This is jackhammering, not balancing

[witcher.3197]

Remember Smiter's Boon in GW1? It became a meme after Anet changed the skill from 5 energy/30s duration/10s CD to 25 energy/5s duration/90s CD. This was a bandaid fix made to remove the skills from the meta and was never meant to last. It's an isolated case in the game that was never revisited because Anet abandoned GW1.

In GW2, Smiter's Booning and worse has become the standard last year:

• 2-3 second procs with 5 minute CDs
• Skills going from dealing 8k damage to 8
• Condition durations going from 6 seconds to 1
• An amulet that was garbage for 5 years (cele) finds play in 1 build because it has broken Might stacking and immediately gets removed before the class even gets nerfed. And then the Might duration goes to 1 second too, hoping this would remove it from play but it didn't so now Anet is out of ideas I guess.
• Meta is too tanky? Just remove more amulets I guess. We've lost so many amulets lately there isn't even a scroll wheel anymore at the selection panel, and I bet it'll only keep shrinking.

And the list goes on and on. Anet isn't fixing the problem or balancing the game, they are either nerfing things so hard they might as well just remove them, or they outright remove them.

Anet is busy with EoD, I get that. But at this rate, not doing anything is better than this "balancing". Anet was supposed to follow up on the 2020 February patch but that didn't happen. Who's to say it ever will? They were supposed to follow up on Smiter's Boon too and here we are 14 years later..

Not sure what I want with this post, just figured I'd write it out.

[mistsim.2748]

Removing overtuned things exposes other overtuned things. Mender was removed but now we have Demolisher, which is really strong for side noding on some specs.

I don't know why others can't see this but it's actually the game mode, Conquest. It needs to be ditched. I've had enough of it after 8.5 years, how about you?

You're always gonna have some kind of quasi bunker, some kind of bursty roamer, a side noder, and 1-2 things in between.

Last year I left because I got tired of fighting against Revs in high ELO. Pretty much Mallyx and Shiro pooping on people. Holos were also overtuned but more manageable.

Came back a month ago, and I like it better. A bit necro heavy but this will improve as we start to see more Spellbreakers.

I think CMCs changes have all been on point, if not too slow at times. But I really think the game is trapped by the bad game mode. Any kind of king of the hill will lead to the same kind of roles, same kind of memes and boring metas.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I really really just want a 1v1 mini season.

Swap builds in between rounds but not characters.

I think it would work out better and be a lot more fun than people seem to believe.

[otto.5684]

It is very clear the Anet has been have competence and management issues, since the 2019 mass staff terminations. At the time Anet said this should not impact the game, but it did, in all its aspects. Spvp is now at the worst it ever been. The changes made might have good ideas, but clearly were not well thought out, and made by people who did not understand the game enough. And since all they did is just nerf or remove stuff. This is not balancing. You cannot balance a game by just pressing the delete button every time you are facing an issue.

[mistsim.2748]

@otto.5684 said:It is very clear the Anet has been have competence and management issues, since the 2019 mass staff terminations. At the time Anet said this should not impact the game, but it did, in all its aspects. Spvp is now at the worst it ever been. The changes made might have good ideas, but clearly were not well thought out, and made by people who did not understand the game enough. And since all they did is just nerf or remove stuff. This is not balancing. You cannot balance a game by just pressing the delete button every time you are facing an issue.

Don't think so. They had to shut down other projects and those individual got fired. Then, they pulled people from GW2 maintenance to crank out EoD as quickly as possible, likely from NCSoft's pressure. Pretty sure most devs are still around but they're frantically working under a crunch to get EoD out. Given the silence they're likely not on target for a timely release.

They threw us a bone by hiring CMC for spvp, but it's just one dude.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I really really just want a 1v1 mini season.

Swap builds in between rounds but not characters.

I think it would work out better and be a lot more fun than people seem to believe.

The problem is balance. How do you make attrition-style bunkers not dominate? How do you make Thief and Mesmer playable?

[Virdo.1540]

The way of balancing is a deadly road. Atm they are trying to remove "meta" ,which cant be done. Classes will always be better than others.

So they will nerf more and more until every class is like a Super Adventure Stick-Fighter. (it almost came that far)

They need to start buffing again. Instead of weakening the "good" classes, Improve the garbage. Every class becoming "Meta" is achievable compared to "removing meta"

[mistsim.2748]

So the meta a year ago when I left was actually pretty good. Shiro, Holo, and Mallyx were quite disgustingly overtuned, but there was some decent diversity. With these shaved and Mender's gone, I feel it's just necros left but they only need a slight shave at most. I honestly feel the current meta will be fairly diverse. It's looking that way.

[ellesee.8297]

Jackhammer bunker builds please. Jackhammer any AI builds as well.

[lovemghool.7613]

oh balancing? it goes something like this: if it is meta then dismember it. repeat.

well I'm pretty sure when the whole balance department is 2 people plus one newly hired PLAYER taking their whole direction from select top players the results are not going to be satisfactory nor timely. If this does not scream in competence, short sighted/no vision and under-staffed (hello 2019 mass layoffs) then I do not know what does.

The department, nay the studio need to get their act together. Do not fool yourselves no matter where you stand on the matter; a half baked cake is not going on anyone's tray and an under staffed facility isn't operating in a healthy capacity either.

Your only hope is if somehow EoD magically turns out to be a golden egg.

[kiri.1467]

@witcher.3197 said:Remember Smiter's Boon in GW1? It became a meme after Anet changed the skill from 5 energy/30s duration/10s CD to 25 energy/5s duration/90s CD. This was a bandaid fix made to remove the skills from the meta and was never meant to last. It's an isolated case in the game that was never revisited because Anet abandoned GW1.

I always thought it was hilarious that the person who used to post balance updates for PvP had Smiter's Boon as their profile pic. Like, really?

[Shao.7236]

Being upset about stuff that doesn't fit won't make it work any better, that's also not acknowledging how limited and little the changes can be outside number crunching. If they could, they would have done it already.

Also you may complain about amulets being removed but in the end it's not like the builds have changed in the slightest, so pointless complains. By complaining about the removal of certain amulets, you're also accepting the fact that it's okay to have underused one's that can fit the role just as well without having results blown out of proportions that breaks current on going adjustments because you know, that's what they are doing, balancing.

Have to toss this fact in over and over seemingly because nerfing skills to oblivion for one amulet sounds better to most instead of getting rid of it, the purpose of it being exactly the same as the lesser options while not making those overpowered stats mandatory to the new numbers. We're not bound to make progress if removing essentially what is fluff and illusion of choice to make people quit. The risks of having to deal with the eternal unhappy player base among many others.

Seeing all these posts is like agreeing that Ranger should have had all of it's traits nerfed because under Knight and Cavalier it was essentially overpowered, begone with Ranger having any reliable options because of this amulet so everyone else can keep using it. (As if ANYONE was using Knight or Cavalier outside niche uses that weren't as popular anyway, we'd rather kill an entire profession instead of BALANCING.)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I really really just want a 1v1 mini season.

Swap builds in between rounds but not characters.

I think it would work out better and be a lot more fun than people seem to believe.

The problem is balance. How do you make attrition-style bunkers not dominate? How do you make Thief and Mesmer playable?

Well for one thing they just removed mender/marshal.

Aside from that, the whole purpose of 1v1 would be build template swapping really. Every class can counter any class/build by configuring for it, just need to know the game and be able to anticipate what your opponent is using for a given round. It truly would be a test of who knows the deep things about their class & the current meta, rather than just knowing how to run a singular build structure.

I've actually helped run and even stream some beta forms of a ruleset like this. It works and it's a lot of fun. When it comes to 1v1 like this, there is a much much larger viability in build structures that actually work as compared to the narrowness of what we have to run in conquest.

And believe it or not, 1v1 is easier to watch in stream. People who don't play the game have a hard time following conquest, but they understand 1v1.

[mixxed.5862]

This forum is such an abomination. Nothing but narrow-mindedness and silly complaints.

The last patch was a big step forwards. Team fights and duels finally tend to end in kills. We'll just have to wait and see what the meta settles on. But for now it looks hell of a lot more fun and diverse than before.My only worry is that some people will run double support to keep the bunker meta going.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@mixxed.5862 said:This forum is such an abomination. Nothing but narrow-mindedness and silly complaints.

The last patch was a big step forwards. Team fights and duels finally tend to end in kills.

I havn't played the game since the patch, but obviously fights would end in kills because you removed all other amulets except for berserkers and berserkers with toughness amulets.

Also playing my Healing Ele felt pretty crappy post patch so I logged and haven't returned since.

This is what you wanted...stick wars 2 and you're getting it. You wait until the next meta settles, which will be some other amulet and some other configuration of build and you'll nerf that out of existence too until there is nothing left but sticks and bricks to throw at each other.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"mistsim.2748" said:Removing overtuned things exposes other overtuned things. Mender was removed but now we have Demolisher, which is really strong for side noding on some specs.

I don't know why others can't see this but it's actually the game mode, Conquest. It needs to be ditched. I've had enough of it after 8.5 years, how about you?

Oh ya listen to this guy who repeatedly said removing amulets is healthy way to balance the game...now you want to remove the game mode and kill pvp entirely?

I think CMCs changes have all been on point, if not too slow at times. But I really think the game is trapped by the bad game mode. Any kind of king of the hill will lead to the same kind of roles, same kind of memes and boring metas.

The game mode matters about what will be meta there, but it doesn't matter what environment you have. All of them will have a convergence to a single meta. Whether its 1v1 3,v3 KOTH, Capture the Flag...there is always going to be a build in that environment that flourishes...some builds transcend this environment and flourish in all parts of the game. This is just the way of how evolution selects builds that are the best suited to survive and continue further.

The solution is not to remove environments ..that doesn't work either. Every bad suggestion you've thrown around and we suffer through them because THIS line of thinking...removing amulets, removing game-modes is what CMC is listening to and actually doing is slowly but surely tearing apart his own game because people don't bother to do just a little bit of thinking on the subject and instead just throw around bias, subjective answers... like "oh i think its more diverse because i play ranger now" is a subjective and bias view point.

[mistsim.2748]

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

The solution is not to remove environments ..that doesn't work either. Every bad suggestion you've thrown around and we suffer through them because THIS line of thinking...removing amulets, removing game-modes is what CMC is listening to and actually doing is slowly but surely tearing apart his own game because people don't bother to do just a little bit of thinking on the subject and instead just throw around bias, subjective answers... like "oh i think its more diverse because i play ranger now" is a subjective and bias view point.

Ok big man, sounds like you know exactly how to fix this game. When's your first day on the job?

[ellesee.8297]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"mixxed.5862" said:This forum is such an abomination. Nothing but narrow-mindedness and silly complaints.

The last patch was a big step forwards. Team fights and duels finally tend to end in kills.

I havn't played the game since the patch, but obviously fights would end in kills because you removed all other amulets except for berserkers and berserkers with toughness amulets.

Also playing my Healing Ele felt pretty crappy post patch so I logged and haven't returned since.

"All amulets removed except zerker and zerker with toughness"

Support builds still exist. Condi builds exist. What are you on about?

"I havent played the patch."

Next paragraph

"Playing my ele didnt feel good without an amulet with massive defensive and offensive stats"

These forums give me a headache. My own thread was ruined by these kinds of people.

Make condi engi great again.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I really really just want a 1v1 mini season.

Swap builds in between rounds but not characters.

I think it would work out better and be a lot more fun than people seem to believe.

The problem is balance. How do you make attrition-style bunkers not dominate? How do you make Thief and Mesmer playable?

Well for one thing they just removed mender/marshal.

Amulets arent the only reaso nthose would dominate.

Aside from that, the whole purpose of 1v1 would be build template swapping really. Every class can counter any class/build by configuring for it, just need to know the game and be able to anticipate what your opponent is using for a given round. It truly would be a test of who knows the deep things about their class & the current meta, rather than just knowing how to run a singular build structure.

Not really? There are classes and builds (a lot of them in fact), that Mesmer and Thief just autolose in a 1v1 against.

I've actually helped run and even stream some beta forms of a ruleset like this. It works and it's a lot of fun. When it comes to 1v1 like this, there is a much much larger viability in build structures that actually work as compared to the narrowness of what we have to run in conquest.

I imagine you didnt get any of the kind of people that go through and do all the math. Though from what I saw the last time we had a 1v1 tournament, it was mostly just 3 classes, thieves and mesmers were rarely picked and lost whenever they were picked, and it was kind of a mess.

And believe it or not, 1v1 is easier to watch in stream. People who don't play the game have a hard time following conquest, but they understand 1v1.

Sure, its also just arguably less interesting. You already have WvW for that.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@mistsim.2748 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

The solution is not to remove environments ..that doesn't work either. Every bad suggestion you've thrown around and we suffer through them because THIS line of thinking...removing amulets, removing game-modes is what CMC is listening to and actually doing is slowly but surely tearing apart his own game because people don't bother to do just a little bit of thinking on the subject and instead just throw around bias, subjective answers... like "oh i think its more diverse because i play ranger now" is a subjective and bias view point.

Ok big man, sounds like you know exactly how to fix this game. When's your first day on the job?

Your solution is to remove PVP from PVP. Are you so oblivious to the fact that you would see the same meta behavior taking place in 2v2/3v3 game modes in off season? The same kind of convergence to a meta build still appears, and the only reason people don't complain about it is because the season lasts for 2 weeks...not enough time for people to go through all the possibilities to converge.

Basic logical deduction is that the environment has an effect on what KIND of builds are meta...much like how PVE has a set of different builds that define it as being meta...but that NO MATTER what the environment there will ALWAYS be a meta. Removing Conquest will do NOTHING of impact, and replacing it with any game mode will do NOTHING of impact.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"ellesee.8297" said:These forums give me a headache. My own thread was ruined by these kinds of people.

What thread would that be. Cause surely if you are talking about "Make Condi Engi Great Again" Then you've got it all backward. You're stance in that thread, from a quick glance, is that you don't want your build to be useless right. Hello? My Heal Ele build is just as useless now as your condi engi. So what exactly is your stance? You want your condi engi to be useful and mine to suck?

My stance from the past 3 years on this forum is one of build diversity always, and the removal of a bad balance philosophy : That Nerfs and Buffs do nothing but kill diversity. I have logical deductions, mathematical proofs that this is the case.. I've had conversations time and time again with people that do not understand the implications of using balance and diversity when used in a sentence...that these are actual subjects in a scientific field that you can study. Here's a hint 99.99% of people on this forum do not even know where the term "diversity" or "balance" even comes from...they don't know what the definition of these words are and you think they actually know what they are talking about when they talk about "balancing" a class or that there is "more" diversity now by removing options? lol please.

[ellesee.8297]

1. Ele support still exists, and it's fine.
2. I dont have a condi engi build because condi engi doesnt exist and it has nothing to do with amulets.
3. Save your "logical deductions and mathematical proofs" for someone who gives a shit. The fact of the matter is an amulet that gives high offensive and defensive stats is bad for the game because it creates hyper tanky builds that can output decent damage. When this happens, it actually kills build diversity. How many mender scourges would you see per team when queuing? Like 2 per team per game, every other game. Where is the diversity? It also made the game slow, so slow. Trying to cap the bell or tranq when scourges are duking it out, nah. Good riddance.

Let the AI build nerfs come next.

[Shao.7236]

@"ellesee.8297" said:

1. Ele support still exists, and it's fine.
2. I dont have a condi engi build because condi engi doesnt exist and it has nothing to do with amulets.
3. Save your "logical deductions and mathematical proofs" for someone who gives a kitten. The fact of the matter is an amulet that gives high offensive and defensive stats is bad for the game because it creates hyper tanky builds that can output decent damage. When this happens, it actually kills build diversity. How many mender scourges would you see per team when queuing? Like 2 per team per game, every other game. Where is the diversity? It also made the game slow, so slow. Trying to cap the bell or tranq when scourges are duking it out, nah. Good riddance.

Let the AI build nerfs come next.

Condi PP exists and is doing fine, if you want to apply 15 stacks of burn. Play Guard, Engi has more depth than it to be effective and may probably be why you can't get anything to work, since I've seen you try and you're really going for just one condition (burn) rather than exploiting the entire availability of options to yourself.

Quit having the same expectations in between professions and maybe just perhaps you'll figure out how to make the gears spin.

[Bazsi.2734]

@mistsim.2748 said:Removing overtuned things exposes other overtuned things. Mender was removed but now we have Demolisher, which is really strong for side noding on some specs.

Thats it, remove Demo amulet next! Hope we can get all amulets with power, precision, thoughness, vitality, healing power and ferocity out of the meta by the end of the year.

[ellesee.8297]

Condi engi doesnt exist in the meta. If you dont want to take my word for it, ask any good player. It's a meme.