only to monitor numbers of a player using it unless other players in group agree to share their numbers.

I think the DPS meters policy needs to be revied. This tool can cause unnecessary toxicity in groups, especially because me, as a player, have no power to control who's spying on me in game. I have no option to block other players watching me, I have no option to see who's using this tool and who isn't. And this is why I believe the only fair solution is to make deltaconnected change how ArcDPS works. It should be limited to personal DPS only unless other players agree to share their numbers from the tool.

Every party/squad leader has every right to require this tool in group content (since it's allowed) and every other player should be allowed to not agree to other players spying on their numbers.

I think this is very reasonable request that gives players back power over their accounts and their privacy that is currently violated by usage of ArcDPS.

---

EDIT: I am well aware I'm going to be accused of poor performance myself, taking revenge for being kicked etc. Well, that's not my story, sorry to disappoint. This tool is used outside of raids and even in raids, there is no requirement of doing top dps for anyone.

Every group has every right to request me to use the meter and share dps with them. But it should be my decision to join, not expect by default that every player in the game may or may not use this tool and judge me.

---

EDIT2: BGDM worked like this. People couldn't see your numbers unless you joined their server and share your numbers. It was okay then and this whole sub was fixated about this tool. Why is it bad now?

---

EDIT3: This repost has been made to respect forums rules.

Making people only able to see their own numbers makes the DPS meter obsolete, as a measure of performance is only useful as a relative measure to others in the group.

The whole point of a DPS meter is to be able to say with absolute certainty who's the weak link in DPS performance in a group.

Are there special considerations? Sure, the engineer could have spent some time rezzing or breaking a CC bar and have lower DPS, but such tasks are obvious to a competent group.

What's not acceptable is that one mainhand axe power necromancer or staff weaver doing diddly squat for DPS, holding the group back.

[Panda.1967]

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Llethander.3972 said:

@Panda.1967 said:Technically it can endanger the lives of others. Have you ever heard of something called Internet Bullying? If not you should look it up. There have been documented cases of people being driven to suicide over it, some of which originated from harassment revolving around use of DPS meters in online games. So, yes, DPS meters have actually resulted in real life deaths.

Being kicked out of a party because you are not adequately contributing to the content is most certainly not comparable to cyber bullying.

It is disrespectful towards the ones who created the party. And still players don't get it.

That's nice. But what if the one using the DPS meter is the one who created the party and s/he decides to kick someone for underperforming? It's most certainly

not

comparable to cyber bullying. I'm finding it difficult to see relevance to what I said or what I was responding to in your comment.

If you get kicked from a party for underperforming it's a simple matter of moving on and getting over it. It's a game and, therefore, not the end of the world.

There is a distinction between being kicked for underperforming, and harassment. And, yes, harassment over DPS meters happens. It's easy to say "just add the person on ignore and move on" but in reality, that doesn't solve the problem. The people who use DPS meters to harass others still exist, they still play the game, and they still harass others. And some people have the misfortune of running into such people on a regular basis. There are even a lot of people who's behavior over DPS meters falls under harassment, even though they don't intend it to be. Some of them are apologetic when they realize it, others are not. I've personally encountered quite a few people like that. Many of the ones who are not apologetic about it, believe they have done no wrong even when the facts are stacked against them. I was in a party once where a guy's behavior over the DPS meter crossed into harassment, and the entire party got onto him about it, his response was "I didn't mean to harass anyone, but you all should just grow a backbone. It's not like I actually did anything wrong." needless to say we promptly kicked the guy afterwards.

I have seen this sort of behavior across several MMOs. It's the same in all of them. And every single one of them has had a marked increase in such behavior the instant DPS meters appeared on them. GW2 is no exception to this. Yes, we had people who acted like this before DPS meters, but the number of people who behave in this manner INCREASED when DPS meters were allowed. Some people want to be jerks but won't act on impulses unless they have empirical data to back them up, or unless things just stack up to a point that they just go off. Give these people DPS meters, and they WILL use the information on them as a weapon.

[Halandir.3609]

Kudo's OP: You pretty much nailed it and I agree.Anet caved and the only options seem to be: Play with closeknit friends or just walk away.

Most comparable games have (though often convoluted) just as welcoming communities as GW2 .Yeah, I walked, I miss parts of GW but am currently happier elsewhere.