Time for an in house DPS/Heal meter.

Taril.8619 · July 12, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

How ever, reason why you need DPS measurement tools is because how hard the content is.

No, the reason you need DPS measurement tools is because without them, it's hard to actually discern the differences between getting better gear, picking better traits and getting better at playing your class on your DPS.

Open world mobs fall over if you sneeze near them. Bosses have high enough health pools that your individual damage won't have much appreciable effect on their health bars. The only way to really tell if you're playing well and improving or flailing around with a meme build is via DPS measuring tools.

@Lumikki.1725 said:As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence.

No, it's DPS because, like in every single game that has ever existed, DPS scales infinitely with regard to the affect it has on content (Well, up until you can literally insta-kill every available target).

Every additional point of DPS you get, shaves the time to kill an enemy by a fraction.

With defences and healing, there's hard caps for how useful they are. If you're tanky enough to survive an encounter, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more tanky. If you can heal up all the incoming damage, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more healing.

Once Tanks/Healers have met their goals of being able to survive/heal through an encounter, the only thing that's left to focus on, is DPS. Since as mentioned earlier, DPS is always relevant.

The only time additional defence/healing matters, is if it allows for more DPS because the Healer/Tank can forgo their own roles and focus on DPS (In a way that outperforms both players having more balanced builds)

It's a fundamental flaw at the heart of the RPG genre as a whole, there simply hasn't been invented a system where defence and healing can actually scale infinitely with an appreciable effect on encounters (Outside of mechanics that convert them into DPS). Nor has there been any attempts to provide a hard limit on DPS where it stops being beneficial to encounters from increasing it (With exception from some older JRPG's, such as when Final Fantasy had a damage cap of 9999 making additional damage stats redundant)

Lumikki.1725 · July 12, 2020

@Taril.8619 said:
@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"AliamRationem.5172" said:It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

How ever, reason why you need DPS measurement tools is because how hard the content is.

No, the reason you need DPS measurement tools is because without them, it's hard to actually discern the differences between getting better gear, picking better traits and getting better at playing your class on your DPS.

Open world mobs fall over if you sneeze near them. Bosses have high enough health pools that your individual damage won't have much appreciable effect on their health bars. The only way to really tell if you're playing well and improving or flailing around with a meme build is via DPS measuring tools.

If all content would be so that when you "sneeze near" them, they die, what would be measurement tools needed?My point is that I disagree that measurement tool and content hardeness isn't related, because they are.

@Lumikki.1725 said:As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence.

No, it's DPS because, like in every single game that has ever existed, DPS scales infinitely with regard to the affect it has on content (Well, up until you can literally insta-kill every available target).

Every additional point of DPS you get, shaves the time to kill an enemy by a fraction.

With defences and healing, there's hard caps for how useful they are. If you're tanky enough to survive an encounter, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more tanky. If you can heal up all the incoming damage, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more healing.

Once Tanks/Healers have met their goals of being able to survive/heal through an encounter, the only thing that's left to focus on, is DPS. Since as mentioned earlier, DPS is always relevant.

The only time additional defence/healing matters, is if it allows for more DPS because the Healer/Tank can forgo their own roles and focus on DPS (In a way that outperforms both players having more balanced builds)

It's a fundamental flaw at the heart of the RPG genre as a whole, there simply hasn't been invented a system where defence and healing can actually scale infinitely with an appreciable effect on encounters (Outside of mechanics that convert them into DPS). Nor has there been any attempts to provide a hard limit on DPS where it stops being beneficial to encounters from increasing it (With exception from some older JRPG's, such as when Final Fantasy had a damage cap of 9999 making additional damage stats redundant)

I was taking active defence, not about tanking or healing. While I do agree that "Holy Trinity combat" has flaws, I don't think this kind of DPS only combat is much better. As long it doesn't really have active defence.

Taril.8619 · July 12, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"AliamRationem.5172" said:It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

How ever, reason why you need DPS measurement tools is because how hard the content is.

No, the reason you need DPS measurement tools is because without them, it's hard to actually discern the differences between getting better gear, picking better traits and getting better at playing your class on your DPS.

Open world mobs fall over if you sneeze near them. Bosses have high enough health pools that your individual damage won't have much appreciable effect on their health bars. The only way to really tell if you're playing well and improving or flailing around with a meme build is via DPS measuring tools.

If all content would be so that when you "sneeze near" them, they die, what would be measurement tools needed?My point is that I disagree that measurement too and content hardest isn't related.

The measurement tools required in the case of all enemies dying near instantly, would be player count measurement tools, because there'd be 0 people playing the game since it would be super boring if everything died as easily as OW trash mobs (OW content is very popular, but that's due to more interesting encounters such as Bounties, World Bosses, Meta's with bosses and events that scale with people making the trash actually tanky and dangerous)

@Lumikki.1725 said:As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence.

No, it's DPS because, like in every single game that has ever existed, DPS scales infinitely with regard to the affect it has on content (Well, up until you can literally insta-kill every available target).

Every additional point of DPS you get, shaves the time to kill an enemy by a fraction.

With defences and healing, there's hard caps for how useful they are. If you're tanky enough to survive an encounter, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more tanky. If you can heal up all the incoming damage, that's it you gain nothing else from getting more healing.

Once Tanks/Healers have met their goals of being able to survive/heal through an encounter, the only thing that's left to focus on, is DPS. Since as mentioned earlier, DPS is always relevant.

The only time additional defence/healing matters, is if it allows for more DPS because the Healer/Tank can forgo their own roles and focus on DPS (In a way that outperforms both players having more balanced builds)

It's a fundamental flaw at the heart of the RPG genre as a whole, there simply hasn't been invented a system where defence and healing can actually scale infinitely with an appreciable effect on encounters (Outside of mechanics that convert them into DPS). Nor has there been any attempts to provide a hard limit on DPS where it stops being beneficial to encounters from increasing it (With exception from some older JRPG's, such as when Final Fantasy had a damage cap of 9999 making additional damage stats redundant)

I was taking active defence, not about tanking or healing. While I do agree that "Holy Trinity combat" has flaws, I don't think this kind of DPS only combat is much better. As long it doesn't really have active defence.

We literally have active defence though. Dodge rolls. Many classes also have utilities that provide defense too.

Active defence has zero impact on the focus of DPS though. Even where it's required, it's still "DPS" as the priority, you just work in the active defence where necessary.

The only things that compete with DPS are Defence and Healing which are completely disregarded by DPS players and are only relevant to Tanks/Healers.

kharmin.7683 · July 12, 2020

@Taril.8619 said:
How ever, reason why you need DPS measurement tools is because how hard the content is.

No, the reason you need DPS measurement tools is because without them, it's hard to actually discern the differences between getting better gear, picking better traits and getting better at playing your class on your DPS.

Open world mobs fall over if you sneeze near them. Bosses have high enough health pools that your individual damage won't have much appreciable effect on their health bars. The only way to really tell if you're playing well and improving or flailing around with a meme build is via DPS measuring tools.

Which is fine. Make the tool personal only.

mindcircus.1506 · July 12, 2020

@"Nephalem.8921" said:Gear inspect and a better api that includes combat data would be awesome but it just wont happen. Remember that dev resources are limited and i would rather have them on content, ui improvements or even engine improvements than something that already exists in a 3rd party application.I'm not sure "limited dev resources" is an adequate reason to not add this.Arc is developed by a single unpaid hobbyist in their spare time. The only reason Arc no longer includes a Gear Inspect feature is that Anet asked Deltaconnected to not include the feature.The toxic casuals are also very vocal about everything raiders or dungeon players like even when they are not playing that content anyways. Gear inspect, while pretty common in all other games, is for some reason an arch enemy to this crowd. Even raid rewards are still too high for some of these even when all current open world farms make more than 2times the g/h of a speedrun guild clearing all raids in 3h. Imagine their nerdrage with something like an anet dps meter coming.That same segment of the community babyrages over giveaways and contests.Anet still does giveaways and contests.

Lumikki.1725 · July 12, 2020

@"Taril.8619" said:The measurement tools required in the case of all enemies dying near instantly, would be player count measurement tools, because there'd be 0 people playing the game since it would be super boring if everything died as easily as OW trash mobs (OW content is very popular, but that's due to more interesting encounters such as Bounties, World Bosses, Meta's with bosses and events that scale with people making the trash actually tanky and dangerous)

That's just personal playing styles choises as what player want's from content. Not all players want high challenge. I don't mean that game should not have challenges, I just say that this reflects just for personal taste of content.

We literally have active defence though. Dodge rolls. Many classes also have utilities that provide defense too.
Active defence has zero impact on the focus of DPS though. Even where it's required, it's still "DPS" as the priority, you just work in the active defence where necessary.
The only things that compete with DPS are Defence and Healing which are completely disregarded by DPS players and are only relevant to Tanks/Healers.

Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.

At the moment the challenge in this game is nothing more that increase of enemies HP (and some damage) and player counter effect that by trying to maximize they DPS. Base combat is same from start. Without active defence you just move and dodge as avoiding been hit. This isn't bad think it self, because at least it's movement compared to "Holy Trinity" combat. But this combat still has major flaws in defencive side as been too offensive only.

mindcircus.1506 · July 12, 2020

@"sorudo.9054" said:anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea, if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.also, as long as this kind of discrimination happens i will always hate raids, it's nothing but toxicity and doesn't add anything to the game.So basically your stance is this."If my role is to hit the boss and I am not doing it, it's Anet's fault for making me have to hit the boss. Anyone who calls me out for not hitting the boss is toxic, any tool that shows I am not hitting the boss breeds toxicity."but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.Carrying people who don't care enough about the group's goal to perform their role (because getting carried is "fun" for them) is not as enjoyable as having a team mate who actively contributes to the squad's success.

Cyndercat.7615 · July 12, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"Taril.8619" said:The measurement tools required in the case of all enemies dying near instantly, would be player count measurement tools, because there'd be 0 people playing the game since it would be super boring if everything died as easily as OW trash mobs (OW content is very popular, but that's due to more interesting encounters such as Bounties, World Bosses, Meta's with bosses and events that scale with people making the trash actually tanky and dangerous)

That's just personal playing styles choises as what player want's from content. Not all players want high challenge. I don't mean that game should not have challenges, I just say that this reflects just for personal taste of content.

We literally have active defence though. Dodge rolls. Many classes also have utilities that provide defense too.
Active defence has zero impact on the focus of DPS though. Even where it's required, it's still "DPS" as the priority, you just work in the active defence where necessary.
The only things that compete with DPS are Defence and Healing which are completely disregarded by DPS players and are only relevant to Tanks/Healers.

Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.

At the moment the challenge in this game is nothing more that increase of enemies HP (and some damage) and player counter effect that by trying to maximize they DPS. Base combat is same from start. Without active defence you just move and dodge as avoiding been hit. This isn't bad think it self, because at least it's movement compared to "Holy Trinity" combat. But this combat still has major flaws in defencive side as been too offensive only.

Fractals uses tons of active defense. Especially CM's. 99% of it comes from firebrand spamming aegis/stability. DPS dont need to take it as the fb will cover it for whole group. For the other 1% in raids ect, heal scourge can cover it with barriers. Again supports provide the defense, not dps.

Lumikki.1725 · July 12, 2020

@zombyturtle.5980 said:
@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"Taril.8619" said:The measurement tools required in the case of all enemies dying near instantly, would be player count measurement tools, because there'd be 0 people playing the game since it would be super boring if everything died as easily as OW trash mobs (OW content is very popular, but that's due to more interesting encounters such as Bounties, World Bosses, Meta's with bosses and events that scale with people making the trash actually tanky and dangerous)

That's just personal playing styles choises as what player want's from content. Not all players want high challenge. I don't mean that game should not have challenges, I just say that this reflects just for personal taste of content.

We literally have active defence though. Dodge rolls. Many classes also have utilities that provide defense too.
Active defence has zero impact on the focus of DPS though. Even where it's required, it's still "DPS" as the priority, you just work in the active defence where necessary.
The only things that compete with DPS are Defence and Healing which are completely disregarded by DPS players and are only relevant to Tanks/Healers.

Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.

At the moment the challenge in this game is nothing more that increase of enemies HP (and some damage) and player counter effect that by trying to maximize they DPS. Base combat is same from start. Without active defence you just move and dodge as avoiding been hit. This isn't bad think it self, because at least it's movement compared to "Holy Trinity" combat. But this combat still has major flaws in defencive side as been too offensive only.

Fractals uses tons of active defense. Especially CM's. 99% of it comes from firebrand spamming aegis/stability. DPS dont need to take it as the fb will cover it for whole group. For the other 1% in raids ect, heal scourge can cover it with barriers. Again supports provide the defense, not dps.

I can understand this, but that starts to sound little bit like "holy trinity". DPS doing damage and support providing the defence. Only think what's missing is the tank.

AliamRationem.5172 · July 12, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"AliamRationem.5172" said:It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

While you right, this games combat focus is DPS and DPS-lite as you say. How ever, reason why you need DPS measurement tools is because how hard the content is. Not all group content should have to be so challenging that it requires DPS measurement tools. As for DPS been the main thing in combat, that's only because this game lacks active defence. That is actually this games biggest failure in combat, been just DPS. Only class what has even little bit active defence, what I know, is Guardian. But as long some defensive attributes has so little meaning in this game and some stuff even totally ignores them, this games combat will be just full DPS and notting more. That's why I call this games combat "headless chiken dance" because only real defence what player really has in this game is avoiding to be hit by enemies, using movement and dodge.

How ever, not really worth of talking, because as far I have learn to understand about this game, game developers don't really fix anyting, they just fine tune some stuff.

So, what's your alternative? You seem to be suggesting that making things easier so that damage doesn't matter is going to make things better. How do you figure?

Nephalem.8921 · July 13, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.
Of course it is active defence. It gives you 100% damage reduction from incoming sources, prevents almost all cc effects and prevents condition application. Lasts 0.75sec and moves you for 300units. 10sec cd. Its not just wildstars dodge that was really just movement. it is almost invulnerability. Mirages dont move with it aswell.Also lots of skills you described exist which are also the reason why chrono can tank most bosses without any vitality or toughness and why necro shroud is just bad in instanced pve. Have you raided? Warrior does even take a shield offhand to tank the wyvern in w6.

maddoctor.2738 · July 13, 2020

@"Lumikki.1725" said:Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.

You have a weird idea of what Active Defense is. "Reducing" the effect of attacks is passive defense, not active, where you take a hit and mitigate it with lots of armor/health. Active defense is when you do something to defend yourself, like dodge rolling. One of the reasons passive defense isn't as useful in this game is because active defense is very very good.Take a look at these active defense skills:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aegis https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distortion https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge

Other ways to use active defense is to protect yourself from certain enemy attacks, like reflecting projectileshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflector gaining immunity to conditionshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resistance

Active Defense is one of this game's better aspects, it's what makes combat more interesting than having armor/health values.

DanAlcedo.3281 · July 13, 2020

Dps/heal meter is a maybe but a gear check is a no

Because i dont have enough medicine for all the migraine i would get from looking at my zergs gear.

sorudo.9054 · July 13, 2020

@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:
@Walhalla.5473 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:
@Lyttle.9426 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:a big fat NO

a little skinny WHY NOT?

because all it does is bread negativity, discrimination and nothing but a bad flow in-game.if it was up to me i would ban arcDPS from the game and ban ppl from using it, DPS is absolutely useless when you suck at the game.

Actuaklly a DPS meter does the opposite. I created an environment where its easier for people to go into groups and prove themselves. Class discrimination was also diminished hard by arc dps.

Let me take you back to a time where we had no legal means of seeing each others dps. Back in HoT times where in raids we had the infamous mirror comps, with 6 supporters and 4 dpslers. Those dps roles? Reserved for eles. The community had the perception that an Ele would always outdps just everything. Other classes in most groups were only taken if no ele would show up for a while and if the group would not meet the dps requirement, the non ele would always be kicked. Example, No updraft Gorseval. Group has 3 Eles and one Dragonhunter but fails to do enough damage to do no updraft Gorseval. Who gets kicked? The Dragonhunter. Because it was "common knowledge" that the ele would always do enough damage and so it was the Dragonhunter who was the weakest link for not building an Ele. Doesn't matter if the DH actually did the most damage or not, he would still getting kicked because everyone thinks that he was the weakest link in the group and if the one who actually did no damage is still in the group then nothing was solved and the group would still wipe on that boss.Now same scenario but with an actual dps meter. Group fails and leader looks at the damage the group did and finds out, 2 Eles and the DH were doing enough but one of the eles was just doing as much as the chrono tank. The leader now knows where the problem is and can act based on actual information instead of perception and class discrimination. Also the new place would be free to any dps class. Even a reaper could show up and pull its own weight ( reapers had the reputation of doing kitten damage, and without an actual dps meter it would have no chance of getting into the group )

Today, most raid groups ojnly kick you for bad dps if your damage is actually bad ( like under 10k without doing mechanics or even worse doing as much as the dedicated healers ). Doing just enough is actually that. Enough to actually stay in the raid group.

anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea, if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.also, as long as this kind of discrimination happens i will always hate raids, it's nothing but toxicity and doesn't add anything to the game.

but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

your lack of imagination is mind blowing, do you really know only DPS and nothing more?what about mechanics that kills a boss easier, what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist, i would ether make raids actually fun (lower difficulty) or change it so DPS isn't the main way to play raids.

Taril.8619 · July 13, 2020

@sorudo.9054 said:
@AliamRationem.5172 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:
@Walhalla.5473 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:
@Lyttle.9426 said:
@sorudo.9054 said:a big fat NO

a little skinny WHY NOT?

because all it does is bread negativity, discrimination and nothing but a bad flow in-game.if it was up to me i would ban arcDPS from the game and ban ppl from using it, DPS is absolutely useless when you suck at the game.

Actuaklly a DPS meter does the opposite. I created an environment where its easier for people to go into groups and prove themselves. Class discrimination was also diminished hard by arc dps.

Let me take you back to a time where we had no legal means of seeing each others dps. Back in HoT times where in raids we had the infamous mirror comps, with 6 supporters and 4 dpslers. Those dps roles? Reserved for eles. The community had the perception that an Ele would always outdps just everything. Other classes in most groups were only taken if no ele would show up for a while and if the group would not meet the dps requirement, the non ele would always be kicked. Example, No updraft Gorseval. Group has 3 Eles and one Dragonhunter but fails to do enough damage to do no updraft Gorseval. Who gets kicked? The Dragonhunter. Because it was "common knowledge" that the ele would always do enough damage and so it was the Dragonhunter who was the weakest link for not building an Ele. Doesn't matter if the DH actually did the most damage or not, he would still getting kicked because everyone thinks that he was the weakest link in the group and if the one who actually did no damage is still in the group then nothing was solved and the group would still wipe on that boss.Now same scenario but with an actual dps meter. Group fails and leader looks at the damage the group did and finds out, 2 Eles and the DH were doing enough but one of the eles was just doing as much as the chrono tank. The leader now knows where the problem is and can act based on actual information instead of perception and class discrimination. Also the new place would be free to any dps class. Even a reaper could show up and pull its own weight ( reapers had the reputation of doing kitten damage, and without an actual dps meter it would have no chance of getting into the group )

Today, most raid groups ojnly kick you for bad dps if your damage is actually bad ( like under 10k without doing mechanics or even worse doing as much as the dedicated healers ). Doing just enough is actually that. Enough to actually stay in the raid group.

anything that prevents me from actually playing is a bad idea, if DPS is the only thing ppl care about then Anet needs to do something about that like actually making the game challenging without focusing on DPS.also, as long as this kind of discrimination happens i will always hate raids, it's nothing but toxicity and doesn't add anything to the game.

but please, convince me otherwise, have a group that doesn't care about DPs as long as it's fun but don't come to me crying when that very thing is impossible because of arcDPS.

It's not impossible because of arcdps. It's impossible because this game already lacks defined roles. We have DPS and then we have DPS-lite which we call support, but which basically exists only because it produces higher group DPS than filling those roles with more DPS. What would you replace that with? Nothing? So what do these roles do exactly? Just run around performing...other mechanics? Is this a battle or a puzzle we're talking about here?

what about mechanics that kills a boss easier

Like DPS?

@sorudo.9054 said:what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?

Uhh... That won't stop DPS being so focused on. It just means that you want more burst DPS and less sustained DPS (I.e. You just invalidate Condition builds)

@sorudo.9054 said:for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.

Okay... So you have 1 tank per generator to deal with that mechanic. While everyone else focuses on DPS for when the shields drop.

@sorudo.9054 said:also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.

Plenty of people play for fun in games with DPS meters.

In fact, arcDPS has increased the ability to play for fun for many players, due to being able to show that they provide competitive damage when playing fun off-meta builds

@sorudo.9054 said:if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist

So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

kharmin.7683 · July 13, 2020

@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

Taril.8619 · July 13, 2020

@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

And others would find it fun.

Ergo, it can be considered a fun feature.

Is it fun for EVERYONE? No, but that's not the qualification of a fun feature. If it was, nothing in the game would exist because someone will find it unfun.

kharmin.7683 · July 13, 2020

@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

And others would find it fun.

Ergo, it can be considered a fun feature.

Is it fun for

EVERYONE

? No, but that's not the qualification of a fun feature. If it was, nothing in the game would exist because

someone

will find it unfun.

Right, so based upon your point, we should remove players who do not like certain content that others like? You are saying that you find everything fun in GW2?

Taril.8619 · July 13, 2020

@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

And others would find it fun.

Ergo, it can be considered a fun feature.

Is it fun for

EVERYONE

? No, but that's not the qualification of a fun feature. If it was, nothing in the game would exist because

someone

will find it unfun.

Right, so based upon your point, we should remove players who do not like certain content that others like? You are saying that you find everything fun in GW2?

What? Try reading.

I said remove players whom are actively crying out against certain content. Not just people whom don't like a specific piece of content.

kharmin.7683 · July 13, 2020

@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

And others would find it fun.

Ergo, it can be considered a fun feature.

Is it fun for

EVERYONE

? No, but that's not the qualification of a fun feature. If it was, nothing in the game would exist because

someone

will find it unfun.

Right, so based upon your point, we should remove players who do not like certain content that others like? You are saying that you find everything fun in GW2?

What? Try reading.Snark isn't necessary. Egad.I said remove players whom are

actively crying out against

certain content. Not just people whom don't like a specific piece of content.That would go over so well with the community.

So, you wouldn't come to the forums to post about content that you don't like?

You would forcibly remove me because I do not want DPS meters and have voiced my opinion against them?

Good luck.

Taril.8619 · July 13, 2020

@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
@kharmin.7683 said:
@Taril.8619 said:
So, we should remove killjoys that actively cry out against fun features?

Fun is a matter of perspective. I wouldn't find this to be a fun feature.

And others would find it fun.

Ergo, it can be considered a fun feature.

Is it fun for

EVERYONE

? No, but that's not the qualification of a fun feature. If it was, nothing in the game would exist because

someone

will find it unfun.

Right, so based upon your point, we should remove players who do not like certain content that others like? You are saying that you find everything fun in GW2?

What? Try reading.Snark isn't necessary. Egad.

I'm just pointing out suggestions that would help those that seem to miss a key skill required for online discussions.

@kharmin.7683 said:That would go over so well with the community.

Exactly the point I was making by twisting sorudo's asinine comment into something that would target themselves

@kharmin.7683 said:So, you wouldn't come to the forums to post about content that you don't like?

Why on Earth would I do that?

What purpose would it serve me, to just complain about some content I don't like? When I could just... Not play that content and instead play other content that I do like?

@kharmin.7683 said:You would forcibly remove me because I do not want DPS meters and have voiced my opinion against them?

If we're in the business of utilizing asinine behaviour such as removing or banning things that are deemed "Not fun" by a specific random person on the forums. Sure.

maddoctor.2738 · July 13, 2020

@"sorudo.9054" said:your lack of imagination is mind blowing, do you really know only DPS and nothing more?what about mechanics that kills a boss easier, what about challenges that makes DPS only useful when needed and nothing more?for example, a boss that weakens by taking down it's shields but you need tanks to get to the generators, DPS players would die way to easy while tanks can get trough with ease.also, the whole problem with arcDPS is that no-one can play for the fun of it, it's always way to serious without a hint of fun.if something isn't fun enough in a game it should not exist, i would ether make raids actually fun (lower difficulty) or change it so DPS isn't the main way to play raids.

Funny thing is the game has a lot of mechanics like that. It's why there is a need for healers and some form of tank in the game. Even in the Open World there are many encounters that rely on crowd control, without which, regardless of the dps provided, the encounter will fail. There are also encounters with more complex mechanics and of course the many Open World encounters that require killing of different entities within a time limit. You can see in the Octovine fight how the vast majority of players goes towards East, which is the easiest side and just a DPS check, while the more complicated West or South get much much fewer players. In the end the game relies a lot on "just DPS" because that's the brainless thing to do, if it was any different the "masses" wouldn't be able to complete the content anymore. So the more complicated mechanics are left for instances, as they should be

Cuks.8241 · July 13, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.
I think you are confusing active defense with passive. This game is full of active defense and everyone gets it in form of dodge.And I don't think there is a class out there that doesn't have some active utility defense skills. If you aren't playing in some of the top pve groups out there I don't think anyone will care and notice that you are using some defensive utility skills. On top of that there are some active defense weapon skills but I wouldn't go for a specific weapon just to get that block. It is a nice addon for some classes.

Anyway sure they could make content without focus on dps. There actually is and they are called jumping puzzles. They could make group/raid jumping puzzles, lets see how that goes.

Linken.6345 · July 14, 2020

@Lumikki.1725 said:
@"Taril.8619" said:The measurement tools required in the case of all enemies dying near instantly, would be player count measurement tools, because there'd be 0 people playing the game since it would be super boring if everything died as easily as OW trash mobs (OW content is very popular, but that's due to more interesting encounters such as Bounties, World Bosses, Meta's with bosses and events that scale with people making the trash actually tanky and dangerous)

That's just personal playing styles choises as what player want's from content. Not all players want high challenge. I don't mean that game should not have challenges, I just say that this reflects just for personal taste of content.

We literally have active defence though. Dodge rolls. Many classes also have utilities that provide defense too.
Active defence has zero impact on the focus of DPS though. Even where it's required, it's still "DPS" as the priority, you just work in the active defence where necessary.
The only things that compete with DPS are Defence and Healing which are completely disregarded by DPS players and are only relevant to Tanks/Healers.

Dodge rolling is avoiding to be hit by enemies, that isn't active defence. Active defence is where you deside to stay same place and block or reduse attacks amplitude by defence tools what you have. Example soldier raising shield, mage casting magic barrier. Now that doesn't mean you can allways do that, because like all skills they have recharge time.

At the moment the challenge in this game is nothing more that increase of enemies HP (and some damage) and player counter effect that by trying to maximize they DPS. Base combat is same from start. Without active defence you just move and dodge as avoiding been hit. This isn't bad think it self, because at least it's movement compared to "Holy Trinity" combat. But this combat still has major flaws in defencive side as been too offensive only.

All this game have is active defence, what it lacks is passive defence that other mmos gives it tanks.That passive defence make them able to stand in one place not moving much.

A chrono in this game can standstill too with sword evade, shield blocks (you get a second one of you block an attack with first) and distortion

Linken.6345 · July 14, 2020