Now they really should give the necro at least one block and or stealth

[Sobx.1758]

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Honestly ESO has smaller expansions than guild wars 2 does, but their expansions also add new toys outside of specs to play with so I Guess that might even out. Honestly be hesitantly optimistic and hope they've learned, but its likely we will get another PoF (Which in my opinion was the worst of the two expansions.)

What do you mean by "new toys" in eso that somehow "might even out" the expansions?

[Obtena.7952]

@Dadnir.5038 said:@Ghos.1326Truly, the greatest enemy to improvement is ignorance. I hope your desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

The devs ignoring the fact that the necromancer rely on tools that are very effective in PvP/WvW yet nigh useless in PvE is the reason behind the restlessness of the GW2 necromancer's community and answers like yours. The necromancer is tied to tools that are dangerously strong in PvP/WvW and hopelessly weak in PvE, this is the crux of the matter. People want block because it's a nice answer to prevent a heavy hit as well incoming hard CC (yes things that necromancer is weak against). People want stealth because in GW2 it's a busted mechanism with no drawback.

In otherwords ... people think busted mechanisms and broken tools are going to fix what's wrong with necro ... well, we know that's a double edged sword already. If we DID get either of these two things which is unlikely, that wouldn't make the class much better and we all know it. Also, it would let Anet wash their hands of the REAL issues that exist. No thanks.

Ignorant or not, people need to start focusing on providing solutions that are 1) sensible and 2) inline with the theme of the class they are trying to buff. Stealth and blocks are neither of those things on necro and it would be nice if the people who are more aware step up and a recognize these ridiculous ideas from absentee/returning players when they see them. We already know the direction Anet is going to take when it comes to sustain on necro and it's current especs ... so if we want solutions, THOSE are the things we must focus on.

[silent killer.5732]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:@Ghos.1326Truly, the greatest enemy to improvement is ignorance. I hope your desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

The devs ignoring the fact that the necromancer rely on tools that are very effective in PvP/WvW yet nigh useless in PvE is the reason behind the restlessness of the GW2 necromancer's community and answers like yours. The necromancer is tied to tools that are dangerously strong in PvP/WvW and hopelessly weak in PvE, this is the crux of the matter. People want block because it's a nice answer to prevent a heavy hit as well incoming hard CC (yes things that necromancer is weak against). People want stealth because in GW2 it's a busted mechanism with no drawback.

In otherwords ... people think busted mechanisms and broken tools are going to fix what's wrong with necro ... well, we know that's a double edged sword already. If we DID get either of these two things which is unlikely, that wouldn't make the class much better and we all know it. Also, it would let Anet wash their hands of the REAL issues that exist. No thanks.

Ignorant or not, people need to start focusing on providing solutions that are 1) sensible and 2) inline with the theme of the class they are trying to buff. Stealth and blocks are neither of those things on necro and it would be nice if the people who are more aware step up and a recognize these ridiculous ideas from absentee/returning players when they see them. We already know the direction Anet is going to take when it comes to sustain on necro and it's current especs ... so if we want solutions, THOSE are the things we must focus on.

Im saying if they intend to keep nerfing left and right they can work on the necro from scratch in exchange of blocks or stealths because in my opinion these are more powerful and useful than our shroud anyways. Anet and the rest of the community sees the shroud is op no matter what they did to it. We can’t even master our class because of the constant nerfing we got and this has to stop at some point.The solution is either they look at the necro skill by skill or deleting it at once.

Dude I returned recently to find out the reaper deal crazy damage in shroud and axe 2. People started to get crazy all over again crying about the massive damage that came from two to three bottoms.

In other words once they decided to “fix the Range bug that allows the reaper to hit targets that outside of its range “ necro will ne piece of hot garbage again.

That’s why my solution was to rework it while giving us that one hell of broken mechanism in blocks or stealth

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Ghos.1326" said:Sorry, not corruption. I'm thinking of condition transfer.

I think your mind stayed in a a period where the necromancer's skill epidemic wasn't nerfed. First off epidemic only start to be popular with PoF and the other professions quickly called for nerfs that ANet granted. The truth is that since HoT the necromancer had 2 period where it shined and they never last long before being nerfed to oblivion: The lich's minions era (Put out by simply removing the mark that summoned the minions and making sure that the trait summoning the same minions, death nova, could not lead to anything) and the epidemic era (put out by simply halving the duration of all condition tranfered with each transfert. The skill was only strong because you could bounce the conditions in a coordinate manner on an occasional add mobs). As for scourge it's not "meta", it's useful for training purpose but a far cry from being "meta".

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Honestly ESO has smaller expansions than guild wars 2 does, but their expansions also add new toys outside of specs to play with so I Guess that might even out. Honestly be hesitantly optimistic and hope they've learned, but its likely we will get another PoF (Which in my opinion was the worst of the two expansions.)

What do you mean by "new toys" in eso that somehow "might even out" the expansions?

Well for starters, the only expansion of worth in my eyes (as an expansion) is HoT.. PoF just added mounts and some really gimmicky E-specs that hurt the game more than they helped. Outside of that they added nothing, However ESO added new skill-lines, classes and even proc sets with more end-game content than anything so Id wager that while Guild wars has the edge on polish when it comes to their gameplay, ESO has variety and as well is more or less willing to take risks in what stuff they add. There is even rumors of a third class coming... meanwhile Guild wars 2 likely will add four maps, E-specs (That are there to push the sale) and some masteries that will just do more of the same old.

Note I dont like ESO really, its too PvE for me and their WvW and PvP are eh at best. But Im just making a comparison because people really don't understand how "final" this expansion can be for guild wars if it flops. Over the last year things don't seem to be entirly perfect in "paradise" as it were.

[Virdo.1540]

blocks and stealth for the already toughest class in the game? Lul

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Obtena.7952" said:In otherwords ... people think busted mechanisms and broken tools are going to fix what's wrong with necro ... well, we know that's a double edged sword already. If we DID get either of these two things which is unlikely, that wouldn't make the class much better and we all know it. Also, it would let Anet wash their hands of the REAL issues that exist. No thanks.

Well, I do agree with you here.

Ignorant or not, people need to start focusing on providing solutions that are 1) sensible and 2) inline with the theme of the class they are trying to buff. Stealth and blocks are neither of those things on necro and it would be nice if the people who are more aware step up and a recognize these ridiculous ideas from absentee/returning players when they see them. We already know the direction Anet is going to take when it comes to sustain on necro and it's current especs ... so if we want solutions, THOSE are the things we must focus on.

I think you didn't read Ghos signature that I was quoting.

However, like I said as an answer to kodama prior to that, the necromancer have in him the potential to emulate "blocks" through transfering damage and effects to it's minions. Those mechanism ain't foreign to the game since the necromancer already is able to tranfert conditions to it's minions (DM's necromantic corruption) and transfert a part of it's incoming damage to them (Reaper's _"Rise!") while the ranger have a way to transfert hard CC to it's pet (WS's shared anguish) and "Protect me!" historically transfered all incoming damage onto it's pet. Even mesmer and it's phantasmal defender made use of such mechanism.

It's not really hard to imagine a necromancer's e-spec making use of this concept of transfering incoming effects and damage onto minions. You just have to give an in built minion generation to the necromancer (via it's special mechanism) and make use of either commands, glyphs as utilities or even have the transferts in built within the special mechanism.

• [utility X]: For 6 seconds incoming CCs are transfered to your minions. (This effect have a 10 seconds CD per minion) 60 second CD.
• [utility Y]: For 3 seconds all incoming damage are transfered to your minions. 60 seconds CD.

Look, it's hardly out of theme or not "sensible". [utility X] is basically a weaker armor of earth while [utility Y] is an artificial shroud with a very short uptime.

[Sobx.1758]

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Honestly ESO has smaller expansions than guild wars 2 does, but their expansions also add new toys outside of specs to play with so I Guess that might even out. Honestly be hesitantly optimistic and hope they've learned, but its likely we will get another PoF (Which in my opinion was the worst of the two expansions.)

What do you mean by "new toys" in eso that somehow "might even out" the expansions?

Well for starters, the only expansion of worth in my eyes (as an expansion) is HoT.. PoF just added mounts and some really gimmicky E-specs that hurt the game more than they helped. Outside of that they added nothing, However ESO added new skill-lines, classes and even proc sets with more end-game content than anything so Id wager that while Guild wars has the edge on polish when it comes to their gameplay,

Wait what? Isn't it weird how you apparently count gw2 as "mainly especs and nothing else" probably to downplay (for unknow reasons) the amount of content they added, but when asked about "what else eso added", you start your answer with "ESO added new skill-lines" (technically that's literally part of especs, right)?

-new skill-lines [part of especs]-classes [HoT added a class, each expansion added 9 especs]-proc sets [...basically gw2's runes and sigils, or what's the huge difference?]-endgame content [suggesting gw2 expansions along with raids and episodes aren't endgame content? I don't understand, explain why]

So... seriously now, what does eso add OVER gw2 expansions, because what you've just said isn't anything that's not in gw2 expansions? Maybe you just look at the pretty-much-the-same thing implemented slightly differently or with different visuals and that makes you think it's some brand new content, but in reality it seems to me all you've listed is nothing more than what pof/hot added as well.

ESO has variety and as well is more or less willing to take risks in what stuff they add.

What variety?What risks?

[Obtena.7952]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:In otherwords ... people think busted mechanisms and broken tools are going to fix what's wrong with necro ... well, we know that's a double edged sword already. If we DID get either of these two things which is unlikely, that wouldn't make the class much better and we all know it. Also, it would let Anet wash their hands of the REAL issues that exist. No thanks.

Well, I do agree with you here.

Ignorant or not, people need to start focusing on providing solutions that are 1) sensible and 2) inline with the theme of the class they are trying to buff. Stealth and blocks are neither of those things on necro and it would be nice if the people who are more aware step up and a recognize these ridiculous ideas from absentee/returning players when they see them. We already know the direction Anet is going to take when it comes to sustain on necro and it's current especs ... so if we want solutions, THOSE are the things we must focus on.

I think you didn't read Ghos signature that I was quoting.

However, like I said as an answer to kodama prior to that, the necromancer have in him the potential to emulate "blocks" through transfering damage and effects to it's minions. Those mechanism ain't foreign to the game since the necromancer already is able to tranfert conditions to it's minions (DM's

necromantic corruption

) and transfert a part of it's incoming damage to them (Reaper's _"Rise!") while the ranger have a way to transfert hard CC to it's pet (WS's

shared anguish

) and

"Protect me!"

historically transfered all incoming damage onto it's pet. Even mesmer and it's

phantasmal defender

made use of such mechanism.

It's not really hard to imagine a necromancer's e-spec making use of this concept of transfering incoming effects and damage onto minions. You just have to give an in built minion generation to the necromancer (via it's special mechanism) and make use of either

commands

,

glyphs

as utilities or even have the transferts in built within the special mechanism.

• [utility X]: For 6 seconds incoming CCs are transfered to your minions.
  (This effect have a 10 seconds CD per minion)
  60 second CD.
• [utility Y]: For 3 seconds all incoming damage are transfered to your minions. 60 seconds CD.

Look, it's hardly out of theme or not "sensible". [utility X] is basically a weaker

armor of earth

while [utility Y] is an artificial

shroud

with a very short uptime.

Fair enough .. in that case let's not call them blocks because that already has a very specific mechanic in this game.

[ZDragon.3046]

I think making something similar to the new mount stealth skill would be ok.IT makes you a shadowy dark cloud thats not technically totally invisible.But lets say if it hid your health bar and name and prevented you from being clicked on or tab targeted for its duration but still left you open to vulnerable aoe skills that might actually be good enough for a lesser type of stealth for something like the necromancer.

Basically it would act as a target break and target denial which would have some defensive capability against certain weapon kits but it would be a far cry from something like thief stealth as you could just follow the cloud of darkness with your eyes to know where the person is moving etc.

Ive been saying it for a while now this game needs 2 versions of stealth.The true version which is basically what everyone can get currently and a lesser version which is more or less just target breaking and obscuring effect.

I think a true stealth on necromancer would probably be a bit too annoying for most people to deal with and they would complain about it till it was nerfed into being unusable anyways. That said if anet continues to make elites without the shroud mechanic there needs to be other meichanical skills that make up for not having that shroud. Thats why we saw scourge vanish from compeitive for well over a year because they robbed it of way too much while everyone else still had way too much.

If core cant have abilities like true stealth, evades, blocks, etc. then elite specs without the shroud mechanic which makes up for the lack of those tools should not even be considered without giving them those tools within the traits, weapon skills, and utilities of the elite.

[Anchoku.8142]

Blocks and stealth come up on the Necro wish list all the time but I would really like retaliation back and more finishers.

The shroud mechanic is sufficient for blocks, although a new specialization can forego shroud in favor of immunity skills like other professions have. Mixing shroud and blocks will probably result in some OP corner-conditions leading to balance headaches.

Stealth is a tricky effect to balance, too. Originally supposed to get a glassy profession close to a target for a damage burst or escape, Necro has piles of conditions and shroud designed to absorb damage and inflict DoT that stealth cannot protect from or avoid. The only real reason Necromancers used to ask for it is because skipping dungeon content is a mandatory skill.

More finishers available to core Necro would help with stealth and boon generation as well as increasing dps slightly when in a group and make playing Necro more interesting.

I also miss having retaliation on Unholy Feast. Necro has plenty of lame off-hand weapons that could benefit from it.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Galmac.4680 said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

[ZDragon.3046]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Galmac.4680 said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

Except its not though its no where near close enough to the raw defense that shroud generally offers on any given build and if that were the case we would see possibly other profession who dont use barrier as much. Because then i have to ask why those professions have barrier along side evades, blocks, etc while the necromancer still is not allowed to have such things.

Other professions that have stealth certainly do have condi uptime and boon rip to say they dont is falseBoth the Mesmer and Theif have stealth access and both have access to boon rips and condi up time thats more than good enough to be viable and thats only two examples ill put to keep things short.

So yes when you remove the second health bar (if you can really call it that because its also a resource) and try to count barrier counts as shroud we then have to ask why other professions have access to barrier while keeping their other defensive tools. Barrier is by far not equal to shrouds. The barrier is not equal to shroud and the cost of giving up shroud is still generally not worth what you get in exchange the only time its decently worth it is in wvw where more aoe is king and in pve where scourge still has decent condi damage output (which is still heavily overshadowed by other options in many situations)

Lets also not forget how minor boon rip is in open world as the majority of open world content still has no major need for a ton of boon rip. 95% of the content = boonless foes.

[Arheundel.6451]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Galmac.4680 said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

Except its not though its no where near close enough to the raw defense that shroud generally offers on any given build and if that were the case we would see possibly other profession who dont use barrier as much. Because then i have to ask why those professions have barrier along side evades, blocks, etc while the necromancer still is not allowed to have such things.

Other professions that have stealth certainly do have condi uptime and boon rip to say they dont is falseBoth the Mesmer and Theif have stealth access and both have access to boon rips and condi up time thats more than good enough to be viable and thats only two examples ill put to keep things short.

So yes when you remove the second health bar (if you can really call it that because its also a resource) and try to count barrier counts as shroud we then have to ask why other professions have access to barrier while keeping their other defensive tools. Barrier is by far not equal to shrouds. The barrier is not equal to shroud and the cost of giving up shroud is still generally not worth what you get in exchange the only time its decently worth it is in wvw where more aoe is king and in pve where scourge still has decent condi damage output (which is still heavily overshadowed by other options in many situations)

Lets also not forget how minor boon rip is in open world as the majority of open world content still has no major need for a ton of boon rip. 95% of the content = boonless foes.

Strange..because the professions with access with evades, barrier or stealth are not as numerous as necro in the competitive environment ...where does signet core necro exactly sit in all this? The last thing necros needs is something even more tanky than that

[ZDragon.3046]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Galmac.4680" said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

Except its not though its no where near close enough to the raw defense that shroud generally offers on any given build and if that were the case we would see possibly other profession who dont use barrier as much. Because then i have to ask why those professions have barrier along side evades, blocks, etc while the necromancer still is not allowed to have such things.

Other professions that have stealth certainly do have condi uptime and boon rip to say they dont is falseBoth the Mesmer and Theif have stealth access and both have access to boon rips and condi up time thats more than good enough to be viable and thats only two examples ill put to keep things short.

So yes when you remove the second health bar (if you can really call it that because its also a resource) and try to count barrier counts as shroud we then have to ask why other professions have access to barrier while keeping their other defensive tools. Barrier is by far not equal to shrouds. The barrier is not equal to shroud and the cost of giving up shroud is still generally not worth what you get in exchange the only time its decently worth it is in wvw where more aoe is king and in pve where scourge still has decent condi damage output (which is still heavily overshadowed by other options in many situations)

Lets also not forget how minor boon rip is in open world as the majority of open world content still has no major need for a ton of boon rip. 95% of the content = boonless foes.

Strange..because the professions with access with evades, barrier or stealth are not as numerous as necro in the competitive environment ...where does

signet core necro

exactly sit in all this? The last thing necros needs is something even more tanky than that

Signet core necro? Is this a joke?How did you go from saying barrier = shroud to... where does core signet necro (something thats been nerfed numinous times now) fit into all thisSignets were nerfed and im not just talking about the recent hit to locustVamp was hit with QoL change that made it weaker much much weaker than what it use to be. The trait for signets moved to a lower spot on the trait line and in doing so the trait was made weaker. The passives are no longer improved at all times anymore.Signet of undeath has been nerfed several times now and even took a nerf again with the signet trait changeSignet of spite is litterally a joke in competitive modes.Plague signet is the only signet that actually passively gets worse for the necromancer when trait enhanced.Anet even went as far as to remove tanker amulets from the game all together yet its still to tanky but it cant have other types of tools.

Core signet necro is not what it use to be 3-4 months ago when the game wide nerfs ran through competitive modes.

Even if you assumed that core signet scourge as a full built tank was still obnoxiously hard to kill do you really think it would have room to take a different trait that would allow it to keep all the current tools it had to comprise for something like blocks or stealth. It would more than likely have to give up something to take such a trait or even skill. if its a skill that means droppings signets to take that skill or utility if its a trait then that means dropping key traits you will most certainly need from specific lines like death or spite possibly even blood magic to make it work.

It still blows my mind how people can complain about how unnaturally tanky necros are but when you opt to make them less tanky its an immidate "no" to any other type of defensive tool or mechanic. Necros are bad because tank but necro also cant not be tank and have other types of defensive mechanics. Its a infinite loop thats frustrating to hear from people.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:Honestly ESO has smaller expansions than guild wars 2 does, but their expansions also add new toys outside of specs to play with so I Guess that might even out. Honestly be hesitantly optimistic and hope they've learned, but its likely we will get another PoF (Which in my opinion was the worst of the two expansions.)

What do you mean by "new toys" in eso that somehow "might even out" the expansions?

Well for starters, the only expansion of worth in my eyes (as an expansion) is HoT.. PoF just added mounts and some really gimmicky E-specs that hurt the game more than they helped. Outside of that they added nothing, However ESO added new skill-lines, classes and even proc sets with more end-game content than anything so Id wager that while Guild wars has the edge on polish when it comes to their gameplay,

Wait what? Isn't it weird how you apparently count gw2 as "mainly especs and nothing else" probably to downplay (for unknow reasons) the amount of content they added, but when asked about "what else eso added", you start your answer with "ESO added new skill-lines" (technically that's literally part of especs, right)?

-new skill-lines [part of especs]-classes [HoT added a class, each expansion added 9 especs]-proc sets [...basically gw2's runes and sigils, or what's the huge difference?]-endgame content [suggesting gw2 expansions along with raids and episodes aren't endgame content? I don't understand, explain why]

So... seriously now, what does eso add OVER gw2 expansions, because what you've just said isn't anything that's not in gw2 expansions? Maybe you just look at the pretty-much-the-same thing implemented slightly differently or with different visuals and that makes you think it's some brand new content, but in reality it seems to me all you've listed is nothing more than what pof/hot added as well.

ESO has variety and as well is more or less willing to take risks in what stuff they add.

What variety?What risks?

Considering they actually attempt balance more regularly, with a much more intricate system (Gear adds passives, skill lines have passives, skills have two morphs each, there are sub-classes such as werewolf ontop of a dodge, parry and even black system.) They do better than A-net does at balance, I mean granted thats not saying much as neither game is nearly close to ideal balance. Their zones are much more involved, they add actual dungeons and end-game content outside of just pitching new game modes of which will be abandoned once their life-span has expired. (Raids are dead, strikes are taking their place. A-net came out to talk about how fractals are continuing and even have one coming up, where as raids its been radio silence.) And Eso also adds PvP stuff into the game regularly with even more stuff being pitched that way DESPITE it being even more niche than the pvp in guild wars.

Adding new classes are a risk, skill lines and E-specs are more of a safe line because neither of which are required. Neither of which are as big of a balance bomb-shell as a new class and both can easily be looked at and nerfed should it be required. Both the warden and the necromancer were huge risks for ESO as they both shook balance to their core (Still doing so) but not in a negative way, they merely opened up many more doors. Guild wars 2 is not even well known in the sphere of mmo's as it is, all of the people I've brought to the game NEVER KNEW it existed prior. (Thats up for debate whether or not its bad marketing, and the lack of "telephone" that goes on with how the game is doing.) I recently brought people to the game who knew about ESO, Final fantasy and WoW but had no clue guild wars existed until a few days ago when I drug them into the game to show them it is indeed an alternative.

Guild wars 2 has a beautiful combat system, one of the best I've played honestly. But it is still bare bones and there is nothing special about the game right now as it stands in the way of the "class fantasy". There are classes who are well equiped and those who aren't, there are classes who cant compete with moderate effort and classes who require much more work (Not due to high skill ceiling I might add) and get a portion of the results those who are better equipped get. This barrier to entry for many players, and even for some vets is completely removed in ESO due to being able to completely customize your character to fit whatever niche you want them too. Everything can tank, heal ,dps or even bring utility and everything has access to the same tools as everyone else albeit in different forms. They've been quick to hand out nerfs where needed, as well buffs and are much more transparent with their community. To top that off they don't rely on platforming, mount skins, Black lion chests and a botched attempt at templates to bring in money. They earn it with their content and the money from what i've heard and the bit I've seen is well earned.

That being said I don't like ESO. The reasons being are as follows

• The expansion you buy, is your ticket in. Each piece of the dlc subsequently costs you more money (Dungeons, raids sold outside of the expansion itself) outside of the basic two they give at launch.
• Player housing is a money milker, its legit horrid how much those cost.
• They have ACTUAL loot crates, not black lion chests but hard 100% loot boxes
• Their combat is similar, but slower than guild wars 2 which has only been compounded as they recently tried to slow down combat and the "time to kill".
• None of the classes really grab me, nothing to my taste so I really just made a necromancer so I could werewolf. (Werewolf in my opinion being the only hook they have for me.)
• Their lore is more consistent and the story is better handled, typically characters are not handled in ham-fisted ways.

Guild wars 2 does a lot of things right the issue is ESO has evolved and Guild wars 2 really hasn't. I love proc sets that give you special passives for earning that gear, something I Feel guild wars could bennefit from. I also like how content actually feels rewarding, lets face it most of us don't want to deal with the community/other players and most of us really couldn't be bothered about "The experience of this content type" we either like it or we dont. Raiding? Its not universally liked, the only reason most players do it is strictly for the gear and prestige which doesn't exist here. I mean sure Legendary armor exists, but it can be gotten elsewhere and the raid variant is probably the ugliest of the bunch. MOST of the lucrative and interactive rewards come form Acheivo hunting... and that is why most people simply do the living world. WvW has its own perks true but it still lacks a solid reward system, as does PvP. When you get to the end game, and have ascended/legendary it becomes a "Why" and "what is my goal" and thats usually when people dip out. In eso it becomes "Where next" because of how they handle content such as adding personalities, customization and cosmetics to add ontop of the gear sets you may want for a new build that brings people back. Something I hope A-net learns to adopt in Cantha.

[jpsssss.7530]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Galmac.4680 said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

You're kitten high man. Barrier lasts 5 seconds. Its nowhere near as good as a proper shroud. As core necro, i can sit in shroud in pvp for a very long time. Barrier is a joke of a mechanic because it times out. Oh the enemy had like 12k barrier? Wait 5 seconds and its gone...

[KrHome.1920]

@Virdo.1540 said:blocks and stealth for the already toughest class in the game? LulThe whole purpose of this thread is the idea of an elite spec with drawbacks, that won't result in blocks and stealth being overpowered.

It's a no-brainer that this elite spec could not have a form of shroud like core or reaper.

It could use a shroud that consumes life force for skill usages - basically a mix of core/reaper shroud and scourge. This would lower the utility of shroud to such an extent that additional blocks would not break the spec. The blocks could even consume life force. Or a shroud skill could grant stealth but stealth would consume 25% of life force per second while it is active for a maximum uptime of 4 seconds and you lose all your life force if you keep it up that long.

But this discussion is pointless, since anet prefers to maintain class themes at any cost.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Probably better to put a block or some stealth on next elite spec, other specs are not designed with that in mind

[WhiteDeath.8067]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Galmac.4680 said:You mean scourges, who don't really have a shroud?

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

Except its not though its no where near close enough to the raw defense that shroud generally offers on any given build and if that were the case we would see possibly other profession who dont use barrier as much. Because then i have to ask why those professions have barrier along side evades, blocks, etc while the necromancer still is not allowed to have such things.

Other professions that have stealth certainly do have condi uptime and boon rip to say they dont is falseBoth the Mesmer and Theif have stealth access and both have access to boon rips and condi up time thats more than good enough to be viable and thats only two examples ill put to keep things short.

So yes when you remove the second health bar (if you can really call it that because its also a resource) and try to count barrier counts as shroud we then have to ask why other professions have access to barrier while keeping their other defensive tools. Barrier is by far not equal to shrouds. The barrier is not equal to shroud and the cost of giving up shroud is still generally not worth what you get in exchange the only time its decently worth it is in wvw where more aoe is king and in pve where scourge still has decent condi damage output (which is still heavily overshadowed by other options in many situations)

Lets also not forget how minor boon rip is in open world as the majority of open world content still has no major need for a ton of boon rip. 95% of the content = boonless foes.

Strange..because the professions with access with evades, barrier or stealth are not as numerous as necro in the competitive environment ...where does

signet core necro

exactly sit in all this? The last thing necros needs is something even more tanky than that

Lol comp environment, have u seen any rank 55 or team USA fights at all? The only viable spec for top tournie play necro is blood magic power reaper from boycerino, meanwhile sind and toker spams daredevil or core thief since launch of HoT (stealth and evades). The only barrier gameplay is from scrapper barriers from r55 bruv because NA doesn't even run scrapper. The only core necro is really only nos b/c he plays condi and even then ppl like boyce destroys him now. Honestly, teams have gotten up to grand finals w/o a reaper (see french worms).

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Arheundel.6451" said:In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroud, additional health..whatever semantic diatribe you wanna use. Professions getting stealth/block don't have access to additional health bar or condi uptime/boon rip etc etc etc

Then both elementalist/weaver and scrapper have a "shroud" because they can spam barrier (and they do that alongside invulns and blocks, scrapper even have access to barrier). Every player with sanctuary rune and sufficient self healing output can also have a "shroud". Yet you don't see that much elementalists focusing on barrier and scrappers don't seem to break balance despite their access to barrier, block, invuln and stealth. In "numbers", the scourge don't output more barrier than the other 2, it can grant himself more in a single instance but less often than both elementalist/weaver and scrapper.

[KrHome.1920]

In the real world...barrier spam counts as shroudWhen clueless people try to talk about balance...

Certain elementalist and engineer builds have close to broken barrier access.

And what a nice coincidence that they are proof that evades, teleports, excessive field blasting, stealth, leaps, invulnerabiliteis and blocks can coexist with barrier without any problem.

[Dadnir.5038]

After crunching numbers, I'm slightly going back on my previous comment.In an ideal world without healing power (or runes), the scourge can hope to reach 60k barrier per minute (It's realistically impossible, but that's roughly it's potential).In this same ideal world, the weaver can hope to reach 40k barrier per minute, yet also have access to blocks, evade skills and invuln frames. (like scourge it's realistically impossible number)Realistic numbers put weaver at 30k and scourge at 50K.

So it's my mistake, the scourge indeed do output more barrier than weaver. That said, to see that the various extra blocks, evade skills and invuln frames account for merely 20k incoming damage mitigated is a bit disheartening.

NB.: These numbers are for PvP setting and don't take into account that the weaver have superior toughness potential and damage reduction potential, let's just say that the 8k extra base health of the necromancer compensate for that.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Dadnir.5038 said:After crunching numbers, I'm slightly going back on my previous comment.In an ideal world without healing power (or runes), the scourge can hope to reach 60k barrier per minute (It's realistically impossible, but that's roughly it's potential).In this same ideal world, the weaver can hope to reach 40k barrier per minute, yet also have access to blocks, evade skills and invuln frames. (like scourge it's realistically impossible number)Realistic numbers put weaver at 30k and scourge at 50K.

So it's my mistake, the scourge indeed do output more barrier than weaver. That said, to see that the various extra blocks, evade skills and invuln frames account for merely 20k incoming damage mitigated is a bit disheartening.

NB.: These numbers are for PvP setting and don't take into account that the weaver have superior toughness potential and damage reduction potential, let's just say that the 8k extra base health of the necromancer compensate for that.

Show your calculations. Otherwise saying you crunched the numbers isn't that useful since anyone can say they have done the same and just post numbers.

[Dadnir.5038]

Sure:Weaver:

• Elemental refreshment: In a minute you can cycle 2 time through the 6 dual skills of your weapon set: 12 x 254 = 3048/min
• Bolstered element: In a minute you can only proc it 1 time for 5 pulses: 1069 x 5 = 5345/min. Also grant 680 barrier per stance use (that I do not take into account within, to help weavers feel good).
• Invigorating strike: within a minute, granted a normal endurance regen the potential of this trait is: 8 x 662 = 5296/min
• Stone resonance: You can use it 3 time within a minute: 3 x 5 x 1069 = 16035/min
• Which put us close to 30k/min. (29724 without the 680 per stance used)

Scourge:

• Desert shroud: 3 use within a minte for: 3 x 5016 = 15048/min
• Sand cascade: 6 use per minute for: 6 x 2428 = 14568/min
• Sand flare: 3 use per minute for: 3 x 4839 = 14517/min
• Desert empowerment: 7 use per minute for: 7 x 1050 = 7350/min
• I consider serpent siphon and sand swell as aleatoire as bolstered element barrier per stance. This put scourge at close to 50k/min (51483)
• With both serpent siphon and sand swell probably between 60k and 65k.

NB: Core elementalist can also put out quite a bit of barrier through earth shield skills (and yes you can keep up earth shield, as unrealistic as it seem):

• Magnetic shield: 3 time within a minute for: 3 x 3(foes) x 2(seconds) x 778 = 14004/min
• Stone sheath: 7 time within a minute for: 7 x 2(seconds) x 778 = 10892/min
• Thus, Earth shield alone allow you 24896/min. If you add stone resonance, bolstered element and invigorating stike, it put the weaver at 51572/min (without the barrier per stance used).

NB(2): Numbers for scrapper are impossible to be done due to it's barrier potential being directly influenced by it's ability to deal damage.