Story Timeline & Game Structure is NOT New Player Friendly (Discussion)

[Milkshake.4370]

Hey everyone,

I am a pretty new player (started in 2020) and I just finished all of the story chapters and am up to date with Champions.I have quite a few comments to get out and I figured why not here haha.

Omitted Content Detracts New PlayersFirstly, I must say that I really enjoyed playing through all the episodes of GW2 however, I was truly only hooked after reaching Heart of Thorns.I am originally a console gamer and only now started getting into PC gaming and I feel that the first half of GW2 (Level 1-80 + Living World S2) is not on parr with the modern gaming world. I understand that the game was just starting out at this point and did not have a high budget, however I feel this may be a reason why the game is struggling to attract new players.

Even though there is an option to skip to level 80,_ I believe that the game "takes too long" to "get good". _As somebody starting out in 2020, I was bored and not very impressed with Season 2. Furthermore, I was very confused because of the omission of Scarlett's War episodes which made the story hard to follow and I had to look up the omitted content on Wiki.I know that the Scarlett content was important and a crucial aspect to the early game and the early GW2 player experience, however it is a huge setback and turn off for newer players.

It is difficult to follow or invest into a story, especially when you feel you have started in the middle. Especially the missions where players have to go through Scarlett's belongings, secret hideout, and follow her trail, her memories. I did not know who Scarlett was and the short recap provided in game was not enough to create a fulfilling experience to me as a new player.I think this is a huge huge turn off for newer players.

Heart Of Thorns (HoT)This is where the game takes a huge turn for the better. Absolutely everything is improved; music, sound design, world design, story, writing. Literally everything about this expansion was incredible, captivating, and immersive. The only reason I played to get to HoT was because I saw my partner playing this expansion and it was very different from Level 1-80 and LWS2. If I was a newer player, I would never have paid for this expansion or even gotten to it based off of the experience I had with the gameplay prior. Somebody in my guild compared this to a restaurant, which forces the patrons to eat an entire loaf of bread before giving them the ordered food. Some people are full after the loaf of bread, most people don't even finish it and get to their meal. I think that this may be a source for the dwindling GW2 new player numbers and ArenaNet's revenue. There is very little encouragement or incentive for new players to purchase expansions or spend money on the game, when the initial opening content is so boring and slow. This sets an incorrect precedent and expectation for what the paid expansions will be.

Living World Season 4 - INCREDIBLE but Lack of Marketing?As the game progresses after HoT, it keeps getting better and better. With more mastery points and mounts, the story, sound design, and music reaches incredible potential and structure. If I wanted to get people to play the game, I would be pushing and screaming for them to play Heart of Thorns, Path of Fire, or Living World Season 4. I don't understand why ArenaNet hasn't pushed for certain aspects of these expansions in their marketing campaigns.

I work in music and marketing professionally, and in my opinion, their approach to marketing the game can be drastically improved. The trailers and game material that they promote does not reflect the game and does not compete against World of Warcraft or other fantasy games. Why was the Griffon a "secret mount" and barely showcased? Why is the skyscale barely advertised? The skyscale is one of the strongest selling points for this game. There is no other game where you can literally see hundreds of people dropping from the sky and mounting a dragon and flying together to fight a world boss (happens in Drizzlewood Coast, IceBrood Saga). Furthermore, I have seen many Heart of Thorns trailers with

and trailers for episodes that are extremely underwhelming when the actual episode is incredible.

When I went to ComicCon and other fan conventions, my impression of GW2 was always that it was a League of Legends type of game or one of those games on mobile where you attack villages like (Game of War) LOL. This was far from the truth but it took me 5 years to find out!

Future PotentialI truly believe this to be one of the most unique, creative, and fun fantasy games available today. Even in 2021, I find this game fascinating. I hope that ArenaNet will eventually change their marketing approach and adjust the game to be more friendly to new players. Literally omitting the majority of Season 2 and only keeping the crucial storylines that lead up to HoT (Glint's Labyrinth, dragon eggs, dragon magic) would be better than what it is now. (Sorry original players or anyone who played through Scarlet's War, don't hate me).

[Linken.6345]

You totaly skiped living world season 3?

[Randulf.7614]

We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but the impression I've had is that the game generally does OK attracting new players and the personal story doesn't seem to put anyone off. Considering it's an 8 year+ mmo without a AAA name, it does pretty well in a declining part of the pc market. But, certainly regular players prob don't see a lot of evidence the core game puts many people off. In fact we see a lot of mixed feedback suggesting HoT is less popular than the core zones (I love the maps, many hate them)

Scarlet's War was at the time a bit of a disaster. It has its fans for sure and there were a few really iconic battles in it, but there really wasn't much story (perhaps less than two-three episodes worth by todays standards over a year and a half). It was simply a series of monthly set pieces which added new stuff every couple of weeks sometimes that deleted itself when the next episode came along to keep the idea of a constantly evolving world- which was usually a festival or a boss fight. It needs a better catch up, but it's clear it'll never be rewritten now since it would need starting fom scratch - it was nothing like what we have now

Marketing is poor. It always has been. The biggest barrier by far for new players is the fact so many don't know of the seasons between expansions and that they have to pay for them. The poor advertisement of this has been well documented

LS2 is actually reasonably popular. Or at least accepted as being fine for what it was - ie clearing up the mess left behind by LS1 (Scarlet's War). It just lacks the production values of what came later. Omitting Season 2 would be a very bad idea

I am unaware of any issue players have of finding out about expacs. In fact new players tend to go there first to get the mounts and gliders if all the forum posts we see are any indication

[Westenev.5289]

It was the same back in 2015 - you'd finish the level 80 story, then move onto lws2 wondering what happened to Destinys Edge and why you're on a team with a goth, a egirl, a norn Thackery and a zojja knockoff whose voice is extremely familiar if you play other games. Who knows what people think nowadays when you jump straight from PS to HoT or PoF expecting answers.

Despite this, Lws2 had its moments - cannach and annise were a fun combination, and the dragon fight on the pale tree was pretty cool. But, I digress, I don't see it aging well after having played HoT or PoF era content, and playing it just causes more questions about lws1.

[Milkshake.4370]

@Linken.6345 said:You totaly skiped living world season 3?

I did! The post was getting kind of long so I focused on the main stuff I wanted to get across

[maddoctor.2738]

@Randulf.7614 said:We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but the impression I've had is that the game generally does OK attracting new players and the personal story doesn't seem to put anyone off.

We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but NCSoft said back in 2015, when the core game went free to play, that the conversion of free players into paid players wasn't the expected one, thus leading to lower revenue than was projected at the time. So at the very least, NCSoft told us that the core game wasn't able to convert players, was this also true before Heart of Thorns we obviously don't know. The game does struggle to keep new players interested at the lower levels, although how much of that is due to the personal story is anyone's guess.

[Milkshake.4370]

@Randulf.7614 said:We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but the impression I've had is that the game generally does OK attracting new players and the personal story doesn't seem to put anyone off. Considering it's an 8 year+ mmo without a AAA name, it does pretty well in a declining part of the pc market. But, certainly regular players prob don't see a lot of evidence the core game puts many people off. In fact we see a lot of mixed feedback suggesting HoT is less popular than the core zones (I love the maps, many hate them)

Although we don't have access to their metrics, it is quite obvious intuitively that the numbers are not growing a lot and the game is very much underestimated/under the radar. It does not have the same presence as World of Warcraft, Elder Scrolls, Blade & Scroll, or any of those mega giants despite being comparable in content.

Marketing is poor. It always has been. The biggest barrier by far for new players is the fact so many don't know of the seasons between expansions and that they have to pay for them. The poor advertisement of this has been well documented

Yes sir!

LS2 is actually reasonably popular. Or at least accepted as being fine for what it was - ie clearing up the mess left behind by LS1 (Scarlet's War). It just lacks the production values of what came later. Omitting Season 2 would be a very bad idea

I disagree with this statement... yes perhaps omitting it entirely would be a bad idea, however I still stand by the fact that it should be restructured. I think some of the missions regarding Scarlett like going through her secret hideout can be omitted. There is nothing crucial there to the story moving forward.

I am unaware of any issue players have of finding out about expacs. In fact new players tend to go there first to get the mounts and gliders if all the forum posts we see are any indicationYes but the game is not intended to be played this way. The intent is to play through the story in full and reach the mounts when you reach that expansion. Players going ahead to get the mounts and gliders unlocked first is an even stronger indication that the game is flawed structurally. When I turn on a game, I should not have to jump to level 250 and then return to level 45. It doesn't make sense.

[Westenev.5289]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but the impression I've had is that the game generally does OK attracting new players and the personal story doesn't seem to put anyone off.

We don't have access to Anet's metrics, but NCSoft said back in 2015, when the core game went free to play, that the conversion of free players into paid players wasn't the expected one, thus leading to lower revenue than was projected at the time. So at the very least, NCSoft told us that the core game wasn't able to convert players, was this also true before Heart of Thorns we obviously don't know. The game does struggle to keep new players interested at the lower levels, although how much of that is due to the personal story is anyone's guess.

Personally, when I started, I almost quit when I picked up a sword and shield warrior as my first character. Preconcieved notions of how a class should play like "rangers are archers (so why does everyone kick me from the party?)" or "mesmer staff is pretty (useless)" will kill a new players fun much faster than a piecemeal story.

[kharmin.7683]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I find it to be quite subjective, though. For me, I don't believe that HoT made a turn for the better. I admire the work and complexity of HoT, but for me and several others that I know, HoT actually turned players away from GW2.

I agree that marketing could be a lot better, but it doesn't seem to me that Anet's budget allows for a higher focus on it.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Milkshake.4370" said:I know that the Scarlett content was important and a crucial aspect to the early game and the early GW2 player experience, however it is a huge setback and turn off for newer players.

I think a lot of players agree with you on this one, not having a crucial part of the game available is a huge turn off.

However, the key phrase you used:

I believe that the game "takes too long" to "get good".

If you found the core game and season 2 boring, then more than likely you'd find Season 1 boring too, especially since it will be missing it's most fun and engaging aspects (the big open world events). Also part of the charm of Season 1 was not knowing the big villain behind it all and speculate.

In other words, although missing Season 1 is bad, for players that disliked the story telling before Heart of Thorns, Season 1 has the potential to do more harm than good. As you essentially trade hours of boredom for a more cohesive story. I'm on the fence on this part myself.

Literally omitting the majority of Season 2 and only keeping the crucial storylines that lead up to HoT (Glint's Labyrinth, dragon eggs, dragon magic) would be better than what it is now. (Sorry original players or anyone who played through Scarlet's War, don't hate me).

To be honest, Season 2 is a waste of money for new players anyway. Remember that you need to buy it to unlock, at a very high cost considering it's just the story, the maps are always available. Compared to any episode of Seasons 3, 4 or 5, Season 2 is just a bad buy, only for completionists.

[Randulf.7614]

@Milkshake.4370 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:LS2 is actually reasonably popular. Or at least accepted as being fine for what it was - ie clearing up the mess left behind by LS1 (Scarlet's War). It just lacks the production values of what came later. Omitting Season 2 would be a very bad idea

I disagree with this statement... yes perhaps omitting it entirely would be a bad idea, however I still stand by the fact that it should be restructured. I think some of the missions regarding Scarlett like going through her secret hideout can be omitted. There is nothing crucial there to the story moving forward.

Omitting Scarlet's hideout is kind of a problem. It is a major part of the backstory for Scarlet and LS1. All her motivations, all her character background is contained in that hideout - all that was missing in the 18 months prior.

It really doesn't matter. They wont delete or restructure an entire season and they absolutely should not do it either. I certainly don't want bits of LS2 removed. There are some things you can say with confidence are not on the cards and this is on of them. I would like VA though for my toon and allowing achievements to unlock on a first run through with a given character. Neither of those are likely

I do however agree with this:

@maddoctor.2738 said:To be honest, Season 2 is a waste of money for new players anyway. Remember that you need to buy it to unlock, at a very high cost considering it's just the story, the maps are always available. Compared to any episode of Seasons 3, 4 or 5, Season 2 is just a bad buy, only for completionists.

I enjoy LS2 and it has some great fights and a better story than alot of the game (despite a few threads which go nohere), but I personally think LS2 should be free at this point and included either HoT or the core game. Given as said, the later seasons - as poor as I found the story to be - have a lot more work, lot more gameplay and a lot more presentation in them, LS2 is just buying some instances and achievements. The value is just not there in comparison

[Kiba.9743]

I agree, HoT was amazing. The story really had me immersed. Once I reached PoF, I had a hard time getting into it and after years, I am still trying to force my way through it. I do think that they should update the Lion's Arch setting on the Personal Story. You get sent there several times and it is still old Lion's Arch, for a new player, it might be a little puzzling. Just a detail that I think they should correct. I'm not sure how much time/money a seemingly minor update may take.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I can't agree with the assessment.
There are a lot of Jeremy Soule's music fans. (Not that Maclaine, Stan, Lena aren't wonderful composers, as well.)Many players have posted that Core Tyria's maps are their favorites, and that those maps offer the best map stories available.I'm not sure the Guild Wars franchise is as unknown as stated; it seems to be often listed on gaming sites/in articles about MMORPGs.
Many trailers (which is what was linked) show 'content' that is never seen in-game; that is not unusual.As many opinion posts there are pro-Heart of Thorns, there are probably just as many against.

Personally, I'm hoping End of Dragons is a bit more like Core Tyria, than HoT or Path of Fire. Of course, that's just me.

[Treacy.4067]

@"Milkshake.4370" said:I was truly only hooked after reaching Heart of Thorns.This is where the game takes a huge turn for the better. Absolutely everything is improved; music, sound design, world design, story, writing. Literally everything about this expansion was incredible, captivating, and immersive.

This was my experience as well. I started and stopped the game a few times, never fully getting into it, but then I reached Heart of Thorns and and everything just clicked. So much so that I stopped HoT, bought all the content I didn't have and then did the whole story in order.

The moment that got me was when I entered Verdant Brink and saw all the destruction with The Pact Laid Waste playing, that npc shouting "Commander, over here!" and seeing how layered the map was. That was when I realized how the maps including the events, npcs, music, sights, and sounds all tied directly into what was happening with the story so I finally "got" what the game was doing. Also, I got wrecked there so the added difficulty was exciting and made me want to play and get better.

[battledrone.8315]

hot is awful, and it cost them a lot of players and goodwill.and you will have a hard time finding a player, who likes both core and the expansions.they are basically 2 different games, and that is NOT the correct way to make an expansionabout the writing: what purpose was there to take a FLEET OF AIRSHIPS to a HOSTILE JUNGLE? what were they supposed to do there?air interdiction? strategic bombing? yea....

[Aenaos.8160]

I'm currently replaying the story on an Alt character and this is close to what I think too.

The thing about the Personal Story is that at some point, it got changed and kinda patched together in order to fit in the Story Journal, a feature introduced to the game at a later stage. During that process parts of the story were completely removed. LW s1 happened,, LA got destroyed, and the story got modified in order to compensate for that. It was all done haistily, and at times it just doesn't work at all. The result if one of very low quality. I kinda feel sorry for new players that will never get to play the Personal Story the way it was meant to be played.

If they don't mind losing info about the lore of the game, I would advise new players to play the opening parts of the story, and as soon as they get to the chapters involving Lions Arch, play the open maps, level to 80 and skip directly to LW season 2. Simply don't bother, especially if you value craftsmanship in games and pay attention to details. You will spend more time saying WTF, that anything else.

[battledrone.8315]

@Aenaos.8160 said:I'm currently replaying the story on an Alt character and this is close to what I think too.

The thing about the Personal Story is that at some point, it got changed and kinda patched together in order to fit in the Story Journal, a feature introduced to the game at a later stage. During that process parts of the story were completely removed. LW s1 happened,, LA got destroyed, and the story got modified in order to compensate for that. It was all done haistily, and at times it just doesn't work at all. The result if one of very low quality. I kinda feel sorry for new players that will never get to play the Personal Story the way it was meant to be played.

If they don't mind losing info about the lore of the game, I would advise new players to play the opening parts of the story, and as soon as they get to the chapters involving Lions Arch, play the open maps, level to 80 and skip directly to LW season 2. Simply don't bother, especially if you value craftsmanship in games and pay attention to details. You will spend more time saying kitten, that anything else.

the core story is very basic, but at least its FUNCTIONAL. dragon bad, now go and kill.hot: we go to mordys jungle, and kill him, but only after the loss of many lives. we are basically the evil invaders (and very poor ones at that)yay...

[Teratus.2859]

@"Milkshake.4370" said:Omitted Content Detracts New PlayersFirstly, I must say that I really enjoyed playing through all the episodes of GW2 however, I was truly only hooked after reaching Heart of Thorns.I am originally a console gamer and only now started getting into PC gaming and I feel that the first half of GW2 (Level 1-80 + Living World S2) is not on parr with the modern gaming world. I understand that the game was just starting out at this point and did not have a high budget, however I feel this may be a reason why the game is struggling to attract new players.

I've called out this problem in the past as well and feel like Gw2's early game content, specifically the personal Story, Lw1 and Lw2 could benefit from a sort of "remaster" update.I know this would be a huge workload for the developers and it would take a lot of time but honestly.. this is something I want and have wanted for years almost as badly as I want new expansion content, no joke.. i'm dead serious on that and have said multiple times in the past that I am 100% willing to suffer a massive new content drought so the devs can work on improving the early game content.

What I think needs to be done.. honestly is not all that much but would be a lot of work.First of all Vanilla Gw2 needs a bit of a difficulty buff in the later game regions (like Orr) to balance it out more with the years of power creep the game has had.Atm it's far too easy for players to get complacent with some build they pulled off a website somewhere and not really knowing how to play it right can still steamroll through content until they hit the difficulty spike in HoT.. which usually results in angry posts here about how hard HoT is despite the countless nerfs the content has had to reduce that.The problem is that nothing prepares you for HoT.. that's why the spike exists and always will exist, and that's a flaw with the Vanilla GW2's end game content.The core game needs to do a better job at encouraging players to learn their classes.. experiment with the build system etc and making the end game pve content a bit harder to bridge that difficulty gap with HoT might just be what the core game needs.

Secondly the personal story needs to be remastered and brought upto par with HoT.How I imagine this to be done is by scrapping the existing "cutscene" dialogue segments and replacing them with the same style of in game dialogue that has become the normal standard of storytelling in Gw2 since HoT came out.Since the dialogue is already voiced and in game I don't think this is an impossible thing to do.. it's just very time consuming but I believe it would absolutely be worth doing.I am fine with much of the text based dialogue remaining as it is for the personal story however I would not oppose new voiced dialogue replacing a bunch of it either.

Thirdly Living world 2 content could use some additional voice work to bring it upto par with HoT onwards, there is a bit too much reliance on text in lw2 imo and I think that could be remedied by having some new voiced dialogue done to replace some of it.Additional note:I also agree with those who say that season 2 is a bad buy compared to other seasons, you're not getting new masteries, new mounts, new maps or anything of the sort with season 2 like you do with season 3 and 4 so what you are paying for is pretty much just the story content and a few achievements.This is a problem and could very well leave some players feeling like they wasted their money on this season which could be a red flag for them not to buy any more content for Gw2.. a bad bad bad! attitude for them to develop.I agree this season needs to either become free to play or should be included free with the HoT expansion.

Lastly and most importantly, Living world 1 needs to be re-introduced into the game as replayable content.. this one alone is by far the biggest sin for Gw2.I am never going to stop banging this drum.This story content not being in the game is a huge problem for me as someone who cares about the story of this game and having this huge hole in the story bothers me immensely and has done for many years.Re-adding LW1 needs to be a high priority imo and should Anet ever do a big remaster of the core game with all the dialogue upgrade's ect that I think they should then these also need to be applied to the LW1 remaster as well.

These few changes are pretty much the only things I really want for the pre HoT game and I would be more than content with this content if it ever got these upgrades.

It is difficult to follow or invest into a story, especially when you feel you have started in the middle. Especially the missions where players have to go through Scarlett's belongings, secret hideout, and follow her trail, her memories. I did not know who Scarlett was and the short recap provided in game was not enough to create a fulfilling experience to me as a new player.I think this is a huge huge turn off for newer players.

I agree, this bothers me as well even though I played and experienced the entire LW1 content.This is the main reason I am never going to stop supporting the remaster/reintroduction of LW1 content into the game.. it is as/more important to me than any new content coming to the game and the more new content they add the more annoying this giant hole in the story is to me.

Heart Of Thorns (HoT)This is where the game takes a huge turn for the better. Absolutely everything is improved; music, sound design, world design, story, writing. Literally everything about this expansion was incredible, captivating, and immersive. The only reason I played to get to HoT was because I saw my partner playing this expansion and it was very different from Level 1-80 and LWS2. If I was a newer player, I would never have paid for this expansion or even gotten to it based off of the experience I had with the gameplay prior. Somebody in my guild compared this to a restaurant, which forces the patrons to eat an entire loaf of bread before giving them the ordered food. Some people are full after the loaf of bread, most people don't even finish it and get to their meal. I think that this may be a source for the dwindling GW2 new player numbers and ArenaNet's revenue. There is very little encouragement or incentive for new players to purchase expansions or spend money on the game, when the initial opening content is so boring and slow. This sets an incorrect precedent and expectation for what the paid expansions will be.

Again I agree and still blame the core game's lacking endgame content for this problem.By the time you get to HoT you should be playing at the level required to not get massacred by everything in that content but the core game and LW2 to some extent as well does an atrocious job at preparing you for HoT.

Fixing the core games endgame and upping it's difficulty would be the best solution to this problem imo and get people wanting more.

Living World Season 4 - INCREDIBLE but Lack of Marketing?As the game progresses after HoT, it keeps getting better and better. With more mastery points and mounts, the story, sound design, and music reaches incredible potential and structure. If I wanted to get people to play the game, I would be pushing and screaming for them to play Heart of Thorns, Path of Fire, or Living World Season 4. I don't understand why ArenaNet hasn't pushed for certain aspects of these expansions in their marketing campaigns.

I don't know much about marketing etc but Living world 4 has been by far my favourite content in Gw2.Some of the best Gw2 moments imo are in LW4 and I disagree severely with those who claim that season 4 was hot garbage or a big disappointment.. I love this season.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You don't think the restrictions on Play4Free accounts is an incentive to buy expansions? Or that said restrictions is what 'turns players off'?I'd guess seeing/hearing about what other players have acquired via expansion content is a pretty big enticement. Much more than content/maps/story they've never seen.

Also, no matter where the demarcation line is between 'core' and 'more difficult content, (newer) players will balk and lament the higher difficulty. I'm not sure it would help to just change 'end-game Core Tyria maps'. (Just like Orr maps were changed for this reason, long ago.)

[Teratus.2859]

@battledrone.8315 said:hot is awful, and it cost them a lot of players and goodwill.and you will have a hard time finding a player, who likes both core and the expansions.they are basically 2 different games, and that is NOT the correct way to make an expansionabout the writing: what purpose was there to take a FLEET OF AIRSHIPS to a HOSTILE JUNGLE? what were they supposed to do there?air interdiction? strategic bombing? yea....

That was pretty much their plan.. bomb the ever loving hell out of Mordremoth with overwhelming force.Mordy threw a vine in that plan though.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Teratus.2859 said:The problem is that nothing prepares you for HoT.. that's why the spike exists and always will exist, and that's a flaw with the Vanilla GW2's end game content.

Season 1 and the original (pre-nerf) Season 2 did a very good job preparing players for HoT. The problem is that the first doesn't exist anymore and the second is behind a paywall plus it was nerfed when HoT launched. This means a player that buys POF, gets HOT free and moves from Orr into Verdant Brink and gets hit by a massive difficulty spike.

I don't think Orr is the problem, remember that new players will play around Orr, including Cursed Shore, with green and maybe rare gear and some assorted exotics from playing the personal story, so buffing the difficulty of Orr isn't going to work. What is needed is the content between core and expansions become completely free with purchase (Season 2) so players are directed to Dry Top / Silverwastes once they are done with Zhaitan, instead of Verdant Brink. I know those maps are available without purchase of Season 2, but the story doesn't lead you there.

[battledrone.8315]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:hot is awful, and it cost them a lot of players and goodwill.and you will have a hard time finding a player, who likes both core and the expansions.they are basically 2 different games, and that is NOT the correct way to make an expansionabout the writing: what purpose was there to take a FLEET OF AIRSHIPS to a HOSTILE JUNGLE? what were they supposed to do there?air interdiction? strategic bombing? yea....

That was pretty much their plan.. bomb the ever loving hell out of Mordremoth with overwhelming force.Mordy threw a vine in that plan though.

so it was a sneak attack against an unknown enemy in their own territory? do i have to point out how stupid that is?any competent commander would had refused. any sane person with a sense of morale would had done the same.it was a stupid and evil plan, and they actually deserved to die.even spongebob would had done better, we are talking patrick levels of stupidity here

[Yggranya.5201]

@"Westenev.5289" said:It was the same back in 2015 - you'd finish the level 80 story, then move onto lws2 wondering what happened to Destinys Edge and why you're on a team with a goth, a egirl, a norn Thackery and a zojja knockoff whose voice is extremely familiar if you play other games. Who knows what people think nowadays when you jump straight from PS to HoT or PoF expecting answers.

Despite this, Lws2 had its moments - cannach and annise were a fun combination, and the dragon fight on the pale tree was pretty cool. But, I digress, I don't see it aging well after having played HoT or PoF era content, and playing it just causes more questions about lws1.

I started slightly before/after HoT released and after the core story i went straight to HoT, and during the prologue where you meet all the relevant characters, i was like "who are these people and why does the commander act like he knows them, like you've worked together before?". Still, even if i got ls2 for free, i wouldn't have completed it since i don't want to play as some other character, and least of all as caithe.

@battledrone.8315 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@battledrone.8315 said:hot is awful, and it cost them a lot of players and goodwill.and you will have a hard time finding a player, who likes both core and the expansions.they are basically 2 different games, and that is NOT the correct way to make an expansionabout the writing: what purpose was there to take a FLEET OF AIRSHIPS to a HOSTILE JUNGLE? what were they supposed to do there?air interdiction? strategic bombing? yea....

That was pretty much their plan.. bomb the ever loving hell out of Mordremoth with overwhelming force.Mordy threw a vine in that plan though.

so it was a sneak attack against an unknown enemy in their own territory? do i have to point out how stupid that is?any competent commander would had refused. any sane person with a sense of morale would had done the same.it was a stupid and evil plan, and they actually deserved to die.even spongebob would had done better, we are talking patrick levels of stupidity here

Remember how the commander handed the world on a silver platter to an elder dragon after helping it reach never before seen levels of power along with immortality? Yeah, the story is really stupid. Only thing to make aurene less all consuming is a retcon or a hundred.

[Naxos.2503]

As Randulf said, I dont think there is a problem of attracting new players. Spending 5 hours in any of the races beginners areas is typically a good way to gauge interest. The prevalence for human characters and Sylvari characters has not changed either..

I find a lot of players drop off at key times : End of the personal story definitely is one of them. I cant exactly explain it, I just see guildies and friends stop logging in after they finish their story and reach level 80. I dont think much can be done on the matter, it seems to be as much from rushing fatigue as anything else. I've seen some get discouraged at the perspective of continuing onto more "end game" activities for various reasons. For players who feel disinterested in the game, level 25/30 is where it tend to happen. Others simply feel they'd rather not engage the expansion yet, and never come round to actually do it.

Dungeons get new players interested out of a novelty factor, many ignore there are actually armors and weapons to claim from doing them until much later on. Fractals generate an interest until agony res enters the fray, then some people get discouraged by the lack of immediate way to get it. Raids are obviously a no go, less because they're hard, and more because it's handicapped by it's reputation (IE : hard content, demanding playstyle, and unforgiving squads), the concept of training squads has more or less disappeared from players minds, as a result their demand has dropped, and so has it's supply.Players without expansions tend to not engage deeply into PvP and WvW either, as everyone tend to tell them the meta relies on Elite specs. When it comes to WvW, it is further impacted by whether said players are on a server that is well furnished and manages well.

On the plus side, I see roughly the same amount of players on Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire maps, with a small advantage to Heart of Thorns maps because of more clearly defined metas, which many still partake in. On Path of Fire maps, the draw is mostly Bounties, and bounty trains are few and far between, and often end without all bounties cleared. There are however a similar amount of roamers and exploring players.

On the living story maps it's a different story though. Aside from Lake Dorric, there arent many players hovering around the living story 3 maps. Living story 4 still attract a fairly good amount of players all around. Icebrood saga maps also draw a good crowd still, enough to complete their metas without much difficulties. Strike missions are another matter it would seem. Squads for them are few and far between.

Overall, I dont think it necessarily has anything to do about the storyline itself, but the sheer amount of content, and whether or not it is gated to a player fresh off of Personal Story. I will put it out there that to me, making the instant level 80 item accessible to anyone even if they haven't completed the personal story is a mistake. Too many players get burned by it. They get a "strong" character that they do not know how to play, and have the impression that the game balance is rubbish because of their first steps into a more unforgiving gameplay. It has it's uses and should still exist, but need to be tweaked so that players are incentivized to learn elementary combat gameplay first. The missing Living Story Season 1 -is- a cause of confusion and awkwardness from new players, especially players actually following the storyline. They end the personal story, and get thrown in with a team of NPCs that appear to know them, but they feel no connection to them. They feel as if they've been dropped off in the middle of something interesting, and missed half of it. It is a Really bad feeling.Lastly, I dont think it is a necessarily bad thing that players drop off after playing 15% of the game. Some people love the gameplay, others only tolerate it. That is certainly more the case for free to play players than for expansion players, simply because they do not feel like they have to justify their purchase. Free to play players can simply move on to something that fits their immediate desires better. Interestingly, those that Do continue playing onward onto the expansions invariably get better at the game, as the expansions adds a deeper level of gameplay and difficulty, and most players learn from it and adapt, which is essentially what you want to do for any hard content from that point on.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@battledrone.8315 said:hot is awful, and it cost them a lot of players and goodwill.and you will have a hard time finding a player, who likes both core and the expansions.they are basically 2 different games, and that is NOT the correct way to make an expansion

Hey, you're still here! I was wondering if you'd show up to bash HoT some more lol.

about the writing: what purpose was there to take a FLEET OF AIRSHIPS to a HOSTILE JUNGLE? what were they supposed to do there?air interdiction? strategic bombing? yea....

I agree that the strategy is utterly stupid, but it's not the worst bit of writing. I think it accurately reflects what the first Tyrian organization with an air fleet would have done, especially if that fleet won its first major battle with an air strategy. I further think the story would sound a lot less dumb if they had us follow the Pact on a more sincere scouting effort prior to sending in the fleet, and Mordremoth deceived the Pact by hiding the power and range of his airship-killing vines.

As for the original topic, I'm inclined to (1) agree that the assessment of core game pacing is accurate, but (2) disagree that changing it is the key to new player attraction and retention.

Before we go any further: I 100% agree @"Milkshake.4370" that living world season 1 leaves one of the absolute worst story gaps I've ever experienced in any game. Currently the best solution I think ANet could offer is to direct people to Wooden Potatoes' LWS1 recap. The in-game "catch-up" is an absolute joke, and is almost worse than not attempting to patch the hole at all.

I think the only kind of player who can stick around GW2 for an appreciable period of time is the player that excels at finding their own fun, rather than relying on directed content. Of course, "finding your own fun" is the key to longevity in any MMO, but it's just that much more important for GW2 since we lack vertical progression. Since every meaningful system in the game is easy to cap, you quickly run out of gameplay or character improvement reasons to keep playing. You have to have found something completely sidebar or optional to keep your attention.

I would argue that the vast majority of players who can't find something deeply compelling about Tyria prior to reaching HoT will ultimately not find it in either expansion, and getting them to the expacs faster will only lead them to move onto another game faster.