EoD expansion should have new RAID

[Cyninja.2954]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

I doubt most players who raid ever considered being in the majority. This is a niche mode.

That said, completion % of story achievements (as far as we can measure them via gw2efficiency), while higher than raid completion, are also still a large niche. In fact most players don't do either of both. What is worse though for story achievements, their completion % declines a lot as seasons continue, which is indicative of players losing interest or dropping out of the game.

The amount of players in a guild which raid or not raid is not representative. What is relevant what type of guild it is and at what state players are. In case of a new player friendly guild, it is not unlikely that most players would not raid. The only relevant question would be: how many players stay with the game long-term without wanting to raid or with only engaging with the story and which content keeps players engaged the longest.

I personally enjoy both and have been engaging in both. Personally I preferred the past approach of having occasional raid or fractal content deliver, while keeping story and season episode achievements light and breezy for in-between or relaxation, a better approach to what we have currently.

@Vayne.8563 said:What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

Agreed. I doubt a majority of players would raid, and neither should they. For me personally the question has always been: how much value do raids add to the game. Not only for players who enjoy the content, but potentially players who might join the content or simply having a diverse group of players in open world events.

@Vayne.8563 said:I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Again agreed. Though I am not sure if story development is not simply the easiest way to add content (not least resource intensive, but easiest). It also give the best feel of the game seeing support and development. We could get a full set of 8 new dungeons right now, and a vast majority of players would not even notice. What would be noticed is not having a new episode be deployed every 2 months.

[Vayne.8563]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

I doubt most players who raid ever considered being in the majority. This is a niche mode.

That said, completion % of story achievements (as far as we can measure them via gw2efficiency), while higher than raid completion, are also still a large niche. In fact most players don't do either of both. What is worse though for story achievements, their completion % declines a lot as seasons continue, which is indicative of players losing interest or dropping out of the game.

The amount of players in a guild which raid or not raid is not representative. What is relevant what type of guild it is and at what state players are. In case of a new player friendly guild, it is not unlikely that most players would not raid. The only relevant question would be: how many players stay with the game long-term without wanting to raid or with only engaging with the story and which content keeps players engaged the longest.

I personally enjoy both and have been engaging in both. Personally I preferred the past approach of having occasional raid or fractal content deliver, while keeping story and season episode achievements light and breezy for in-between or relaxation, a better approach to what we have currently.

@Vayne.8563 said:What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

Agreed. I doubt a majority of players would raid, and neither should they. For me personally the question has always been: how much value do raids add to the game. Not only for players who enjoy the content, but potentially players who might join the content or simply having a diverse group of players in open world events.

@Vayne.8563 said:I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Again agreed. Though I am not sure if story development is not simply the easiest way to add content (not least resource intensive, but easiest). It also give the best feel of the game seeing support and development. We could get a full set of 8 new dungeons right now, and a vast majority of players would not even notice. What would be noticed is not having a new episode be deployed every 2 months.

Context is everything. I was replying to a guy who actually asked who was just going to play for story and some fashion items. My guess is a lot more people than that guy thinks.

I don't come into threads and state no one raids. I respond to people who imply that more people are interested in challenging content than say mundane story and killing and collecting. My argument is refuting a statement that implies a reality that i don't agree with, nothing more.

I don't really care at this point if raids are added to the game or not. It's not the hill I choose to die on. But I won't sit idly by while someone implies that a lot of people don't play for story and fashion. I didn't mention achievements even once.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"yukarishura.4790" said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

[Lonami.2987]

@"yukarishura.4790" said:It's been ages since we had a new RAID. I think the expansion should be providing challenging end-game content again, given the failure of strikes and DRMs...I personally think that raids and fractal CMs keep the game alive, (Sunqua is a great addition), because casuals just log in to play through the story and some events and leave, but RAIDING has built a nice dedicated community, there are discords/guilds that specialize on raiding. This game type cannot be ignored, it gives the full fetched combat experience of the elite specs that you cannot really enjoy in open world etc. Please ANET, new RAID.

Every dedicated story instance should be either a dungeon (5-man), a raid (10-man), or open world content. As such, I hope EoD's finale is a raid, and not a "play once and forget" story instance that wastes resources away by pretending GW2 is a single player game instead of an actual MMORPG.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Lonami.2987 said:

LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Wait what? I haven't checked recently since I run with guildies or use the LFG. Last I heard the auto grouping features are dead and nobody uses them in strikes? Is this different for DRMs?

[maddoctor.2738]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Wait what? I haven't checked recently since I run with guildies or use the LFG. Last I heard the auto grouping features are dead and nobody uses them in strikes? Is this different for DRMs?

Public Strike Missions and DRMs depend on the daily. If it's the daily you can get people for both, if it's not then it's a deserted wasteland.Also: wait until we are 2 years later and see just how many (if any) are still running DRMs

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

No, I'm not missing your point ... your point simply doesn't make sense. Saying things like "Fashion Wars is a mistake" is nonsense because skins are rewards in this game for doing content and that skin-rewarding content INCLUDES raids. Playing the game to get reward that might be a skin IS playing the game ... and it happens to be a significant portion of the players in the game that DO play this game for things like skins, novelties, etc. Ironically EVEN RAIDERS do raids for those kinds of rewards so obviously you don't know the game and it's players as well as you seem to think you do to make a proper argument for the more raid development. If skins were not a popular reward in this game ... we wouldn't have them ... the SAME reason we don't have new raids (GEE ... that's a common theme isn't it!)

Again, you want Anet to add more raids but you seem to advocate doing so according to how your views result in a shrinking target audience with meta think and opinion about what is a proper definition of 'playing the game'. With your exclusive views, do you really think you are actually a good champion of raid development? I don't.

[Linken.6345]

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"yukarishura.4790" said:It's been ages since we had a new RAID. I think the expansion should be providing challenging end-game content again, given the failure of strikes and DRMs...I personally think that raids and fractal CMs keep the game alive, (Sunqua is a great addition), because casuals just log in to play through the story and some events and leave, but RAIDING has built a nice dedicated community, there are discords/guilds that specialize on raiding. This game type cannot be ignored, it gives the full fetched combat experience of the elite specs that you cannot really enjoy in open world etc. Please ANET, new RAID.

Every dedicated story instance should be either a dungeon (5-man), a raid (10-man), or open world content. As such, I hope EoD's finale is a raid, and not a "play once and forget" story instance that wastes resources away by pretending GW2 is a single player game instead of an actual MMORPG.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Why cant it be both a solo story and another mode of same instance with 10 man content you can repeat each week.Best of both worlds imo

[mindcircus.1506]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game.Not to mention that this "fashion war" is won in the gemstore.

[Obtena.7952]

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game.Not to mention that this "fashion war" is won in the gemstore.

... or by doing game content that includes raids, contrary to the point he's trying to make.

Look ... no one is going to make a compelling argument for revisiting raid development because 'skins' aren't content ... ESPECAILLY considering skins are rewards from raiding ... so what do you think you're accomplishing here? It's absurd. I mean, you do realize you are arguing against the very thing that enables Anet to develop raids right?

[Lonami.2987]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"yukarishura.4790" said:It's been ages since we had a new RAID. I think the expansion should be providing challenging end-game content again, given the failure of strikes and DRMs...I personally think that raids and fractal CMs keep the game alive, (Sunqua is a great addition), because casuals just log in to play through the story and some events and leave, but RAIDING has built a nice dedicated community, there are discords/guilds that specialize on raiding. This game type cannot be ignored, it gives the full fetched combat experience of the elite specs that you cannot really enjoy in open world etc. Please ANET, new RAID.

Every dedicated story instance should be either a dungeon (5-man), a raid (10-man), or open world content. As such, I hope EoD's finale is a raid, and not a "play once and forget" story instance that wastes resources away by pretending GW2 is a single player game instead of an actual MMORPG.

@Ayrilana.1396 said:LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Why cant it be both a solo story and another mode of same instance with 10 man content you can repeat each week.Best of both worlds imo

That's what scaling is for, both Forging Steel and Dragon Response Missions adapt to the party's size. Enable that just for the easy mode, and you're ready to go.

Story instances should disappear altogether, they're a waste of time and resources.

[HotDelirium.7984]

They should have a version between what a raid wing is and a strike mission. Best of both worlds. Long enough to satisfy but not hard enough to where the majority of players can be successful. At the end of the day, you want to create content most people will continue to play.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

No, I'm not missing your point ... your point simply doesn't make sense. Saying things like "Fashion Wars is a mistake" is nonsense because skins are

rewards

in this game for

doing

content and that skin-rewarding content INCLUDES raids. Playing the game to get reward that might be a skin IS playing the game ... and it happens to be a significant portion of the players in the game that DO play this game for things like skins, novelties, etc. Ironically EVEN RAIDERS do raids for those kinds of rewards so obviously you don't know the game and it's players as well as you seem to think you do to make a proper argument for the more raid development. If skins were not a popular reward in this game ... we wouldn't have them ... the SAME reason we don't have new raids (GEE ... that's a common theme isn't it!)

Again, you want Anet to add more raids but you seem to advocate doing so according to how your views result in a shrinking target audience with meta think and opinion about what is a proper definition of 'playing the game'. With your exclusive views, do you really think you are actually a

good

champion of raid development? I don't.

like I said, reread my comment, skins are not content, with this I mean the gemstore, also you are going against your argument of raids being a failed content since now you claim people play them to earn skins, so whatever

my argument for dummies: skins are rewards, nice and all to have that cool dhuum oblivion scythe, BUT that is JUST AN EXTRA TO PLAYING THE WING 5 RAID, SAME AS WITH ACHIEVEMENTS in the WING 5

next you are gonna tell me raiders do raids for the achievements, not for the fun

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

No, I'm not missing your point ... your point simply doesn't make sense. Saying things like "Fashion Wars is a mistake" is nonsense because skins are

rewards

in this game for

doing

content and that skin-rewarding content INCLUDES raids. Playing the game to get reward that might be a skin IS playing the game ... and it happens to be a significant portion of the players in the game that DO play this game for things like skins, novelties, etc. Ironically EVEN RAIDERS do raids for those kinds of rewards so obviously you don't know the game and it's players as well as you seem to think you do to make a proper argument for the more raid development. If skins were not a popular reward in this game ... we wouldn't have them ... the SAME reason we don't have new raids (GEE ... that's a common theme isn't it!)

Again, you want Anet to add more raids but you seem to advocate doing so according to how your views result in a shrinking target audience with meta think and opinion about what is a proper definition of 'playing the game'. With your exclusive views, do you really think you are actually a

good

champion of raid development? I don't.

like I said, reread my comment, skins are not content, with this I mean the gemstore

I can assure you, the depth of your comment only requires it to be read once to understand that it has no relevance to the discussion because no one claimed skins or the gemstore were content in the first place. That's simply just some statement you made to flippantly dismiss what was a very cogent argument made by someone else.

also you are going against your argument of raids being a failed content since now you claim people play them to earn skins, so whatever

That doesn't make sense. The fact that raids are not successful enough to continue being developed has nothing to do with the fact that people can earn skins as a reward from raiding. My point is quite intact in fact; if anything the fact that these kinds of rewards, successfully used to entice players to other parts of the game that continue to be developed, doesn't get the same result of enticing enough people for raids is just more evidence that raids aren't successful content. Why are the rewards in raiding not encouraging enough people to play them when similar rewards do so in many other places? Oh right ... because raids are implemented without considering the playerbase. Even the allure of legendary armor is barely encouraging people to do raids. Yeah ... that's a big fail ... and it's evident by the fact that we don't have more raids being developed.

skins are rewards, nice and all to have that cool dhuum oblivion scythe, BUT that is JUST AN EXTRA TO PLAYING THE WING 5 RAID, SAME AS WITH ACHIEVEMENTS in the WING 5

How you view rewards has no relation if the way Anet runs their business is a mistake. If anything, Anet's continued efforts to provide skins as rewards in content INCLUDING RAIDS or as purchasable items in the GS is evidence contrary to your view that fashion wars is a mistake. Again, it's a 'mistake' that makes this a successful business for Anet. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see a focus on skins and we wouldn't have 'fashion wars'.

You need to check yourself in here; your view of how the game should work is NOT the one determining the direction of GW2, nor is that view obviously related to a successful business model for GW2 . You seem to think Anet is willing to waste their time doing things they don't think will be worth developing in the game. That's not true. Skins as rewards in raids is ONE example of that. You seem to think that your view is necessary somehow. That's also not true.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Wait what? I haven't checked recently since I run with guildies or use the LFG. Last I heard the auto grouping features are dead and nobody uses them in strikes? Is this different for DRMs?It's different for DRMs, but only because you

can

succeed at those in a public group with no problem (frankly, i don't even know if it's possible to fail most of them - i think only Thunderhead Keep's boss actually resets if everyone wipes). Also, public DRMs scale to the number of players, and are doable even if you'll get noone else in the instance.

Public queue for the harder of strikes however... well, let's say i would not recommend the experience.

[Astralporing.1957]

@yukarishura.4790 said:like I said, reread my comment, skins are not content, with this I mean the gemstore, also you are going against your argument of raids being a failed content since now you claim people play them to earn skins, so whatever

my argument for dummies: skins are rewards, nice and all to have that cool dhuum oblivion scythe, BUT that is JUST AN EXTRA TO PLAYING THE WING 5 RAID, SAME AS WITH ACHIEVEMENTS in the WING 5

next you are gonna tell me raiders do raids for the achievements, not for the funWell, I only played raids for the legendary armor and few other skins i wanted. If i had any path to those that would actually be fun, (or at the very least less unfun), i'd definitely pick that one over raids. And i wasn't the only one such a person.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:

LFR wouldn't resolve anything and would be a complete mess to implement.

Public strike missions and dragon response missions are doing great, same concept can be used for easy mode raids.

Wait what? I haven't checked recently since I run with guildies or use the LFG. Last I heard the auto grouping features are dead and nobody uses them in strikes? Is this different for DRMs?It's different for DRMs, but only because you

can

succeed at those in a public group with no problem (frankly, i don't even know if it's possible to fail most of them - i think only Thunderhead Keep's boss actually resets if everyone wipes). Also, public DRMs scale to the number of players, and are doable even if you'll get noone else in the instance.

Public queue for the harder of strikes however... well, let's say i would not recommend the experience.

Ah, well as long as it works. Yes, it makes sense that harder content would see less use. I just didn't imagine easier content was seeing use.

That's pretty cool. If it benefits players getting together and playing together, good for the game. That's the most important thing after all.

Maybe approaching this similar to WoW is a good intermediate way. Auto grouping for easy content, custom grouping for more difficult content. Now all we would need is a reworked LFG which helps in party creation.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Strike are working because theyre extremely easy, but this is not good reference for "content", strikes are just making their job that is make very new ppl learn whats stack and dps are for(lolz).

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:They should have a version between what a raid wing is and a strike mission. Best of both worlds. Long enough to satisfy but not hard enough to where the majority of players can be successful. At the end of the day, you want to create content most people will continue to play.

this "mid term" already exists, that is fractals.

[Obtena.7952]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:Strike are working because theyre extremely easy, but this is not good reference for "content", strikes are just making their job that is make very new ppl learn whats stack and dps are for(lolz).

let's put it this way ... if it's true that strikes 'work' and raids don't, then that is really indicative of the threshold that exists for successful, instanced team content to the playerbase.

[maddoctor.2738]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Strike are working

Let me stop you there and tell you that they aren't.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

No, I'm not missing your point ... your point simply doesn't make sense. Saying things like "Fashion Wars is a mistake" is nonsense because skins are

rewards

in this game for

doing

content and that skin-rewarding content INCLUDES raids. Playing the game to get reward that might be a skin IS playing the game ... and it happens to be a significant portion of the players in the game that DO play this game for things like skins, novelties, etc. Ironically EVEN RAIDERS do raids for those kinds of rewards so obviously you don't know the game and it's players as well as you seem to think you do to make a proper argument for the more raid development. If skins were not a popular reward in this game ... we wouldn't have them ... the SAME reason we don't have new raids (GEE ... that's a common theme isn't it!)

Again, you want Anet to add more raids but you seem to advocate doing so according to how your views result in a shrinking target audience with meta think and opinion about what is a proper definition of 'playing the game'. With your exclusive views, do you really think you are actually a

good

champion of raid development? I don't.

like I said, reread my comment, skins are not content, with this I mean the gemstore

I can assure you, the depth of your comment only requires it to be read once to understand that it has no relevance to the discussion because no one claimed skins or the gemstore were content in the first place. That's simply just some statement you made to flippantly dismiss what was a very cogent argument made by someone else.

also you are going against your argument of raids being a failed content since now you claim people play them to earn skins, so whatever

That doesn't make sense. The fact that raids are not successful enough to continue being developed has nothing to do with the fact that people can earn skins as a reward from raiding. My point is quite intact in fact; if anything the fact that these kinds of rewards, successfully used to entice players to other parts of the game that continue to be developed, doesn't get the same result of enticing enough people for raids is just more evidence that raids aren't successful content. Why are the rewards in raiding not encouraging enough people to play them when similar rewards do so in many other places? Oh right ... because raids are implemented without considering the playerbase. Even the allure of legendary armor is barely encouraging people to do raids. Yeah ... that's a big fail ... and it's evident by the fact that we don't have more raids being developed.

skins are rewards, nice and all to have that cool dhuum oblivion scythe, BUT that is JUST AN EXTRA TO PLAYING THE WING 5 RAID, SAME AS WITH ACHIEVEMENTS in the WING 5

How you view rewards has no relation if the way Anet runs their business is a mistake. If anything, Anet's continued efforts to provide skins as rewards in content INCLUDING RAIDS or as purchasable items in the GS is evidence contrary to your view that fashion wars is a mistake. Again, it's a 'mistake' that makes this a successful business for Anet. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see a focus on skins and we wouldn't have 'fashion wars'.

You need to check yourself in here; your view of how the game should work is NOT the one determining the direction of GW2, nor is that view obviously related to a successful business model for GW2 . You seem to think Anet is willing to waste their time doing things they don't think will be worth developing in the game. That's not true. Skins as rewards in raids is ONE example of that. You seem to think that your view is necessary somehow. That's also not true.

I literally said anet can monetize skins all they want in the GS and bring skins to the game as long as there is content to play, My reply was about a person who said they only plays for skins, which means that the content is not important for these people and only the end goal of having skins...

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:I will quit this game if we literally GET NO END GAME challenging content again. Who the hell is gonna play for a story and few cosmetics??

Most of the player base. Far more people than actually raid. People who love end game challenging content assume that they're in some sort of majority. They ask questions like who would play the game for story and a few cosmetics. That would be pretty much everyone in my guild. 90% of them at least. I mean we have probably five, six raiders in the guiild, but we have 350 people in the guild who don't raid. And this isn't an abberation.

What you consider to be the reason to play the game is just that, your reason to play the game. But let's not pretend most of the player base would just into raids just because a new raid happened to come with the expansion.

I always thought raids were a mistake in this game and I continue to think raids are a mistake in this game. But I"m relatively sure more people play for story and skins than play for raids and challenging end game PvE content. If that weren't the case, Anet wouldn't keep making it.

Nah, fashion wars was a mistake, this is a game, not a competition of who has the best looking in game skins, might as well go play dress up games then if you value how your character looks over playing the game. We see this industry practice in all games, IDC if GW2 also wants to monetize SKINS but where is THE CONTENT?

Gaming in 2021 everyone; "I play for skins"; skins are extra, they are not content

Nothing says a game can't be focused on things that don't appeal to you and make you conclude if it does, it's a mistake. The thing you claim is a mistake has made Anet a successful business that is sustainable for over 8 years with ongoing future. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to argue what has been successful for them is a mistake and that the solution to that mistake is more raids. If that was in any way true, this game wouldn't have made it to the first expansion. Again, it's not genuine to paint the picture that most people are 'wrong' for playing the game for 'fashion' because it suits your argument for more raids. Sounds to me like you aren't the targeted demographic for GW2. That's not a problem ... there are LOTS of games out there that do what you want Anet to do with GW2.

you are missing the entire point of my comment, re-read. skins are not playable content, skins are extras. Playing a game for skins = not playing the game

No, I'm not missing your point ... your point simply doesn't make sense. Saying things like "Fashion Wars is a mistake" is nonsense because skins are

rewards

in this game for

doing

content and that skin-rewarding content INCLUDES raids. Playing the game to get reward that might be a skin IS playing the game ... and it happens to be a significant portion of the players in the game that DO play this game for things like skins, novelties, etc. Ironically EVEN RAIDERS do raids for those kinds of rewards so obviously you don't know the game and it's players as well as you seem to think you do to make a proper argument for the more raid development. If skins were not a popular reward in this game ... we wouldn't have them ... the SAME reason we don't have new raids (GEE ... that's a common theme isn't it!)

Again, you want Anet to add more raids but you seem to advocate doing so according to how your views result in a shrinking target audience with meta think and opinion about what is a proper definition of 'playing the game'. With your exclusive views, do you really think you are actually a

good

champion of raid development? I don't.

like I said, reread my comment, skins are not content, with this I mean the gemstore

I can assure you, the depth of your comment only requires it to be read once to understand that it has no relevance to the discussion because no one claimed skins or the gemstore were content in the first place. That's simply just some statement you made to flippantly dismiss what was a very cogent argument made by someone else.

also you are going against your argument of raids being a failed content since now you claim people play them to earn skins, so whatever

That doesn't make sense. The fact that raids are not successful enough to continue being developed has nothing to do with the fact that people can earn skins as a reward from raiding. My point is quite intact in fact; if anything the fact that these kinds of rewards, successfully used to entice players to other parts of the game that continue to be developed, doesn't get the same result of enticing enough people for raids is just more evidence that raids aren't successful content. Why are the rewards in raiding not encouraging enough people to play them when similar rewards do so in many other places? Oh right ... because raids are implemented without considering the playerbase. Even the allure of legendary armor is barely encouraging people to do raids. Yeah ... that's a big fail ... and it's evident by the fact that we don't have more raids being developed.

skins are rewards, nice and all to have that cool dhuum oblivion scythe, BUT that is JUST AN EXTRA TO PLAYING THE WING 5 RAID, SAME AS WITH ACHIEVEMENTS in the WING 5

How you view rewards has no relation if the way Anet runs their business is a mistake. If anything, Anet's continued efforts to provide skins as rewards in content INCLUDING RAIDS or as purchasable items in the GS is evidence contrary to your view that fashion wars is a mistake. Again, it's a 'mistake' that makes this a successful business for Anet. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see a focus on skins and we wouldn't have 'fashion wars'.

You need to check yourself in here; your view of how the game should work is NOT the one determining the direction of GW2, nor is that view obviously related to a successful business model for GW2 . You seem to think Anet is willing to waste their time doing things they don't think will be worth developing in the game. That's not true. Skins as rewards in raids is ONE example of that. You seem to think that your view is necessary somehow. That's also not true.

I literally said anet can monetize skins all they want in the GS and bring skins to the game as long as there is content to play, My reply was about a person who said they only plays for skins, which means that the content is not important for these people and only the end goal of having skins...

You can't conclude people that play to get skins don't want content that is important to them or that the content they play isn't generally important to them. That doesn't make sense, otherwise 'skin-focused' players (and there are LOTS of them) would be doing raids to get skins ... I'm not sure that's the case. We just don't know either way. I'm betting that more 'skin-focused' players are rather casual, just because most people in this game are ... so probably NOT doing raids to get a skin or two. It's all connected.

That doesn't change what I'm telling you anyways ... the idea that skins is an endgame goal for some people doesn't make Anet's decision on how they choose to make content (or not make content like raids) a 'mistake'. If whatever Anet is looking at to make that decision tells them that skins are what lots of people want ... skins is what people are going get ... just like if whatever Anet is looking at to make that decision tells them that raids are things that lots of people don't want ... then they won't make that content.

Your logic here doesn't make sense ... you claim that many people want raids so Anet should make them ... but if you apply the same logic of "things should be ingame that people want" to things that ARE and CONTINUE to be ingame like skins, other content ... you claim the game shouldn't be about those things. Seems to me like you just say whatever you want to push your position.