overhaul balance patch shrank the meta to a quarter than it use to be

[Shiyo.3578]

@wasss.1208 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

Well this is you're opinion.

But its an actual fact that they were designed to be side grades and them changing them to being so isn't listening "to players complaining they couldn't play boring base classes", its them actually following through with the design philosophy they set out with after falling short on their own expectations and implementation by their own admittance.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.e-specs are only fun because they re way more overpowered than core specs. This means that you have way more chances to win a fight with an e-spec than a core spec. And for most people, more wins = more fun.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

XDNo.You guys really need to stop taking whatever you're taking, because it seems you're high most of the time whenever I read posts on this forum.Elite specializations dumbed down this game so much that I literally fall asleep trying to do anything beside dailies.Well designed are "core classes", or rather were since they were powercreeped as well one way or another to falsely bring them up to the HoT and PoF specialization level, which results we see today as complete joke like bunker condi necro with carapece or other memes.The only classes that were "jack of all trades master of none" before HoT were Elementalist and Engineer, everything else had a specific role and couln't really be all-rounder, simply impossible stat/trait/skill wise to obtain it.Another thing, if you really believe that Firebrand, Chronomancer, Deadeye, Mirage, Soulbeast or whatever are "well designed and more fun" then something is wrong, since these speces are straight upgrades to core, which is against what A-net stated as "a possibility to play your class differently", meaning e-speces should be an "option" not "mandatory" to be competetive.The only "true" specialization which qualify as an "optional playstyle" since 2012 up to this day is sadly Necromancer with it's Reaper and Scourge, everything else is just upgrade to some degree.Currently there is more "jack of all trades" builds than in 2012, because elite speces "fill" flaws of classes, dissappointing.P.S. The only classes that arguably had to pay(drawbacks) for elite specialization one way or another in HoT release were only Elementalist(Tempest; arguably), Necromancer(Reaper), everything else was just upgrade. Welcome in reality I guess?

[UNOwen.7132]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

Another thing, if you really believe that Firebrand, Chronomancer, Deadeye, Mirage, Soulbeast or whatever are "well designed and more fun" then something is wrong, since these speces are straight upgrades to core, which is against what A-net stated as "a possibility to play your class differently", meaning e-speces should be an "option" not "mandatory" to be competetive.

Deadeye is "a straight upgrade to core"? Its a straight downgrade at best. The same is arguably true for chronomancer recently.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

Another thing, if you really believe that Firebrand, Chronomancer, Deadeye, Mirage, Soulbeast or whatever are "well designed and more fun" then something is wrong, since these speces are straight upgrades to core, which is against what A-net stated as "a possibility to play your class differently", meaning e-speces should be an "option" not "mandatory" to be competetive.

Deadeye is "a straight upgrade to core"? Its a straight

downgrade

at best. The same is arguably true for chronomancer recently.

Oh my? You mean, that increased access to stealth/range/mobility and the dumbest elite skill in the entire game isn't "upgrade" to core? It doesn't provide anything like "new playstyle", it just promotes toxicity more than normally, so yea, it is just an upgrade. Chronomancer at the release of HoT was straight upgrade, they were nerfed a bit lately and same with other, they don't provide new playstyle, they just bring more toxicity to the table.Both of your "examples of downgrade" from the design standpoint are mistakes that shouldn't even be released, because they don't provide anything new beside powercreep to their respectful "playstyle" in the slightiest.Both classes gained something, but they didn't pay anything for it and that's the problem.

[UNOwen.7132]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@wasss.1208 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:They're not that cause base classes are all pretty easy and boring.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here. Care to explain?

Elite specs make classes well designed and more fun. Base specs were "jack of all trades master of none" but bad at everything and easy/boring.

Another thing, if you really believe that Firebrand, Chronomancer, Deadeye, Mirage, Soulbeast or whatever are "well designed and more fun" then something is wrong, since these speces are straight upgrades to core, which is against what A-net stated as "a possibility to play your class differently", meaning e-speces should be an "option" not "mandatory" to be competetive.

Deadeye is "a straight upgrade to core"? Its a straight

downgrade

at best. The same is arguably true for chronomancer recently.

Oh my? You mean, that increased access to stealth/range/mobility and the dumbest elite skill in the entire game isn't "upgrade" to core? It doesn't provide anything like "new playstyle", it just promotes toxicity more than normally, so yea, it is just an upgrade. Chronomancer at the release of HoT was straight upgrade, they were nerfed a bit lately and same with other, they don't provide new playstyle, they just bring more toxicity to the table.

It changes the steal mechanic entirely. It creates a new malice mechanic that focuses on stacking it up and cashing in with a stealth attack. Its a new playstyle alright. And its a downgrade. Its worse than base thief because of the steal change. Thats why Core Thief is meta and has been for a while, and Deadeye was never meta.

Both of your "examples of downgrade" from the design standpoint are mistakes that shouldn't even be released, because they don't provide anything new beside powercreep to their respectful "playstyle" in the slightiest.

Uh, no they dont powercreep. They change how you play. DE moreso than Chrono, but both still do.

Both classes gained something, but they didn't pay anything for it and that's the problem.

Besides the whole "no teleport on steal" thing you mean? Or no instant steal. Worse stolen skills.

[Teb.6980]

lol the fact that certain power chrono/deadeyes exist which can legit takedown in 1 second of mortal kombat button spamming & short-lived hard CC is enough to prove in which sense the game needs to be looked into.That is, certain OP specs (which still exist and enable such things to happen) are not well tracked, so the whole class gets hard nerfed to unplayability unless you spec for those specific things

One big example is how minor grenade barrage and grenade barrage as well as lich form never had the power nerf they needed. With recent revisions anet soft-nerfed the grenades without addressing the main issue (which is their count), and lich form simply had its cd lengthened and duration shortened, but none of that really saves us from getting "outplayed" by their overlooked damage coefficients lol

More builds fit in the list of absurd spikes: zerker rifle F1 faceroll warrior, condi thief, condi mirage, power chrono, basically any rev that isn't core, and ofc reaper

Welp

The takeaway (sad) point of it all is that only ONE build in each profession actually does the retarded burst, while all other specs are far off from being competitive in the current meta. So there is that. Balancing stuff by nerfing the absolute OP interactions will bring back balance and diversity, which are really valuable in MMO sPvP

[Fueki.4753]

The main problem is, that there has never been a balance patch in the first place.

As far as I remember Arenanet's changes for the sake of changing things in GW2 have never had a positive effect on balance.

[Teb.6980]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Balance patches need to be more frequent. Im fine with op builds existing as long as the meta doesnt get stale. A balance patch once a month wouldnt solve every problem, but at least we woudlnt need to waste our energy on pointless conversations like this

What this dude said

[Lucentfir.7430]

@Teb.6980 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Balance patches need to be more frequent. Im fine with op builds existing as long as the meta doesnt get stale. A balance patch once a month wouldnt solve every problem, but at least we woudlnt need to waste our energy on pointless conversations like this

What this dude said

If you've been here for a long time, you'd already know that just isn't going to happen. This has been echo'd throughout the years for as long as I can remember. This time around they straight up lied about putting out faster balancing fixes and left everyone with bad changes. You also have to ask yourself what other game breaks their own their own skills , and leaves broken placeholder traits(300s ICD) unusable for nearly half a year, that isn't a early access alpha/beta game? It's ridiculous. The game mode needs a lot of things but Anet isn't willing to deliver what is needed, because they don't care. :anguished:

[Thornwolf.9721]

@shadowpass.4236 said:The game was infinitely better before the february patch imo.

I also hate all of the tradeoffs and reworks that they've done. They've screwed over so many different classes with crappy ones.

I agree with this, it felt more fluid and more rewarding to play your class well. Now some classes just SUCK (Warrior) And others feel like they are WAAAY too good. (Guardian, thief, necro=depends on spec) Id argue revenant and even to some extent the other classes are in the same boat. Depending on build you either are not prepared for anything or you simply cant counter anything. WvW has suffered vastly because of this, we used to see a healthy dose of different classes out in WvW but now its mostly same/same. Warriors are bubble bots, Rev's are regulated to the back-line as they suck at anything and everything else. I guess the best thing about this is, my core ranger build from forever ago is now top-notch in the fact I can fight just about anything and not need to worry about not having the power. (Outside of the occasional thief, or the occasional soul-beast/Dragon-hunter I can do fairly well.) So I've been playing my second main char who I Dropped at the begining of PoF as I made the class to play with the pet and the mechanic not eat it and be a Soul-beast.

But it sucks that my two love children, my warrior and my rev have been hung up because honestly.... neither are fun to play anymore. And neither playstyle I played is viable with both just .... being in my eyes complete trash when it comes to classes.

@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@Teb.6980 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Balance patches need to be more frequent. Im fine with op builds existing as long as the meta doesnt get stale. A balance patch once a month wouldnt solve every problem, but at least we woudlnt need to waste our energy on pointless conversations like this

What this dude said

If you've been here for a long time, you'd already know that just isn't going to happen. This has been echo'd throughout the years for as long as I can remember. This time around they straight up lied about putting out faster balancing fixes and left everyone with bad changes. You also have to ask yourself what other game breaks their own their own skills , and leaves broken placeholder traits(300s ICD) unusable for nearly half a year, that isn't a early access alpha/beta game? It's ridiculous. The game mode needs a lot of things but Anet isn't willing to deliver what is needed, because they don't care. :anguished:

Eight years and still in beta, such a good meme. Sadly we feel like we are in the beta for CORE guild wars 2, which arguably was better than this but Im pretty sure ANYTHING could be better than this.

@Teb.6980 said:lol the fact that certain power chrono/deadeyes exist which can legit takedown in 1 second of mortal kombat button spamming & short-lived hard CC is enough to prove in which sense the game needs to be looked into.That is, certain OP specs (which still exist and enable such things to happen) are not well tracked, so the whole class gets hard nerfed to unplayability unless you spec for those specific things

One big example is how minor grenade barrage and grenade barrage as well as lich form never had the power nerf they needed. With recent revisions anet soft-nerfed the grenades without addressing the main issue (which is their count), and lich form simply had its cd lengthened and duration shortened, but none of that really saves us from getting "outplayed" by their overlooked damage coefficients lol

More builds fit in the list of absurd spikes: zerker rifle F1 faceroll warrior, condi thief, condi mirage, power chrono, basically any rev that isn't core, and ofc reaper

Welp

The takeaway (sad) point of it all is that only ONE build in each profession actually does the kitten burst, while all other specs are far off from being competitive in the current meta. So there is that. Balancing stuff by nerfing the absolute OP interactions will bring back balance and diversity, which are really valuable in MMO sPvP

Really does make the classes one would assume to be the favorites, seem all the more beloved. I mean I sure as heck as a warrior/rev feel the pain, Feel completely unwanted in the game. Luckily I have found something to hold me over until it gets nerfed (Likely considering everyone hates core ranger, and the pet. Pretty soon it will be Soul-beast or bust.)

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:The game was infinitely better before the february patch imo.

I also hate all of the tradeoffs and reworks that they've done. They've screwed over so many different classes with crappy ones.

Disagree with game better, but 100% agree with trade offs. For thief, you get unblockable steal(blatant power creep), lower cooldown(blatant power creep) for -600 range. 2 for 1 special I guess? Not a trade off at all.

Soulbeasts trade off just removes depth from the class and should 100% not exist in PvE. It's fine for PvP/WvW but I don't see a reason to limit 1 pet for PvE, all it does is make the class less fun.

Mesmers trade offs just butchered and gutted the entire class. Mesmer and ele are both competing for the "most overnerfed for no reason" award. I don't know what they were thinking.

Meanwhile you have classes like holosmith with literally >>ZERO<< meaningful trade off(no , your toolbelt f5 is not a trade off dude).

Trade offs design should've never started, base classes are boring and should not be played after you unlock elites. Elites should be "Advancement" for your base classes, I have no idea why they listened to players complaining they couldn't play boring base classes but they need to go back and revert every "Trade off" they've implemented as they had zero positive impact on the game and only made classes worse, or in thiefs case, blatantly stronger for zero reason. If the reason was "F2P players need good classes too!" well uh, buy the game? It's $30.

The problem with that is that ever since they introduced elite specs, there have been specs which had trade offs from the very beginning.

Reapers lost access to death shroud for reaper's shroud, scourge lost death shroud for sand shade mechanic.Scrapper and holosmith are losing elite toolbelt skills (you might not want to count it, but it

is

a skill lost that core engineer can use).Spellbreakers lose 1 adrenaline bar and access to burst above level 1.

You want to get rid of trade offs, then you also need to change all this stuff.Reaper should get reaper's shroud as a F2 ability, enabling them to chose between death shroud and reaper's shroud at will.Scourge keeps death shroud on F1, sand shade abilities are moved to the F2-F6 keys.Scrapper and holosmith get function gyro and photon forge moved to F6, so they still have access to the elite toolbelt skill.Spellbreaker gets back 3 adrenaline bars and can use level 2 and 3 bursts.Etc.

that would nerf spb honestly, main appeal of SPB is that you can spam adrenaline skills. rotating F1 -> F2 ( reset ) -> F1, otherwise using 1 adrenaline skill kind of sucks, maybe its something they could buff for core warrior, at least in pvp, or even give warrior another F skill ( utility based )

Spellbreaker is already weak, Core honestly can run circles around it. Core by far is the strongest of the Warrior specs ironically enough and honestly nerfing spell-breaker serves to remove it from the game; Which I disagree with. Berserker is a joke, core is viable but its not really that great because honestly other classes (Looking at you guardian) can provide what it does, better with more coverage on other fronts. So be-careful as they wont nerf spellbreaker alone likely they will nerf core too and make warrior even LESS playable than it already is as the class right now feels like hot garbage.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

XDNo.You guys really need to stop taking whatever you're taking, because it seems you're high most of the time whenever I read posts on this forum.

??

Elite specializations dumbed down this game so much that I literally fall asleep trying to do anything beside dailies.

They're not all bad though. The idea of elite specs are pretty cool because you could just as easily get bored of running the same core comps over and over and pvp could use more content.They're best when they have some sort of meaningful tradeoff that sets them apart from core as an option rather than just being a straight upgrade.

Everyone's definition of an actual meaningful tradeoff is going to vary dramatically, like some people believing Holo losing their 5th toolbelt skill(even though forge functions exactly alike with some traits) is enough to make core engi a better pick in some scenarios.I personally think the best example is Zerker because you lose sustain for more damage, only getting that sustain back if you opt out of the more damage-focused GM traits.Second best being Mirage with 1-dodge.They also; imo, had the right idea with Soulbeast getting no pet swap although there's always room for improvement.

Those are the most creative ways to simultaneously buff and nerf something, instead of just nerfing anything and everything like the current balance agenda focuses on. Shifting the power curve down has only created all new outliers while changing little to nothing about what makes most elite specs stronger than their core counterparts.Staying in line with what the OP was about, it has also bumped all the aforementioned elite specs with tradeoffs out of the meta in favor of 4 specs with questionable at best definitions of 'tradeoffs.'