HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

[ASP.8093]

The actual "endgame rewards" are cosmetics (equipment skins, aura infusions), ascended/legendary gear, achievement titles, and stuff you buy with mastery points (including e.g. Skyscale). That's why people call the game "Fashion Wars." Exotics are < 1g a piece on the TP. They're your stepping-stone into endgame.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

Story beats are earned by beating bosses and completing story steps. You don't get BiS gear by just logging in. Of course you could monetize your laurels and login rewards to buy them, but that'd take literal months when you could technically have it done in a single month if you worked towards it. BiS gear gets even easier to achieve the more of it you have as, eventually, you'll stockpile so many extra currencies that just allow you to directly purchase ascended, you bypass the monthly crafting timegate. Making a legendary exclusively through login rewards takes a minimum of 11 months, while farming it would at least halve that time.

OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.

False. You can spam buttons in big meta events and ping mobs with damage, earning tags and loot. At the end you salvage all and deposit, earning materials.

if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

This game rewards those who put forth time and effort. It just doesn't punish those who want to leech or be lazy.

[mindcircus.1506]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

More like...

Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group!Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool!A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

yep. all 200k casual players, that the game stilll had, finished the expansions. sto was down to 200k at one point, that made them sell out toperfect world. CoX had more, when they shut that down. co is at roughly 300k, and they are on life support.numbers like that are practically devastating for a big mmoCoX never had 200k concurrent.Ever.Not even during the peak of it's popularity (the 6 months following CoV)When CoX was online you could very easily see just how many people were playing at any given point via a site that showed just how many people were on each server. The server numbers were easily generated as each zone gave it's population (including players in associated instances)CoX rarely peaked over 70k.The night they shut down they had less than 15k. I was there.

Why are you inventing false statistics?

if they have 70k online, then they have over 500k total. people need to sleep too.and i meant when the decision was made, having 15k online in the very last seconds is actually quite goodSo you are making up more numbers to cover for the fact you were just exposed for making up numbers."At our peak, we had 180,000 subscribers."

https://www.gamefront.com/games/gamingtoday/article/cryptic-ceo-jack-emmert-talks-neverwinter-mmos-and-more

gg

[Tawniey.3796]

@"AdamWarlord.6782" said:...Edit: I get where most of you all are coming from, But as i said, its my opinion and many other casual gamers opinion on the content. Leading to a player driven balance, not a balance for everyone.

I see that this thread has turned into an 18 page de-evolution, so I'm quoting the original opening for my response to OP's original statement with the understanding that my post may be buried in the newer conversation.

Here's the thing about HoT Open World that many people don't like to consider: It was designed with difficult, and specifically group content in mind. It was designed to push people out of their "zerker is always good enough and if it isnt, git gud" mindset (which has unfortunately resurfaced again). It was designed to feel like you were in the midst of the hellish circumstances that the story tells you that your character is in.

I shortened my quote of your post not only to collapse a text wall, but also because you mention wanting individual-balanced content. However, when HoT was released, I can remember it being pushed that this was meant to be a place you brought allies into, especially at first. Despite having made many purposeful changes from GW1's semi-MMO content where things were instanced to your party in explorable zones, many people play this game (along with other MMOs) solo except when it is required that you group. But, MMOs are meant to be social games. I understand that it may be difficult or impossible for some to find friends who are online at the right times or with the right frequency to play together as a static group, but that's why guilds are formed and recruit. That's why LFG exists— to help you find people who are wanting to do the content you would like to do right when you want to do it.

HoT was meant to knock you on your rump if you weren't prepared. People in this thread have mentioned feeling like the difficulty scale of HoT feels like a "wall", but there is and was progression— you were not meant to jump from Cursed Shore to Verdant Brink. You were supposed to explore Southsun Cove. You were meant to play through Dry Top and Silverwastes (which was once more tower-defense than the zerg it became with the RIBA strategy). Silverwastes alone was enough to convince many pre-HoT players that berserker's gear wasn't the only gear that had merit. It made stun breaks necessary and Stability something you considered bringing. It introduced more complex mechanics for each overworld mob (Teragriffs trample, Leeching Thrashers will drop an AOE that will heal it if you stand in it, Husks are most vulnerable to conditions bc of high Toughness stat). This is also why almost every single HoT stat-set included defensive stats that people had previously written off as "noob gear only".

As at least several have stated before me, the challenge of HoT was designed to change the way the player approaches the content, and was something that even back in the original scaling was fun and rewarding to overcome. The nerf you are requesting would, in my opinion, delegitimize the effort put into the design of that zone as something that made you pause and reevaluate the strategy you had used for the Core game as you progressed into End Game Content. Instead, I strongly recommend finding a guild or group to bring in, evaluating your build and what needs you may have as a player for the zone, and re-approaching these maps with the idea of "challenge" in mind.

(Edited for typo correction)

[battledrone.8315]

@ASP.8093 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

So you should have no problem re-gearing your Daredevil then.

And around and around we go.

why would i log into the game , if there is no more content for me? and if i did, i certainly wouldnt waste more time on thief and ele.and regearing into what spec?

[battledrone.8315]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

What login rewards? Also what exactly are you arguing here? All you're proving is that there are multiple ways to get the same thing, which defeats the complaint about the difficulty level (or the amount of grind and whatever you were trying to complain about here) walling you off from content. If you're not interested in playing the game, improving yourself as a player and progressing through zones that aren't the equivalent of a literal starting zone, then you can still earn most of the things you """need""" through... yeah, logging in and doing the absolute basics. So what exactly is your complaint?You don't automatically DESERVE to complete every bit of content and achievement if all you want is pressing one button like you're in a starting zone. If that's what you expect from the game, then switch to some literal auto-play mobile pseudo-mmorpg.

And you still didn't tell me which buld

that you know how to use

you were forced to abandon by the dificulty level of the content. Are you just throwing out empty claims like this constantly and when questioned about details you abandon it entirely, because what you've said is just false?

if i didnt know how to use my build, i prolly wouldnt had gotten that far.it was a pistol/dagger build with many survival skills.YOU claimed, that we have to "earn" things. something, that is blatantly wrong in this game

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Holgarf.6581 said:If I recall, HoT was made more difficult because some folks felt the core Tyrian content was too easy... so Anet went the other extreme by making HoT pretty tough for a lot of class types (but not all). By the time PoF rolled around they got the balance for the second expansion just right which kind of works out when you go back to HoT... it still offers a challenge but isn't as brutal as it was going from Tyria to HoT.

pof is prolly the most unpopular expansion, and i have given up getting some of my toons through it. it is better than hot, but that doesnt say much.but it has better maps , too bad they made them such a PITA to play in .

It just goes to show you what happens when you listen to the noisiest complainers. They exaggerate everything and speak as if they represent everyone else, but when you give them what they say they want they don't stop complaining and they still don't play. HoT is clearly the more active and popular expansion of the two, as you say. I hope they've learned their lesson on that!

pof was easier. icebrood is easier. how do you think cantha will be, given that it will prolly have a new race with starting zones?steam launch will show their plans and commitment. if they launch as is, then they are already working on the next game.but if they bring out the biggest nerfhammer, then they actually have long term plans for the game.

[battledrone.8315]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Holgarf.6581 said:If I recall, HoT was made more difficult because some folks felt the core Tyrian content was too easy... so Anet went the other extreme by making HoT pretty tough for a lot of class types (but not all). By the time PoF rolled around they got the balance for the second expansion just right which kind of works out when you go back to HoT... it still offers a challenge but isn't as brutal as it was going from Tyria to HoT.

pof is prolly the most unpopular expansion, and i have given up getting some of my toons through it. it is better than hot, but that doesnt say much.but it has better maps , too bad they made them such a PITA to play in .

Most unpopular for you perhaps? Given that there are only two expansions, though, there really isn't much competition between them.

it is VERY hard to find a pof defender. it is either core or hot lovers. and pof failed to please both groups. at least hot is consistant , pof is a weirdmishmash of content and ideas. you have a few super casual hearts hidden behind some harder parts. where they dont really help much anyway.

[battledrone.8315]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

More like...

Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group!Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool!A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

yep. all 200k casual players, that the game stilll had, finished the expansions. sto was down to 200k at one point, that made them sell out toperfect world. CoX had more, when they shut that down. co is at roughly 300k, and they are on life support.numbers like that are practically devastating for a big mmoCoX never had 200k concurrent.Ever.Not even during the peak of it's popularity (the 6 months following CoV)When CoX was online you could very easily see just how many people were playing at any given point via a site that showed just how many people were on each server. The server numbers were easily generated as each zone gave it's population (including players in associated instances)CoX rarely peaked over 70k.The night they shut down they had less than 15k. I was there.

Why are you inventing false statistics?

if they have 70k online, then they have over 500k total. people need to sleep too.and i meant when the decision was made, having 15k online in the very last seconds is actually quite goodSo you are making up more numbers to cover for the fact you were just exposed for making up numbers."At our peak, we had 180,000 subscribers."

https://www.gamefront.com/games/gamingtoday/article/cryptic-ceo-jack-emmert-talks-neverwinter-mmos-and-more

gg

180k subs. and how many F2Pers? yea.....

[Cyninja.2954]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@"Holgarf.6581" said:If I recall, HoT was made more difficult because some folks felt the core Tyrian content was too easy... so Anet went the other extreme by making HoT pretty tough for a lot of class types (but not all). By the time PoF rolled around they got the balance for the second expansion just right which kind of works out when you go back to HoT... it still offers a challenge but isn't as brutal as it was going from Tyria to HoT.

pof is prolly the most unpopular expansion, and i have given up getting some of my toons through it. it is better than hot, but that doesnt say much.but it has better maps , too bad they made them such a PITA to play in .

It just goes to show you what happens when you listen to the noisiest complainers. They exaggerate everything and speak as if they represent everyone else, but when you give them what they say they want they don't stop complaining and they still don't play. HoT is clearly the more active and popular expansion of the two, as you say. I hope they've learned their lesson on that!

pof was easier. icebrood is easier. how do you think cantha will be, given that it will prolly have a new race with starting zones?steam launch will show their plans and commitment. if they launch as is, then they are already working on the next game.but if they bring out the biggest nerfhammer, then they actually have long term plans for the game.

Steam will launch as is with maybe a ban wave, and some type of tutorial, that's it. Yet your interpretation of what this would mean is lacking .

A. there is an expansion in the worksB. there are teams working on the current SagaC. there is 1 additional title in the works that we know of, which has yet to be named

If you expect there to be significant changes with Steam, I'm going to burst your bubble right here and now. There is no way there are enough developers available. That said, if you had been paying attention to this year content releases and the goals behind them:

1. Strikes were introduced as an additional gap closer between "open world" and more advanced content
2. new tutorial achievements were introduced to ease players introduction to the game
3. the latest fractal is 1 big training ground
4. a tutorial page was released explaining the basics
5. most of the Saga content is designed in a way to teach players basics of the game, both via events as well as story missions
6. overall activity and engagement is up (aka more grind is being introduced to keep players occupied. Not difficulty related but certainly game time spent)

All of that does not scream:"We are going back to starter zone difficulty for all content." It literally shows that the developers are trying to make the game more accessible to players while maintaining slightly above afk levels of difficulty. How this works out, given this years numbers are up, will determinate the studios future plans.

[Shikaru.7618]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

What login rewards? Also what exactly are you arguing here? All you're proving is that there are multiple ways to get the same thing, which defeats the complaint about the difficulty level (or the amount of grind and whatever you were trying to complain about here) walling you off from content. If you're not interested in playing the game, improving yourself as a player and progressing through zones that aren't the equivalent of a literal starting zone, then you can still earn most of the things you """need""" through... yeah, logging in and doing the absolute basics. So what exactly is your complaint?You don't automatically DESERVE to complete every bit of content and achievement if all you want is pressing one button like you're in a starting zone. If that's what you expect from the game, then switch to some literal auto-play mobile pseudo-mmorpg.

And you still didn't tell me which buld

that you know how to use

you were forced to abandon by the dificulty level of the content. Are you just throwing out empty claims like this constantly and when questioned about details you abandon it entirely, because what you've said is just false?

if i didnt know how to use my build, i prolly wouldnt had gotten that far.it was a pistol/dagger build with many survival skills.YOU claimed, that we have to "earn" things. something, that is blatantly wrong in this game

Thats the point you dont seem to understand. You dont have to know how to use your build to get this far because the core game is that easy. I can roll the dice on my gear and trait selection, blindfold myself during combat encounters, roll my face and the keyboard and beat the core game. You think this is an exaggeration yet I've literally beaten story missions using this method to prove the point to others. Sure you might die a few times but the game is so forgiving that you don't lose progress. Its a matter of when not if.

Just because you got through core with pistol/dagger, dont mistake that for you making good build choices. That weapon combo is awful for general pve and is at best a meme in raids.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"battledrone.8315" said:180k subs. and how many F2Pers? yea.....

Given how CoX was making less than 3k in a whole quarter after it went f2p it's safe to say that they had much less active players than that. Do note that 180k is at the game's PEAK, which was way earlier than when it went f2p... a few years earlier in fact. He didn't say "we had 180k subscribers when the game went free to play", so your argument is invalid.

[mindcircus.1506]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws.

Yes it did a good job in the first 4 months. After that its job became less and less worthy.

expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.

Expansions sell to players that are finished with the core experience, players that haven't finished the core, or quit very early, aren't likely to buy an expansion. Some games solve this issue by streamlining their original experience and making it much faster, so players can reach the good content of the expansion sooner. Guild Wars 2 didn't do anything of the sort.

and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core

First, for someone that played this game for the 3 years between release and the launch of the expansion they are very similar, in fact outside the confusing three dimensional map there is very little in terms of challenge/difficulty in HOT that players didn't face during S1 and S2, it was more of a natural progression. Sure those that quit the game early and then came back 3 years later expecting the expansion to be more like the original game, bypassing 3 full years of progress, would say that there is little in common with core. But the players that actually played the game? Not so much.

that they dont appeal to most of the players there

Actually NCsoft didn't tell us that "core players converting to HOT were less than expected", they said "FREE players converting to HOT were less than expected", there is a vast difference between the two phrases. The first phrase would indicate the expansion didn't sell well among the

current

players, those who stayed with the game after S1/S2, the most loyal customers of Arenanet. But they didn't say that, meaning the current player conversion to HOT wasn't unexpected. The problem was with FREE players not converting

mmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

There was no split though. HOT was the natural progression after S1 and S2. It only felt as a split to those who quit the game after they reached Orr, ignored three full years of content releases, then came back for the expansion expecting more of the original Core game.

games drop down the list with their age, this is nothing new. AFAIK they had roughly 50k box sales every month right before F2P.that is a solid number, considering the age, and the competition back thenof course the expansions dont sell well, since they are so different from the core gamecasual gamer: this is great, i cant wait for the expansions. but he doesnt get them , because they dont exist. no salehardcore gamer: i have to slug through 80 levels of this trash to get to the good parts? back to the old mmo. no sale

More like...

Casual gamer: This is great! In the expansions there is tons of content that is easily accessible and doesn't require practicing with a premade group!Hardcore gamer: There are raids in GW2 PvE now? Cool!A Potato: I'ma go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

yep. all 200k casual players, that the game stilll had, finished the expansions. sto was down to 200k at one point, that made them sell out toperfect world. CoX had more, when they shut that down. co is at roughly 300k, and they are on life support.numbers like that are practically devastating for a big mmoCoX never had 200k concurrent.Ever.Not even during the peak of it's popularity (the 6 months following CoV)When CoX was online you could very easily see just how many people were playing at any given point via a site that showed just how many people were on each server. The server numbers were easily generated as each zone gave it's population (including players in associated instances)CoX rarely peaked over 70k.The night they shut down they had less than 15k. I was there.

Why are you inventing false statistics?

if they have 70k online, then they have over 500k total. people need to sleep too.and i meant when the decision was made, having 15k online in the very last seconds is actually quite goodSo you are making up more numbers to cover for the fact you were just exposed for making up numbers."At our peak, we had 180,000 subscribers."

https://www.gamefront.com/games/gamingtoday/article/cryptic-ceo-jack-emmert-talks-neverwinter-mmos-and-more

gg

180k subs. and how many F2Pers? yea.....

At it's peak the game had no F2P option.The game peaked with the release of CoV when the game was still sub only.Seriously battledrone...Why are you spouting false statistics?

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Shikaru.7618 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

What login rewards? Also what exactly are you arguing here? All you're proving is that there are multiple ways to get the same thing, which defeats the complaint about the difficulty level (or the amount of grind and whatever you were trying to complain about here) walling you off from content. If you're not interested in playing the game, improving yourself as a player and progressing through zones that aren't the equivalent of a literal starting zone, then you can still earn most of the things you """need""" through... yeah, logging in and doing the absolute basics. So what exactly is your complaint?You don't automatically DESERVE to complete every bit of content and achievement if all you want is pressing one button like you're in a starting zone. If that's what you expect from the game, then switch to some literal auto-play mobile pseudo-mmorpg.

And you still didn't tell me which buld

that you know how to use

you were forced to abandon by the dificulty level of the content. Are you just throwing out empty claims like this constantly and when questioned about details you abandon it entirely, because what you've said is just false?

if i didnt know how to use my build, i prolly wouldnt had gotten that far.it was a pistol/dagger build with many survival skills.YOU claimed, that we have to "earn" things. something, that is blatantly wrong in this game

Thats the point you dont seem to understand. You dont have to know how to use your build to get this far because the core game is that easy. I can roll the dice on my gear and trait selection, blindfold myself during combat encounters, roll my face and the keyboard and beat the core game. You think this is an exaggeration yet I've literally beaten story missions using this method to prove the point to others. Sure you might die a few times but the game is so forgiving that you don't lose progress. Its a matter of when not if.

Just because you got through core with pistol/dagger, dont mistake that for you making good build choices. That weapon combo is awful for general pve and is at best a meme in raids.

You do know he wont agree right and its no point in arguing about it

[Sobx.1758]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

What login rewards? Also what exactly are you arguing here? All you're proving is that there are multiple ways to get the same thing, which defeats the complaint about the difficulty level (or the amount of grind and whatever you were trying to complain about here) walling you off from content. If you're not interested in playing the game, improving yourself as a player and progressing through zones that aren't the equivalent of a literal starting zone, then you can still earn most of the things you """need""" through... yeah, logging in and doing the absolute basics. So what exactly is your complaint?You don't automatically DESERVE to complete every bit of content and achievement if all you want is pressing one button like you're in a starting zone. If that's what you expect from the game, then switch to some literal auto-play mobile pseudo-mmorpg.

And you still didn't tell me which buld

that you know how to use

you were forced to abandon by the dificulty level of the content. Are you just throwing out empty claims like this constantly and when questioned about details you abandon it entirely, because what you've said is just false?

if i didnt know how to use my build, i prolly wouldnt had gotten that far.it was a pistol/dagger build with many survival skills.

"far"? As in going through the main story is somehow "getting far with a build" and means "you know how to use it"? :DAnd btw just listing weapons isn't "a build".

YOU claimed, that we have to "earn" things. something, that is blatantly wrong in this game

How is "earning things" in mmorpg being suddenly "wrong" or even anything out of ordinary? What exactly are you talking about here? How exactly is this a valid complaint in a game?

[ASP.8093]

@"battledrone.8315" said:it is VERY hard to find a pof defender. it is either core or hot lovers. and pof failed to please both groups. at least hot is consistant , pof is a weirdmishmash of content and ideas. you have a few super casual hearts hidden behind some harder parts. where they dont really help much anyway.

Psshh. I'll gladly defend POF.

• The story is more than just the usual "inspire the Pact a bunch" box-checking, credible antagonists that actually talk to you a good bit.
• Elona and the Crystal Desert are very different from what they were in Nightfall but it still respects the source material. I really like the Seeker camp at Augury Rock (Ascension Juice!), Vabbi's Joko-fied culture, navigating the Desolation.
• The maps feel big, and also "lived in." They're solo-friendly but not trivial, and the "harder" areas tend to be sign-posted well (like Forged camps).
• Reduced density of hearts compared to Core is actually the game respecting your time, imo.
• The Masteries are easy to pick up quickly (much more so than HoT's), and only a few are required to navigate the maps effectively.
• The Griffon was a very cool surprise for completing PoF, and the scavenger hunt for it is manageable and fun (I wish the gold price was lower, but whatever).
• Everyone who complains about the enemies' leash range is a coward.

[Asgaeroth.6427]

@sitarskee.5738 said:Calling yourself a casual ain't no excuse. If you can't do it then it's not for you. You're not good enough to make that legendary.

I just hate people who see problems everywhere but not in them. You're bad, you have to change - not the environment for you so you can be less bad.

This is the mentality that killed GW2 as a profitable product and caused Anet's rapid decline as a company. The game has plenty of room to have crushingly difficult content available to those who need it and also not be a miserable slog for the vast majority of people who install the product. HoT surface mobs in the gathering and public event areas was not and is still not the right place for brutalizing difficulty spikes.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

So you should have no problem re-gearing your Daredevil then.

And around and around we go.

why would i log into the game , if there is no more content for me? and if i did, i certainly wouldnt waste more time on thief and ele.and regearing into what spec?

There's plenty more content for you if you actually change your mindset and improve at the game. You know, games have things called mechanics. Sometimes either through a shift in balance or introduction of new content, old strategies fail to work while new ones start to. This whole game is about being versatile with your build. This is why you can swap your traits and skills freely out of combat. One build not doing it for you? Perhaps this other one will! It's up to you, the player, to figure out strategies and overcome the challenges the game puts forth.

[Tren.5120]

Play ESO.

GW2 is a game for casuals, but Heart of Thorns was probably the worst expansion that I've experienced in an MMORPG - and I've been playing them since EQ circa 2000/2001. The only thing that approaches it is the Eureka Anemos update in FFXIV, but for different reasons.

The Maps are Cancerous. They're chock full of MOBs. The Hero Points are put in some of the weirdest places. The mastery gating is ridiculous.

It's definitely more playable now, with PoFire Mounts, and that's why I quit 30 minutes after buying HoT until after PoFire was released.

I value my time, and I definitely value getting entertained by a game more than frustrated.

But I spend most of my time in ESO now. I played GW2 primarily and only when a friend of mine logged in, cause we socialize while playing games (he lives far away). But, I bought him ESO Greymoor for his BD, so we're likely going to put this one to rest.

Pray they don't make the same mistake in the next expansion. PoFire was much better than HoT - it isn't even close. The only issue I have with GW2 is that the content is too derivative, and there isn't much meat in it, in terms of progression. That's why I'm getting my friend on ESO. SO we have something that has better long term progression goodness in it.

[Tren.5120]

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

So you should have no problem re-gearing your Daredevil then.

And around and around we go.

why would i log into the game , if there is no more content for me? and if i did, i certainly wouldnt waste more time on thief and ele.and regearing into what spec?

There's plenty more content for you if you actually change your mindset and improve at the game. You know, games have things called mechanics. Sometimes either through a shift in balance or introduction of new content, old strategies fail to work while new ones start to. This whole game is about being versatile with your build. This is why you can swap your traits and skills freely out of combat. One build not doing it for you? Perhaps this other one will! It's up to you, the player, to figure out strategies and overcome the challenges the game puts forth.

You're really overselling it, Lol.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Tren.5120 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

So you should have no problem re-gearing your Daredevil then.

And around and around we go.

why would i log into the game , if there is no more content for me? and if i did, i certainly wouldnt waste more time on thief and ele.and regearing into what spec?

There's plenty more content for you if you actually change your mindset and improve at the game. You know, games have things called mechanics. Sometimes either through a shift in balance or introduction of new content, old strategies fail to work while new ones start to. This whole game is about being versatile with your build. This is why you can swap your traits and skills freely out of combat. One build not doing it for you? Perhaps this other one will! It's up to you, the player, to figure out strategies and overcome the challenges the game puts forth.

You're really overselling it, Lol.

He is? Which part exactly?

• The fact that the game allows for on the fly custimization?
• The fact that vast majority of defensive skills can make a significant difference in how a fight plays out? (Refelcts negate range attacks, blinds, aegis, crowd control skills, etc.)
• The ability to change weapon skills on the fly to a more appropriate weapon with maybe a skillset which works better against an enemy?
• The fact that changing a single, trait, traitline, or multiple, can lead to a significant different outcome? (Having issues surviving on a thief build? Slot in Invigorating Precision and get healed for 10 - 20% of each crit, etc.)

The only issue with this games difficulty is the absolute incompetence of players to actually adapt. Most are so used to the classic MMO approach of: "make 1 build that works, get the best gear I can, then bash my head against an enemy and see if it dies. If it doesn't my gear wasn't good enough." Lucky enough, most traditional gear advancing MMORPGs constantly introduce new gear to devalue older content. Thus the illusion of a player becoming better is accomplished, but you haven't actually improved game play wise. You simply out-geared the content to make up for personal inability.

HoT was hard on release. Hard because the enemys were new, the maps were truly 3 dimensional and required a new approach of traversal. All it took for a competent player was paying attention for a few minutes, realize what he was up against and then adapting. Pocket raptors dangerous? Dodge the first attack, then cleave them away (or use blinds, etc.) That smoke scale giving you trouble? Slot a block skill, move out of it's dark field, then kill it after it's engage.

Now I get that some players might not want to actually have to deal with understanding their class, the traits and skills available. That's fine. It is not overselling it though when someone explains HOW the class design in this game can actually affect success and failure.

The term "casual" gets used in way to many different ways. Being "casual" because of limited play time is understandable. Being "casual" because of a less interested approach and desire to learn a game basics is also understandable. Yet one can be "casual" game time wise and still be competent, just as one can be hardcore game time wise and utterly incompetent.

Being "casual" is no excuse for being bad at a game just as being hardcore is no guarantee one is good at a game.

[Shikaru.7618]

@"Tren.5120" said:Play ESO.

GW2 is a game for casuals, but Heart of Thorns was probably the worst expansion that I've experienced in an MMORPG - and I've been playing them since EQ circa 2000/2001. The only thing that approaches it is the Eureka Anemos update in FFXIV, but for different reasons.

The Maps are Cancerous. They're chock full of MOBs. The Hero Points are put in some of the weirdest places. The mastery gating is ridiculous.

It's definitely more playable now, with PoFire Mounts, and that's why I quit 30 minutes after buying HoT until after PoFire was released.

I value my time, and I definitely value getting entertained by a game more than frustrated.

But I spend most of my time in ESO now. I played GW2 primarily and only when a friend of mine logged in, cause we socialize while playing games (he lives far away). But, I bought him ESO Greymoor for his BD, so we're likely going to put this one to rest.

Pray they don't make the same mistake in the next expansion. PoFire was much better than HoT - it isn't even close. The only issue I have with GW2 is that the content is too derivative, and there isn't much meat in it, in terms of progression. That's why I'm getting my friend on ESO. SO we have something that has better long term progression goodness in it.

Sounds like you want a game with gear progression so that you can outgear any obstacles you happen to come across. GW2 is not the game for you as all of the progression in expansion content is (player) skill progression. Gear cap is hit before you ever hit expansion content so overcoming the expansion challenges is completely a gitgud situation. People who haven't learned how to use active defenses and play with the mentality of "getting hit once means I failed combat" will struggle. The masteries do help you navigate more easily but largely are not useful in combat.

[battledrone.8315]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

What login rewards? Also what exactly are you arguing here? All you're proving is that there are multiple ways to get the same thing, which defeats the complaint about the difficulty level (or the amount of grind and whatever you were trying to complain about here) walling you off from content. If you're not interested in playing the game, improving yourself as a player and progressing through zones that aren't the equivalent of a literal starting zone, then you can still earn most of the things you """need""" through... yeah, logging in and doing the absolute basics. So what exactly is your complaint?You don't automatically DESERVE to complete every bit of content and achievement if all you want is pressing one button like you're in a starting zone. If that's what you expect from the game, then switch to some literal auto-play mobile pseudo-mmorpg.

And you still didn't tell me which buld

that you know how to use

you were forced to abandon by the dificulty level of the content. Are you just throwing out empty claims like this constantly and when questioned about details you abandon it entirely, because what you've said is just false?

if i didnt know how to use my build, i prolly wouldnt had gotten that far.it was a pistol/dagger build with many survival skills.

"far"? As in going through the main story is somehow "getting far with a build" and means "you know how to use it"? :DAnd btw just listing weapons isn't "a build".

YOU claimed, that we have to "earn" things. something, that is blatantly wrong in this game

How is "earning things" in mmorpg being suddenly "wrong" or even anything out of ordinary? What exactly are you talking about here? How exactly is this a valid complaint in a game?

login rewards give access to some of the best gear. afk farmers. the multi loot exploit. plenty of ways to get loot without much effort. NOT earned.but many of the story bosses still dont drop anything after a hard fight, some of them even just gets the opportunity to run away to next line of defense.lots of effort, but no rewards. if you want a true work/reward system, the rewards have to match the effort.

[battledrone.8315]

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@Sir Alymer.3406 said:Video games are about the reward of overcoming a challenge, not a power trip fantasy that gets boring in 2 hours.

In fairness, video games are usually both: a challenge to overcome and a power fantasy wrapped around it, to make overcoming a rather pedestrian sort of challenge (don't stand in orange circle) feel satisfyingly momentous in some way (you saved the world, commander!).

But both are earned in some fashion, not just given out because you showed up.

login rewards...literally the best gear, just for logging in. OTOH, i can spam buttons in super long fights without ANY rewards.if you wanna talk about "earning " things, this game is prolly one of the worst examples

So you should have no problem re-gearing your Daredevil then.

And around and around we go.

why would i log into the game , if there is no more content for me? and if i did, i certainly wouldnt waste more time on thief and ele.and regearing into what spec?

There's plenty more content for you if you actually change your mindset and improve at the game. You know, games have things called mechanics. Sometimes either through a shift in balance or introduction of new content, old strategies fail to work while new ones start to. This whole game is about being versatile with your build. This is why you can swap your traits and skills freely out of combat. One build not doing it for you? Perhaps this other one will! It's up to you, the player, to figure out strategies and overcome the challenges the game puts forth.

nope, when i see the word "challenging" i am already on my way out. raiding in wow taught me not to waste time on content, that i dont enjoy.i still have a handful of toons parked at the start of orr. they will never get further, because the fun time is over

[ASP.8093]

@"Tren.5120" said:SO we have something that has better long term progression goodness in it.

Unlocking things can be a lot of fun (I'm playing Hades right now and having a blast picking up weapon abilities &c.), but normal MMO "progression" is 90% doing scutwork to make some numbers go up, and then repeating it over and over as new "content" drops. I really like not having to do that in GW2 (or GW1, for that matter).

Getting all the masteries or raising your Fractal level is a lot more satisfying than just fishing for the next planned numerical increase, imo. Because they're tangible achievements that don't then trivialize the stuff you were doing previously with inflated powers.

(And GW2 does have the Legendary stuff if you're desperate for a "hardcore" grind. It's just not at all required to have a complete experience.)