HoT = Dark Souls ? Casual Gamer perspective.

[Sobx.1758]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it does

Everything has events that loop/repeat themselves "every so often", not to mention every or almost every map having a meta event, which means all of them are made for "replayability" and connected with level scaling that was never even the question. What exactly are you "proving" right now by writing content has replayability and how EXACTLY does it change what I wrote and what you're apparently answering to?Be more specific if you want to pretend you have a point, thanks.

i stand by my first comment

Great, you have nothing to say, but for the sake of not admitting you're wrong you'll write "I stand by my first comment". I already know a few people on this forum exactly like this. You "standing by your comment" doesn't make it true. Start targetting what you're answering to and use more detail.

yes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Listened who exactly? And from where? And what are you basing that claim on? Give me sources, your idea about the situation, your imaginative scenarios that """"took place"""" -give me literally anything else than just another one of your empty claims, to which I specifically answer and then after you have nothing of value to say you back off to saying... "I STAND BY WHAT I SAID!".It's great that you're sticking to your guns, but if you have nothing to respond with then it's clear you're wrong. And you should understand that even without admitting it directly. Now start answering with much more details AND FACTS than you did until now.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Healix.5819 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You have a source for that? That specifically stated players

quitting

the game was the reason for reduced revenue?

They simply stated that there was gap between what HoT offered and what people wanted.

I'd like to see the exact wording. To read between actual lines and not what is claimed on a forum.

Now look at it from a business perspective - they lost millions of potential customers - what would you do?

They lost a lot of those customers a very long time before the launch of HOT though. And they lost the free customers they added when the game went free to play, again because of the Core game failing to convert them into paying customers. HOT is not the reason they lost millions of potential customers, maybe some day they will figure it out, but since this game is full of "spaghetti code" (a common phrase on the forums) maybe they can't really do much about it.

but instead they will no doubt re-launch on Steam with nothing changed and repeat all of the past complaints.

This is what I'm afraid of, and if the next expansion isn't a commercial success they will once again blame the expansion, instead of the real culprit, the core game. But time will tell, there is time and maybe there is a massive overhaul in the works that will allow the core game to convert players into paying customers. After all, the gap between Core and HOT is gigantic without Season 1 and Season 2. The least can do is bundle Season 2 with purchase of an expansion, that can shorten the gap.

Any sales for HoT at that point are because of PoF drawing them in. If HoT was actually selling well, they would have had no reason to bundle it for free, especially with Steam incoming, unless you want to say PoF wasn't selling, thus they had to bundle it because people weren't playing the current releases.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free. How much of that was because of the lack of HOT sales is anyone's guess. Fun part is, the core game (Heroic Edition) was still ranked in top 50 on Amazon when the game went free to play in August 2015, which was a higher rank than the Elder Scrolls Online (a game that launched way more recently than Guild Wars 2) in the same month. Yet they made it free.

As for the drop, as someone who tracks activity, I can confirm activity dropped during that period (imgur), so it wasn't simply due to HoT. Also, see the image.

I don't see a drop in users posting on the forums and the drop in reddit activity isn't in any way similar to the drop in revenue, but this just proves HOT going free did affect their revenue by a lot.

What HoT ultimately cost them was potential.

Not really. That potential was lost from January 2013 to August 2015, in 31 months the game sold only 2 million copies and nearly disappeared from the gaming radar. That wasn't thanks to HOT

[robertthebard.8150]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it doesi stand by my first commentyes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Every map in the game is built for replayability. Every race has it's own starter zone, and with level scaling, every map will be played for events, or map completion, or to fill gaps between story levels. It's been built that way from the ground up. It's also why there are variations on the racial stories, and choices such as which order you join, how you handle quests, etc. If you want to see them all, w/out just searching them up on youtube, you're going to replay the game.

They clearly took some feedback, but they also clearly didn't just listen to the "hardcore" crowd. If they had, we'd have people peeking through our virtual windows to see what gear you're sporting before they decide to let you in their group. Had a player yesterday trying to claim that a WB group in a level 40-50 map required Legendary gear to complete. They clearly didn't listen to that player...

For all that, I didn't find PoF or HoT all that "hard". It's not difficulty, one way or the other, too easy or too hard, that has me floating games, it's time to spend playing, new stuff, old stuff that starts calling my name, etc. I'm rocking about 2 TBs of games right now, just on the PC, and another one on my xbox. Going to be fun when I get my Series X and have to decide what's getting installed, and what isn't... But if one can get a handle on basic mechanics, and understands that some of OW content is intended for at least casual group play, they'll be fine.

[Sobx.1758]

@Healix.5819 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:What am I not understanding here? If people didn't "buy the game" then they weren't plating anything else than core content, right?

Yes. There was no major drive to buy HoT.

How can someone say that they didn't like HoT before they bought it? Even moreso in the light of this thread which is actually the part that should be taken into consideration. You can't possibly know that content will be too hard/easy/repetitive/whatever right away before buying the expansion and playing it. Even moreso during the time near the release.There was as much of a "drive to buy it" as there is for nearly any other expansion for any other mmorpg. Why wouldn't there be?

Time between HoT and PoF = ~2yearsTime before PoF and now =~3 years and from what I remember, but won't bother to check to be sure, currently buying PoF is buying both expansions, so it's a better deal than anything before. Doubt these facts are irrelevant, so it's not exactly surprising if it went on to be more beneficial.

To clarify, in the same time span, PoF made more, a lot more if you normalize it (I didn't). I was being generous to HoT and included the influx from its nearly year-long advertising campaign, which makes both roughly equal. After HoT's ~2 year mark, PoF continued on to have higher sales that are still strong today. They wouldn't have been able to pull off 4 years without an expansion back in 2015, or shift focus to side projects, so blame PoF for that.

Any sources?

Also obviously if someone comes to gw2 after the release of both expansions and asks ANYONE "which one expansion should I buy", the answer is clear. One has mounts, the other doesn't. But that's only known and clear AFTER we got both expansions, which I'm pretty sure also influence the potential pularity differences. That said, I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the thread that claims "HoT is too hard". I highly doubt any olf those sales or stats you're talking about are influenced by OP's complaint.

Might also be some freak accident that happened specifically to me, but I never saw that huge pre-HoT campaign. Actually I saw more ads after the release of PoF -and that's not even right after its release. Again, having some specific sources would be nice, but in my case I don't have anything other than personal experience here.

Is it partially because they've adjusted their expectations for the release of second expansion after the realise of the first one or...?Also regardless of the rest of the content if I'd have a choice with limited information between the expansion that adds gliding and the expansion that adds mounts -including the ones that fly- then... are we going to pretend there's even a contest here? :D Still I don't think that's exactly relevant to the difficulty levels of either of the expansions.

HoT was the first expansion and had huge expectations with the f2p launch. For context, sales were initially predicted to be 3x what they were, rivaling the original launch. The question is, what happened to going f2p? Normally it'd cause a spike, but it wasn't even noticeable, probably because there was no real downside to only playing for free. If PoF was first or HoT had the huge draw of mounts, it could have gone very differently, however, the lack of a traditional experience will always be GW2's greatest flaw.

I'll sound like a broken record, I know, But any sources for those stats/expectations etc?Also "lack of a traditional experience" is quite the opposite for me and I'm sure for many other players as well. You seem to be going with your personal preferences here and trying to stick them to "the majority".Another thing I apparently have to keep asking: how is this relevant to OPs complaint? Did you/we just drift into an overal "expansion sale differences based on whatever I think was the case" or... what am I missing here?

Sure, but how many players kept leaving anyways even before HoT? How does it compare to the post HoT numbers? Was core really so successfull and then "that super hard HoT came and destroyed everything"?

HoT was initially drawing people in leading up to its launch - sales stabilized and saw a slight increase the quarter HoT was announced. After launch, it was as if HoT never happened - they lost an equal amount to what they had gained (post-HoT is likely where sales would have been if they continued with the living world instead).

It would be nice if you stopped cutting out your previous posts so it would be easier to keep up with context of the answers. What I was responding was:"Once you lose people, you're only able to get a portion of them back, so regardless of the reason why people quit, there's no debating that it affected PoF."

So my question remains unanswered: "Sure, but how many players kept leaving anyways even before HoT? How does it compare to the post HoT numbers? Was core really so successfull and then "that super hard HoT came and destroyed everything"?"

You're trying to pin the dip in sales or weak sales specifically to hot. People also left before hot (for whatever reason they wanted, probably irrelevant), which also influenced its sales. Somehow you're avoiding this fact and keep saying that "PoF might have sold more copies if the game didn't lose players after HoT". Well... HoT migh have sold more copies if the game didn't lose players during core. A slight increase before the expansion seems logical and based on hype. Watch the sales of most suddenly spiking games, which happens because of the hype and compare their playerbase 1-2-3 months later.

"If the amount of content in the first expansion would consist of TWO expansions instead, it would most likely be a greater success!" -well... you don't say. If gw2 at release was at today's state and be f2p, it would also most likely have more players and kept them for a longer time. I don't understand what is this supposed to show?

HoT and PoF are effectively half expansions. ArenaNet acknowledged that when they chose to sell PoF as such. The first expansion should be a big deal and they wasted it, just like they'll no doubt waste the Steam launch.

I'll need some solid source on this too.1st of all because if there's no source then there's absolutely nothing you can base this claim on (but I believe you have some -which is why I'd like to see it)And secondly because I'd like to see the exact phrasing of that. I also wonder if it's not about their releases of LS, which are free as long as you're logging in during the relevant period, which could be taken as some staggered sort-of-still-expansion content release.

The claim about increasing level cap is a weird one to me, seems like it's based on absolutely nothing. It also changes nothing about the difficulty level that could -and most probably would- easly be scaled appropriately, so pretty sure it doesn't change anything in relation to this thread (and subsequently "topics like this one" would keep appearing exactly like now -but this time you'd also have new ones with "YOU'VE PROMISED NO GEAR TREADMILL!"). So... for now I disagree.

Fun fact, they originally talked about increasing the level cap in expansions and ascended gear was intended to become more powerful over time, which was only continued in China. The game wasn't not supposed to have a treadmill, it was just supposed to be stretched out, rather than every few months, which they now do with masteries.

Hey, you know the drill by now, I'd like to read some sources, hopefully not in chinese :p

If HoT would have increased the level cap, the first half of HoT would have been a lot easier

How can you know that? You understand that the current difficulty level might -and most probably is- the desired lategame difficulty of that content, so it might as well just make the initial impact even worse? If they wanted it to be easier... it would be easier with or without level cap increase and gear treadmill. Are you saying anet went with the "oopsie, we accidentally made it harder than core but... you know what... lets leave it like this!". As much as it's a fun little idea, it seems just entirely false.

and players could have been given an appropriate set of gear, rather than coming out of the personal story with a set of rares and nothing else.

Again: if anet wanted to give stronger gear after personal story... they would. With or without raising cap+gear treadmill. Seems like your wishful thinking to me.

Proper vertical progression also changes the perspective - you just need better gear and will eventually succeed, vs you may never succeed.

Well, "you" (as in people like OP) just need better understanding of the game with semi(!!)-coherent build and you're all set. Raising level and getting stronger gear while the enemies also get proportionally stronger changes nothing and people should start understanding how pointless that illusion is.

[Atomos.7593]

I think what we can all agree on is that both the HoT and PoF expansions had good features that the other did not. I would like to see more frequent expansions in the future, rather than living world content, since I generally find the quality of them to be superior to living world, and they seem to attract more purchases with money than giving out rushed free content does. This in turn leads to a more financially sound and populated game in the long run (without causing an uproar from the crowd that wants everything for free).

[battledrone.8315]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Honestly it seems like that some players want to auto-attack everything to death with 1 skill so that they can finish the story in 6 hours of gameplay and not touch the game again for a couple of months. IMO catering to these types of players is not healthy for longer-term player population and success.

yea, wow and wildstar totally proves that point. and swtor. and dcuo. and EVE. even STO arent afraid to swing the nerfhammer.steam players in swtor actually get their first companion at lvl 1 now.

The so called casual players that purchase things for a few days and then disappear once their solo fix has been satisfied doesn't seem to be helping the MMO market either, so there's not much point in trying to satisfy them other than a quick short-term profit that will mean little in the long run.

it is not only to fill the pockets of the devs, but also the GAME. when an mmo starts feeling empty, the game will go into a death spiralhaving a good levelling experience is like having a good kindergarden. it will repopulate the game with well motivated players.and NOT having one will do the opposite.

That's true. It's a shame the core game offers such a poor leveling experience. It's one of GW2's biggest failings.

can you name one mmo, that has a better levelling experience? the only one, that was ever close, was wow, and they have butchered their own game too.note how fast they went down the drain after they stopped making new classes and low level content

[battledrone.8315]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it doesi stand by my first commentyes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Every map in the game is built for replayability. Every race has it's own starter zone, and with level scaling, every map will be played for events, or map completion, or to fill gaps between story levels. It's been built that way from the ground up. It's also why there are variations on the racial stories, and choices such as which order you join, how you handle quests, etc. If you want to see them all, w/out just searching them up on youtube, you're going to replay the game.

They clearly took some feedback, but they also clearly didn't just listen to the "hardcore" crowd. If they had, we'd have people peeking through our virtual windows to see what gear you're sporting before they decide to let you in their group. Had a player yesterday trying to claim that a WB group in a level 40-50 map required Legendary gear to complete. They clearly didn't listen to that player...

For all that, I didn't find PoF or HoT all that "hard". It's not difficulty, one way or the other, too easy or too hard, that has me floating games, it's time to spend playing, new stuff, old stuff that starts calling my name, etc. I'm rocking about 2 TBs of games right now, just on the PC, and another one on my xbox. Going to be fun when I get my Series X and have to decide what's getting installed, and what isn't... But if one can get a handle on basic mechanics, and understands that some of OW content is intended for at least casual group play, they'll be fine.

what? how? all the lower level hearts are NOT repeatable.

[battledrone.8315]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it does

Everything has events that loop/repeat themselves "every so often", not to mention every or almost every map having a meta event, which means all of them are made for "replayability" and connected with level scaling that was never even the question. What exactly are you "proving" right now by writing content has replayability and how EXACTLY does it change what I wrote and what you're apparently answering to?Be more specific if you want to pretend you have a point, thanks.

i stand by my first comment

Great, you have nothing to say, but for the sake of not admitting you're wrong you'll write "I stand by my first comment". I already know a few people on this forum exactly like this. You "standing by your comment" doesn't make it true. Start targetting what you're answering to and use more detail.

yes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Listened who exactly? And from where? And what are you basing that claim on? Give me sources, your idea about the situation, your imaginative scenarios that """"took place"""" -give me literally anything else than just another one of your

empty

claims, to which I specifically answer and then after you have nothing of value to say you back off to saying... "I STAND BY WHAT I SAID!".It's great that you're sticking to your guns, but if you have nothing to respond with then it's clear you're wrong. And you should understand that even without admitting it directly. Now start answering with much more details AND FACTS than you did until now.

i am so tired of events and metas, they are either zerg blobs, or simply waiting to become a zerg. you can literally just run around and tag mobs.they are simply the new versions of champ trains. people are there for the shinies, nothing more.

[battledrone.8315]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Honestly it seems like that some players want to auto-attack everything to death with 1 skill so that they can finish the story in 6 hours of gameplay and not touch the game again for a couple of months. IMO catering to these types of players is not healthy for longer-term player population and success.

yea, wow and wildstar totally proves that point. and swtor. and dcuo. and EVE. even STO arent afraid to swing the nerfhammer.steam players in swtor actually get their first companion at lvl 1 now.

The so called casual players that purchase things for a few days and then disappear once their solo fix has been satisfied doesn't seem to be helping the MMO market either, so there's not much point in trying to satisfy them other than a quick short-term profit that will mean little in the long run.

it is not only to fill the pockets of the devs, but also the GAME. when an mmo starts feeling empty, the game will go into a death spiralhaving a good levelling experience is like having a good kindergarden. it will repopulate the game with well motivated players.and NOT having one will do the opposite.

The solo casual players that only play for the story and then leave barely make any MMO seem more populated, especially when there are solo instances that must be completed. I'm sure the players that get involved in the open world through events such as meta events in HoT have a much greater impact on the perceived player population in the game.

yep, the key word is "perceived". cramming 40 solo drivers into one bus would have the same effect. so of course group play looks more populated.but the shorter solo missions are still the bread and butter of mmos, if they fail, then the whole game suffers

I'm also sure that people who group up (or pseudo-group) to do harder content make up a big (probably larger) proportion of the game population than the purely solo players that play for only the story. Unless you have the evidence to prove otherwise of course.

look at the number of solo missions . core was build after years of planning and market research. i doubt they would had went through all that trouble,unless they had VERY good reasons for it. and if core hadnt performed, this game would had collapsed many years ago.

[battledrone.8315]

@Atomos.7593 said:I think what we can all agree on is that both the HoT and PoF expansions had good features that the other did not. I would like to see more frequent expansions in the future, rather than living world content, since I generally find the quality of them to be superior to living world, and they seem to attract more purchases with money than giving out rushed free content does. This in turn leads to a more financially sound and populated game in the long run (without causing an uproar from the crowd that wants everything for free).

nope, hot was garbage. pof was a little better, but certainly not a place i would like to stick around. if there was some kind of progression in corei would return to it, but there isnt.

[Atomos.7593]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Honestly it seems like that some players want to auto-attack everything to death with 1 skill so that they can finish the story in 6 hours of gameplay and not touch the game again for a couple of months. IMO catering to these types of players is not healthy for longer-term player population and success.

yea, wow and wildstar totally proves that point. and swtor. and dcuo. and EVE. even STO arent afraid to swing the nerfhammer.steam players in swtor actually get their first companion at lvl 1 now.

The so called casual players that purchase things for a few days and then disappear once their solo fix has been satisfied doesn't seem to be helping the MMO market either, so there's not much point in trying to satisfy them other than a quick short-term profit that will mean little in the long run.

it is not only to fill the pockets of the devs, but also the GAME. when an mmo starts feeling empty, the game will go into a death spiralhaving a good levelling experience is like having a good kindergarden. it will repopulate the game with well motivated players.and NOT having one will do the opposite.

The solo casual players that only play for the story and then leave barely make any MMO seem more populated, especially when there are solo instances that must be completed. I'm sure the players that get involved in the open world through events such as meta events in HoT have a much greater impact on the perceived player population in the game.

yep, the key word is "perceived". cramming 40 solo drivers into one bus would have the same effect. so of course group play looks more populated.but the shorter solo missions are still the bread and butter of mmos, if they fail, then the whole game suffers

I'm also sure that people who group up (or pseudo-group) to do harder content make up a big (probably larger) proportion of the game population than the purely solo players that play for only the story. Unless you have the evidence to prove otherwise of course.

look at the number of solo missions . core was build after years of planning and market research. i doubt they would had went through all that trouble,unless they had VERY good reasons for it. and if core hadnt performed, this game would had collapsed many years ago.

I highly doubt core was at all successful because of the solo missions in the story. The story was very poor even by MMO standards. I know for certain that me and everyone else that I know didn't stick around in the game because of the core game story.

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I think what we can all agree on is that both the HoT and PoF expansions had good features that the other did not. I would like to see more frequent expansions in the future, rather than living world content, since I generally find the quality of them to be superior to living world, and they seem to attract more purchases with money than giving out rushed free content does. This in turn leads to a more financially sound and populated game in the long run (without causing an uproar from the crowd that wants everything for free).

nope, hot was garbage. pof was a little better, but certainly not a place i would like to stick around. if there was some kind of progression in corei would return to it, but there isnt.

For me I found the opposite: pof was garbage, and hot was a bit better. I have absolutely zero reason to return to pof now that I have completed the story, unlocked mounts and completed masteries. The maps in PoF are desolate and boring, and same goes for the events in it.

[robertthebard.8150]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it doesi stand by my first commentyes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Every map in the game is built for replayability. Every race has it's own starter zone, and with level scaling, every map will be played for events, or map completion, or to fill gaps between story levels. It's been built that way from the ground up. It's also why there are variations on the racial stories, and choices such as which order you join, how you handle quests, etc. If you want to see them all, w/out just searching them up on youtube, you're going to replay the game.

They clearly took some feedback, but they also clearly didn't just listen to the "hardcore" crowd. If they had, we'd have people peeking through our virtual windows to see what gear you're sporting before they decide to let you in their group. Had a player yesterday trying to claim that a WB group in a level 40-50 map required Legendary gear to complete. They clearly didn't listen to that player...

For all that, I didn't find PoF or HoT all that "hard". It's not difficulty, one way or the other, too easy or too hard, that has me floating games, it's time to spend playing, new stuff, old stuff that starts calling my name, etc. I'm rocking about 2 TBs of games right now, just on the PC, and another one on my xbox. Going to be fun when I get my Series X and have to decide what's getting installed, and what isn't... But if one can get a handle on basic mechanics, and understands that some of OW content is intended for at least casual group play, they'll be fine.

what? how? all the lower level hearts are NOT repeatable.

Not on one character. But you can run alts through all of them. Replay-ability isn't limited to one character.

[maddoctor.2738]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Honestly it seems like that some players want to auto-attack everything to death with 1 skill so that they can finish the story in 6 hours of gameplay and not touch the game again for a couple of months. IMO catering to these types of players is not healthy for longer-term player population and success.

yea, wow and wildstar totally proves that point. and swtor. and dcuo. and EVE. even STO arent afraid to swing the nerfhammer.steam players in swtor actually get their first companion at lvl 1 now.

The so called casual players that purchase things for a few days and then disappear once their solo fix has been satisfied doesn't seem to be helping the MMO market either, so there's not much point in trying to satisfy them other than a quick short-term profit that will mean little in the long run.

it is not only to fill the pockets of the devs, but also the GAME. when an mmo starts feeling empty, the game will go into a death spiralhaving a good levelling experience is like having a good kindergarden. it will repopulate the game with well motivated players.and NOT having one will do the opposite.

That's true. It's a shame the core game offers such a poor leveling experience. It's one of GW2's biggest failings.

can you name one mmo, that has a better levelling experience?

That's an invalid question because other mmos are not Guild Wars 2. The real question is to find which parts of the leveling experience are bad in this game and fix them. For example, Battle for Claw Island, Return to Claw Island and Forging the Pact are all horribly designed instances. Hundreds of mobs chilling with friendly NPCs, pretending to fight, although they have massively inflated health pools and do nearly no damage. They are boring/tedious instances which are supposed to be emotional (losing your mentor, taking revenge, creating the Pact) but the gameplay doesn't really help. And those boss fights, how to make a giant health sponge worse? Oh right, add FEAR in its skills.

Then we have the instances in Orr, which were created with the expectation the player would finish all 5 racial storylines AND all 3 Order storylines (ok maybe not the Priory story) before reaching that point. Otherwise the story becomes a convoluted mess of NPCs that you don't know, but your character acts as if they do. Then they die, or someone close to them does, and the impact is nothing because unlike your character, the player doesn't feel anything since they never met these people before. This isn't a problem only in Orr, but it's there that becomes much more apparent.

The first can be solved by overhauling the fights and mobs to be more exciting. The second cannot be fixed without redoing parts of the story, which will probably never happen. It's good that you recognize the importance of a good leveling experience though

[AliamRationem.5172]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it doesi stand by my first commentyes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Every map in the game is built for replayability. Every race has it's own starter zone, and with level scaling, every map will be played for events, or map completion, or to fill gaps between story levels. It's been built that way from the ground up. It's also why there are variations on the racial stories, and choices such as which order you join, how you handle quests, etc. If you want to see them all, w/out just searching them up on youtube, you're going to replay the game.

They clearly took some feedback, but they also clearly didn't just listen to the "hardcore" crowd. If they had, we'd have people peeking through our virtual windows to see what gear you're sporting before they decide to let you in their group. Had a player yesterday trying to claim that a WB group in a level 40-50 map required Legendary gear to complete. They clearly didn't listen to that player...

For all that, I didn't find PoF or HoT all that "hard". It's not difficulty, one way or the other, too easy or too hard, that has me floating games, it's time to spend playing, new stuff, old stuff that starts calling my name, etc. I'm rocking about 2 TBs of games right now, just on the PC, and another one on my xbox. Going to be fun when I get my Series X and have to decide what's getting installed, and what isn't... But if one can get a handle on basic mechanics, and understands that some of OW content is intended for at least casual group play, they'll be fine.

what? how? all the lower level hearts are NOT repeatable.

Not on one character. But you can run alts through all of them. Replay-ability isn't limited to one character.

True. But when we talk about replay value, we're talking about content people actually enjoy. Hearts in the core game are more like watching paint dry than playing a game. If I were a potato I might enjoy it, I guess? I don't know...

[Ayakaru.6583]

I consider myself a casual gamer, yet i had no trouble with pre-nerf HoT.Post-nerf HoT had become incredibly easy, where the only difficulty left was getting a cohesive group together to do the content with.If they nerf it again even quaggans can survive in HoT

[Sobx.1758]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it does

Everything has events that loop/repeat themselves "every so often", not to mention every or almost every map having a meta event, which means all of them are made for "replayability" and connected with level scaling that was never even the question. What exactly are you "proving" right now by writing content has replayability and how EXACTLY does it change what I wrote and what you're apparently answering to?Be more specific if you want to pretend you have a point, thanks.

i stand by my first comment

Great, you have nothing to say, but for the sake of not admitting you're wrong you'll write "I stand by my first comment". I already know a few people on this forum exactly like this. You "standing by your comment" doesn't make it true. Start targetting what you're answering to and use more detail.

yes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Listened who exactly? And from where? And what are you basing that claim on? Give me sources, your idea about the situation, your imaginative scenarios that """"took place"""" -give me literally anything else than just another one of your

empty

claims, to which I specifically answer and then after you have nothing of value to say you back off to saying... "I STAND BY WHAT I SAID!".It's great that you're sticking to your guns, but if you have nothing to respond with then it's clear you're wrong. And you should understand that even without admitting it directly. Now start answering with much more details AND FACTS than you did until now.

i am so tired of events and metas, they are either zerg blobs, or simply waiting to become a zerg. you can literally just run around and tag mobs.they are simply the new versions of champ trains. people are there for the shinies, nothing more.

I understand. But you "being tired of something" doesn't mean it's not made for replayability, so I don't see how that changes anything? And you seem to understand that playing the same thing over and over again starts being boring, but somehow don't understand how people get bored with content that's way below their characters "power levels" when they can utilize it even partially correctly?That's pretty much the point here: the game isn't too hard, it's the core content that's too easy. If you think otherwise, you actually need to understand how the game works and you won't have any problems with going through expansions.Also yesterday I've kind-of-randomly went for the late tarir meta when other instances were already full and we succeeded without a reset while having ~5-8 people per side. Zerg fest? Yeah, that's how this game works in many places which was and is the case in core maps. But you don't exactly need zerg in most of the cases.

[kharmin.7683]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Mad Queen Malafide.7512 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:

when a player choses to use the same build through the whole core game, its pretty safe to say, that they LOVE that build.even worse, it is the build, that they KNOW how to play. changing the rules so late in the game is sheer stupidity, and its going tokitten off most players. they chose that role for a good reason. and if it is wrong, then it has to be so from the start

First of all, that last line was not in my original quote, so I presume it was meant to be the first line of your argument (corrected above). You may have made a minor mistake when assembling your post, so that one of your sentences got added to the end of your quote of my post. Regardless...

To address your argument darling, I think it is fair to say that most players don't choose a role when they play the game. They put together some skills that they like, and then play through most of the game with that build. Since the core game barely challenges anyone, it is quite possible for that build to be a really REALLY bad build. Even if it is a build they "know how to play" and "love", it might simply be terrible. So when such a player then tries HoT, they run into a brick wall.

Before the release of HoT, these forums were full of people asking for better and more challenging combat. They weren't wrong, the core combat is pretty shallow and boring to be honest, mostly due to lack of interesting mechanics. A lot of those concerns were addressed in HoT and further refined in PoF and Living Story. Breakbars became a thing, bosses received phases, enemies received attacks and abilities that heavily punish players when they hit. Basically a huge overhaul of GW2's combat system.

I think this change was badly needed to keep players interested, but it does mark a sudden change in difficulty. Especially players who didn't experience Living Story season 1 and 2 will be ill prepared for HoT throws at them. Plus HoT also seems more designed with groups of players in mind, rather than a solo experience. The tutorials of the game weren't updated to reflect these changes either, making HoT into this brick wall of difficulty for lots of players. It's understandable.

"putting some skills together" is acually how you make a character in this game, no? and dont get me started on the breakbar.yep, they listened to the content locusts, and they have been chasing dogs tail ever since.

They listened to people that actually want to understand game's meechanics, not some "content locust" like you keep calling it. If you want to smile at dying mobs after you hold 1 key then stay in starting zones or just core maps in general and continue being happy.

"putting some skills together" is how you make a character in this game, sure -which doesn't mean that any combination of traits and skills is a coherent one, not sure what you're trying to argue here. All you're showing is your lack of understanding of the basics of the game. Maybe if you've put in that direction HALF of the effort you're showing on the forum to complain, you wouldn't actually have a reason to complain.

Now that I think about it... maybe that's your issue? Maybe you don't want solutions, you just want to keep complaining instead?

Also just a reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

if they can get to end game content in a few days, then they ARE content locusts, no dev team could ever keep up with them

No, they're not and it has nothing to do with this thread in the first place.

they literally devoured YEARS of work in a few days, and then they start complaining

???Wrong thread? Or what's exactly your point here?

listening to their demands is a sure way to make it into another niche mmo

What "demands"? You think anet consulted anyone before/while making expansions? Stop with your silly baseless claims.

---

And another reminder that you forgot to answer some questions about what you mean here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1343877/#Comment_1343877

hot was made for "replayability", so it doesi stand by my first commentyes, they clearly listened to the hardcores, when designing hot, why are you even trying to to argue this?

Every map in the game is built for replayability. Every race has it's own starter zone, and with level scaling, every map will be played for events, or map completion, or to fill gaps between story levels. It's been built that way from the ground up. It's also why there are variations on the racial stories, and choices such as which order you join, how you handle quests, etc. If you want to see them all, w/out just searching them up on youtube, you're going to replay the game.

They clearly took some feedback, but they also clearly didn't just listen to the "hardcore" crowd. If they had, we'd have people peeking through our virtual windows to see what gear you're sporting before they decide to let you in their group. Had a player yesterday trying to claim that a WB group in a level 40-50 map required Legendary gear to complete. They clearly didn't listen to that player...

For all that, I didn't find PoF or HoT all that "hard". It's not difficulty, one way or the other, too easy or too hard, that has me floating games, it's time to spend playing, new stuff, old stuff that starts calling my name, etc. I'm rocking about 2 TBs of games right now, just on the PC, and another one on my xbox. Going to be fun when I get my Series X and have to decide what's getting installed, and what isn't... But if one can get a handle on basic mechanics, and understands that some of OW content is intended for at least casual group play, they'll be fine.

what? how? all the lower level hearts are NOT repeatable.

Not on one character. But you can run alts through all of them. Replay-ability isn't limited to one character.

True. But when we talk about replay value, we're talking about content people actually enjoy. Hearts in the core game are more like watching paint dry than playing a game. If I were a potato I might enjoy it, I guess? I don't know...

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't speak for everyone. We don't know how many people do enjoy said content. I'm guessing that if people didn't enjoy doing heart quests then there wouldn't have been such clamoring for repeatability. /shrug

[maddoctor.2738]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:True. But when we talk about replay value, we're talking about content people actually enjoy. Hearts in the core game are more like watching paint dry than playing a game. If I were a potato I might enjoy it, I guess? I don't know...

Although hearts are painful to repeat for map completion on extra characters, and I can understand how dull some might look, but I don't get the hate over hearts in general. Let's say you just started playing, you finished the tutorial and you are a level 1 character in the first zone. Without hearts you'd have to get lucky, events spawn around so you can level you up, otherwise you'd end up dead while fighting mobs 10+ levels above yourself. Or even worse, you are forced to grind random mobs around like in all those other mmorpgs. Awful experience. If I'm not mistaken back during the Gamescon demo (in 2010) the game did not have any hearts, this caused the majority of players to move aimlessly around with nothing to offer them guidance, it was a terrible experience and it's why hearts were added to the game.

If you are level 80, you are playing in the expansions, finishing dungeon, fractals, raids, pvp and wvw, the idea of having to go back to a level 1-15 zone to complete some hearts to get map completion is something that I don't find very enjoyable, and it's why I don't have an insane number of completions, fortunately you get 2 gifts per completion, which meant I got plenty for the legendary items I wanted to craft. And outside map completion, which I get it, hearts are the reason many hate map completion, hearts serve a very good purpose, giving guidance to players on what to do next.

[yann.1946]

@Healix.5819 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:What am I not understanding here? If people didn't "buy the game" then they weren't plating anything else than core content, right?

Yes. There was no major drive to buy HoT.

Time between HoT and PoF = ~2yearsTime before PoF and now =~3 years and from what I remember, but won't bother to check to be sure, currently buying PoF is buying both expansions, so it's a better deal than anything before. Doubt these facts are irrelevant, so it's not exactly surprising if it went on to be more beneficial.

To clarify, in the same time span, PoF made more, a lot more if you normalize it (I didn't). I was being generous to HoT and included the influx from its nearly year-long advertising campaign, which makes both roughly equal. After HoT's ~2 year mark, PoF continued on to have higher sales that are still strong today. They wouldn't have been able to pull off 4 years without an expansion back in 2015, or shift focus to side projects, so blame PoF for that.

Is it partially because they've adjusted their expectations for the release of second expansion after the realise of the first one or...?Also regardless of the rest of the content if I'd have a choice with limited information between the expansion that adds gliding and the expansion that adds mounts -including the ones that fly- then... are we going to pretend there's even a contest here? :D Still I don't think that's exactly relevant to the difficulty levels of either of the expansions.

HoT was the first expansion and had huge expectations with the f2p launch. For context, sales were initially predicted to be 3x what they were, rivaling the original launch. The question is, what happened to going f2p? Normally it'd cause a spike, but it wasn't even noticeable, probably because there was no real downside to only playing for free. If PoF was first or HoT had the huge draw of mounts, it could have gone very differently, however, the lack of a traditional experience will always be GW2's greatest flaw.

Sure, but how many players kept leaving anyways even before HoT? How does it compare to the post HoT numbers? Was core really so successfull and then "that super hard HoT came and destroyed everything"?

HoT was initially drawing people in leading up to its launch - sales stabilized and saw a slight increase the quarter HoT was announced. After launch, it was as if HoT never happened - they lost an equal amount to what they had gained (post-HoT is likely where sales would have been if they continued with the living world instead).

"If the amount of content in the first expansion would consist of TWO expansions instead, it would most likely be a greater success!" -well... you don't say. If gw2 at release was at today's state and be f2p, it would also most likely have more players and kept them for a longer time. I don't understand what is this supposed to show?

HoT and PoF are effectively half expansions. ArenaNet acknowledged that when they chose to sell PoF as such. The first expansion should be a big deal and they wasted it, just like they'll no doubt waste the Steam launch.

The claim about increasing level cap is a weird one to me, seems like it's based on absolutely nothing. It also changes nothing about the difficulty level that could -and most probably would- easly be scaled appropriately, so pretty sure it doesn't change anything in relation to this thread (and subsequently "topics like this one" would keep appearing exactly like now -but this time you'd also have new ones with "YOU'VE PROMISED NO GEAR TREADMILL!"). So... for now I disagree.

Fun fact, they originally talked about increasing the level cap in expansions and ascended gear was intended to become more powerful over time, which was only continued in China. The game wasn't not supposed to have a treadmill, it was just supposed to be stretched out, rather than every few months, which they now do with masteries.

If HoT would have increased the level cap, the first half of HoT would have been a lot easier and players could have been given an appropriate set of gear, rather than coming out of the personal story with a set of rares and nothing else. Proper vertical progression also changes the perspective - you just need better gear and will eventually succeed, vs you may never succeed.

 

---

 

 

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You have a source for that? That specifically stated players

quitting

the game was the reason for reduced revenue?

Them specifically stating that? No. You have to read between the lines. They simply stated that there was gap between what HoT offered and what people wanted. Now look at it from a business perspective - they lost millions of potential customers - what would you do? They wanted the next expansion out ASAP. If core was costing them so much, they should have at least made it a new campaign, making that the new core, but instead they will no doubt re-launch on Steam with nothing changed and repeat all of the past complaints.

Are you forgetting that HOT was selling when POF launched? When they bundled HOT for free with purchase of POF, their revenue tanked to its lowest point ever. Was that just a coincidence? Or it was a fact that during the POF era, HOT was still selling, that 2 year old "failure" still contributing to the game in a meaningful way, considering the great revenue drop when they made it free.

Any sales for HoT at that point are because of PoF drawing them in. If HoT was actually selling well, they would have had no reason to bundle it for free, especially with Steam incoming, unless you want to say PoF wasn't selling, thus they had to bundle it because people weren't playing the current releases.

As for the drop, as someone who tracks activity, I can confirm activity dropped during that period (

imgur

), so it wasn't simply due to HoT. Also, see the image.

Yes but the follow up question is: did the population drop of HOT affected POF sales more, or less than the population drop caused by the Core game? Which drop affected the game more, the drop due to it being too casual (core) or the drop due to it being too hardcore (HOT)

That's not comparable, unless you want to pretend what it would have been like if HoT was the core game and PoF was HoT.

What HoT ultimately cost them was potential. MMOs only have a few of these big chances - the first expansion, going F2P, launching on Steam and launching on consoles/mobile.

A reason to bundle hot with pof could just be so masteries from hot can be used in new maps (like the mushrooms for example).

[Healix.5819]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'd like to see the exact wording. To read between actual lines and not what is claimed on a forum.

It's no longer hosted by NCSoft - 4Q2015 conference call. Here's summaries 4Q2015, 1Q2016

Now look at it from a business perspective - they lost millions of potential customers - what would you do?

They lost a lot of those customers a very long time before the launch of HOT though.

To keep this short, wait for Steam to see a repeat of the events of 2015.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

 

 

---

 

 

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:What am I not understanding here? If people didn't "buy the game" then they weren't plating anything else than core content, right?

Yes. There was no major drive to buy HoT.

There was as much of a "drive to buy it" as there is for nearly any other expansion for any other mmorpg. Why wouldn't there be?

What did HoT offer? What did PoF offer? What does WoW offer? Besides more content, what strong drive is there to buy the expansions? Simply put, if you didn't leave core, what would make you want to buy each expansion? Traditionally, expansions are required to keep up, makes old content accessible and generally offers new toys for everyone play with. HoT offered nothing truly important; elites weren't for everyone. PoF forever changed the game with mounts.

To clarify, in the same time span, PoF made more, a lot more if you normalize it (I didn't). I was being generous to HoT and included the influx from its nearly year-long advertising campaign, which makes both roughly equal. After HoT's ~2 year mark, PoF continued on to have higher sales that are still strong today. They wouldn't have been able to pull off 4 years without an expansion back in 2015, or shift focus to side projects, so blame PoF for that.

Any sources?

For calculations? Take a quick glance at the sales. For dates - HoT was announced in 1Q15, core stopped being sold in 2Q15, went free in 3Q15 and HoT launched in 4Q15 - PoF launched in the last week on 3Q17.

While here, wonder why 2019 was the weakest year to date? It was their first year of having only normal sales. 2020 is going to have the same problem, while 2021 will be up again due to Cantha.

That said, I'm not sure how any of this is relevant to the thread that claims "HoT is too hard".

It's not. I'm simply answering questions.

Might also be some freak accident that happened specifically to me, but I never saw that huge pre-HoT campaign.

See the Icebrood Saga? They did that for HoT, but bigger. HoT was initially revealed at the end of S2 and marketing began shortly after that (January 2015) - they did the

and continued on to E3/etc, where they mostly focused on raiding.

HoT was the first expansion and had huge expectations with the f2p launch. For context, sales were initially predicted to be 3x what they were, rivaling the original launch. The question is, what happened to going f2p? Normally it'd cause a spike, but it wasn't even noticeable, probably because there was no real downside to only playing for free. If PoF was first or HoT had the huge draw of mounts, it could have gone very differently, however, the lack of a traditional experience will always be GW2's greatest flaw.

I'll sound like a broken record, I know, But any sources for those stats/expectations etc?

HoT was expected to sell 2 million copies at launch and do as well as core, which was actually based on ArenaNet's past performance with GW1 (source). Expectations were halved prior to launch (source), which still weren't met.

HoT and PoF are effectively half expansions. ArenaNet acknowledged that when they chose to sell PoF as such. The first expansion should be a big deal and they wasted it, just like they'll no doubt waste the Steam launch.

I'll need some solid source on this too.

A source on the price of PoF? The backlash to HoT's price / amount of content resulted in PoF being $30.

Fun fact, they originally talked about increasing the level cap in expansions and ascended gear was intended to become more powerful over time, which was only continued in China. The game wasn't not supposed to have a treadmill, it was just supposed to be stretched out, rather than every few months, which they now do with masteries.

Hey, you know the drill by now, I'd like to read some sources, hopefully not in chinese :p

Before launch:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/tx1us/colin_johanssonwe_absolutely_would_increase_the/

After launch:https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-27-arenanet-holds-frank-reddit-debate-on-guild-wars-2-loot-grind

If HoT would have increased the level cap, the first half of HoT would have been a lot easier

How can you know that?

See core / every other game that does it. The beginning always eases people in (+free gear to normalize people) and inevitably allows people to rely on vertical progression to trivialize the content. HoT+ effectively throws people into the deep end, and don't forget, not everyone is dedicated to the game.

Proper vertical progression also changes the perspective - you just need better gear and will eventually succeed, vs you may never succeed.

Well, "you" (as in people like OP) just need better understanding of the game with semi(!!)-coherent build and you're all set.

To be clear, I find HoT easier than leveling through the core game.

Raising level and getting stronger gear while the enemies also get proportionally stronger changes nothing and people should start understanding how pointless that illusion is.

That only applies to the end. Prior to the end, it allows for an easier time and for people to do what they previously couldn't. Without it, some people are going to be permanently walled off from playing the game. Notice how they've been trickling in "horizontal" progression that makes your character stronger.

 

 

---

 

 

@yann.1946 said:A reason to bundle hot with pof could just be so masteries from hot can be used in new maps (like the mushrooms for example).

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Healix.5819 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:I'd like to see the exact wording. To read between actual lines and not what is claimed on a forum.

It's no longer hosted by NCSoft - 4Q2015 conference call. Here's summaries

4Q2015

,

1Q2016

So I was right.

According to Ncsoft the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok.The contribution of item sales to the total sales is much stronger than the box sales.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

I asked earlier:

There are some very simple questions, did HOT cause thousands/millions of players to quit the game?you saidAccording to NCSoft, yes.This isn't seen in what you posted. It's quite the opposite, HOT didn't cause players to quit the game. It was the CORE game that didn't force conversions. As I was saying all along. But thanks again for providing links that prove my side.

To keep this short, wait for Steam to see a repeat of the events of 2015.

Agreed. If they don't do massive changes to the Core game to make it more appealing to customers so they can convert, no expansion can help, no matter how good.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

[Atomos.7593]

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

[battledrone.8315]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Healix.5819 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I'd like to see the exact wording. To read between actual lines and not what is claimed on a forum.

It's no longer hosted by NCSoft - 4Q2015 conference call. Here's summaries

4Q2015

,

1Q2016

So I was right.

According to Ncsoft

the reason lies in the conversion from play for free to the paid expansion. This conversion rate is not as high as expected/hoped by NCsoft

. The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok. “ but it is more the issue of the conversion to the paid expansion pack that we have not seen the level (of sales) we have hoped

They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

The amount of gem sales and item sales versus active players is ok.The contribution of item sales to the total sales is much stronger than the box sales.

This reinforced my earlier argument about casual players and that the two phrases are mutually exclusive:Casuals pay the billsCasuals left due to HOTThese two cannot be accurate at the same time, as I was saying all along, thanks for proving it. Saving those links.

I asked earlier:

There are some very simple questions, did HOT cause thousands/millions of players to quit the game?you saidAccording to NCSoft, yes.This isn't seen in what you posted. It's quite the opposite, HOT didn't cause players to quit the game. It was the CORE game that didn't force conversions. As I was saying all along. But thanks again for providing links that prove my side.

To keep this short, wait for Steam to see a repeat of the events of 2015.

Agreed. If they don't do massive changes to the Core game to make it more appealing to customers so they can convert, no expansion can help, no matter how good.

Judging by the revenue drop when they made HOT free, it wasn't selling badly, they lost almost 1/3 of their revenue in Q4 2019, from 15k to 11k, when HOT went free.

It went back up to what it was.

Expansion announcements do that.

That was their reason for bundling it, but if HoT was actually selling well enough to cause a 25% drop in sales, they could have waited a lot longer and made a lot more off of Steam.

They weren't going to launch on Steam at that point. Remember when Icebrood Saga launched they were saying how they are fully committed to it, no expansions on the horizon. They expected the Icebrood Saga to be expansion-level revenue. They made HOT free so it would be easier for new players to join the Icebrood Saga. It obviously didn't work very well.

core is the bait to lure new players in, nothing more. a job it has done well, despite its flaws. expansions have to sell themselves, based on their own strengths.and that is where the problem is: they have so litte in common with core, that they dont appeal to most of the players theremmos normally try to unite the players, designing it to be split this way was a big mistake.

[battledrone.8315]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

[Atomos.7593]

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:They blame the conversion rate for their lack of revenue in Q4 2015, which means the core game going free hurt the game's revenue as I was saying all along. It's up to the CORE game to make conversions, not HOT. Or as I said in a previous post:A player that leaves right after the tutorial, isn't because of HOTA player that leaves before reaching level 50, isn't because of HOT

Also, worth noting that in both cases they say gem store sales are fine.

I think that this is a good point. Personally, I think that the core game going free was a mistake because overall the quality of it was not that great imo. I'm glad I decided to stick around and give HoT a chance because I found it much more replayable.

this doesnt make sense, if core was bad, going F2P should had been done sooner. they didnt because it was still selling.and if REPLAYABILTY was the big seller, then hot should had done far better, than it actually did

Compared to other MMOs that I have played core did actually go f2p very soon. You can't measure replayability simply by taking sales at a point in time soon after release. That is in fact the opposite of measuring any replayability.