Evading a stealth attack should reveal the attacker

[Terrorhuz.4695]

6 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

The same would go for every instant cast ability. They have "no counterplay beyond guessing". What should be the reward for dodgeing those?

The fact that they don't have 1s cd, so missing those has actually a degree of punishment other than "oh he dodged it, well I'mma just press the same button again lol"

[Bazsi.2734]

1 minute ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The fact that they don't have 1s cd, so missing those has actually a degree of punishment other than "oh he dodged it, well I'mma just press the same button again lol"

Well if you are one of those thieves that stack 6-10 seconds of stealth just to backstab someone, sure. I usually go for a 2 to 4 second duration, walk up to the enemy, and if I miss the stealth just drops and sadness takes over.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

"So i saw this thief speedhacking, anyways nerf stealth". 😄

This in particular is precious.
"How will I know for sure they're not cheating if I can't see them at all times?" 😞

3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Yeah thief in spvp cant duel. Personally I dunno why this topic is in spvp, you will dodge nothing when the thief +1s you and continues on their way to decap.

Makes way more sense in wvw where a thief can harass you for 5+ mins.

I went to wvw as thief, they basically can't play anywhere near a sentry or T3 structure that isnt theirs right now because the game by design auto reveals them at those points, and allows players to buy items that reveal them. 

Not to mention in that WvW sphere you can easily build to withstand thief harassment/carry a backup build you can switch to if you have the mobility to get OOC if you are insistent on roaming alone.

This makes even less sense when applied to wvw's current balance. 

[Gryxis.6950]

why are we treating instant cast skills the same as skills casted in stealth when the trade off for instant cast skills is already there in that they tend to be way weaker than most other skills.

Tho i'd agree that the whole stealth thing is not that much of a problem in pvp, but it is in wvw

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, Gryxis.6950 said:

 but it is in wvw

I need you to elaborate because I am seeing the opposite. See above. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Hotride.2187]

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I need you to elaborate because I am seeing the opposite. See above. 

I've been chased by a toughness stacking deadeye for 5 min after trying to kill it for 10 min. A salty thief is gonna chase you until the end of the world in my experience (that one got salty after I quit our duel after 8 min or so).

There are almost never reveal tactic structures at south camp and thereabouts (where I idle for duels). For throwing reveals... I guess. I throw them at condi thieves cause thats what they deserve. But a good thief uses mobility, not just stealth. 2 reveal tricks and you run out of supply, that is not enough either way.

For building tanky... I try not to. Its boring.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, Hotride.2187 said:

I've been chased by a toughness stacking deadeye for 5 min after trying to kill it for 10 min. A salty thief is gonna chase you until the end if the world in my experience.

ugh.  I assumed roaming thieves would run glass so they could beat someone up before they could get to a structure, but I guess that bunker nonsense applies to some of them. I wouldn't chalk that up to stealth personally though.

Quote

There are almost never reveal tactic structures at south camp and thereabouts (where I idle for duels). For throwing reveals... I guess. I throw them at condi thieves cause thats what they deserve.

Got it.

Also I see, that's why people viscerally hate my D/D thief.

Quote

For building tanky... I try not to. Its boring.

Understandable.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

I'd suggest being unable to contest capture points in a gamemode that's about contesting said points is a tradeoff.

If that's the best you can come up with, there's nothing more to be added. 

[Bazsi.2734]

2 hours ago, Gryxis.6950 said:

why are we treating instant cast skills the same as skills casted in stealth when the trade off for instant cast skills is already there in that they tend to be way weaker than most other skills.

Tho i'd agree that the whole stealth thing is not that much of a problem in pvp, but it is in wvw

Yeah, weak instant cast skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Wave . AoE damage, blast finisher, stacks modifiers, applies conditions, auto-crits for further synergies. 2 sec ICD because why the F not.
Lets venture into mesmer land!  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Distraction fully traited with domination. One button press is all it takes to DISABLE your healskill, and prep you for the incoming burst(vuln, quickness).
Or a fully traited https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal . (the skill's tooltip hardly fits on the screen) Much weakness, tradeoffs all over the place. 

Man I wish instant casts had some power in them. They can't even oneshot as things currently are!

Someone decided to make the argument that stealth attacks deserve a punish on being evaded BECAUSE they can be only anticipated, there is no telegraph. I just pointed out that this also applies to instant cast skills. It's a terrible idea, this was my way of pointing it out.

 

21 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

If that's the best you can come up with, there's nothing more to be added. 

I'm glad we agree on this. 😛

Edited April 27, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[CutesySylveon.8290]

19 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Nope, I do not waste braincells on storing useless info. There is only so many of them, and I keep losing them every day. I check accountnames before the match starts, especially in ranked. Trying to intimidate someone into backing off while you got nothing...  like a true thief main.

Can't hear you over the sound of all that backtracking.

 

19 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

You misused this informal fallacy for the third time. If you didn't, what's the distorted, false version of OP-s suggestion that I came up with? If you're ---Whinging. Whinging. Whinging.

That was painful to read. 

 

Stealth attacks by default have no counterplay beyond guessing and have no relevant CDs as they are determined by the accessibility of the builds stealth. Reveal on missed or blocked attacks is a reasonable drawback. 

[CutesySylveon.8290]

14 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Yeah, weak instant cast skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Wave . AoE damage, blast finisher, stacks modifiers, applies conditions, auto-crits for further synergies. 2 sec ICD because why the F not.

Base 30 second CD, not 2. That's the CD to use between ammo charges. You know this but you're being dishonest. Apples and oranges comparison. 

[Zekent.3652]

On 8/15/2020 at 12:55 PM, Justine.6351 said:

Sounds like rewarding random dodging to me.

Sounds like punishing stealth spam to me.

[Justine.6351]

2 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Sounds like punishing stealth spam to me.

A person can only go into stealth every 3 seconds if they land a hit. Not exactly spam.

[Morena.9312]

Spamming nades is oke. Spamming boons is also ok. Spamming condis is also ok. Spamming Aoe is also ok. But "spamming" stealth (in reality the thief has to do a combo) is not ok.

 

🤡

[Infinity.2876]

On 8/15/2020 at 2:15 PM, Caine.8204 said:

i know when to dodge against a stealthed opponent and they just do it again 2 seconds later. im really rewarded for my good gameplay! good thing i delayed his 9k backstab for two seconds, now i survived!

just kidding he spammed me with auto and killed me

good thing stealth only lasts for 3sec unless shadows refuge (just aoe it), shadows embrace (they deserve it), and chain stealth(less stealth attacks for you yay).

also any stealth attack I can think of dosent do much

deadeye deaths judgement: needs previous hits to do lots of damage also really really easy to dodge unless they have quickness

daredevil staff: who complains about this damage

dagger: really situational and even then doesnt do much damage

pistol: kind of a long cast time for a stealth attack

sword: nobody really uses sword with stealth

short bow: not useful except for genaric stealth benefits and immob

scepter specter: better at support than damage 

mostly you get hit by other kinds of attacks like three round burst 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[Infinity.2876]

6 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

A person can only go into stealth every 3 seconds if they land a hit. Not exactly spam.

deadeye can remove revealed once every 45 sec (the count recharge)

with shadow meld

Edited April 28, 2022 by Infinity.2876

[Justine.6351]

18 minutes ago, Infinity.2876 said:

deadeye can remove revealed once every 45 sec

with shadow meld

wow once every 45 seconds !?!?!?!

I wonder why everyone is playing celestial bunkers instead of glass cannon deadeyes?

 

Spoiler

its actually twice I think unless they actually attempted to balance it

 

[Gryxis.6950]

20 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Yeah, weak instant cast skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Wave . AoE damage, blast finisher, stacks modifiers, applies conditions, auto-crits for further synergies. 2 sec ICD because why the F not.
Lets venture into mesmer land!  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Distraction fully traited with domination. One button press is all it takes to DISABLE your healskill, and prep you for the incoming burst(vuln, quickness).
Or a fully traited https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Steal . (the skill's tooltip hardly fits on the screen) Much weakness, tradeoffs all over the place. 

Man I wish instant casts had some power in them. They can't even oneshot as things currently are!

Someone decided to make the argument that stealth attacks deserve a punish on being evaded BECAUSE they can be only anticipated, there is no telegraph. I just pointed out that this also applies to instant cast skills. It's a terrible idea, this was my way of pointing it out.

lmao despite the thread being two years old you're still being as intellectually dishonest as you were at the start. All those skills do not do much on their own, unlike a lot of non instant skills. Of course if you take 4 different traits to buff them they're gonna be as strong as non instant skills. The trade off would just have changed from the skill being weaker to you having to dedicate almost an entire traitline to one skill.

And the comparison with the actual topic at hand doesn't work for more than just this reason. Yes, if you dodge an attack coming from stealth you do not take the damage. But the person attacking you can just do it again and then you don't have a dodge left. Especially thief considering it doesn't have cooldowns (and yes, a 1s cooldown on your stealth attack isn't a real cooldown). Sometimes the thief will almost run out of stealth and will have to take time to lengthen his remaining stealth after you dodge but we do not have his stealth timer and have no idea what he's doing. So guess we just have to dodge randomly again and be really lucky. And for what, just so the thief prolongs his stealth one more ? Nah really, it's not toxic design and just not taking the damage is sufficient trade off lol

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

Stealth has been messed up for a long time in Guild Wars 2.  It is one of those all reward no risk skills.  When you compare it to stealth in other games like Team Fortress 2 and the Spy.  That game is high risk high reward stealth. 

We can only hope someday GW2 gets a good PvP team willing to take risks and make big changes to skills so we can at least test them, and not just add +1 second to this skill, or +2 second to this other skill.     

[Bazsi.2734]

13 hours ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

Can't hear you over the sound of all that backtracking.

 

That was painful to read. 

 

Stealth attacks by default have no counterplay beyond guessing and have no relevant CDs as they are determined by the accessibility of the builds stealth. Reveal on missed or blocked attacks is a reasonable drawback. 

You are literally just trolling at this point. Cough up those 2 citations to supplement your claims or don't bother talking to me. 😛

[Hotride.2187]

3 hours ago, MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 said:

Stealth has been messed up for a long time in Guild Wars 2.  It is one of those all reward no risk skills.

Personally I find hitting a stealthed thief to be the most effective way to hit a thief, most are not used to dodging while stealthed. It can take some guesswork ofc, even when you see them stealth. But to say its no risk... they are not invuln while stealthed.

[Bazsi.2734]

7 hours ago, Gryxis.6950 said:

lmao despite the thread being two years old you're still being as intellectually dishonest as you were at the start. All those skills do not do much on their own, unlike a lot of non instant skills. Of course if you take 4 different traits to buff them they're gonna be as strong as non instant skills. The trade off would just have changed from the skill being weaker to you having to dedicate almost an entire traitline to one skill.

And the comparison with the actual topic at hand doesn't work for more than just this reason. Yes, if you dodge an attack coming from stealth you do not take the damage. But the person attacking you can just do it again and then you don't have a dodge left. Especially thief considering it doesn't have cooldowns (and yes, a 1s cooldown on your stealth attack isn't a real cooldown). Sometimes the thief will almost run out of stealth and will have to take time to lengthen his remaining stealth after you dodge but we do not have his stealth timer and have no idea what he's doing. So guess we just have to dodge randomly again and be really lucky. And for what, just so the thief prolongs his stealth one more ? Nah really, it's not toxic design and just not taking the damage is sufficient trade off lol

So you're saying my comparison doesn't work, because instant skills are traitable, opposed to stealth attacks which also have traits to... wait what? Wow I'm really intellectual dis I honest belive.
 

1 second cooldown on missing a stealth attack is plenty. You can not just wait another second and try again, and expect the enemy to not react. They know the next backstab/whatever is coming, you'll hit blocks, a riposte, eat an AoE reveal etc. Not to mention the stealth might drop, no good player stacks 6-10 seconds of stealth just for one backstab. If you are against a thief who can just non-chalanty fail-stab you repeatedly, re-stealth or prolong stealth in your face unpunished... that sounds like a you problem.
Also if 2 failstabs is all it takes to completely empty your defenses, maybe equip some more. Blocks, riposte, pulsing blind/weakness from AoE fields, damage immunities etc... every class has acces to multiple of these. "Oh no, a thief failed to backstab me 2 times in a row, now I'm going to die" is just not going to work here, sorry.

[Zekent.3652]

 

I'd suggest being unable to contest capture points in a gamemode that's about contesting said points is a tradeoff.

And that's why you see so many thieves abusing their mobility and unnerfed SA on WvW.

No nodes, abuse your mobility.

Unnerfed traitline, abuse it too why not?

[Zekent.3652]

 

wow once every 45 seconds !?!?!?!

I wonder why everyone is playing celestial bunkers instead of glass cannon deadeyes?

Because those are the good builds to survive while thief is spamming stealth?

[Gryxis.6950]

16 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

So you're saying my comparison doesn't work, because instant skills are traitable, opposed to stealth attacks which also have traits to... wait what? Wow I'm really intellectual dis I honest belive.
 

1 second cooldown on missing a stealth attack is plenty. You can not just wait another second and try again, and expect the enemy to not react. They know the next backstab/whatever is coming, you'll hit blocks, a riposte, eat an AoE reveal etc. Not to mention the stealth might drop, no good player stacks 6-10 seconds of stealth just for one backstab. If you are against a thief who can just non-chalanty fail-stab you repeatedly, re-stealth or prolong stealth in your face unpunished... that sounds like a you problem.
Also if 2 failstabs is all it takes to completely empty your defenses, maybe equip some more. Blocks, riposte, pulsing blind/weakness from AoE fields, damage immunities etc... every class has acces to multiple of these. "Oh no, a thief failed to backstab me 2 times in a row, now I'm going to die" is just not going to work here, sorry.

Well yeah, you're still being as dishonest, I never said you can't trait your stealth attack, yet you're trying to make it sound like it's my argument (when what I said wasn't even close to that). Turns out when i say "instant skills have weaker effects than non instant skill, the fact that you can trait them to make them stronger does not make that fact go away" and you replay with "wow so you just said you can't trait stealth attack", yes, I would call that intellectual dishonesty, crazy me.

 

When almost any stealth last at least 3 seconds, you can absolutely wait another second to try again, especially when considering how short those cast times are. Also you'll notice nowhere in my previous messages I've said it was op or something like that. I don't think the good player don't do that is a good argument when I'm saying it's toxic. Maybe it's just mediocre player doing it, i don't know, and i don't usually die to it, but it is still a very unhealthy gameplay, especially considering the counterplay to it is just "play some classes and not others". If you're a mesmer (power mirages or virtuosos being the ones most countered by this) player you have no tools against this gameplay, while an engineer has no way of losing to this kind of builds, unless maybe if he's a core engi but who plays that? I'm not opposed to certain classes being stronger and weaker against some others but shutting them down almost completely I do not think that's healthy for the game.

And how are you supposed to punish a thief prolonging his stealth when you can't see it ?