I love how scourge is even more oppressive after the supposed nerfs

[Ovark.2514]

How about we require condi builds to take the same amount of stats to be viable as power builds?

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

While I support the notion of making condi builds less spammy, scourge is certainly not "even more oppressive" than it was before. It is far easier to kill now with the smaller barriers.

[Kuma.1503]

Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.

And that's bad becausee??? You know that, just because you have 5781395719853 possibilities to pick from, it doesn't mean you'll use all of them, right? It was the same in HoT, when you had "freedom of choice", yet meta was strict af and there was no real room for other build combinations in long run.A-net has created so many problems years ago, that removing Mender(which was added in 2016) won't fix everything, but will show how certain things are still broken even after it's removal, so it's a good thing to do. Imagine if we still had Cleric Amulet in the game...I think that at some point A-net should just let players play without using any kind of amulets, runes and sigils and see how the balance truly looks like and observe how classes behave on their own with only weapons, traits and skills, After that they should just add "1-stat" amulets that would boost either Power, Precision, Vitality, etc.

[Shao.7236]

@Kuma.1503 said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

[Mythras.2091]

@"Hogwarts Zebra.8597" said:While I support the notion of making condi builds less spammy, scourge is certainly not "even more oppressive" than it was before. It is far easier to kill now with the smaller barriers.

I completly agree with you: scg falls faster, even zoo carapace can be killed with careful play, though they have better dmg now. I think condi dmg needs a slower ramp up (im no pro, so dont flame), less stacks more duration or sth. Condi burst from eles, mes and tif can feel hard if they got you in bad times, especially if they are stacked with covering condis and you cant cleanse the dmging condis because of that.

[Shao.7236]

@Mythras.2091 said:

@"Hogwarts Zebra.8597" said:While I support the notion of making condi builds less spammy, scourge is certainly not "even more oppressive" than it was before. It is far easier to kill now with the smaller barriers.

I completly agree with you: scg falls faster, even zoo carapace can be killed with careful play, though they have better dmg now. I think condi dmg needs a slower ramp up (im no pro, so dont flame), less stacks more duration or sth. Condi burst from eles, mes and tif can feel hard if they got you in bad times, especially if they are stacked with covering condis and you cant cleanse the dmging condis because of that.

Core Engineer is akind to that, you have a long lasting condition (Burn) that you have to cover with a large set of options and make count for general damage while you have a burst condition (Confusion) that is good to apply under pressure so you punish opponent for thinking they can freely go all aggressive on you.

Revenant also shares that aspect except the cover is supposed to be from transfers/diabolic inferno as players retaliate with Resistance which makes it possible. Unfortunately they've nerfed all Resistance traits rather than fixing the one that was a real problem. (Fiendish Tenacity.) Making the ability to be self sufficient at carrying conditions on self at a level that's considered bursty almost impossible, damage is extremely dependent on what you face and if you want reliable Resistance it'll have to be in a teamfight. Torment is like a lesser burn if people stand still too so their fights is often trivial and standing still to cleanse the big stuff is the better solution rather than trying to kite.

I haven't played much other condition builds but I know for a fact stuff like overall Guardian, Berserker, Ranger are more spammy with the same condition that they can improve on damage as well. (Revenant can also but at the cost of losing making Empowering Misery extremely hard to effectively use due to Spirit Boon nerf.) So unlike the latter, they can repeat their offense often or patiently stick to waste their opponent CD because no matter what's being done, the damage mostly come from 1 condition and there's no reason to blow it all at once if you can bait cleanses and re-apply.

This just highlights how powerful burn is compared everything else but I'd still stand by the fact that short (2 seconds or so) applications of burns in multiple successions is much more balanced than just tons of long burns that we had like the old SoJ. Flaming Flurry / Pyro Vortex are examples of balanced burn application I'd say, Primordial Stance could honestly have it's burn shaved down to 1 second as when double attuned that stuff does hurt badly even if half a second doesn't seem to mean much.

[Kuma.1503]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

I'd believe this if the weaker builds that would emerge didn't keep getting slapped by nerfs that were supposed to target the overperforming builds (Core Nades for example).

Idk, the meta seems more stale than ever. Seems like every patch it's 1 or 2 proffesions who fight as gods among men with every other profession struggling to compete. Whether it's Nade Holo, Renegade, Burn DH, or, currently, Scourge.

I've said before that I'm 100% okay with nerfs to overperformers, but it's been done so carelessly, and in cases like this, the nerfs occasionally make situations worse. Heal Scrap got gutted due to a nerf that was supposed to tone down Scourge and Heal guard. Another example of a build that would emerge if not for the nerfs being so broad in scope.

I'm glad a few people are still enjoying themselves, but I can hardly tolerate pvp in it's current state. No attention is ever given to weaker builds that were hit by nerfs that were never intended to impact them. If Anet did that, even on occasion, I'd agree with you.

[mistsim.2748]

While Scourge is easier to kill than before, it sucks that the other supps don't come even close when it comes to damage, utility, and sustain. For example, Tempest doesn't do any real damage. Shoutbreaker, same. Druid doesn't do any real healing. Shout Guard is quite squishy and vulnerable to condi spikes. And so on.

So as usual, something always slips through the cracks and becomes the only meta option. Anyone wanting to play other supports will be gimping their team.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat : Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish. The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

[Downstate.4697]

I think people are going to have to rethink what support means. For example, a weakness spamming hammer warrior could technically be a support. It just doesnt directly effect effective health. A DPS tempest that can spam air auras for the team could be considered somewhat of a support. All in all i think if every dps built for more supportive options it might overtake 1 person running full support options

[mistsim.2748]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:I think people are going to have to rethink what support means. For example, a weakness spamming hammer warrior could technically be a support. It just doesnt directly effect effective health. A DPS tempest that can spam air auras for the team could be considered somewhat of a support. All in all i think if every dps built for more supportive options it might overtake 1 person running full support options

Right now it's a Rez and DPS meta. So if you're not getting people up quickly, or doing massive damage, you're not contributing much. There's nothing really that any support other than Scourge can offer. Might as well roam/DPS and blow people up.

I played against some poor soul who was trying out the hammer warrior and he was absolutely useless. He played well too. He'd run in knock some people around, and melt to condis.

[Ovark.2514]

Actually, the real issue is that shade skills don't have unique enough animations to be differentiated in a fight, especially a teamfight. I have heard from some people that certain games allow players the option to ban their choice of spec before the match. GW2 would benefit greatly from this since each class is soon to have 4 possible specializations to choose from letting players who only know one class still have plenty of options if their spec gets banned. I don't think we would need to even suggest this if anet didn't balance only for high-end tournament play.

[Shao.7236]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

[Kuma.1503]

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

As someone else who mains core engi, I'll agree with you on one thing. This class isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I wish core power didn't feel like hot garbage, but core condi is legitimately threatening.

Edit: Related, but condi holo is also underrated atm. More of a roamer +1 focus to the condi engi build.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Shao.7236" said:I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done,

You are the one being lazy right now...because I never said that "nothing should be done" and I don't get why you KEEP saying that because this is the 2nd time you've said that to me.

[Shao.7236]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done,

You are the one being lazy right now...because I never said that "nothing should be done" and I don't get why you KEEP saying that because this is the 2nd time you've said that to me.

I hear, "no matter what happens it doesn't matter" anytime I have to read. The latter is the same, I don't despite your replies. I dislike the HUGE unnecessary context that is brought and complicates everything when all we want is progress. I know people can have superb ideas but we have to work within the realm of what CmC can do, nudging passively at what they could do better other than number tweaking does nothing for us other than stir the abundant negativity that takes over the forums over and over when things are actually improving.

I am being lazy because we don't need to stretch the topic so much. It sounds like "nothing should be done" when we come down to the philosophy of nothing is ever truly balanced at every chance we get.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

As someone else who mains core engi, I'll agree with you on one thing. This class isn't as bad as people make it out to be. I wish core power didn't feel like hot garbage, but core condi is legitimately threatening.

Edit: Related, but condi holo is also underrated atm. More of a roamer +1 focus to the condi engi build.

It always seemed that Classes that require multiple inputs to be effective have a better time with conditions because the reliance on critical hits doesn't exist. Landing Conditions and focusing on surviving after the fact works great with Engineer. Anyway not to deny, Jump Shot could hit harder for how long it's cooldown is and easy to avoid, same for Blunderbuss, have it up a notch. Tool Kit is otherwise REALLY good and shouldn't be underestimated as either power or condition, if only Engineer had the means to have lasting stability on stunbreak, it could stand a chance in more situations when playing Power for what I've noticed. However there is a lot of CC's to be played with, I think I'll still experiment with Power futhermore later to see if I can't squeeze anything out of core.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

You are lost in the contradictions of your own argument from one side you say the meta is flourishing and from the other you say that people should not expect these "new builds" to be working in the first place

[Shao.7236]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

You are lost in the contradictions of your own argument from one side you say the meta is flourishing and from the other you say that people should not expect these "new builds" to be working in the first place

No that's where you're missing the point, you're expecting everything to work where as it's obvious not everything will. We still got more builds to work out of this right now than we had years before.

The reply is just as expected, you gave me the unreasonable answer, why should everything miraculously work anyway? That's not what balanced implies, if we had said perfectly sure. Otherwise no, not everything will work. You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense by telling me so because not everyone has the brightest of ideas when it comes to their short comings.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

You are lost in the contradictions of your own argument from one side you say the meta is flourishing and from the other you say that people should not expect these "new builds" to be working in the first place

No that's where you're missing the point, you're expecting everything to work where as it's obvious not everything will. We still got more builds to work out of this right now than we had years before.

The reply is just as expected, you gave me the unreasonable answer, why should everything miraculously work anyway? That's not what balanced implies, if we had said perfectly sure. Otherwise no, not everything will work. You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense by telling me so because not everyone has the brightest of ideas when it comes to their short comings.

You gave the typical answer of somebody giving a lecture from the narrowness of their single point of view, you talk about an expanding meta when you don't play every class competitively to draw that conclusion in the first place, you sound like the guy in the city mocking the guy in the countryside why he hasn't got access to fibre internet.Do you actually understand what you're saying?

You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense

So there is only a predetermined way to play a class as all other options are not viable but then you say more options are becoming viable....what??

Player A: now your ele has got more ways to playPlayer B: cool so I can play FA ele and...Player A:lol no, it's still trashPlayer B: so nothing changed....Player A: no you can play what you were playing before but in different waysPlayer B: what other different ways?Player A: different ways d'ho!

...........

P.S the best part in all of this is the GW2 community:

Day1 : build diversity is low, population is low, Anet is badDay2 : "OMG build X on class Y is OP, pls nerf"Day3 : "OMG build K on class L is OP, pls nerf"Day4 : build diversity is low, population is low, Anet is bad

Rings any bell?

[UNOwen.7132]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

I mean its pretty much on the tin. Fewer options. The meta is shrinking because some good builds get nerfed, and others not so much, so the top gets smaller. However right now, we have the fewest playable builds in the games history. Pretty much have since the february megapatch.

[Kuma.1503]

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

You are lost in the contradictions of your own argument from one side you say the meta is flourishing and from the other you say that people should not expect these "new builds" to be working in the first place

No that's where you're missing the point, you're expecting everything to work where as it's obvious not everything will. We still got more builds to work out of this right now than we had years before.

The reply is just as expected, you gave me the unreasonable answer, why should everything miraculously work anyway? That's not what balanced implies, if we had said perfectly sure. Otherwise no, not everything will work. You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense by telling me so because not everyone has the brightest of ideas when it comes to their short comings.

I assure you it's not the people asking for the occasional buff and/or greater build diversity that are being unreasonable. I can see where you're coming from having backgrounds in the fighting game genre myself. It's pretty much been drilled into my head that this point that a player should "git gud and learn the matchup" rather than complain.

However, that's exactly what people refuse to do on this forum and that's what's gotten us to where we are now, not the opposite. And to top it off, they do this slimy thing where they impose a hypocritical double standard on anyone who tries to call them out on it.

Is Fire Weaver strong in the meta?

"It requires no skill. It needs to go it does not belong in PvP. It cannot be beaten when piloted by a good player. X player in the MAT played it and beat Y good player so what chance to us plebs have"

They use any combination of the above to justify getting the build nerfed. Notice anything about this reasoning? It's a refusal on the player's part to try and adapt to the build in question. There's no discussion on how to overcome your opponent, they just want the fight to be easier for them.

What happens if a build gets nerfed harder than necessary and becomes unplayable?

"Why are you complaining. That build needed to go. Instead of whining, git good and learn to play a build that requires effort"

Then a new OP build inevitably comes around, and the same person telling the other to git good begins to whine that the OP build needs shaves. You try to tell them how you an counter it and what response do you get?

"Stop defending your class/stop defending broken mechanics. Translation: I refuse to get good and adapt I want Anet to make the matchup easier for me"

This is the double standard I'm trying to do away with. This is why the meta is shrinking. Not because people want power creep, but because the people who refuse to adapt their approach repeatedly get what they want, and that has justified their mindset in their eyes.

[Shao.7236]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Fewer options, meta is shrinking. It's more likely that other supports are struggling to compete with it due to mender's removal. Meanwhile, scourge synergizes well with sage amulet so the nerfs are less felt on it.

Shortsighted changes didn't fix any underlying issues. Surprise surprise.What do you mean fewer options? Meta is shrinking because options are expanding. What makes it so many things are playable right now is because overpowered choices don't overshadowed most.

It's not that builds that were nerfed are considered Great rather then Meta on meta-battle are actually "great"...its more like players are forced to run the builds that work rather than what does not.

For example, the only reason I play full zerk Spectral Onslaught Reaper, is because many of the other configurations of reaper are absolutely garbage in a competitive format. I never WANTED to play this build...I HAVE to in order to stay relevant on a class i enjoy playing.

The same is really the case with many other builds...people want to create their own builds AND be competitive but they simply can't and have to default to the only builds that work...and so no matter how much some of these builds do get nerfed they will be played until they are nerfed to the level of garbage as the rest of the options they have.

In most cases, people don't bother anymore and just leave the game, because it's not fun to be forced to play something bad or to play something you never wanted to play.

I said this once in-game in map chat :

Just because you wipe out humanity, doesn't mean the pufferfish will flourish.

The pufferfish will be just as bad as it always was, and still struggle with the same struggles it has been going through all it's life.

And I'll tell you that when something sucks because of it's design, it will always suck because of it's design, just like how in PvE you have no reason to use certain skills because they're not useful in the aspect of PvE. It's no different for PvP and to expect it is unreasonable.

I would like you to not lazily back up your argument into my statement saying Anet is doing a bad job and it would be better if nothing hadn't been done, I heard it a thousand times by now. Anet is doing better than expected and a lot of things get to flourish despite the persistence of certain overpowered aspects, many things are always gonna be irrelevant and it's an undeniable fact while others will take more skill than others, that's up to the players doing so because that's how it has always been in any games. GW2 is not immune to that fact and it gets tiresome to hear so.

I was told Core P/P engineer sucks yet I'm actually gonna main it seriously because the skill ceiling with it is hella fun and rewarding to play as over being a carbon copy of the 9 other players I get paired against.

Finally people can create their own builds AND be competitive if they care to do it right, what doesn't work isn't anyone to blame but the user for simply expecting much from something that is expected to not work in practice. You have numbers then you have skill, very often the numbers mean nothing if the skill isn't up to part and it's time players accept that next to what isn't suited for what they want to do.

You are lost in the contradictions of your own argument from one side you say the meta is flourishing and from the other you say that people should not expect these "new builds" to be working in the first place

No that's where you're missing the point, you're expecting everything to work where as it's obvious not everything will. We still got more builds to work out of this right now than we had years before.

The reply is just as expected, you gave me the unreasonable answer, why should everything miraculously work anyway? That's not what balanced implies, if we had said perfectly sure. Otherwise no, not everything will work. You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense by telling me so because not everyone has the brightest of ideas when it comes to their short comings.

You gave the typical answer of somebody giving a lecture from the narrowness of their single point of view, you talk about an expanding meta when you don't play every class competitively to draw that conclusion in the first place, you sound like the guy in the city mocking the guy in the countryside why he hasn't got access to fibre internet.Do you actually understand what you're saying?

You're advocating for builds that also makes no sense

So there is only a predetermined way to play a class as all other options are not viable but then you say more options are becoming viable....what??

Player A: now your ele has got more ways to playPlayer B: cool so I can play FA ele and...Player A:lol no, it's still trashPlayer B: so nothing changed....Player A: no you can play what you were playing before but in different waysPlayer B: what other different ways?Player A: different ways d'ho!

...........

P.S the best part in all of this is the GW2 community:

Day1 : build diversity is low, population is low, Anet is badDay2 : "OMG build X on class Y is OP, pls nerf"Day3 : "OMG build K on class L is OP, pls nerf"Day4 : build diversity is low, population is low, Anet is bad

Rings any bell?

Should everyone assume I just play Revenant?

Dude, I never speak in the intend of objective perfection. It's under all my rights to tell you that I expected at least one person to point out that apparently my statement makes no sense because we don't have as many meta builds as we used to but have more choices to pick from? If we don't have that many if at all, what do you think it means? Definitely NOT a lack of diversity.

If the countryside individual complained about his Internet, I'd sure recommend them to at least go with Starlink to help their cause if moving out is an issue. It is what it is.

It's also in the philosophy of Metabattle alone to have the least builds as possible in their page so that we keep things simple. Pretty much tells you that if you want something pre-made for yourself, that's not going to be place you want to be

How about this. You can play FA Weaver except not in the way that "you" want it because it's limited by it's game design. Not gonna delve any further it in, I don't play it but I've seen people pull it off.

Why can't I play FA Core like I used to? Cantrips/Arcane have cooldowns too high/effects have been badly reduce, that's my take. Signets however, they work great and if I play Hybrid, all my skills are put to good use. Not quite the way I wanted it but it works, my focus being on Power more instead of Condition.

Of course many options will eventually pre-determined, did I say it wouldn't be? Diversity still implies more available choices, a net positive in the choices means an improvement. I'd go as far to say now all Core Professions have at least one build that can be mastered and be extremely strong with, whatever may be. Not something you could do before.

It'd be also appreciated if players stopped blaming the game all the time and actually see through what can be done. It would be easier to know what doesn't work and where it falls in situations it should exceed.

[Quadox.7834]

i agree with shao that diversity in regards to specialization choice is higher, at least for mesmer, where chrono mirage and core are all playable and have some advantages over one another. in previous patches (pre-feb but especially in early PoF and early HoT) core was just unplayable compared to mirage/chrono. and from what i've seen there is a similar case on most other professions (ele probably being the worst one, but then again weaver/tempest are both good and different from eachother so even ele is a 2/3).

[Bazsi.2734]

@Ovark.2514 said:Actually, the real issue is that shade skills don't have unique enough animations to be differentiated in a fight, especially a teamfight. I have heard from some people that certain games allow players the option to ban their choice of spec before the match. GW2 would benefit greatly from this since each class is soon to have 4 possible specializations to choose from letting players who only know one class still have plenty of options if their spec gets banned. I don't think we would need to even suggest this if anet didn't balance only for high-end tournament play.

This is a horrible idea. Imagine you're still new, and the 2-3 builds you're somewhat comfortable with are all banned. Or a coordinated team can just ban all condibuilds and not bother with cleanses... or the exact reverse of this, banning all support builds and going full condispam.I can't even imagine a system that operates with our current build diversity, and none of the above is possible. Even just banning 2 or 3 fotm builds completely changes the match because it eliminates half of the game. Maybe when we have like 50+ viable build for competetive play, something like this could work. But several x-pacs with new e-specs have to drop for that, so.... maybe in 10 years?