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Raise the sell price limit on the trading post

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robertthebard.8150

robertthebard.8150

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. How much are items being sold for on 3rd party sites now? How many people actually know about them, let alone use them. I found out about them because of this thread. I still haven't felt the need to go look. What happens if the cap is raised, and those items can be listed on the TP instead? For the most part, nothing is going to change for some people, because they'll still "cheat the system" by selling off site. For others, they'll start listing those items for what they think people think they're worth, and people that want them, even if they think they're too high, will start jacking up the prices of what they're selling in order to get the funds for those items. The irony is that, in an effort to control the prices, those with the funds, the "TP Barons", will buy up everything they can that's below what they're trying to get the prices to and relist them. This will include items listed by people that are just jacking up the price to acquire funds for that one thing they want.

It's not a matter of not liking your answer but the fact that you never provided one that actually backed up your claim.

So they'll be like "check it out, all those items I overpriced sold, I can jack up the price a bit more". This isn't some power fantasy for how trading through an AH system works, this is playing more than one MMO, and knowing it's how it works when there's a centralized place to sell these items, instead of an ESO type system, where there's not, and players still have to actually win a vendor to sell their goods. I started with Rappelz. In the Neverwinter MMO, it took exactly two weeks for this trend to start. swtor is no better. There was a single pair of gloves listed for 9 million credits. In swtor, these gloves had no special properties, at all. They are effectively a skin, with modification slots. They didn't have any extra slots, just a name, and a look.

You do realize that players can put their sell posts below those overpriced orders? That the supply for 99% of the items in the game cannot be controlled by players? I can currently list a pair of gloves that are of white quality on the TP for 10K gold. This doesn't mean that the price actually inflated to that amount. You're completely ignoring that players are free to undercut my listing with their own sell orders or that mine will never sell because there are so many lower than it.

Not only did I not "ignore" this, I pointed it out earlier. But, as with everything in a "but I want it, and if you keep arguing against it, they're not going to do it" conversation, that has to be ignored. The other problem with your scenario is, of course, that the items have to have some value. I love that you jumped straight to a worthless piece of gear to "support" your claim that it won't affect the economy, and how you chose to selectively edit my post though. The strength of your arguments are shining through...

That's sarcasm, in case you didn't get it.

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Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

And he repeated that: Like i said, they balanced it so the supply should be slightly above demand (by 10%), but didn't think about the possibility of many players realizing that MCs became a valuabl

Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

True, I don't exactly see the reason for not doing that.

Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

I don't know the term in English but it's a free economy, stuff costs what players think it costs Up to the value of 10k yes, which is the cap Anet decided stuff can cost.Nope, up to the value any sp

Tiilimon.6094

Tiilimon.6094

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The current richest TP barons could easily buy out all the most expensive items in the ingame trading post and 3rd party websites as well, then try to sell them for double the price they bought em for or even more.But as far as I know, they're pretty cool folks and don't wish to do such nasty deeds.

Here's a video made by those very barons that might interest the people in this discussion:

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. How much are items being sold for on 3rd party sites now? How many people actually know about them, let alone use them. I found out about them because of this thread. I still haven't felt the need to go look. What happens if the cap is raised, and those items can be listed on the TP instead? For the most part, nothing is going to change for some people, because they'll still "cheat the system" by selling off site. For others, they'll start listing those items for what they think people think they're worth, and people that want them, even if they think they're too high, will start jacking up the prices of what they're selling in order to get the funds for those items. The irony is that, in an effort to control the prices, those with the funds, the "TP Barons", will buy up everything they can that's below what they're trying to get the prices to and relist them. This will include items listed by people that are just jacking up the price to acquire funds for that one thing they want.

It's not a matter of not liking your answer but the fact that you never provided one that actually backed up your claim.

So they'll be like "check it out, all those items I overpriced sold, I can jack up the price a bit more". This isn't some power fantasy for how trading through an AH system works, this is playing more than one MMO, and knowing it's how it works when there's a centralized place to sell these items, instead of an ESO type system, where there's not, and players still have to actually win a vendor to sell their goods. I started with Rappelz. In the Neverwinter MMO, it took exactly two weeks for this trend to start. swtor is no better. There was a single pair of gloves listed for 9 million credits. In swtor, these gloves had no special properties, at all. They are effectively a skin, with modification slots. They didn't have any extra slots, just a name, and a look.

You do realize that players can put their sell posts below those overpriced orders? That the supply for 99% of the items in the game cannot be controlled by players? I can currently list a pair of gloves that are of white quality on the TP for 10K gold. This doesn't mean that the price actually inflated to that amount. You're completely ignoring that players are free to undercut my listing with their own sell orders or that mine will never sell because there are so many lower than it.

Not only did I not "ignore" this, I pointed it out earlier. But, as with everything in a "but I want it, and if you keep arguing against it, they're not going to do it" conversation, that has to be ignored. The other problem with your scenario is, of course, that the items have to have some value. I love that you jumped straight to a worthless piece of gear to "support" your claim that it won't affect the economy, and how you chose to selectively edit my post though. The strength of your arguments are shining through...

That's sarcasm, in case you didn't get it.

That worthless piece of gear was what you used earlier in this thread to justify your claims that prices would increase. It’s kind of odd to dismiss it when you yourself used it.

I’m still waiting to see how removing/increasing the price cap in this game in any way will cause all items to suffer inflation as you have claimed. All that have been made so far are statements which have nothing to do with this game nor with the price cap.

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zealex.9410

zealex.9410

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:By having the cap at 10k you add a risk for players that want to sell an item above 10k gold. Risk it, or sell it for less than 10k. A better solution: items shouldn't be "worth" more than 10k gold. Who even comes up with how much an item is "worth" anyway?

An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

That doesn't work in this case because items that are so called "worth" more than 10k cannot be posted for that price on the trading post. So how do the sellers know someone is willing to pay more than 10k for it? They just inflate the price and profit over it. All items "worth" above 10k are a scam

They know someone is willing to pay more than 10k for it because people post their buy offers on forums that were created to facilitate high-value trades in GW2. Just because the trading post doesn't allow buy offers higher than 10k does not mean people won't pay more than 10k.

The only thing the 10k limit does, is force people to trade without using the trading post. The
is valued at 70k - 80k from what I could find out. People are buying either through these 3rd party forums or directly from goldsellers.

So it's not how much someone is willing to pay for an item, but how much particular people that know about specific forums DESIGNED for high-value trades are willing to pay for. There is a very big difference here. Also, you make it sound like there is a large volume for such transactions, if there was, then they wouldn't be valued so high, so either the number of such sales is insignificant, or the sellers themselves are inflating the prices of certain "expensive" and control the market. In both cases it's really bad for the game, so I stand by my original comment that items should never be "worth" more than 10k gold.

Edit: the problem is that certain items are "Worth" (by those that control the market) more than 10k, not that there is a cap to how much gold someone can get for an item.

If ppl werent willing to buy these items for more than 10k then such forums or subs would crumble down and youd see these transactions happen in the tp.

Yet, that not the case, truth be told the problem for many ppl is twofold, 1 the price cap 2 the tax, many ppl sell and buy many items in bulk well bellow the cap just to not have to deal with the tax.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Vavume.8065 said:

The value of an item is based on what someone is willing to pay for it. Artificial limits take self determination away from people.

Up to the cap of 10k. I could complain that WvW rank is also capped at 10k, since in reality I'm way beyond that, would I prefer they remove that cap? sure, do I think they are going to? probably not, can I continue to play and have fun with the cap? yes.

Nope, up to whatever amount of gold they're ready to pay for it, which is already proven by the current situation that automatically disproves your -incorrect- opinion about it.

@Vavume.8065 said:

Dunno why you even bring up completely off topic stuff like WvW rank, could as well talk about Achievement Points and it's cap and it sounds just as silly in a discussion about a tradable currency in the game.

It's not off topic... the point was there are many caps in the game, and the players do not decide what the cap is, Anet does.

What currently happens off the tp proves you're wrong.

And he's correct, your comparison with wvw rank is 100% irrelevant in this thread, it changes nothing about the worth of an item or how people sell/buy it.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. (...)

As far as I understand what you wrote in this thread (in previous posts, because somehow I can't even get myself to go through this one...), it's this: if you raise the price cap on tp, the items will automatically raise their price to that cap. Is this what you're saying?

If yes, then you're absolutely WRONG and the CURRENT gw2 situation regarding these rare items already prove you wrong.

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Vavume.8065

Vavume.8065

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@"Tiilimon.6094" said:It's not a tax, the money vanishes completely. It's not used to pay for anything by anyone, it simply ceases to exist.

A money sink, as we usually call it in these games.

The listing/exchange fee is a tax, and I think the term you are looking for is "Gold Sink"...

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Vavume.8065 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:

What currently happens off the tp proves you're wrong.

That only proves that cheaters exist in this game, nothing more.

Nothing about that is "cheating" (if it is, explain how edit: I've read further posts. No, this is not an equivalent of IRL taxes or "tax evasion". No, trading outside of tp isn't "cheating" or "illegal".) and it literally proves that most valuable items don't magically fill up to the price limit, but instead are worth as much as someone is willing to pay for it. So you're wrong again.

And now you're arguing about strict terminology in "money sink" vs "gold sink", when the meaning is literally the same, instead of tackling the core of what he said. Not sure what's your point about that unless you're just avoiding what he wrote because you know he's correct.

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robertthebard.8150

robertthebard.8150

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. (...)

As far as I understand what you wrote in this thread (in previous posts, because somehow I can't even get myself to go through this one...), it's this:
if you raise the price cap on tp, the items will automatically raise their price to that cap
. Is this what you're saying?

If yes, then you're absolutely WRONG and the CURRENT gw2 situation regarding these rare items already prove you wrong.

It's amazing, because if you'd read the responses, instead of admitting that you hadn't, you'd already know that answer. But, since you won't, is there any reason to include it here?

Just in case: That is not what I said. I said people will start raising prices on other items, and I used the Minor Sigil of Fire as an example, in order to get the funds together for the items they're looking to buy at the increased cap. This will trickle down through items that are routinely listed, and that's how this kind of inflation happens. Contrary to arguments presented, I did not use something like "white gloves". I get ya'll want it, ya'll want it to the point of admittedly ignoring posts, we have that admission here, from you. So this isn't me accusing you of something bad, this is me citing you on something you said, so I expect I won't be hearing from a moderator, this time?

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Linken.6345

Linken.6345

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. (...)

As far as I understand what you wrote in this thread (in previous posts, because somehow I can't even get myself to go through this one...), it's this:
if you raise the price cap on tp, the items will automatically raise their price to that cap
. Is this what you're saying?

If yes, then you're absolutely WRONG and the CURRENT gw2 situation regarding these rare items already prove you wrong.

It's amazing, because if you'd read the responses, instead of admitting that you hadn't, you'd already know that answer. But, since you won't, is there any reason to include it here?

Just in case: That is not what I said. I said people will start raising prices on other items, and I used the Minor Sigil of Fire as an example, in order to get the funds together for the items they're looking to buy at the increased cap. This will trickle down through items that are routinely listed, and that's how this kind of inflation happens. Contrary to arguments presented, I did not use something like "white gloves". I get ya'll want it, ya'll want it to the point of admittedly ignoring posts, we have that admission here, from you. So this isn't me accusing you of something bad, this is me citing you on something you said, so I expect I won't be hearing from a moderator, this time?

Since with skins here dont have different skins like in other games you cant sell them for high prices.The same goes for other materials as well it wont magically raise in price if the cap is raised.If it did people would already be raising the prices to afford the items outside of the trading post but they havent.

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Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

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@Vavume.8065 said:

The value of an item is based on what someone is willing to pay for it. Artificial limits take self determination away from people.

Up to the cap of 10k. I could complain that WvW rank is also capped at 10k, since in reality I'm way beyond that, would I prefer they remove that cap? sure, do I think they are going to? probably not, can I continue to play and have fun with the cap? yes.

Personally I think that there is a difference between a third party telling two players how they can interact (in terms of trade of course) and a ceiling on WvW rank. That said, there are work arounds for the trade issue...work arounds that ANet has professed to not want.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@robertthebard.8150 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Basically anything a new player might need in the game drops in such quantities, that there will always be a cheap source even if the TP maximum prices were pushed up to a billion.There are already plenty of individuals playing the game who could just buy all t6 materials off the trading post and reprice em as they like to 10k, but they will have to stay online 247 to keep buying things as they are listed, and they can't stop the cheaper stuff that people are instantly selling to people who order em for low prices.

If you don't sell or buy items over 10k, this change would never affect you at all in any way tbh.

People generally are afraid of things they don't seem to understand, and I see a lot of that sort of fear in this thread.

Except it will eventually affect everything in the game. When you don't cap what players can sell for, they sell for what they think someone will pay. As players start generating more funds, other items start going up, and it doesn't take very long at all before a Minor Fire Sigil is a few hundred gold. I've seen base items listed in a game's AH for billions of the game's currency. Not capped, maxed out gear, but the base items. That's not a typo either, billions. By the time they started trying to add significant sinks for the currency, it was way too late.

So no, I'd rather not see the currency devalued so badly that new players looking for odds and ends see those prices, look at what they generate a day, and just quit.

What you're suggesting would never happen.

What I'm suggesting has already happened. It's even happened to more than just the one MMO. They just recently changed publishers, who took a look at the in game economy, and wiped the servers. I'm not buying "But this is GW 2, people aren't that greedy here", or similar, in a thread insisting that the max sell price for items be raised above what it is now.

Please provide examples and include
all
of the information to back them up.

It makes zero sense for the cap to impact items in this game unless it was already limiting them. Raising the cap isn't going to magically cause minor sigil prices to suddenly inflate.

Saying that it would essentially ignores basic economic theory. It doesn’t change the demand for an item. It doesn’t change the supply for an item. It certainly doesn’t impact the available gold that players have to spend on the item. But by all means... please provide the logic behind how raising the cap would cause all prices to inflate.

I'll just make is simple, they'll use the same rationale they're using here: It's worth what people will pay. As the prices for "desirable" items increases, and people start feeling that influx of currency, they will raise prices on other things as well.

Which has nothing to do with raising/removing the price cap.

In Rappelz, when I first started, empty pet cards were running around a million rupee each, that's the ingame currency. This was 15 years ago. The last time I played, those same cards were 10 million each. These aren't extravagant end game pets, but basic pets. The extravagant pets were much much higher. Empty dragon cards running in the 100s of millions. This, with a 0.00001% chance to actually tame it, if it were that even that good. Basic equipment was listing for billions. This, with the high probability, if you're not using the cash shop to win, of the item breaking during enchantment, and being unusable unless you can repair it, which also has to be purchased from the cash shop, or other players listing those items on the AH. Yeah, you're not getting those items cheap.

Please explain how this inflation was due to increasing/removing a price cap.

The net result, with no real sinks, was that everything on the AH started getting more and more expensive, to the point where, if you don't have a few billion rupee, you're not buying anything significant. Players that weren't generating enough income could just hit their wallet, and list things on the AH, slightly undercutting someone else, and get to where they too could list things for high prices too. We don't have to worry about the equipment here, but one can already see wildly fluctuating prices on the TP, what happens when that cap is removed? We already have people using third party sites to facilitate these trades, and frankly, since the taxes would increase with the sale price, those will continue anyway, so it doesn't really accomplish what the OP thinks it will. People desiring to avoid the tax will move to the third party sites, and the rest will "lose" money on their transactions. This isn't even my 10th MMO, let alone my first. I've seen what an unchecked economy can do to a game, and I'd prefer to not see it again.

You're failing to identify how removing a price cap causes inflation.

Also be aware that the GW2 economy has been fairly stable.

It wasn't. It was due to not having one at all, a point I am fairly certain I made in my first post, that got lost in the "but I want this, so I have to support it no matter what". The limitation is removed by simply not being there in the first place, and this is the end result. The same will be true for this. Players needing to raise the cash for these heavily inflated prices will raise the prices on whatever they can in order to raise the currency they need. This already happens, look at any item with tons of listings, and check out the price ranges they hit.

Well then prove that this cap is necessary in GW2. It just seems that a hyperbole is being used to create fear that removing the cap will somehow cause issues when 99.99% of the items in the game don't even break 5K and have remained fairly stable over the years.

Why does maintaining the status quo require proof? Prove that removing or raising this cap will improve the quality of life for everyone playing. The burden of proof isn't on me, I have the devs in my corner, as it were, since they put it in when they designed the market.

You made the claim that removing/increasing the price cap would cause prices for everything to increase. I'm simply asking you to back up that claim.

I already have. However, since prices in game aren't in the billions for items, even going off the grid to sell them, I'd say this system is working rather well. So, since you're pushing for a change, how about you support your claim that it won't happen. It's going to be a hard row, though, since we have statements in this thread that people are trading on third party websites to bypass both the limit and the taxes. I'm frankly surprised that ANet allows that, which they must, if people are going to post about it publicly, most MMOs discourage that kind of thing.

You haven’t. Nothing you have stated has backed up any correlation between a price cap raising and it being the cause to inflation of items.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it wasn't provided. (...)

As far as I understand what you wrote in this thread (in previous posts, because somehow I can't even get myself to go through this one...), it's this:
if you raise the price cap on tp, the items will automatically raise their price to that cap
. Is this what you're saying?

If yes, then you're absolutely WRONG and the CURRENT gw2 situation regarding these rare items already prove you wrong.

It's amazing, because if you'd read the responses, instead of admitting that you hadn't, you'd already know that answer. But, since you won't, is there any reason to include it here?

Just in case: That is not what I said. I said people will start raising prices on other items, and I used the Minor Sigil of Fire as an example, in order to get the funds together for the items they're looking to buy at the increased cap. This will trickle down through items that are routinely listed, and that's how this kind of inflation happens. Contrary to arguments presented, I did not use something like "white gloves".

Where did I write anything about "something like white gloves", how can you talk about reading the posts when you're not even responding to anything I've said?

Your example with minor fire sigil is irrelevant, the price can still raise and on almost every single item in the game the cap isn't anywhere remotely near to the TP cap, so how is raising tp cap supposed to influence anything here? The items that are already valued at more than 10k gold are just an example for the fact that if people value something above that cap, they'll still sell it outside of tp regardless of that cap. Increasing tp cap wont magically start an insane increase of price of every item in the game, what are you even talking about?And if that's not what you're talking about, then what exactly is the downside of increasing the cap? (heeeey, there's none, except for the people that pretty much scam unaware -but still lucky- people by buying infusions for 10k on tp from them because that's the highest/only possible buy bid)

I get ya'll want it, ya'll want it to the point of admittedly ignoring posts, we have that admission here, from you. So this isn't me accusing you of something bad, this is me citing you on something you said, so I expect I won't be hearing from a moderator, this time?

...what?

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:There are currently 97 buy orders at 10K gold from 67 accounts for the chak egg. Clearly there are people that feel that it's worth at least that much.

Right. There are 25 people on gw2efficiency that combined have 158 chak egg sacks, that's 6.32 chak egg sacks on average on those 25 gw2efficiency accounts. So what's "clear" here is not that people feel it's "worth" it as much, but there are some "TP barons" that are hoarding all the chak egg sacks they can find to inflate its price. I'm willing to bet those 97 buy orders are from the same types of people that want to show the world that their investment is worth a lot.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:You do realize that players can put their sell posts below those overpriced orders? That the supply for 99% of the items in the game cannot be controlled by players?

See above. Some might be posting items at lower prices, but they are quickly being bought by the rich tp barons and then relisted at higher prices. When an item has such low amounts in circulation it's very easy to be manipulated by bots, TP barons and market manipulators, after all we are talking about a 200$ transaction for an in-game cosmetic item.

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Tiilimon.6094

Tiilimon.6094

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Tiilimon.6094" said:Cheating?They're just arranging trades outside of the game.

Don't be silly, lol.

With real money involved. Chak Egg Sacks go for ~200$

I think that's a whole other topic, as such things are against TOS."You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so."

But the trades arranged outside of the game for the ingame currency are totally legit, that's what we were talking about here afaik.

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maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

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@Tiilimon.6094 said:

@Tiilimon.6094 said:Cheating?They're just arranging trades outside of the game.

Don't be silly, lol.

With real money involved. Chak Egg Sacks go for ~200$

I think that's a whole other topic, as such things are against TOS."You may not sell or auction any Game(s) accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so."

But the trades arranged outside of the game for the ingame currency are totally legit, that's what we were talking about here afaik.

I didn't find many such trades I'm afraid, all searches I did indicated that such high value items are sold for real money, not in-game currency. Or rather that the number of items being sold for in-game currency compared to real money is absolutely tiny. All such items do is create an RMT economy around them, which is why I don't think such "high value" items are good for the game. And we aren't talking about small amounts either, this is about 200$-500$ items that Anet allows to exist.

Trades arranged with in-game currency are totally legit of course and as I said earlier in this thread the amount of gold (tax evasion as some called it) Anet "loses" when they bypass the TP is miniscule anyway so not worth considering.

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