HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"battledrone.8315" said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the current players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

It was a matter of timing, not of how well (or not well) the game was doing. They decided to make an expansion around the time they were developing Season 2.Core went F2P a few months before the launch of the expansion. The expectation was that these Free players would get hooked by the Core game in those 2-3 months (free to play in August, HOT launch in October) and then when the expansion launches, they'd buy the expansion. Unfortunately, it appears the Core game didn't manage to hook enough of these free players, leading to lower than expected expansion sales

There is a reason they added gliding to Core tyria, to advertise the expansion, to try to entice players to buy it whether they liked the core experience as it was or not.

[battledrone.8315]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

[kharmin.7683]

What makes a game or content "replayable" is quite subjective. I haven't finished the core story, not because I found it too hard, but because I didn't care for the story. However, I find plenty of things to do in open world that makes core maps replayable for me. While I respect the work that went into map design in HoT, I don't prefer them so I don't go there. I don't run through PoF maps too often because I don't like the aggo radius of the mobs and the intermittent lag that has been an issue in PoF/LS4 maps. I would probably go there more often if not for those factors./shrug

[battledrone.8315]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"battledrone.8315" said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

The problem was how anet worded hot to include core game even tho it was f2p-so ppl got angry at price and quit but before hot game ppl quite as there was no end game or much content and the current content grew stale . You want anet to favor ppl who maybe play 2-3 hours a week thats what casual gamer means.

[battledrone.8315]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

[battledrone.8315]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

The problem was how anet worded hot to include core game even tho it was f2p-so ppl got angry at price and quit but before hot game ppl quite as there was no end game or much content and the current content grew stale . You want anet to favor ppl who maybe play 2-3 hours a week thats what casual gamer means.

yep. the biggest customer base, and they dont even expect that much in return.it worked pretty well for wow, who do you think paid for the majority of all those raids and dungeons? the 500k raiders , or the 10 mio NORMAL people?

[Atomos.7593]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

I haven't played those MMOs so I can't compare GW2 f2p to them. But like I said before GW2 went f2p quite early compared to MMOs I have played. No one is going to buy a product early on just because the devs claim it has replay value, unless they are naive. I have seen plenty of games claim this only to later be disappointed. So early sales figures are quite meaningless here for this purpose.

Actually, I see plenty of players in game in all of the HoT maps all the time, even years and years after release (but I guess these are all bots right?). In comparison I found the PoF maps to be quite dead as well as boring to me. In my experience core Tyria was in between these too. The map designs in that area are great, which probably helps to attract players there.

Do you actually have any exact numbers to support your bold claim of several millions of disappointed customers as a result of HoT?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

It's a good thing "casual" isn't defined by your particular preferences. As a casual player myself, I couldn't disagree with you more than I already do, but that Orr is "hardcore"...just wow.

[WorldofBay.8160]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@WorldofBay.8160 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:the fact, that they nerfed hot is proof, that it didnt do well. and it is not normal to buy expansions in a game, that you HATE.

the fact that the shatterer got buffed is proof that core is too easy.see i can use that argument as well.

its a hardcore boss, that most casuals would never touch anyway. they can give him 100 mio HP, and make him invincible for all i care

it's not even close to a hardcore boss. pre-buff the shatterer was just "stand in place and auto-attack with a ranged weapon". you can't go easier than that, you could go afk during the shatterer and kill it.it got changed because it was not popular and no fun either. the shatterer received HoT mechanics (gliding), more movement (to stop afking), more group play (break bar), more rewards (achievements) and a whole lot of additional trash mobs running around. that was a rather big buff.

[Healix.5819]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT.

And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better.

2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Healix.5819 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT.

And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better.

2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch.

Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that?

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

It's a good thing "casual" isn't defined by your particular preferences. As a casual player myself, I couldn't disagree with you more than I already do, but that Orr is "hardcore"...just wow.

orr isnt particular hard anymore, but it is simply not a fun place to be. i know the reasons for that, but it will never get popular.and having a unpopular end pretty much negates the rest of the game. it feels cheap and tacked on too, not like the previous parts of the gameand calling your self a "casual" doesnt make you one. the numbers and their actions tell you all you need to know. theyre wastingtime and resources on something, that will never work for the average players. but hey, its your money, you spend them as you please

[battledrone.8315]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

I haven't played those MMOs so I can't compare GW2 f2p to them. But like I said before GW2 went f2p quite early compared to MMOs I have played. No one is going to buy a product early on just because the devs claim it has replay value, unless they are naive. I have seen plenty of games claim this only to later be disappointed. So early sales figures are quite meaningless here for this purpose.

Actually, I see plenty of players in game in all of the HoT maps all the time, even years and years after release (but I guess these are all bots right?). In comparison I found the PoF maps to be quite dead as well as boring to me. In my experience core Tyria was in between these too. The map designs in that area are great, which probably helps to attract players there.

Do you actually have any exact numbers to support your bold claim of several millions of disappointed customers as a result of HoT?

unless "plenty" is roughly 200k players, then it doesnt mean jack. thats like calling a random stretch of road "POPULATED" if 2 hobos meet on the streetnever said several mios left over hot, i said they have disappointed several mios OVERALL

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

It's a good thing "casual" isn't defined by your particular preferences. As a casual player myself, I couldn't disagree with you more than I already do, but that Orr is "hardcore"...just wow.

orr isnt particular hard anymore, but it is simply not a fun place to be. i know the reasons for that, but it will never get popular.and having a unpopular end pretty much negates the rest of the game. it feels cheap and tacked on too, not like the previous parts of the gameand calling your self a "casual" doesnt make you one. the numbers and their actions tell you all you need to know. theyre wastingtime and resources on something, that will never work for the average players. but hey, its your money, you spend them as you please

Likewise calling yourself casual does not mean you speak for all casual players. But it wouldn't be the first (or last) time you presume to do so. Once again in case you missed it: You are simply not representative of the average player. Sorry!

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

It's a good thing "casual" isn't defined by your particular preferences. As a casual player myself, I couldn't disagree with you more than I already do, but that Orr is "hardcore"...just wow.

orr isnt particular hard anymore, but it is simply not a fun place to be. i know the reasons for that, but it will never get popular.and having a unpopular end pretty much negates the rest of the game. it feels cheap and tacked on too, not like the previous parts of the gameand calling your self a "casual" doesnt make you one. the numbers and their actions tell you all you need to know. theyre wastingtime and resources on something, that will never work for the average players. but hey, its your money, you spend them as you please

Likewise calling yourself casual does not mean you speak for all casual players. But it wouldn't be the first (or last) time you presume to do so. Once again in case you missed it: You are simply not representative of the average player. Sorry!

more average than you, since i have stopped playing together with most of the other playerslets see how much hardcore content you get, when other players arent paying for it

[Atomos.7593]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

I haven't played those MMOs so I can't compare GW2 f2p to them. But like I said before GW2 went f2p quite early compared to MMOs I have played. No one is going to buy a product early on just because the devs claim it has replay value, unless they are naive. I have seen plenty of games claim this only to later be disappointed. So early sales figures are quite meaningless here for this purpose.

Actually, I see plenty of players in game in all of the HoT maps all the time, even years and years after release (but I guess these are all bots right?). In comparison I found the PoF maps to be quite dead as well as boring to me. In my experience core Tyria was in between these too. The map designs in that area are great, which probably helps to attract players there.

Do you actually have any exact numbers to support your bold claim of several millions of disappointed customers as a result of HoT?

unless "plenty" is roughly 200k players, then it doesnt mean jack. thats like calling a random stretch of road "POPULATED" if 2 hobos meet on the streetnever said several mios left over hot, i said they have disappointed several mios OVERALL

I have no idea how many players you need in a map to consider it active, but I see many players in all the HoT maps. Definitely more than the PoF expansion and some areas of core. I prefer not to use baseless statistics to determine what plenty is, since you can always artificially increase the number that you would consider to be "plenty".

Like I asked before do you actually have any sources to confirm these several million disappointed players from HoT? I never suggested that these players had to leave the game.

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT.

And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better.

2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch.

Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that?

the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR.listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" contentif it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.

tell that to swtor. and tera. an teso. and sto. and prolly a bunch of other mmos, that i didnt play.and if the core game was so replayable, how would you ever sell any expansions?OTOH, if hot had the replay value, that you think, it would had done far better.fact is, that only a small fraction of players ever FINISHED it. that is not reply value, that is simply a bad product for the consumers it was sold todoesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, that those customers will be less than pleased with the company, that made itand when you have several millions of disappointed customers, your company is going to nowhere pretty fast

So if anet removed all content after orr it would be perfect for you? And even nerfed orr so no difficulty of any form could exist?

nope, orr has to go from the main storyline too, if they ever want it to be truly casual. they have already nerfed it twice, so the mobs arentthe big issue anymore, it is the maps and the content.they can make hard content if they want, i am even willing to pay my share of it.but dont expect me to pay unless they make some new casual content tooand LW is not casual. not at all.

It's a good thing "casual" isn't defined by your particular preferences. As a casual player myself, I couldn't disagree with you more than I already do, but that Orr is "hardcore"...just wow.

orr isnt particular hard anymore, but it is simply not a fun place to be. i know the reasons for that, but it will never get popular.and having a unpopular end pretty much negates the rest of the game. it feels cheap and tacked on too, not like the previous parts of the gameand calling your self a "casual" doesnt make you one. the numbers and their actions tell you all you need to know. theyre wastingtime and resources on something, that will never work for the average players. but hey, its your money, you spend them as you please

Likewise calling yourself casual does not mean you speak for all casual players. But it wouldn't be the first (or last) time you presume to do so. Once again in case you missed it: You are simply not representative of the average player. Sorry!

more average than you, since i have stopped playing together with most of the other playerslets see how much hardcore content you get, when other players arent paying for it

I told you. I'm a casual player. However, the word "casual" does not equate to "potato" in my dictionary. It simply means that I tend to participate in casual content such as unranked PvP, WvW roaming by myself or with a friend, and open world/story content. The more organized the content, the less I participate. That's my definition of casual. It doesn't mean I'm not amazing at playing this game. It just means I don't go for organized group play (They get a little too serious for my tastes, generally!).

[AliamRationem.5172]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT.

And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better.

2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch.

Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that?

the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR.listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" contentif it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet

MMOs without endgame content usually fail, don't they? I'm not sure why it's a surprise.

[Linken.6345]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT.

And why weren't people buying the game? Of course making it free would lower sales, but HoT was expected to sell a lot more than that. Who could have predicted that the core game would end up selling better.

2 million people joined between going free and HoT. 20% of that would have met expectations.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core. Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

Steam was just a bonus. They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time. The 25% drop is 3.2 million USD, which is nearly double the units HoT was selling after launch.

Who could have predicted that an expansion wouldn't sell as many copies as an original release? Serious question here: Has that ever been a thing for any game? Further, they waited 3 years to release that expansion while providing no proper PvE endgame with which to retain long-term players. Who with any sense would have expected the expansion to sell well when you basically murder your own product with poor decisions like that?

the "long term" players had already FINISHED THE GAME. THEY HAD GOTTEN, WHAT THEY PAID FOR.listening to them is simply wrong on every level. and only a total noob would ever log into a new mmo for "endgame" contentif it even exists, then it isnt properly optimized yet

You dont finish mmorpgs they are not single player games and are instead endlessly expanded upon.Untill they are not profitable anymore and slowly go into oblivion.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Healix.5819" said:And why weren't people buying the game?

Because they left the game early as they didn't like the core experience? Why do you gloss over this possibility? If you take a look at the achievement leaderboards they are a dead giveaway of players quitting this game very early.You are still insisting that players that quit a game after finishing the tutorial, or quit a game mid-way through, are still a responsibility of the expansion to convert. I guess we won't agree on that subject and when the game launches on Steam or when End of Dragon launches we will have a very similar discussion (if no changes happen to the core game before either)

Both are true, unless you're trying to say 100% of casuals quit - only some would have, while others had no problem and some never left core.

Let's use a simple mathematical equation here. Again with a loose interpretation of the word "casual" because that's extremely vague.X is the revenue from casuals, Y is the revenue from non-casuals, Z is the total revenue. We work with the assumption that X is higher than Y because "casuals pay the bills"X + Y = ZIf both arguments were true, value of X being higher than value of Y AND X being severely reduced, then it stands to reason that Z would also go down. But we know it didn't. This also ties in with your argument that NCSoft told us that thousands/millions of players quit due to HOT, but that's not implied in the links you provided. So either X isn't as high as projected OR X wasn't reduced, because both at the same time are ruled out by mathematics.

Casuals make up the majority, and as a whole they pay the bills, but most don't spend anything and the 1% whales can easily rival them.

By the way, I'm interested to know where are your sources for this.

A simple acknowledgement and image of Cantha ended up being bigger than HoT's big event and rivaled PoF's pre-purchases.

It's Cantha after all. The hype is real about it.

They would have known exactly what HoT was making at the time.

Of course they did, just like they knew how much the Heroic Edition was making before going free to play. They are business decisions, they take a hit to their near future revenue to get more out of it in the future.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:orr isnt particular hard anymore, but it is simply not a fun place to be. i know the reasons for that, but it will never get popular.

I'd like to see the patch notes with new changes to Orr because all the old ones didn't really make Orr easier, so saying that Orr isn't particularly hard anymore requires some patch notes (that I missed all these years)Second, Orr was the ONLY popular place in the game with hundreds of overflow maps doing Plinx, Magil and Penil/Shelter farms, that's where this game's playerbase was congregating, making the rest of the game (before the August 2013 update) seem empty and devoid of life. Just because you didn't like Orr, doesn't mean the playerbase didn't like Orr. You are NOT representative of this game's playerbase so you need to stop projecting your case on the playerbase about either popularity or difficulty.