Class switching before match start

[Shao.7236]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:27 PM, Filip.7463 said:

when u will get 2 thieves or 2 sup guards on ur team and only 1 in oppo u will say ur own post isnt smart

We have build templates now, shouldn't be hard to switch around to something else.

[Disney.7826]

13 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

We have build templates now, shouldn't be hard to switch around to something else.

2 thieves ummm its same kitten if they are condi or dd... dps guard isnt viable

[razaelll.8324]

21 minutes ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

You totally misread the entire thing. Look at the configuration to see what it does. 

 

It tries to prefent classstacking as much as possible.  Thats all it does when it comes to differentiating professions.  

 

Youre making it sound as if professions are rated based on strength and thats tied to the MMR algorithm. This is not the case tho.

 

 

 

Sure mate, what ever you say.

 

You didnt event knew that it takes proffesions under consideration, but i am the one misreading it...

 

Did you read all of the parameters and their description?

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Sereath.1428]

Only multi-classers like the current class swapping minigame before the match starts since it's a colossal advantage over anyone that does not multi-class.
The vast majority of GW2 players (goes for any MMO) only have one character where they put most of their playtime on, aka having a main. Most can only afford getting good at one thing at a time and that's usually the character they have the most fun with.

 

So if ANET wants to continue closing the gap between players, I'd rather they get rid of class swapping than to keep dumbing down class mechanics even further (with mantras being their latest victim).

Edited May 30, 2021 by XxsdgxX.8109

[Stand The Wall.6987]

3 hours ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

So how many classes have multiple roles that are remotely viable at decent rating? Guard and ele comes to mind but support ele is on the weaker end of the spectrum and so is DH. 

 

Ideally your teams needs at least:

 

1 support

1 Teamfighter preferably with off heals (think scourge). 

1 sidenoder

1 roamer. 

 

Dont be surprised if youll end up in teams that cant swap to viable support, roamer or sidenoder roles. 

 

lets look at the tier list according to Drazeh; one of the better multiclassers in the game:

 

https://imgur.com/a/Erm1mgP

 

So matchmaking can be abused when ppl swap from class A to B? But if ppl swap from lets say Firebrand (absolute bottom) to core support guard (best support in the game) that is fine? 

 

Makes sense. 

 

Or if youre playing a class that S+ and get matched based on that....yet youre forced to play some other role in which u + class are closer to the bottom.  Also screws matchmaking. 

class swapping allows meta gaming to go out of control. if you don't think thats a problem, then why would you want people to be able to switch from the least powerful (to deny others a q spot) classes in the meta to the most powerful at the very last moment (now the match is skewed in your favor)? its legal match manipulation. ideally teams in random q's need 5 good players. yes, if you can switch to any class you can get an ideal team, but again, why reinforce the most powerful meta classes? aren't you tired of fighting the best builds in the game, don't you think its a problem that meta builds get spammed and those builds get hard nerfed, next one pops up and the cycle continues ad nauseum? no one is forcing you to play some other role, thats entirely self imposed and many times people refuse to switch anyways. assuming you want to switch tho, if that other role is less powerful in the meta, but better in your sidenode/ teamfight match ups, how is it a worse choice? meta builds are meta cuz they have the least amount of counters/ bad match ups. yet there are plenty of cases when switching to a less meta build is better for that match overall. that meta tier list is irrelevant when classes are locked, its all about what match ups you're getting and how you change your build to counter them.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

profession lock would have a profound effect on balance imo. being able to switch to any class only promotes meta gaming to the n'th degree, and reinforces do it all meta builds that few like playing and playing against. this would only be viable tho if mm didn't fudge up the class distribution, double anything (except rev/ necro) would be an insta loss or highly unfavorable. so maybe relying on anet to fix mm would be a bad idea lol, but anyway this is unlikely to go thru so whatever. 

[Locuz.2651]

1 hour ago, razaelll.8324 said:

Did you read all of the parameters and their description?

 

Did you? All the parameters only state profession count... where does it say profession weight or something similar? Where do you see it adds a value to a specific class? 

 

The only thing it does is prefent class stacking.

 

As i said, it wouldnt make sense if they did either. Since some professions have top AND bottom tier builds. So you wouldnt be able to play anything besides the top tier builds since according to you matchmaking would see you as if you play top tier meta even if you played for example firebrand (bottom tier). 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[Locuz.2651]

7 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

being able to switch to any class only promotes meta gaming to the n'th degree

 

The direct opposite of what you said is true. 

You know what would happen? Ppl would only play a profession that is never a bad pick. Professions that can do a bit of all. 

 

Protection holo for example. 

 

So no that change will make make the matchups more meta and more monotone than ever before.  

[razaelll.8324]

1 hour ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

Did you? All the parameters only state profession count... where does it say profession weight or something similar? Where do you see it adds a value to a specific class? 

 

The only thing it does is prefent class stacking.

 

As i said, it wouldnt make sense if they did either. Since some professions have top AND bottom tier builds. So you wouldnt be able to play anything besides the top tier builds since according to you matchmaking would see you as if you play top tier meta even if you played for example firebrand (bottom tier). 

Read it again then and try to use your brain. You can also read the pseudo code too.

 

"The metrics used during this phase include: rating, rank, games played, party size, profession, and dishonor. With each metric the system is looking for players that are as close as possible to the average of those already selected. The system also attempts to keep the number of duplicate professions to a minimum."

 

It tryes to match the players already selected so if the selected team has 2 mesmers in it , the algorithm will try to find also 2 mesmers with similar rating for the enemy team and ONLY if there are no mesmers with close score it will take another classes

I am done talking to you since in my opinion you are just refusing to see the obvious issue and not bringing anything constructive to the conversation.

I agreed with your point that class switching is needed at high rating because there is more unlikely to have ppl with close mmr and same classes, but still the algorithm is exploitable and could be improved to solve the issue i am pointing out and if you are unable to see it then i dont have anything more to discus with you

Have a great night and be healthy!

Edited May 30, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Locuz.2651 said:

 

The direct opposite of what you said is true. 

You know what would happen? Ppl would only play a profession that is never a bad pick. Professions that can do a bit of all. 

 

Protection holo for example. 

 

So no that change will make make the matchups more meta and more monotone than ever before.  

maybe for a few people who have to win at any cost, but for the majority of the player base who wants to have fun it would be a good deal. why take gw2 seriously in this day and age, like wtf man? i don't understand this reasoning. 

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Filip.7463 said:

2 thieves ummm its same kitten if they are condi or dd... dps guard isnt viable

Whateeeever, I've seen everything. No matter how niche the complains are they'll never top the problem class switching has.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 5/28/2021 at 11:37 PM, razaelll.8324 said:

Hello Arenanet,

 

If someone of you guys read this i would like to sujest to remove class switching before match start. As far as i know your match making system is trying to prevent class stacking, but it becomes pointless when people can switch their class after the match making is done. This also allows people to match manipulate by signing in with a class which is not played much and switch to meta class after they enter the match and in this way they can stack same class in the same team. In my opinion this should not be allowed because of the reason above.

 

In my opinion people witch try to switch class before the match start should get dishonor.

 

People should be able to return in the match only if they go on the same class witch they signed in for the match.

 

Thank you for your time in advance and stay healthy!

Uff I saw your post 2 days ago didn't believe it would take so much attention in that short time.

Anyway I posted about this problem before few months ago people were more like I don't see a problem even some 'experts 'like MightyTeaPot answered me with " I see no problem there".

 

There are also problems like how you can farm rank point without playing against  similar skilled players which was really see able in the last season. Actually I got toxic because people were in absolute denial of all this.

 

So I tested how much it brings last 5vs 5 season for me as non meta dps build + Healbreaker when needed. Unfortunately I hadn't one who run duo with me to maximize the effect. In peak it were 300 rank point more  and in total around 200 then I had the last 5v5 season before this.

(I wanted to post this earlier but because of the 11 may patch I forgot complete about this)

 

The effect isn't so great the problem is there is more then just one thing which goes wrong in GW2s sPvP. I mean the effect would be reduced or be 0 when:

 

0.) There is no reroll

1.) Classes are balanced and because people couldn't sirens in a class which is hard underperforming.

2.) People would play more support so my reroll would have less effect because support is already taken.

(to explain during my test about 7 out of 10 matchups my team had no supporter so I did it  because Arena.NET loves to screw with them)

3.) When more people would reroll when everyone adjust to the situation the effect is 0.

4.) A better working ranking point system would also dampening the effect.

 

Point 1 to 4 are basically systems which are in place to stop or limit the effect of tying some match manipulation but they how could I say " They are like an aquarium which loses water but they a not complete busted"  but because they working only in an restricted mode you can trill your way to an higher ranking then I should have by stacking effects.

 

I think 10-20% of the sPvP community have started to do this hardcore I mean not all doing this but also we actually know that in the top 50 strange things goes on people properly fighting themselves with alt accounts or something like this.

 

Finally I must say point 0 is really the lazy solution because all of this I just wished people would at least be aware that they could reroll when it is allowed and that they need a condi cleaner , might and a decap build. Basicly an UI overwork which shows the build of your team and message that informs people that they can switch their build and should talking to each other about their strategy.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Lord of the Fire.6870
Better the language

[Stand The Wall.6987]

1 hour ago, Locuz.2651 said:

snips

what if professions were locked at a minute before match start, then build switching was locked 30 sec later? would that be a good middle ground?

Edited May 30, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Locuz.2651]

1 hour ago, razaelll.8324 said:

It tryes to match the players already selected so if the selected team has 2 mesmers in it , the algorithm will try to find also 2 mesmers with similar rating for the enemy team

 

No it doenst work like that....

 

It finds a group of players who are relatively close in terms of MMR. And after that its starts distributing players between teams. 

 

Thats the phase 1 and phase 2 they talk about: MMR first.....and then they distribute based on a few things incl prof games played  etcf etc. 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Locuz.2651

[Shao.7236]

I've said that many times before but I will again, the moment you accept the Queue, your profession should be locked.

 

There's a timer to accept, this timer can be increased for people to swap to their desired character if needed on their slow loading times. 1 minute is a good amount over the simple 30 seconds we have right now.

[Puck.3697]

On 5/28/2021 at 10:37 PM, razaelll.8324 said:

Hello Arenanet,

 

If someone of you guys read this i would like to sujest to remove class switching before match start. As far as i know your match making system is trying to prevent class stacking, but it becomes pointless when people can switch their class after the match making is done. This also allows people to match manipulate by signing in with a class which is not played much and switch to meta class after they enter the match and in this way they can stack same class in the same team. In my opinion this should not be allowed because of the reason above.

 

In my opinion people witch try to switch class before the match start should get dishonor.

 

People should be able to return in the match only if they go on the same class witch they signed in for the match.

 

Thank you for your time in advance and stay healthy!

 

i kinda disagree a major issue is the game has no set roles. to ensure the your teams balanced... like walking into a team of 3 mirages a thief and a Soulbeast is obvious Set up for disaster and if u remove peoples ability to fix that ur leaving peoples winrates on complete RNG.

 

its important players can co-ordinate to give themselves the best chance of winning.

[Disney.7826]

2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Whateeeever, I've seen everything. No matter how niche the complains are they'll never top the problem class switching has.

I dont get what class switching problem is, there is no problem with it

[Shao.7236]

18 minutes ago, Filip.7463 said:

I dont get what class switching problem is, there is no problem with it

There is, rock paper scissor while showing your existing choice already is a problem.

[Abyssisis.3971]

I’m torn on this one as I’ve been known to switch from a power pew pew soulbeast to a condi soulbeast depending on who I’m up against, but I also believe that the class you click to queue with should be the class you play the match as.

[Khalisto.5780]

On 5/29/2021 at 5:31 AM, Aktium.9506 said:

It's a sacrifice I am willing to make 👍

too bad, cuz ppl would still be able to swap after map selection

[razaelll.8324]

11 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

i kinda disagree a major issue is the game has no set roles. to ensure the your teams balanced... like walking into a team of 3 mirages a thief and a Soulbeast is obvious Set up for disaster and if u remove peoples ability to fix that ur leaving peoples winrates on complete RNG.

 

its important players can co-ordinate to give themselves the best chance of winning.

Hi,

Thats a fair point as was discussed in this thread. My main concern is that with class changing the matchmaking system can be manipulated.

After the first phase of the match making algorithm (MMR sorting) the second phase is trying to prevent class stacking and also match the classes used in both of the teams in order to balance the match (for example if team A has 2 mesmers it will try also to put 2 mesmers in team B) and at the lower rating up to plat1 the match making system is doing very good job at it because there are many players around same MMR. But when you class change after that match making is done the balance which the matchmaking system achieved is ruined. At higher rating this problem is not seen that much because there are much less ppl with close MMR so the match making system cannot balance the teams that well (in terms of classes) and there the class changing is helping out if you are placed in loosing matchup. So i understand that my suggestion is not best because it will create a problem specially at higher rating, but still the match making can and is being exploited to gain advantage in balanced teams. Also swapping just before the match starts leave no room for adapting by your enemy team which can give good advantage to your team.

An example how the system can be manipulated: Get in duo queue as double warrior  or mesmer , then the system will try to match your enemy team to have also double warrior or mesmer and just before the match starts you can switch to better classes. This i see happening a lot around g2/p1 rating and i think it should be addressed in my opinion. 

Thats why it was suggested in the thread that when you sign up you also can specify classes on which you can switch so the match making system can do its job properly without being shunted.

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Spartacus.3192]

On 5/28/2021 at 5:37 PM, razaelll.8324 said:

Hello Arenanet,

 

If someone of you guys read this i would like to sujest to remove class switching before match start. As far as i know your match making system is trying to prevent class stacking, but it becomes pointless when people can switch their class after the match making is done. This also allows people to match manipulate by signing in with a class which is not played much and switch to meta class after they enter the match and in this way they can stack same class in the same team. In my opinion this should not be allowed because of the reason above.

 

In my opinion people witch try to switch class before the match start should get dishonor.

 

People should be able to return in the match only if they go on the same class witch they signed in for the match.

 

Thank you for your time in advance and stay healthy!

people have been asking for prevention of class switching for years. ANET held a vote and "This Community" said no. So we can't blame ANET, blame the players who voted.

 

Meanwhile enjoy the "manipulation" which isn't manipulation because ANET specifically addressed the issue and submitted to the will of the players to allow it. 

 

Only thing that ANET could do is do another poll/vote. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Spartacus.3192

[razaelll.8324]

8 minutes ago, Spartacus.3192 said:

people have been asking for prevention of class switching for years. ANET held a vote and "This Community" said no. So we can't blame ANET, blame the players who voted.

 

Meanwhile enjoy the "manipulation" which isn't manipulation because ANET specifically addressed the issue and submitted to the will of the players to allow it. 

 

Only thing that ANET could do is do another poll/vote. 

Yes i didn't knew about that when i posted my suggestion but 1 more person also mentioned that poll. Thank for the info tho. 

 

 

I am not blaming Anet for anything, in fact i am supporting them becuase in my opinion gw2 is a great mmorpg as is, so i am just sharing my opinion and giving a suggestion on something which might be improved.

Edited June 1, 2021 by razaelll.8324

[Mik.3401]

I think the current system is just a bit too vague when it comes to team composition. And switching characters in random arenas is one of the biggest problems indeed.

 

The only clear, accessible way to play pvp are random arenas with an ability to switch. You can build up your team for tournaments - but that’s not something people would like to do most of the time I suppose due to risk and perceived intensity.

 

They just should introduce arenas for teams for single matches and keep random arenas random from start to finish. I know there are arenas on pvp server search, but for some reason no one uses it for any other reason than reward afk farm or fuel with a mate. So they need to introduce new option in a clear way being few clicks away, maybe as another button next to the two existing ones for Unranked and ranked random arenas? 
Like you could click ‘team arena’ which would queue you for team match (as long as you are in a team of 5) where you could switch characters. That could revive pvp group lfg if there was nice rewards associated with it.

 

i think what holds Anet back is the decreasing pvp population, but without any fundamental changes , this will just get worse

Edited June 8, 2021 by Mik.3401