People are AFK-Botting at Drizzlewood to get unfair map participation / event rewards - [Merged]

[AgentMoore.9453]

@"kharmin.7683" said:Your comparison is not valid in my opinion as no one is taking advantage of any exploits in GW2. They are playing within the framework of the rules as currently written.

My comparison is valid, because people are exploiting available systems.

They are using normal systems in the game in abnormal ways which, though not outside the framework of the rules, is still perceived as unfair by virtue of not being the intended use. It's why, when people exploit existing systems IRL, they are partaking in unfair advantage even though they're not strictly breaking the law. "Technically they're allowed to do it" but should they be doing it? Should they be rewarded for doing it? Should we deter that sort of behavior? How?

Those thoughts are where threads like this one come from.

You appear to be resigned to the idea that nothing will change, nothing will get better, and we should accept things as they are because (in some cases) rules aren't being broken. The opposition to deterring unintended advantage makes people wonder if you are suggesting people should take advantage of weaknesses in the game's design to skate by just under the skin of the rules. This is the way your posts often come across, and why people assume you are in defense of playing that way. You post from the position of devil's advocate, which typically means you focus on the technical details of a point instead of contributing toward the practical points of a conversation.

As a last note, the 'you' in this post can be applied to anyone with a fatalist view similar to your own. You aren't the only one who feels the way you do about things like botting and AFK farming and enforcement, and I don't mean to single you out, but this persisting idea that people ought to 'just settle' for sketchy things in a game they love can be destructive.

[Kurrilino.2706]

@AgentMoore.9453 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Your comparison is not valid in my opinion as no one is taking advantage of any exploits in GW2. They are playing within the framework of the rules as currently written.

My comparison is valid, because people

are

exploiting available systems.

They are using normal systems in the game in abnormal ways which, though not outside the framework of the rules, is still perceived as unfair by virtue of not being the intended use. It's why, when people exploit existing systems IRL, they are partaking in unfair advantage even though they're not strictly breaking the law. "Technically they're allowed to do it" but should they be doing it? Should they be rewarded for doing it? Should we deter that sort of behavior? How?

Well, this is where you are wrong. Because someone shouldn't do something doesn't make it illegal if the laws allow it.

The intend of animals and zombies is that they attack enemies. GW has been pretty clear about it. A player staring at a screen or reading a book,while his/her zombies killing enemies is irrelevant as long as no 3rd party software is involved.

I understand you don't like it but that is not changing the intended use.-Can you put 2 hot dogs in a single bun? Yes.-Should you? Maybe not.-Is it an exploit? No, because the intend is to hold hot dogs in buns.The Constitution allows us to put as many hot dogs in a bun as we want, doesn't matter how wrong it seems to some people.

[kharmin.7683]

@AgentMoore.9453 said:Thank you for the well thought and civil reply.

My comparison is valid, because people are exploiting available systems.I think that you and I have a different definition of what an exploit is.They are using normal systems in the game in abnormal ways which, though not outside the framework of the rules, is still perceived as unfair by virtue of not being the intended use.This is where I have difficulty with your side of the argument. Just because some perceive something as unfair does not make it inherently so.You appear to be resigned to the idea that nothing will change, nothing will get better, and we should accept things as they are because (in some cases) rules aren't being broken. The opposition to deterring unintended advantage makes people wonder if you are suggesting people should take advantage of weaknesses in the game's design to skate by just under the skin of the rules. This is the way your posts often come across, and why people assume you are in defense of playing that way. You post from the position of devil's advocate, which typically means you focus on the technical details of a point instead of contributing toward the practical points of a conversation.Actually, I very much hope that this situation would change. I don't care for it and have stated multiple times that I neither engage in or condone this style of play. Rather, I have vehemently been defending the game's rules. I would love for Anet to change their view and rules on this topic. Until they do so, complaining about something -- that is allowed by the rules -- is pointless. What we should be doing is advocating for Anet to change the rules, not ban the players who are legally playing.

[AgentMoore.9453]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@AgentMoore.9453 said:Thank you for the well thought and civil reply.

Cheers, it's no use talking if you can't also listen to the person you're talking to.

My comparison is valid, because people

are

exploiting available systems.I think that you and I have a different definition of what an exploit is.

Noun and verb.

An exploit is a sort of rule-breaking technique or ill-gotten advantage that is usually outlined in the rules as being Not Cool. Exploiting something means general advantage-taking, and isn't necessarily a malicious practice. For example, in Drizzlewood people quickly realized how easily they could tag events and are exploiting that with the Dolyak events. But if they were using an outside program or a bug/glitch with a specific rune set or other normal part of the game to nefariously gain advantage in Drizzlewood, those people would be using an exploit.

It's probably also important to point out here that I don't want people to be banned/disciplined for exploiting natural advantages in the game, because that's a failure of the design and not the player. The better solution is to adjust the design, which is why some posters are suggesting sniper NPCs on the supply routes and other deterrents that wouldn't interrupt someone playing as intended. Using exploits, however, is clearly not okay.

They are using normal systems in the game in abnormal ways which, though not outside the framework of the rules, is still perceived as unfair by virtue of not being the intended use.This is where I have difficulty with your side of the argument. Just because some perceive something as unfair does not make it inherently so.

That's why I say perceive. Clearly people perceive (or feel as though) situations like Dolyak tagging are unfair or otherwise worth reevaluating. Some people don't care either way, some think it's legitimate play as long as it's not rule-breaking, but they're all just perceptions so I don't expect to be able to change yours. I only want to point out that perceptions of fairness aren't always based on competition because perceptions of fairness vary depending on who you ask.

I always hope that things can improve, no matter what the issue is that people are having. The goal should be to make sure that your solution isn't worse than the problem, and the best way to find those solutions is to at least acknowledge that some players are having problems in the first place.

[Jilora.9524]

Oddly it's all revs now there. was 11 - 9 one side 2 one the other. They give you boons as I did map complete and got sucked into the whole map so I did about 8 or 9 tag the yaks. Now champs spawns and ton extra mobs because it was scaled so got extra drops but still shady 11 revs unless the give boons automatically these are def bots not like the necroes auto minion attacking ones before. I knew Khamin wanted an update so your welcome

[DaFishBob.6518]

Well revs could choose the herald elite spec which is the definition of automatic boons. They all had an orange glowy symbol beneath them right?

[Jilora.9524]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:Well revs could choose the herald elite spec which is the definition of automatic boons. They all had an orange glowy symbol beneath them right?

Think they had the dragon symbol idk about orange glowy. I know nothing about rev or playing one but if it's automatic then they found another technically not botting I guess

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Jilora.9524 said:

@DaFishBob.6518 said:Well revs could choose the herald elite spec which is the definition of automatic boons. They all had an orange glowy symbol beneath them right?

Think they had the dragon symbol idk about orange glowy. I know nothing about rev or playing one but if it's automatic then they found another technically not botting I guess

Okay maybe not orange glowy but you saw the symbol. Yeah every utility skill a herald gain pulses boons to nearby allies. And they can stay up as long as they want basically unless they try to pulse all the boons.

[Tman.6349]

Remove drops/XP/participation from the mobs that spawn for these 2 events. Give the dolyaks a proximity check (like the dolyaks in WvW) that you have to maintain for a certain amount of time, enough that you would have to walk a fair way, in order to get event credit. GG

[TrOtskY.5927]

Can we just make participation drop if you don't complete different events within a time period?

This way your participation drops if you sit outside grotto

It still works the same I'm every other way

Only allow opening of settlement chests when participation is a thing

People saying there is no unfairness or whatever.....these afk players are filling shards and stopping active players from joining who would contribute to the event. A huge majority of the rewards are from the end meta of killing cache keepers and getting supply cache chests

Honestly if you don't play this map and haven't experienced the frustration of the map bleeding out at leadfoot or lighthouse then take your philosophical ramblings elsewhere. It's so triggering reading these high and mighty posts that don't even talk about the issue and go into the ethics of the system or whatever....just go for a walk or something cos you are clearly bored beyond measure.

Meanwhile us people actually playing the game are genuinely frustrated by this obvious abuse of a map meta

Come on Anet, we need a solution.

[RoboPlunger.7654]

The amount of people AFK farming Drizzlewood coast is getting out of hand. There are constantly a significant amount of people AFKing and taking up spots in the map. I even had someone that was tagged up doing the AFK farm. I know its technically not against the rules since they aren't botting, but it is seriously frustrating to commanders and other players in the map actually playing the game. It's frustrating that people can farm a decent amount of gold with no effort, while others are actually progressing the meta. I feel like there needs to be a smack down on it or a patch that prevents them from getting rewards. Its kind of killing my motivation to do the map, which is otherwise great.

[GutterRat.1269]

If the AFK lootbotting is against the TOS then there is no need for all these elaborate additions of mechanics, NPCs, or map changes; Anet GMs, if they still exist, just need to do their jobs and react to reports. But I guess that's already where the wheels come off.

[SexyMofo.8923]

I love this map. I haven’t played on any map this long. Please make more maps like these. The escort events make the world feel dynamic and the game design for this is awesome. Keep up the good work. I just wish the map wouldn’t reset so I can just keep my participation at 200% and continue to get loot.

[kharmin.7683]

@msalakka.4653 said:Anet GMs, if they still exist, just need to do their jobs and react to reports. But I guess that's already where the wheels come off.This assumes that they aren't. Perhaps they are engaging with the players who have been reported, and the players reply to them. That is not against the ToS as it is currently written.

We simply cannot know because they never publicly divulge actions that they take.

[TrOtskY.5927]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@msalakka.4653 said:Anet GMs, if they still exist, just need to do their jobs and react to reports. But I guess that's already where the wheels come off.This assumes that they aren't. Perhaps they are engaging with the players who have been reported, and the players reply to them. That is not against the ToS as it is currently written.

We simply cannot know because they never publicly divulge actions that they take.

True, but clearly if that is the case, then their methods are ineffective. There are still many players doing this right at this very moment, a week after the OP

[kharmin.7683]

@TrOtskY.5927 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@msalakka.4653 said:Anet GMs, if they still exist, just need to do their jobs and react to reports. But I guess that's already where the wheels come off.This assumes that they aren't. Perhaps they are engaging with the players who have been reported, and the players reply to them. That is not against the ToS as it is currently written.

We simply cannot know because they never publicly divulge actions that they take.

True, but clearly if that is the case, then their methods are ineffective. There are still many players doing this right at this very moment, a week after the OP

Which methods? If a GM whispers to the reported player and that player responds then they are not breaking the rules. There is nothing ineffective about that.

Now, in my opinion, it's the rules that need to be changed that allow for this method of play. That's the discussion that we ought to be having.

[TrOtskY.5927]

The whispering method you mentioned? Or whatever other method you can think of? It doesn't matter what method they are using, and since you are the one proposing that Anet may be silently addressing the situation, perhaps you can tell me?

None of this changes the fact that this is still a large issue on the map and that I see it every single time I play the map.

We were already discussing what changes could be made to the map and the meta before you made your suggestion, did you even read the thread?

@kharmin.7683 said:

@TrOtskY.5927 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:

@msalakka.4653 said:Anet GMs, if they still exist, just need to do their jobs and react to reports. But I guess that's already where the wheels come off.This assumes that they aren't. Perhaps they are engaging with the players who have been reported, and the players reply to them. That is not against the ToS as it is currently written.

We simply cannot know because they never publicly divulge actions that they take.

True, but clearly if that is the case, then their methods are ineffective. There are still many players doing this right at this very moment, a week after the OP

Which methods? If a GM whispers to the reported player and that player responds then they are not breaking the rules. There is nothing ineffective about that.

Now, in my opinion, it's the rules that need to be changed that allow for this method of play. That's the discussion that we ought to be having.

[kharmin.7683]

@TrOtskY.5927 said:The whispering method you mentioned? Or whatever other method you can think of? It doesn't matter what method they are using, and since you are the one proposing that Anet may be silently addressing the situation, perhaps you can tell me?I am merely saying that the players appear to be playing by the rules as currently written if they are reported and yet remain. Anet never divulges actions taken, so we can either assume that they are investigating reports or ignoring them. I choose the former; everyone else assumes the latter.None of this changes the fact that this is still a large issue on the map and that I see it every single time I play the map.I wholeheartedly agree!

We were already discussing what changes could be made to the map and the meta before you made your suggestion, did you even read the thread?Yes, I've read the thread and my point is why make changes to the map and meta when making a rules change about AFK players would actually solve the problem without loads of development time/resources. We should be advocating for a change which will actually resolve things. Making map changes will just move these AFK players to other areas. Changing the rules to disallow AFK playing would actually solve it. The problem for Anet is how to determine a player is actually AFK. Currently, if a player does not respond to a GM, then Anet can safely assume that player is AFK.

[kharmin.7683]

@TrOtskY.5927 said:SNIPThank you for that response. I appreciate it. It made me feel that finally someone understands what I've been trying to say over multiple threads on the AFK topic.

I completely understand the frustration that you and others have with regards to these AFK players and agree that it is a problem for the health of the game. Unfortunately, these players do not appear to be violating any ToS or rules, so there is little that Anet will do about them at this point.

It is a shame that we are in this position really.Indeed, it is.

[kratan.4619]

Since nobody else will admit to doing this, I do this all the time, I have for years at varying spots. They make a change, see Lake Doric, I just move to a different spot. O am usually watching movies etc while I sit somewhere casting a spell every few minutes to gather something I need. I don't care if it makes others upset and will continue to play as I like until Anet says it is no longer acceptable, which as of this time I am breaking no rules. At least these threads give me the information needed to know where the "cool" spots are to try out.

[Super Hayes.6890]

@"kratan.4619" said:Since nobody else will admit to doing this, I do this all the time, I have for years at varying spots. They make a change, see Lake Doric, I just move to a different spot. O am usually watching movies etc while I sit somewhere casting a spell every few minutes to gather something I need. I don't care if it makes others upset and will continue to play as I like until Anet says it is no longer acceptable, which as of this time I am breaking no rules. At least these threads give me the information needed to know where the "cool" spots are to try out.

You aren't wrong. I was running supply caravans last night on this map actively with a warrior and I really appreciated the afk necros that were there because their minions made it possible for me to survive when all the other players moved on in the meta. I needed to refill my war supplies and this was a fast way to do it. The caravans stopped running entirely when the final battle began so I joined the final battle. I have yet to land on a map that these afk players cause to fail especially since they have incentive to leave when the caravans stop running during the main event. I seriously am not seeing this "terrible" issue that some of you are bent out of shape over. In fact, I am convinced this isn't an issue at all for this map. Let them afk, it isn't hurting the meta progression or blocking anyone from rewards or participation.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Players can go and scale up the mobs so that they cannot be killed passively by minions.

Anet can make it so that applying boons, without actually participating in an event, doesn’t give event credit. That’ll take care of the heralds.

Players can also collectively agree to not complete the escort and let it fail at the second ambush.

[Josiah.2967]

I generally avoid this map after I received the mastery points... I went back to help a friend get his mastery points. It was tight meta and a yelling match in squad chat at the end. We literally had about 20-30 people afk farming at the beginning. Meanwhile, the game scales and is harder for everyone else. It was frustrating.

The only people who hear about the complaints are the ones trying. The participation in my mind should require completion in multiple areas to progress.

Note: I do not report people, because I would hate to report the one person that had an emergency and I just made their already terrible day worse.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Players can go and scale up the mobs so that they cannot be killed passively by minions.

Anet can make it so that applying boons, without actually participating in an event, doesn’t give event credit. That’ll take care of the heralds.

Players can also collectively agree to not complete the escort and let it fail at the second ambush.

Players cannot even agree on letting a temple-event fail in Orr, to trigger a certain boss spawn. Grothmar Valley Party-Guardian, champions get killed without announcing and if announced, it may be dead when you arrive there. Octovine, Dragonfall and Serpent's Ire and all the other "we have to work together"-fails. Not to mention the saboteur-players of Tripple-Trouble.

I thought about the issue once again and took a look on the market. Gem purchases, gem to gold exchange and vice versa. The curves are going into the wrong direction - from ANet's perspective. The trend started with the launch of No Quarter. They may watch this madness a little longer. But once their income suffers too much, they will react. I doubt they would risk the anniversary sales. The easiest scenario may be the Lake Doric solution. Adding some mysterious catapults/cannons/airships out of reach which keep bombing the area constantly. In addition, they may add a daily loot system, as they did with Istan. Especially the 2nd option may harm the active players more than the afk-ers, which is an absolutely normal phenomenon when you look back at other LW maps which were used for excessive farming (e. g. Karmic Retribution). My guess, Jormag Rising = map balancing. I will try to get the most annoying achievements done before that patch and hope for the best.

[kharmin.7683]

@Josiah.2967 said:I also do not report people, because I would hate to report the one person that had an emergency and I just made their day worse.That shouldn't be your concern. If you have a valid reason to report a suspected bot or AFK player, then report them and move on. Let Anet handle it.