When some classes are too strong...

[Crab Fear.1624]

------Team fighting----

 

Necro is not the only team fighter or with mobility issues, and so it should not be the absolutely dominant team fighter.

 

If two team fighters go in a 1 v 1, (because it happens), the necro team fighter should not be essentially guaranteed the 1 v 1.

 

If you are making it able to duel better than another team fighter and bring better support to the table, then it is TOOOOO strong.

 

Remember there are other team fighters in the game.

 

----Projectile and Melee Denial-----

 

Some of the AOE reflects and projectile denial are too strong, and so are the melee and projectile skills.

 

The ele skill, the necro skill, the thief skill (smoke) all need a reduction in presence. Slightly longer cool-downs, slightly shorter duration.

 

----Stealth, Superspeed, Quickness like candy----

 

I don't think letting superspeed stack is wise.

 

Base stealth skills should go down to 2 seconds and require a trait to make them 1 second longer at best. Snipers cover should not be affected either way, and if not remove the stealth max it to 1 second. Put a longer cd in between charge uses for meld with shadows.

 

Too much quickness....period. Remove pulsing quickness, remove traits that have low cds (less than 45s) for quickness. Max the quickness given from skills to 3 secs, MAX.

 

---Thief, Repeater, Flip Skill----

 

This should be a 1 time cast, not a time based skill. You hit with shadow strike, and you can use repeater one time, hit or miss.

 

---Passive damage boosts that are not in line with previous philosophy---

 

Consider mug, and impacting disruption, one requires a skill use on decent cd (steal, swipe, mark), and one requires one to interrupt a skill to take effect, but they can not critically strike. Also, the guardian rebuke skill, and the hammer skill, and necro skill traits......but...You allow other skills to hit critically that don't require such requirements to be met. I suggest  remove the ability for all passive damage sources to  crit, or allow those others to crit, but maybe reduce their coeffis if too high....match em up.

 

---1200 Power 900 Toughness 900 Precision needs to come back if you are going to kepp 1200 Condi 900 Toughness 900 Precision---

 

There are condition traits that benefit from the precision, please don't act like you are fooling anyone and saying the damage would be higher.

 

Would still need to sacrifice for ferocity.

 

---Hard CC doesn't need to be ZERO damage---

 

yes, i know, it is not zero, but its like 50-100 max.....

1/3 of the old damage for all hard cc skills should be good enough to be impactful, and that is what I suggest bringing them up to.

 

Consider if scourge stands out from other necros and why that is....

 

I think if you dont want to bring anyone down, you need to bring others up.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Shao.7236]

Power Damage is still not comparable to Condition Damage, Knight had niche broken aspects only for Ranger to benefit while Rabid fills a broader range if not all possible assets to Condi builds for everyone.

 

Instead of a wide nerf that would basically kill Ranger in everyway even as zerk, it was wiser to take it out since nobody used it and to be fair, nobody could benefit from it in a sensical way unlike dealing damage overtime which requires sustain to be as good. Rabid is one of them. Knight on the other hand is full on cheese for only Ranger with an unaffected pet, traits and bonuses that raises the efficient to good levels while infinitely dancing around nodes with 4 players chasing.

 

I can agree with certain things but not this.

[Bazsi.2734]

19 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

---Thief, Repeater, Flip Skill----

 

This should be a 1 time cast, not a time based skill. You hit with shadow strike, and you can use repeater one time, hit or miss.

 

This is a good idea. Therefore it will not happen.

[Tayga.3192]

So as far as I can understand, you want to make Lightning Rod unable to crit?

Edited June 10, 2021 by Tayga.3192
LR -> Lightning Rod

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Agree Knights should come back and CC should still do power damage based on the skill. Something like backbreaker which is a long-cast melee skill should hurt if you actually get hit by it. Reaper shroud 5 as well.

 

They're skills that look painful visually but then crit for 34 damage. What a joke.

Imagine if Goku spent 54 episodes charging his spirit bomb just to chuck it and slightly tickle Frieza. That's post-Feb 25th PvP for you.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

Okay my 5 and 1/2 cents to this from my Gold 2-3 perspective.

-----Team fighting----

 

Yeah necro is devastating against other builds this not because of dmg but barrier + soft cc + big hp pool making it like sponge absorbing incoming dmg the chill also reduce the incoming dmg + you can't escape if you don't have an insane amount of condi clear.  So either Arena.NET start pushing builds or we got another case of Arena.NET can only do nerfs. Before the F2020 patch some classes had already struggle but the general higher dps was made it not so pronounce like it was at the start of Pof and now.

 

----Projectile and Melee Denial-----

 

Yes a lot of builds have projectile hate but this was mainly HFB in the past which was forced out . The problem why this is this way is when you far away nobody can reach you and stopping you from doing dmg so the game has reflects and absorbing for it.

 

Core guard can still use wall and shield for this, Ele has magnetic aura which you either get by overload in earth or having I think horn in the off-hand which is for many not a choice they would make(except me).

 

In general those loaner build like Fire Weaver, Mirage and Ranger(Soulbeast) perform very poorly at least in gold rank . This has to do how Arena.NET nerfed them but also people who play them are mostly how could I say loner they both from playstyle of the class but also often in general many of them you don't get answers out in your match up.

 

Let me explain in the current setup you only get might from one or two classes in you team if you go solo you doing 1/5 to 1/3 of the dmg .Yes Aren.NET did some screw up balancing push for that the most tanky builds also doing the most dmg but it is not all their fault.

 

----Stealth, Superspeed, Quickness like candy---

 

Superspeed I only now this from WvW as a problem but yes the CD for those skill I think is too short.

Stealth is broken since I know this game too less counter play.

 

Quickness I don't know you properly mean Scrapper new quickness source for all ? Basically they deleted it in the past so nobody could have meaning full access to it in sPvP and WvW at least for the team it possible they will do it again. Holo/Engi itself is a complete different problem because the base dmg of this class is relative low so their core mechanic became doping you up with boons(Elixirs) originally it was those towers you can  put down .

 

This class was originally basically a copy/paste out of Team Fortress but they forgot to add the "you need to take care of you stuff mechanic"  so people got upset about it and Arena.NET nerfed to the ground and needed to replace it with something.

 

---Hard CC doesn't need to be ZERO damage--

 

I think people misunderstand this a lot before the patch cc skills already done only 10% of the dmg of other skill they nerfed it further to 1% . Because of this Arena.NET seems to have thought make it then worth it by nerfing cFB certainly this will end up in a meaningful balance  -.-.  NO IT DOESN'T

 

What happened was people didn't stop using those skill and without cFB when both sides doing it the dps drops considerable like to 1/5 of what it is normally.

 

The same is when both sides using condis as dmg and both sides have enough condi clean.

 

The last point is the block skill which let burst dmg like from Mirage evaporate.

 

All those 3 points is what people point at when they talk about the bunker meta if they know it or not.

More dmg on the cc skills will not help you much when you can't stop getting cc yourself.

 

 

 

 

[aymnad.9023]

1 hour ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Agree Knights should come back and CC should still do power damage based on the skill. Something like backbreaker which is a long-cast melee skill should hurt if you actually get hit by it. Reaper shroud 5 as well.

 

They're skills that look painful visually but then crit for 34 damage. What a joke.

Imagine if Goku spent 54 episodes charging his spirit bomb just to chuck it and slightly tickle Frieza. That's post-Feb 25th PvP for you.

Sorry but Reaper 5 is definitely a perfect counter example. Reaper is already impactful. Anytime you land the 5 you are able to freely cast something else which is huge for them!

The past months should have taught people how cc already has a huge value and is dangerous. I am getting more and more concerned by this suggestion because people are at the same time

1. complaining about cc
2. asking for damage on cc

CCs  are getting used better by a lot of players and getting more and more crucial in fights (also one of the reasons core guard is key).

Edited June 10, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

36 minutes ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Sorry but Reaper 5 is definitely a perfect counter example. Reaper is already impactful. Anytime you land the 5 you are able to freely cast something else which is huge for them!

The past months should have taught people how cc already has a huge value and is dangerous. I am getting more and more concerned by this suggestion because people are at the same time

1. complaining about cc
2. asking for damage on cc

CCs  are getting used better by a lot of players and getting more and more crucial in fights (also one of the reasons core guard is key).

I know what you mean. I play a CC spam build with 12 different CCs after the nerfpocalypse. 

 

What people don't seem to understand is that if CC actually did damage, and if it could be used to set up for combos that actually do damage as well, then there'd be less of it.

 

They've historically always done less damage so if I was playing strength spellbreaker and I landed a bull's charge, I wouldn't want to follow up with stacking more CC because I could swap to GS and actually do a decent damage follow up. 

 

But now pretty much any follow up is going to tickle, so it's best to just stack CC effects and stall fights as long as possible.

Then there's things like the torment change which just encourage CC spam even more.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Agree Knights should come back and CC should still do power damage based on the skill. Something like backbreaker which is a long-cast melee skill should hurt if you actually get hit by it. Reaper shroud 5 as well.

 

They're skills that look painful visually but then crit for 34 damage. What a joke.

Imagine if Goku spent 54 episodes charging his spirit bomb just to chuck it and slightly tickle Frieza. That's post-Feb 25th PvP for you.

I thought about  making a meme about that and posting it on my way home from work today 😆

[Fueki.4753]

I'd like Arenanet to revert the removal of CC damage.

 

But I'd also like Arenanet to prevent stun locks, by making CC NOT affect people who already are CC'd (I think GW1 handled CC that way).

This would be a much more elegant solution than the current CC spam.

But for all we can see, Arenanet has an undying love towards people vomiting CC on others.

[Gorem.8104]

Oh man do I wish we'd see a reduction in this power creep that is the ability to entirely shut down range abilities. You have a range absorb and you have a range reflect and you have a range block! Lets also make a lot of then large aoe domes! 

 

That and CC to actually do damage with effects some classes and weapons a lot more then others. There should be Diminishing returns on CC (other games do this) that way you can't just be chain cc'd and killed. It would mean less reliance on Stab. 

 

It is rather funny how if you do go Condi damage, you do good damage while having better defences then power builds. 

[aymnad.9023]

On 6/11/2021 at 1:06 AM, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

I know what you mean. I play a CC spam build with 12 different CCs after the nerfpocalypse. 

Well I fought a build like that. Once your average 2 stunbreaks are gone you can go grab a drink and wait which is not fun. I could mention dodges but they are also limited and nobody is going to avoid everything perfectly (+ some random source of damage).
As gimmicky as heavy cc builds sound they are not bad in practice. Last season I was playing chrono and it was decent at holding a node (the enemy often get cced which buys time and makes landing damage easier) and I would contribute in teamfight (by locking down a target).

 

Quote

What people don't seem to understand is that if CC actually did damage, and if it could be used to set up for combos that actually do damage as well, then there'd be less of it.

There would not be less cc. How many builds have more cc now than what they used to have? The reality is that they all have the same amount of cc skills and similar or even increased cds as before.

 

Edit :  Maybe you could provide some examples or details? Most of the current meta / competitive builds are similar to what they used to have. The only exception I can think of were decap builds which were few and more a consequence of the global nerf than cc nerf. The same nerf also allowed to bring support builds back.

 

Quote

They've historically always done less damage so if I was playing strength spellbreaker and I landed a bull's charge, I wouldn't want to follow up with stacking more CC because I could swap to GS and actually do a decent damage follow up. 

 

But now pretty much any follow up is going to tickle, so it's best to just stack CC effects and stall fights as long as possible.

Then there's things like the torment change which just encourage CC spam even more.

 

In general cc is already rewarding because it buys time, now people have gotten use to the changes and do not waste ccs as much as before, defenses (passive and active) have been reduced. There are a lot of reasons to not want this change. You probably would not want to give those builds more qualities than the one I mention earlier.

Edited June 11, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[frareanselm.1925]

When the skill n4 of rangers longbow and engi rifle does less attack thant the autoattack... its total nonsense...

I'm 100% agree CC doesnt have to mean zero damage!!

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

Well I fought a build like that. Once your average 2 stunbreaks are gone you can go grab a drink and wait which is not fun. I could mention dodges but they are also limited and nobody is going to avoid everything perfectly (+ some random source of damage).
As gimmicky as heavy cc builds sound they are not bad in practice. Last season I was playing chrono and it was decent at holding a node (the enemy often get cced which buys time and makes landing damage easier) and I would contribute in teamfight (by locking down a target).

I know they aren't bad. I just said I play one. They're stronger now than they ever were before.

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

 

There would not be less cc. How many builds have more cc now than what they used to have? The reality is that they all have the same amount of cc skills and similar or even increased cds as before.

It's not about having any actual more or less than they used to. The reason there's so much CC now is the result of it doing no damage, damage being reduced in general, and increased(sometimes ridiculously so) CD's on Stunbreaks.

 

Before CC did damage, but less damage. Damage was was higher in general, and Stunbreaks could be used more often. There was also more access to boons like stab. 

 

All that in mind, now you can totally rock a mace/shield + Hammer warrior and breeze through games without a single death or a single kill. Just booping people and wasting their time for 10 minutes basically. 

 

Back when things actually did damage and there were more ways to deal with CC, you wouldn't rock Mace/shield + Hammer because you had the option to go for a damage build like Strength dagger. You might take like 3 CC skills total, 6 if you count rampage. 

Now it's up to 12, because Strength dagger is a squishy mess of a build, low sustain, low damage. High risk, low-reward like most other pure power damage builds in the game. Unless you're trying to style, there's 0 reason not to play something tanky that just chains CC's all day.

 

11 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

In general cc is already rewarding because it buys time, now people have gotten use to the changes and do not waste ccs as much as before, defenses (passive and active) have been reduced. There are a lot of reasons to not want this change. You probably would not want to give those builds more qualities than the one I mention earlier.

As a person who plays a CC vomit build I take offense. All I do is throw out CC's and blocks randomly because there's no consequence for doing so and most the skills are refreshed in 10s or less. Heck, by the time Backbreaker is even done casting, mace 3 is probably already done. 

 

But i'm sure you're right. If I was wasting time actually trying to play a fun build in a 0 damage PvP game, then yes I probably would try to time all my stuff efficiently. There is no damage though, so why would I do something like that when I can put in 0 effort and win every time while also leveling up my Fishing skill on OSRS on the side? 

[aymnad.9023]

8 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

I know they aren't bad. I just said I play one. They're stronger now than they ever were before.

It's not about having any actual more or less than they used to. The reason there's so much CC now is the result of it doing no damage, damage being reduced in general, and increased(sometimes ridiculously so) CD's on Stunbreaks.

You said there would be less cc which is why I asked this.

 

Quote

Before CC did damage, but less damage. Damage was was higher in general, and Stunbreaks could be used more often. There was also more access to boons like stab. 

I pretty much agree with this because I also said it 🙂 and I think this is the core of the problem.

Quote

All that in mind, now you can totally rock a mace/shield + Hammer warrior and breeze through games without a single death or a single kill. Just booping people and wasting their time for 10 minutes basically. 

 

Back when things actually did damage and there were more ways to deal with CC, you wouldn't rock Mace/shield + Hammer because you had the option to go for a damage build like Strength dagger. You might take like 3 CC skills total, 6 if you count rampage. 

Now it's up to 12, because Strength dagger is a squishy mess of a build, low sustain, low damage. High risk, low-reward like most other pure power damage builds in the game. Unless you're trying to style, there's 0 reason not to play something tanky that just chains CC's all day.

 

As a person who plays a CC vomit build I take offense. All I do is throw out CC's and blocks randomly because there's no consequence for doing so and most the skills are refreshed in 10s or less. Heck, by the time Backbreaker is even done casting, mace 3 is probably already done. 

 

But i'm sure you're right. If I was wasting time actually trying to play a fun build in a 0 damage PvP game, then yes I probably would try to time all my stuff efficiently. There is no damage though, so why would I do something like that when I can put in 0 effort and win every time while also leveling up my Fishing skill on OSRS on the side? 

 

 

Well yes. I am playing with mace on warrior. While the cd on F1cd  is on par with the rest, a 3s stun almost every 8s sure feels right doesn’t it ?

With heavy cc professions if you take the a single cc by itself and they look fine, but once you add up the rest it becomes ridiculous. Adding damage would just make them even worst. On the other hand if you take a dps build and add damage to the cc you make it more deadly. In both cases it works against what has been done for a year.

Edited June 12, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, aymnad.9023 said:

On the other hand if you take a dps build and add damage to the cc you make it more deadly. In both cases it works against what has been done for a year.

Okay, now i'm starting to understand this better I think.

 

Yeah I don't like what's been done for over a year personally, so anything that goes against that i'm all for.

Well most of it. The skill's team did a nice job shaking things up, I think. The rest; the year & 1/2 of nerfs, amulet removals, all that. No like. Find very boring. 

[aymnad.9023]

1 hour ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Okay, now i'm starting to understand this better I think.

 

Yeah I don't like what's been done for over a year personally, so anything that goes against that i'm all for.

Well most of it. The skill's team did a nice job shaking things up, I think. The rest; the year & 1/2 of nerfs, amulet removals, all that. No like. Find very boring. 

I can understand. But while some change seemed questionable, in the end, before the mechanical changes, I think we had a massive diversity in the game.

Edited June 12, 2021 by aymnad.9023