EoD expansion should have new RAID

[Krzysztof.5973]

I fail to see how this whole argument against adding new raids to the game is a genuinely good idea. We are guaranteed to always have story content. Always. Raid Dev team was consistent of 5-10 people which doesn't drain a ton of resources in a company of few hundreds. Their type of skill in creating new encounters cannot be transferred into many other areas of the game like art design etc. They bring fresh ideas and mechanics that later are added to the rest of the game mode. Raids drive long-term engagement with the game among dedicated players that will play other type of content while waiting for raids. More of different types of content will bring higher variety of players into the game. All parts of the game should have an update with upcoming xpack, raids included.

Not to mention that I can't shake the feeling that raids would have been more successful if only they haven't named them "RAIDS". Some parts of this community likes to rub one off just because of negative experiences that are prevent in different MMOs that have raids. We have no gear upgrades acquired from raids that make you more powerful. It's literally just more challenging type of 10man content.

If ANet really never wanted to add raids ever again, they could just make an open statement. Instead raids live in perpetual limbo that is "on the table". Quite a ( insert kitten here ) move if you ask me. Fractals ride on the same wheelchair, we have no ( insert kitten here ) idea if we ever gonna get new fractal, even without CM. Again, not a matter WHEN, just knowing IF EVER.

You really must be a bad faith actor to deny more diverse content.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Must have been the really early days. For me 2 hours was generally enough for almost all dungeon paths (except Arah, where some paths could take longer than 2 hours) -and with a ton of time to spare (while 1 hour runs were pretty common, longer ones were actually rare - again, except for Arah, where the easiest path always took at least an hour).You could solo all arah paths except 4 in less than 1h.

Nah. That was simply the optimal solution, but by no means the only one. It wasn't the key to finishing the content. It was the key to finishing the content in the fastest time possible. And there has been a massive gap between those two, allowing for multitude of different approaches.Hint: do you know how much easier were casual runs if someone was running a bunker guardian that tended to attract a large part of aggro (and was actually able to survive that)? You can;t even imagine how easy Lupi, for example, turned out to be if you just managed to keep it on you while running in circles around the room, allowing others to safely range/revive themselves (even if attempting to melee him, as most HC groups did, was generally a suicide in a casual group. Would not recommend).

I dont think so. A bunker guard was just dead weight since healing was super low and a dps guard with wor and retreat did the same. The lupi strat you describe was basically average pug nightmare. It was much easier and faster to let your team die and solo it properly. Lupi was super easy if everyone would just melee with reflects. there were exactly 2 skills to dodge with very long animations. It was the ranged player who made it harder for everyone. forcing him to teleport all over the place.

On topic: I dont understand why Obtena argues about the failure of raids based purely on the perception of stopped development and anets good business decisions. They are not known for good business decisions and management. Not at all. LS season 4 was supposed to be the end of GW2. Thats when raid development stopped. Even fractal development stopped and they are just as dead as raids unless eod has something planned which i doubt.Icebrood saga clearly showed that you cant sustain a game with just living story. Hardcore modes are also the most watched on media by far. Close to nobody watches players pressing 1 in a ls meta. Anet has neglected those areas a lot while far more successful games like ff and wow didnt which gave them basically free marketing. Gw2 main marketing is reddit drama and shit storms. Not a lot of players in ff14 play savage or even ultimate raids but they are important for the game. The hardcore players are providing most of the content. Savage raids at least are a goal on the horizon even if not attempted.The raid event hosted by teapot was the biggest exposure gw2 had on Twitch for example next to big streamers playing for like 1day. Even bigger than pvp tournaments. It is very hard to pinpoint the value of content in an mmo. Number of players participating is a major contributor but not the only one. For me personally i would have quit the game years ago without Arcdps. Beating personal records is an important reason to play for many.Raids got murdered with the supposed end of GW2. The side projects got cancelled so they needed to continue with gw2. All they did was living story while neglecting all other content resulting in lowest revenue quarter gw2 ever had.In my opinion there needs to be something hard or a goal somewhere that promotes group and teamplay or just skill. Press 1 gameplay in open world maps with no interaction between the players is nothing that keeps a playerbase. This doesnt have to be raids but definitely more than living story episodes.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Obtena.7952 said:

I can't complete agree with that ... I already gave the example of Anet making a World Boss Teleporter for sale in the GS ... and that revenue stream is related to about as old and as OW content as you can get. If anything, I think scripted, repeatable content that is difficult for the average player is most likely to generate the shortest term and/or smallest revenues. I mean, if we want to talk about the content that generates the most revenue, that's likely going to be content where the revenue streams are most relevant ... and even though the storyline/LS content itself is short lived, their maps are not. Therefore, I would bet that content related to OW maps are where the money is.For me, the difference between long and short term health isn't related to the activities you can do ... because again, the game is targetted at people that don't have hours to play. The health is related to the items you can get from them. hence, we get legendary weapons and other 'long to get' things even though getting the mats for them are not linked to the activities that one normally attributes to end game or long term 'farming' kinds of group raids.

I think you are here to troll and not even play the game:

1. you claim LS maps are long lived sustainable content: LS3 AND LS4 maps are DEAD!
2. raids are CASUAL too, you do not have to do all bosses or all wings, you can even do the easiest ones, these people count as raiders too, trying it and failing too, its not about completion so the data is already flawed
3. again you give the argument of legendaries and committment, you cannot get legendary armor without raiding, which debunks your argument of raids failing, they do not since they are incentive enough to get the armor. If the game is targeted at people who do not have hours to play then why does drizzlewood meta take forever? DO YOU EVEN PLAY THE GAME?(?)

[yukarishura.4790]

Literally the only ones who buy build template expansions from the gem store are raiders

Everything that contributes to player retention contributes, at large, to gemstore engagement.Raiders want to look cool too. Fractal players love the convenience of the Mistlock Sanctuary. Everybody likes endless salvaging tools, etc.In fact, the more hardcore you play, the more need you have for bank expansion, bank tabs, inventory expansions, shared inventory slots, build slots etc.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:That's an argument we've had before. You say "neglect", but for me it just looked that the 9-month long development cycle was a result of Anet allocating just enough resources to raids the size of raid population (and revenue) warranted.

Yes we did have the argument before. The 9-month long development cycle was a result of that ridiculous decision to tie Raids (and everything else) to Living World releases. This meant Raid wings that were ready for release were postponed when Living World episodes were postponed (Long Live the Lich), or Raids were postponed for other scheduling issues (voice acting). It wasn't really a matter of resources, as Raid wings were generally ready to be released (in terms of development resources) sooner than their actual release window. Now what effect would 2-3 months earlier releases have, is anyone's guess.

Problem is, Raid community, to be sustainable, required way more resources than that. At some point Anet probably realized that they simply can't allocate enough resources for the community to be satisfied, and gave up on the project completely.

I don't think they allocated Raid resources to the living world because Raids weren't working. They allocated them because the living world wasn't working. Something that they regretted afterwards as the 2-month release cadence of episodes didn't work (revenue didn't climb up), while exhausting their resources. And murdering non living world content releases in the process. They identified that as a problem (with the launch of Season 4)

In fact, people were saying that right after Raids were first announced, before they were even implemented. The predictions from a number of people then was exactly that - that either Anet will go Raid-heavy, completely changing the direction of the game, satisfying raiders but losing support of the casual crowd, or Raids will not get enough resources to satisfy raid community, which, instead of being satisfied with slow reease schedule, will only get even more starved for new content, and angry at Anet for "not delivering".

Only going "raid-heavy" wasn't even needed to satisfy the Raid crowd

If Arenanet wanted to they could do the following:a) release Raid bosses individually, like when entering Bastion of the Penitent you fight only Cairn and the path up the slope is blocked. 2 weeks later, Mursaat Overseer and the area around the fight is added. And so on. Pacing and stability is important, you can't keep a static group going with uncertaintyb) release Raid bosses without "fluff". We do know that Wing 7 was delayed due to voice acting, something that has nothing to do with the actual Raid design. So let's release Raid wings without all that fluff, if neccessary and keep up the cadence. They don't add all the rewards with every release, so they could've easily dropped other "fluff" as well and add it later.c) communicate. Telling us about faster release cadence and then making the cadence slower wasn't going to be recieved well by the community, by any community really. This is something they are still struggling with ("we LOVE Fractals", they said, 7 months and still not even a mention about a new one)d) don't tie Raid releases with an unrelated schedule. This is something that Anet finally came to terms with and hopefully going forward we'll never experience it again with other types of content.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:Doable maybe if you are willing to spend the extra hour(s) on the configuration you claimed, but unlikely maintainable if you claim to clear all paths in most dungeons in under 2 hours. Unless I'm extremely unlucky or some players in your pugs were the minmaxer pulling the heavy lifting, especially in CoE.Given that casual players in pugs usually leave party after 2 wipes, it's uncommon that they would stick to the end to reach a successful outcome.It's all about how you treat other players. Casual players generally were not the ones to leave quickly after a wipe - it was the speedrunners/HC players that did so. If casuals did leave that fast, it generally means someone was slinging some snide comments at them.Yes, practically all the dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah, and Twilight Assault, but that one came later) were easily doable in a casual group in under 2 hours.CoE actually had only two problematic points (well, three - sometimes jumping lasers were a problem too :P). One was, obviously, Subject Alpha - unlike with most casual approaches, in this one you had to persuade other players to stack on top of him, or it could get nasty - and there was some Champion Abomination on one path that could pose a problem sometimes as well. Still, all those were manageable, so i'm not sure why you singled it out specifically - if i were to mention a most problematic dungeon with casual runners (outside of Arah), it would be CM, not CoE.

I believe we pugged dungeons with different intensity.Apparently. For one, i wonder, were you trying to adapt to more casual strats, or trying to make casuals adapt to the more HC ones you personally were more used to? That alone makes a massive difference, seeing as the latter rarely works.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:Doable maybe if you are willing to spend the extra hour(s) on the configuration you claimed, but unlikely maintainable if you claim to clear all paths in most dungeons in under 2 hours. Unless I'm extremely unlucky or some players in your pugs were the minmaxer pulling the heavy lifting, especially in CoE.Given that casual players in pugs usually leave party after 2 wipes, it's uncommon that they would stick to the end to reach a successful outcome.It's all about how you treat other players. Casual players generally were

not

the ones to leave quickly after a wipe - it was the speedrunners/HC players that did so. If casuals did leave that fast, it generally means someone was slinging some snide comments at them.Quite the contrary, casual players usually left not because they were offended by the party, but rather stating that they do not wish to overspent their time and effort on something that frustrate them with difficulty. Those who endured and willing to repeat the process beyond one completion eventually progress these players into the hardcore territory.The same could be said to Raid, which also involves the same process and progression, instead of the accusations you placed upon me.

Yes, practically all the dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah, and Twilight Assault, but that one came later) were easily doable in a casual group in under 2 hours.Then clearly either your group does not fully consist of casual players, or your experience with dungeons came much later when everything became much easier.

CoE actually had only two problematic points (well, three - sometimes jumping lasers were a problem too :P). One was, obviously, Subject Alpha - unlike with most casual approaches, in this one you had to persuade other players to stack on top of him, or it could get nasty - and there was some Champion Abomination on one path that could pose a problem sometimes as well. Still, all those were manageable, so i'm not sure why you singled it out specifically - if i were to mention a most problematic dungeon with casual runners (outside of Arah), it would be CM, not CoE.The stack strategy require relatively high damage output to take out Project Alpha before its damage eventually overcome player sustain, which was never casual friendly. Besides enforce the team to stack and melee on top of a boss was also considered elitism at that time and was heavily criticized among casual players.

Likewise many of us who's been playing thief in CM or Arah at the time are no stranger of being called by many names just for urging inexperienced casual players to stay inside their stealth zone.

I believe we pugged dungeons with different intensity.Apparently. For one, i wonder, were you trying to adapt to more casual strats, or trying to make casuals adapt to the more HC ones you personally were more used to? That alone makes a massive difference, seeing as the latter rarely works.Nearly all pug groups adapt casual strategies for success rates over theorized speed, but all require rules to be followed over party positioning, combat performance, coordination and/or skills of choice for mechanics. The same traits carried over to the majority of Wing 1-4 pug Raids today as their difficulty was so nerfed over patches and expansions that they are no longer an issue, it's really just the community based restraint and contribution requirement that the casuals were so against of.

[Fuchslein.8639]

Isn't it funny how on the first pages some have agreed how pointless this discussion is and then was carried whole 4 pages and probably would have gone even further had a mod would not have jumped in(finaly).

I personally think what has been said many times, Anet has a problem with things to continue. Anet is the person who constantly starts things, but never matures or finishes and then wonders that nothing really runs.The only thing that runs constantly is the LW and if that were so successful, wouldn't GW2 stand much better?And no, I'm not talking about GW2 dying. But the game could do a lot better if their production line didn't zig zag like crazy.

[Vilin.8056]

@Fuchslein.8639 said:Isn't it funny how on the first pages some have agreed how pointless this discussion is and then was carried whole 4 pages and probably would have gone even further had a mod would not have jumped in(finaly).

I personally think what has been said many times, Anet has a problem with things to continue. Anet is the person who constantly starts things, but never matures or finishes and then wonders that nothing really runs.The only thing that runs constantly is the LW and if that were so successful, wouldn't GW2 stand much better?And no, I'm not talking about GW2 dying. But the game could do a lot better if their production line didn't zig zag like crazy.Yes, but the game has become so dry out that this forum offer more gameplay than the game itself, even in these pointless debates...

[yukarishura.4790]

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Fuchslein.8639 said:Isn't it funny how on the first pages some have agreed how pointless this discussion is and then was carried whole 4 pages and probably would have gone even further had a mod would not have jumped in(finaly).

I personally think what has been said many times, Anet has a problem with things to continue.

Anet is the person who constantly starts things, but never matures or finishes and then wonders that nothing really runs.

The only thing that runs constantly is the LW and if that were so successful, wouldn't GW2 stand much better?And no, I'm not talking about GW2 dying. But the game could do a lot better if their production line didn't zig zag like crazy.Yes, but the game has become so dry out that this forum offer more gameplay than the game itself, even in these pointless debates...

this post was not meant as a debate, debating whether or not we should get raids is nonsense because the answer is obviously that we should, we should get all sorts of new content including raids, the point of the thread is to spark attention to let know anet that people are waiting for a raid forever and EoD is closing in, sadly the thread has been hijacked by nonsensical arguments and trolls who consider raids should not be developed anymore because bla bla bla reasons.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Raizel.1839 said:No thanks, raids in this game have failed, with only a litttle % of population playing them.

Better to include something more accessible in EoD.

people who claim raids have failed only play metas and auto attack, go to grind fests, and are having 0 motivation to engage with harder content, good to know who is ruining our chances of getting raids

The irony is so thick it touchable.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Vilin.8056" said:

Yes, practically all the dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah, and Twilight Assault, but that one came later) were easily doable in a casual group in under 2 hours.Then clearly either your group does not fully consist of casual players, or your experience with dungeons came much later when everything became much easier.I am speaking about the first year. Even before the dungeon rebalance that accompanied the "no ress if in combat" change (that one indeed made everything much easier, but it was still doable even before that).

CoE actually had only two problematic points (well, three - sometimes jumping lasers were a problem too :P). One was, obviously, Subject Alpha - unlike with most casual approaches, in this one you had to persuade other players to stack on top of him, or it could get nasty - and there was some Champion Abomination on one path that could pose a problem sometimes as well. Still, all those were manageable, so i'm not sure why you singled it out specifically - if i were to mention a most problematic dungeon with casual runners (outside of Arah), it would be CM, not CoE.The stack strategy require relatively high damage output to take out Project Alpha before its damage eventually overcome player sustain, which was never casual friendly.I kind of remember what builds the players i associated with then were running, and while some might have had a bit more damage than others, i would not count any as high damage ones. The average dps most probably was in the 4-6k range (although of course i had no dps meter then, and we didn't even think about dps values then). And since the dps of pugs i was also running dungeons with at that time didn't seem any higher, i have to assume they were running builds that were equally bad.Project Alpha fights in a casual group

were

about outsustaining it, with a lot of reviving downed players (

that's

why casual groups needed to stack, for fast ressing).

Besides enforce the team to stack and melee on top of a boss was also considered elitism at that time and was heavily criticized among casual players.It all depended on

how you asked for it

. If you were nice about it, and explained how it's going to help (and trying it did not turn out to make the fight harder, like trying to melee lupi with a group that couldn't reflect if their life depended on it, and couldn't dodge missile barrage in the face) it usually worked well. The main problem was usually with people that were already experienced (or at least thought they were) with said dungeon, and were unwilling to adapt to a completely different strat. With most of those being hardcores (or those that thought they were hardcores).

Likewise many of us who's been playing thief in CM or Arah at the time are no stranger of being called by many names just for urging inexperienced casual players to stay inside their stealth zone....thought so. You

were

trying to force HC strats on casuals.Hint: skipping trash mobs was the easier way to derail the whole dungeon, and trying it with casual players in group

did

often end with them leaving. And practically always made the run significantly longer, unless you were good enough to lowman it and carry those that were left behind.

Especially

in Arah.

I believe we pugged dungeons with different intensity.Apparently. For one, i wonder, were you trying to adapt to more casual strats, or trying to make casuals adapt to the more HC ones you personally were more used to? That alone makes a massive difference, seeing as the latter rarely works.Nearly all pug groups adapt casual strategies for success rates over theorized speed, but all require rules to be followed over party positioning, combat performance, coordination and/or skills of choice for mechanics. The same traits carried over to the majority of Wing 1-4 pug Raids today as their difficulty was so nerfed over patches and expansions that they are no longer an issue, it's really just the community based restraint and contribution requirement that the casuals were so against of.Well, now you know why you had so much different outcomes from casual groups than i did. You treated them differently.

Hint nr 2: there was a reason why i was specifically mentioning in every pug group i was after a casual, no skipping run - it was to avoid the very things that caused your "casual" runs to derail.

[MarkoGold.7126]

im saying this as someone who has all raid achievements and almost 1.7k li raids were a mistake, this game was always build for the casual players, trying to force casuals to care about raids combined with the toxicity of raids and no wonder why the game mode is dead.

[MarkoGold.7126]

also anet im not buying the new expansion if the chickens are a playable race.

[Cyninja.2954]

@MarkoGold.7126 said:im saying this as someone who has all raid achievements and almost 1.7k li raids were a mistake, this game was always build for the casual players, trying to force casuals to care about raids combined with the toxicity of raids and no wonder why the game mode is dead.

So, does my opinion as someone who has 3.7k LI bear more weight than your opinion?

No one here demands more casual players need to start raiding. Players who enjoy raids would like to see more content for them. That's all this thread is or was about.

If you did not enjoy your time in raids I'd question why you continued to raid beyond the initial 750 LI for the armors or give or take 900 LI for the armors and ring. Seems like an awful waste of time to spend on content one does not enjoy. Yet that is/was your choice to make.

@MarkoGold.7126 said:also anet im not buying the new expansion if the chickens are a playable race.

The decision to add a new race or not was made months ago, if not over a year. Even if the developers would value your input or preference, which I doubt they do, your statement here is of literally 0 impact.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vilin.8056" said:

Yes, practically all the dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah, and Twilight Assault, but that one came later) were easily doable in a casual group in under 2 hours.Then clearly either your group does not fully consist of casual players, or your experience with dungeons came much later when everything became much easier.I am speaking about the first year. Even before the dungeon rebalance that accompanied the "no ress if in combat" change (that one indeed made everything much easier, but it was still doable even before that).Given how easy you made it sounds like, I doubt these were first year experience.

CoE actually had only two problematic points (well, three - sometimes jumping lasers were a problem too :P). One was, obviously, Subject Alpha - unlike with most casual approaches, in this one you had to persuade other players to stack on top of him, or it could get nasty - and there was some Champion Abomination on one path that could pose a problem sometimes as well. Still, all those were manageable, so i'm not sure why you singled it out specifically - if i were to mention a most problematic dungeon with casual runners (outside of Arah), it would be CM, not CoE.The stack strategy require relatively high damage output to take out Project Alpha before its damage eventually overcome player sustain, which was never casual friendly.I kind of remember what builds the players i associated with then were running, and while some might have had a bit more damage than others, i would not count any as high damage ones. The average dps most probably was in the 4-6k range (although of course i had no dps meter then, and we didn't even think about dps values then). And since the dps of pugs i was also running dungeons with at that time didn't seem any higher, i have to assume they were running builds that were equally bad.Project Alpha fights in a casual group

were

about outsustaining it, with a lot of reviving downed players (

that's

why casual groups needed to stack, for fast ressing).6k without support roles and proper boons was considered good damage at the time consider the economy, potency of skill damage and average player skill is vastly different back then. Though I wonder how accurate is your speculation with your own party members at that stage.

Besides enforce the team to stack and melee on top of a boss was also considered elitism at that time and was heavily criticized among casual players.It all depended on

how you asked for it

. If you were nice about it, and explained how it's going to help (and trying it did not turn out to make the fight harder, like trying to melee lupi with a group that couldn't reflect if their life depended on it, and couldn't dodge missile barrage in the face) it usually worked well. The main problem was usually with people that were already experienced (or at least thought they were) with said dungeon, and were unwilling to adapt to a completely different strat. With most of those being hardcores (or those that thought they were hardcores).I'm not sure how frequent have you been with these contents at the time but you seem to have assume all casual players are as cooperative and would enjoy the experience of altering their ways onto something they dislike just because you asked nicely.It has nothing to do with attitude, we have also done countless run with guild mates in a casual guild and a friendly atmosphere. At the age when champ train was the majority of the income and ranged weapon was the king, feeling forced to stay in close proximity to a high damage boss is a frustration by itself and goes against their principle and freedom to do as they like.Secondly, as said previously, many of those who intentionally staying casuals simply don't have the patience and aren't joining a party to be "educated" by a stranger, despite how well your manners may be, listening the babbling of a stranger is just annoyance.I doubt you have been frequent with these kind communications in the past, neither was it a sustainable strategy when doing over 5 paths a day.

Likewise many of us who's been playing thief in CM or Arah at the time are no stranger of being called by many names just for urging inexperienced casual players to stay inside their stealth zone....thought so. You

were

trying to force HC strats on casuals.Hint: skipping trash mobs was the easier way to derail the whole dungeon, and trying it with casual players in group

did

often end with them leaving. And practically always made the run significantly longer, unless you were good enough to lowman it and carry those that were left behind.

Especially

in Arah.Hint: Outside of AC, all pug parties wipes when dealing more than 2 elites at a time unless they can be completely rendered harmless by means of projectile block.

Hint nr 2: there was a reason why i was specifically mentioning in every pug group i was after a casual, no skipping run - it was to avoid the very things that caused your "casual" runs to derail.

Unless your boasting, then your casual dungeon party must be super powerful that they can survive and clear out those swarm of mobs in CM or Arah with no elite specs and nerfed skill sets, yet still clear all paths in under 2 hours with pugs, or you have some godly player skill that I am not in possession of before the first expansion.

I believe we pugged dungeons with different intensity.Apparently. For one, i wonder, were you trying to adapt to more casual strats, or trying to make casuals adapt to the more HC ones you personally were more used to? That alone makes a massive difference, seeing as the latter rarely works.Nearly all pug groups adapt casual strategies for success rates over theorized speed, but all require rules to be followed over party positioning, combat performance, coordination and/or skills of choice for mechanics. The same traits carried over to the majority of Wing 1-4 pug Raids today as their difficulty was so nerfed over patches and expansions that they are no longer an issue, it's really just the community based restraint and contribution requirement that the casuals were so against of.Well, now you know why you had so much different outcomes from casual groups than i did. You treated them differently.Like you were accusing me of? There's a difference between staying head on trying to understand where the problem consists between different sides of people, and those who simply staying in comfort zone blaming either sides of the community.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Vilin.8056" said:Given how easy you made it sounds like, I doubt these were first year experience.It is your right to doubt. This does not change my experiences, and the time they happened, though.

6k without support roles and proper boons was considered good damage at the time consider the economy, potency of skill damage and average player skill is vastly different back then. Though I wonder how accurate is your speculation with your own party members at that stage.If anything, i'm probably heavily overestimating the dps. The builds i remember people using were truly bad. At least as dps go anyway.

Secondly, as said previously, many of those who intentionally staying casuals simply don't have the patience and aren't joining a party to be "educated" by a stranger, despite how well your manners may be, listening the babbling of a stranger is just annoyance.Oh, but you see, that's the point - i wasn't trying to "educate" anyone. Casuals i usually met in pugs then didn't react all too well to anyone trying to "educate" them. That however didn't mean they were incapable of listening.Like i said, a difference in approach.

I doubt you have been frequent with these kind communications in the past, neither was it a sustainable strategy when doing over 5 paths a day.Well, i told you i was doing dungeons casually. Obviously i wasn't doing 5 runs a day. I didn't have 5+ hours for that. If that's what you were doing however, i do understand (again), why you had problems with casuals. You were in a hurry.

Hint: Outside of AC, all pug parties wipes when dealing more than 2 elites at a time unless they can be completely rendered harmless by means of projectile block.In Arah, sure - that's why i specifically excluded that one dungeon. Trash clearing here took a lot of time because the trash was more dense than in other places, and there was a ton of it around.

Hint nr 2: there was a reason why i was specifically mentioning in every pug group i was after a casual, no skipping run - it was to avoid the very things that caused your "casual" runs to derail.

Unless your boasting, then your casual dungeon party must be super powerful that they can survive and clear out those swarm of mobs in CM or Arah with no elite specs and nerfed skill sets, yet still clear all paths in under 2 hours with pugs, or you have some godly player skill that I am not in possession of before the first expansion.I did mention that i specifically excluded Arah from those times, and that CM was the one dungeon from all of the rest that caused the most problems usually, didn't i?

Well, now you know why you had so much different outcomes from casual groups than i did. You treated them differently.Like you were accusing me of? There's a difference between staying head on trying to understand where the problem consists between different sides of people, and those who simply staying in comfort zone blaming either sides of the community.Yes. There is.

[radda.8920]

I don't understand all the criticisms on this subjectraids and fractals are the best thing that happened to gw2 by far

Finally, a content that allows you to think, adapt your build, really play WITH your team by coordinating, improve your reflexes ... the rest of the game boils down to hitting your head on the keyboard while drinking a coffee, raids and fractals gave the game a real breath of fresh air

The only reason for their failure is that they arrived much too late, they should have been launched in the first 2 years to consolidate a large number of HM players.

By only throwing open content (spam 1 mode) for years, the majority of hm players fled and did not return for the raids. this is what explains this failure.

I still hope to see urgoz and kanaxai raid version again in EoD .For me if there is no pve HM content with real difficulty on this expansion, it will be a major failure.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"MarkoGold.7126" said:im saying this as someone who has all raid achievements and almost 1.7k li raids were a mistake, this game was always build for the casual players, trying to force casuals to care about raids combined with the toxicity of raids and no wonder why the game mode is dead.

Why was it made for casuals when it has one of the most hardcore build systems which doesnt even try to hold your hand? The combat is also way faster than wow and ff."Play how you want" didnt mean "dont have to read tooltips".The raids are not hard. But expecting to have 6 matching runes, stats and sigils is just too much for the majority of the playerbase since most of them dont even know what their skills or traits do.The difficulty is also not even what stops players getting into raids. Its the socializing aspect a lot of players dont like. I would like new Raids but they are not a must have. Group content is needed though. Fractals and raids kinda became guild missions for me at this point. Its the only pve content where guilds matter.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Nephalem.8921 said:Why was it made for casuals when it has one of the most hardcore build systems which doesnt even try to hold your hand?That system was a heritage of GW1. Where it worked due to existence of heroes.

Seriously, it's clear that, when they devised the system, devs did not predict the consequences its introduction would bring for balancing the game. In fact, it is now a core issue behind many of the problems we're talking about in this and other similar threads. With a much simpler system, that would not offer players so many bad choices, and would not create such massive gaps between the bad and good ones, Raids would have been a far better idea, and probably would have fared better.

The combat is also way faster than wow and ff.Yes, that is also a problem. It slides way too much towards arcade games at times (and the target group for MMORPGs and arcade games is not really all that similar).

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:Why was it made for casuals when it has one of the most hardcore build systems which doesnt even try to hold your hand?That system was a heritage of GW1. Where it worked due to existence of heroes.

Seriously, it's clear that, when they devised the system, devs did not predict the consequences its introduction would bring for balancing the game. In fact, it is now a core issue behind many of the problems we're talking about in this and other similar threads. With a much simpler system, that would not offer players so many bad choices, and would not create such massive gaps between the bad and good ones, Raids would have been a far better idea, and probably would have fared better.

Maybe, but this would mean that in all cases of possible adjustments:

• during vanilla when traits were reworked the first time
• during the rework of the stats and itemization
• during vanilla when traits were reworked a second time in preparation of HoT and in fact the entire trait system was redone
• with the introduction of HoT and the change to certain boons, introduction of new boons, new mechanics and system update (gliding and retroactive addition of gliding to vanilla)
• with the introduction of again new mechanics with PoF

The developers never saw the necessity to rework the system. Thus the claim this is due to heritage of GW1 seems a bit far fetched. The combat system in this game has less in common with GW1 than with other action MMORPGs. The developers have had ample opportunity to adjust this games combat system, if they so desired.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:The combat is also way faster than wow and ff.Yes, that is also a problem. It slides way too much towards arcade games at times (and the target group for MMORPGs and arcade games is not really all that similar).

Which give this game a continued Unique Selling Proposition. Why should this not be utilized? If this games combat was a lot more similar to WoW or FF, it could very well go the way of the Dodo, or SWToR or similar copy cats.

[Vilin.8056]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vilin.8056" said:Secondly, as said previously, many of those who intentionally staying casuals simply don't have the patience and aren't joining a party to be "educated" by a stranger, despite how well your manners may be, listening the babbling of a stranger is just annoyance.Oh, but you see, that's the point -

i wasn't trying to "educate" anyone

. Casuals i usually met in pugs then didn't react all too well to anyone trying to "educate" them. That however didn't mean they were incapable of listening.Like i said, a difference in approach.Ok, "make them listen" then, I do not see what's the point differentiate the same act with different terms. For those who's out there to receive your "explanation" it makes no difference.I doubt you have been frequent with these kind communications in the past, neither was it a sustainable strategy when doing over 5 paths a day.Well, i told you i was doing dungeons casually. Obviously i

wasn't

doing 5 runs a day. I didn't have 5+ hours for that. If that's what you were doing however, i do understand (again), why you had problems with casuals. You were in a hurry.Well, you also said you only need 2 hours to clear all paths of one dungeon, that makes 5 paths well under 4 hours didn't it?It's all clear then, you don't frequent these contents enough to see the varieties of casuals players in it, and to judges a whole community based on a experience of a few tries.Hint: Outside of AC, all pug parties wipes when dealing more than 2 elites at a time unless they can be completely rendered harmless by means of projectile block.In Arah, sure - that's why i specifically excluded that one dungeon. Trash clearing here took a lot of time because the trash was more dense than in other places, and there was a

ton

of it around.You forgot to mention the underground opening area of CM where you get to disturb a hornet's nest of bandits?Again, you said clearing full paths in 2 hours in all dungeons except Arah.

Hint nr 2: there was a reason why i was specifically mentioning in every pug group i was after a casual, no skipping run - it was to avoid the very things that caused your "casual" runs to derail.Unless your boasting, then your casual dungeon party must be super powerful that they can survive and clear out those swarm of mobs in CM or Arah with no elite specs and nerfed skill sets, yet still clear all paths in under 2 hours with pugs, or you have some godly player skill that I am not in possession of before the first expansion.I did mention that i specifically excluded Arah from those times, and that CM was the one dungeon from all of the rest that caused the most problems usually, didn't i?Sure let's spent several hours on in one path of Arah or CM and call it a casual experience.Here's your problem, you expect all casual players willing to spent countless time and effort and repetitive wipings to brute force each area, when most casuals don't have either and only expect for a relatively relaxed run.Same principle still applies, most casuals don't stay in the group over two wipes, neither over 1 hours on one path of dungeon, your experience apparently apply to a few selective tries.Well, now you know why you had so much different outcomes from casual groups than i did. You treated them differently.Like you were accusing me of? There's a difference between staying head on trying to understand where the problem consists between different sides of people, and those who simply staying in comfort zone blaming either sides of the community.Yes. There is.Agreed.

[Linken.6345]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Vilin.8056 said:Doable maybe if you are willing to spend the extra hour(s) on the configuration you claimed, but unlikely maintainable if you claim to clear all paths in most dungeons in under 2 hours. Unless I'm extremely unlucky or some players in your pugs were the minmaxer pulling the heavy lifting, especially in CoE.Given that casual players in pugs usually leave party after 2 wipes, it's uncommon that they would stick to the end to reach a successful outcome.It's all about how you treat other players. Casual players generally were

not

the ones to leave quickly after a wipe - it was the speedrunners/HC players that did so. If casuals did leave that fast, it generally means someone was slinging some snide comments at them.Yes, practically all the dungeon paths (with the notable exception of Arah, and Twilight Assault, but that one came later) were easily doable in a casual group in under 2 hours.CoE actually had only two problematic points (well, three - sometimes jumping lasers were a problem too :P). One was, obviously, Subject Alpha - unlike with most casual approaches, in this one you had to persuade other players to stack on top of him, or it could get nasty - and there was some Champion Abomination on one path that could pose a problem sometimes as well. Still, all those were manageable, so i'm not sure why you singled it out specifically - if i were to mention a most problematic dungeon with casual runners (outside of Arah), it would be CM, not CoE.

I believe we pugged dungeons with different intensity.Apparently. For one, i wonder, were you trying to adapt to more casual strats, or trying to make casuals adapt to the more HC ones you personally were more used to? That alone makes a massive difference, seeing as the latter rarely works.

You are saying you did 17 dungeon paths under 2 hours with casual pugs?That would be an average 7.05 min each path given 2 hours total.Ascalonian Catacombs 3 pathsCaudecus's Manor 3 pathsTwilight Arbor 2 pathsSorrow's Embrace 3 pathsCitadel of Flame 3 pathsHonor of the Waves 3 paths

I call bullshit on that claim.

Might have been possible with speed runners yes.

EditOh it was 1 dungeon so 2-3 paths well thats slow as a sloth :astonished:

[Astralporing.1957]

@Vilin.8056 said:Well, you also said you only need 2 hours to clear all paths of one dungeon, that makes 5 paths well under 4 hours didn't it?Err, no. We were talking about individual paths. Casuals didn't generally go for all 3-path clears of dungeons then. Although, as i said before, it was more up to an hour , not 2 hours (again, with the exception of Arah. Arah with casuals did take at least an hour even with the fastest path)

Sure let's spent several hours on in one path of Arah or CM and call it a casual experience.Here's your problem, you expect all casual players willing to spent countless time and effort and repetitive wipings to brute force each area, when most casuals don't have either and only expect for a relatively relaxed run.Same principle still applies, most casuals don't stay in the group over two wipes, neither over 1 hours on one path of dungeon, your experience apparently apply to a few selective tries.I don't expect anything. I was relating my actual past experiences. And, according to those, casuals were far more willing to spend a lot of time to have a pleasant (pleasand in this case means not rushed by someone that was in a hurry, or thought the run was talking 2 minutes too long) laid back dungeon run that you gave them credit for. The impatience was mostly the domain of would-be speedrunners.

And no, i wasn't talking about just a few runs. I was farming the achievements and armor sets then, and after i got those, i was running dungeons because i liked it. Which means i did a lot of runs.

But, as i said before, you can disbelieve all you want. It still doesn't change a thing. Even if it doesn't fit your worldview.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Maybe, but this would mean that in all cases of possible adjustments:

• during vanilla when traits were reworked the first time
• during the rework of the stats and itemization
• during vanilla when traits were reworked a second time in preparation of HoT and in fact the entire trait system was redone
• with the introduction of HoT and the change to certain boons, introduction of new boons, new mechanics and system update (gliding and retroactive addition of gliding to vanilla)
• with the introduction of again new mechanics with PoF

The developers never saw the necessity to rework the system.No, all those changes you speak of were mostly superficial. In order to remove the core issues they'd have to redo the whole system from ground up.

Neither the changes to the trait system, nor the ones made to stats changed anything deeper about it. Most of the changes to trait systems were about UI (or stuff like obtaining/unlocking traits - so, again, UI), without changing the underlying system. Same with changes to stats - these were some tweaks and adjustments, but the overall stat/gear system remained completely unchanged.

Notice, btw, that the changes to the trait system, while mostly done to the ui and the way traits are selectable, all ended up with making the system simpler and the amount of choices/combinations smaller. It's just, as i said, they were mostly superficial, so couldn't have too big of an impact.

Basically, the only time they did something a bit bigger was the condition damage rework. And even that was still something that was simply changing the way condition damage was using the underlying system, without changing anything about the core system itself.

Thus the claim this is due to heritage of GW1 seems a bit far fetched. The combat system in this game has less in common with GW1 than with other action MMORPGs. The developers have had ample opportunity to adjust this games combat system, if they so desired.I'm speaking about the general idea of a freeform system with a ton of options that offers practically a separate minigame to all the people that like to look for their own combinations in hope of finding some that will be overpowered compared to the rest due to their incredible synergy. And one where most available combinations are just plain bad.

Which give this game a continued Unique Selling Proposition. Why should this not be utilized? If this games combat was a lot more similar to WoW or FF, it could very well go the way of the Dodo, or SWToR or similar copy cats.Problem is, the combination of build/gear system and the action combat is aimed mainly at a very small, hardcore crowd - but the rest of the game clearly points to the devs intending for the target group for this game to be way, way bigger than that. It's a severe inconsistency in the design.

They should have either done a game with a much simpler system, with much smaller discrepancies between skill levels, or they should have left the system as it is, but made a game that would be completely made around HC content, and practically ignored casuals. In the end, they ended up with the game filled mostly with casuals, with content mostly for casuals, but the core build/combat system not made with casuals in mind. This system is simply not designed for a game that tries to succesfully cater to groups of players with multiple wildly different gameplay styles.