So when are pets gonna be put at a reasonable level?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

16 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

All this whining just prove one thing: Ranger is overdue for a deep full overhaul where all pets, traits and skills are reworked and re-balanced for current damage and gameplay expectations. 

 

All this issues can be resumed to : 

Ranger hasn't got any siginificant rework from 2012 and it keeps mechanics and designs which are not longer acceptable in current gameplay.

 

Core pets need a full overhaul and pets need to work better, stick better to highly mobile targets due to the moblity creep, do less damage and bring much more utility to the ranger toolset. 

 

Traitline and skills are also in deep need of a full overhaul.  Weapons need to do as much damage as other classes and pets do small contribution to that but mainly focus in expanding the ranger toolset as it is easier to balance than having a random AI doing it's thing with big packet damage skills.  

 

Ranger should not be able to play afk while the AI is doing all the work and a random attack with no control from the player part decides the combat. 

 

Every single bit of time that they have invested into Ranger within the past 3 or 4 years as been repeat machine gun nerfing Druid over and over and over and over.

 

That's what happened.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

pets should be able to do something, its a kittenin class mechanic people. its not a utility bar ai. most of the pet skills have high cds, and most other profession mechanics are way more oppressive. get over it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 6/12/2021 at 9:48 AM, Axl.8924 said:

What i wish is that they would overhaul some of the pets.

 

Some pets suck so bad that they leave much to be desired. I fear the reason for this, is because ANET wants you to buy the newest expansion so you can get the newest pets.

 

This is the main thing.

 

Pets other than smokescale/birds/rock gazelle/iboga/jacaranda meta need some functionality added. There should be a larger pool of viable pets.

 

Of the meta, smokescale knockdown needs slightly more windup for its telegraph. The sound indication and visual indication happen -as- the knockdown is happening. they should happen before. 

 

Also merging with a dead pet should punish a soulbeast somehow.  Maybe increase the cooldown for leaving/entering beastmode by 5-10 seconds if a soulbeast merges to revive. That way attacking the pet actually becomes counterplay for the damaging pets instead of just causing a periodic reset. 

 

Also lick wounds should go on cooldown if the pet is interrupted why is ranger combat viable while downed

 

I'm not into nerfing the pet damage atm, especially with druid nuking the pet damage. I still think soulbeast is a -bit- too free pet wise.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kuma.1503]

I considered going on a spiel about how pets aren't that big a deal, but well. 

 

It's a drake. 

 

We are now complaining about drakes. In PvP. 

 

I mean... if we were talking about bristleback or tiger. Okay, maybe there might be a conversation there?

 

But it's a drake. 

 

The pet Charr start with at level one, name "Charmander" because they're unique and quirky. Jump into PvP because aint nobody got time for leveling in this game, forget to swap their pets, facepalm because Charmander weighs 300lbs and can't even hit a necro with 15 stacks of cripple, and then lock away in a PC box never to be touched again. 

 

Leave charmander alone. Just because he finally managed to land a hit for the first time in the history of guild wars 2... Yall gotta gang up and attack him. Smh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

41 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

It's a drake. 

they don't want these muthatruckin drakes on this muthatruckin plane

[Shagie.7612]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Of the meta, smokescale knockdown needs slightly more windup for its telegraph.

If you do this, you've gotta allow it to actually move during the wind up, or it's never gonna hit anything again.

Which falls into a larger topic of pet AI, which is absolutely a problem and in desperate need of changing and I doubt EoD is bringing it even though it badly needs to.

Nobody likes getting hit with a million IQ knockdown from an AI for good reason, but the other times it happens it's completely inconsequential (or whiffs, or whatever). Same applies to big damage hits like tail swipe.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also merging with a dead pet should punish a soulbeast somehow.  Maybe increase the cooldown for leaving/entering beastmode by 5-10 seconds if a soulbeast merges to revive. That way attacking the pet actually becomes counterplay for the damaging pets instead of just causing a periodic reset. 

I don't disagree here either, but I think if pets are meant to be a useful mechanic, and one you can punish in some way, the ranger also needs better tools to control it and keep it alive, especially as this game's powercreeped random damage and aoe spam out the wazoo over the years.

 

I've said this before here and in the ranger subforum, but pets work much better in a game like GW1 (or even WoW) where the player controls their ability usage and otherwise they're just a killable dot. That's not perfect either, but it's a much more enjoyable and balanceable design. For both the ranger and the player fighting against it.

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Shagie.7612

[Crab Fear.1624]

So, the defense is big animation needs big damage, its ok.

 

So, time to give Warrior all cc hammer damage back, and why not bc too. and why not....juggernaut....lots of big animation, it needs big damage.

[Shao.7236]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

If you do this, you've gotta allow it to actually move during the wind up, or it's never gonna hit anything again.

Which falls into a larger topic of pet AI, which is absolutely a problem and in desperate need of changing and I doubt EoD is bringing it even though it badly needs to.

Nobody likes getting hit with a million IQ knockdown from an AI for good reason, but the other times it happens it's completely inconsequential (or whiffs, or whatever). Same applies to big damage hits like tail swipe.

I don't disagree here either, but I think if pets are meant to be a useful mechanic, and one you can punish in some way, the ranger also needs better tools to control it and keep it alive, especially as this game's powercreeped random damage and aoe spam out the wazoo over the years.

 

I've said this before here and in the ranger subforum, but pets work much better in a game like GW1 (or even WoW) where the player controls their ability usage and otherwise they're just a killable dot. That's not perfect either, but it's a much more enjoyable and balanceable design. For both the ranger and the player fighting against it.

 

I've been discussing with my Druid main friend and my idea was that Ranger should be able via AoE placement to position the pet like Ventari Tablet works on Revenant instead of just pet swapping because that feels like a lazy cope out for not having entire control, so that the pet is actually useful. Even better, find a way to implement all skills to work with rather than just one and the rest randomly.

 

F1 is attack/track and when attacking, it flips to return. 2 buttons in one. F2 is the target manual control to which flips F1 to return if there is no target in the AoE to focus, however the pet should stick to that position until out of range therefor automatically go back to the ranger if not already ordered to come back. F3 is the pet typical skill. F4 is next other skill which is normally automated. F5 is the utility of the pet which is also normally automated, now controlled by the Core Ranger as well, be the trade off for going with elite specs.

 

Of course 1 opinion isn't enough and more would be necessary but I do believe that just one pet is enough over two, hell if they have to make the pet be aggressively teleporting/running away a times wouldn't be a bad thing either, as long as it's not straight up pet swap like where all damage is just wasted. In the end making things way more under control and possible to manage for the Ranger itself, less AI intensive.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Axl.8924]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

This is the main thing.

 

Pets other than smokescale/birds/rock gazelle/iboga/jacaranda meta need some functionality added. There should be a larger pool of viable pets.

 

Of the meta, smokescale knockdown needs slightly more windup for its telegraph. The sound indication and visual indication happen -as- the knockdown is happening. they should happen before. 

 

Also merging with a dead pet should punish a soulbeast somehow.  Maybe increase the cooldown for leaving/entering beastmode by 5-10 seconds if a soulbeast merges to revive. That way attacking the pet actually becomes counterplay for the damaging pets instead of just causing a periodic reset. 

 

Also lick wounds should go on cooldown if the pet is interrupted why is ranger combat viable while downed

 

I'm not into nerfing the pet damage atm, especially with druid nuking the pet damage. I still think soulbeast is a -bit- too free pet wise.

Exactly overhaul some of the weaker ones nerf bristleback if necessary and some of the really overpowered ones, but i fear they might not do that because then people might not want the newest expansion. With a new expansion, means new pets for ranger, and who knows what it wil be.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

nerf bristleback if necessary and some of the really overpowered ones

 

Bristleback / pet damage is fine at the moment. There just needs to be more reason to choose other things. The current lineup isnt busted except -marginally- smokescale because its knockdown is overtuned. 

 

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

If you do this, you've gotta allow it to actually move during the wind up, or it's never gonna hit anything again.

 

I find this reasonable, and prefer it to the randomness of its knockdown at the moment, though I don't think it's exactly warranted or necessary. People are still going to use it for the stealth leap alone, the fact that it has a surprise knockdown is just icing on the cake. Rangers don't control that, they just benefit from it happening. I think an RNG knockdown is already plenty strong enough when it manages to land, and moving the telegraph to make it more dodge-able to a player that can act (isnt under soft or hard cc, of which ranger has access to plenty) isn't really why people take smokescale to begin with.

 

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Nobody likes getting hit with a million IQ knockdown from an AI 

 

See, but it's not million IQ. It's RNG. The ranger has no control over whether that attack lands or is executed. It doesnt require forethought or planning. That's beside the point though. 

 

8 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I think if pets are meant to be a useful mechanic, and one you can punish in some way, the ranger also needs better tools to control it and keep it alive

 

This is reasonable. Keep in mind the complexity layers that would introduce to ranger though. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Axl.8924]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Bristleback / pet damage is fine at the moment. There just needs to be more reason to choose other things. The current lineup isnt busted except -marginally- smokescale because its knockdown is overtuned. 

 

 

I find this reasonable, and prefer it to the randomness of its knockdown at the moment, though I don't think it's exactly warranted or necessary. People are still going to use it for the stealth leap alone, the fact that it has a surprise knockdown is just icing on the cake. Rangers don't control that, they just benefit from it happening. I think an RNG knockdown is already plenty strong enough when it manages to land, and moving the telegraph to make it more dodge-able to a player that can act (isnt under soft or hard cc, of which ranger has access to plenty) isn't really why people take smokescale to begin with.

 

 

See, but it's not million IQ. It's RNG. The ranger has no control over whether that attack lands or is executed. It doesnt require forethought or planning. That's beside the point though. 

 

 

This is reasonable. Keep in mind the complexity layers that would introduce to ranger though. 

 

 

Well the thing is> Stealth from smokescale is one of the useful things too.

 

If we could get some usefulness benefiting druids bringing a pet with something, then we could encourage different pet loadout.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Bristleback / pet damage is fine at the moment. There just needs to be more reason to choose other things. The current lineup isnt busted except -marginally- smokescale because its knockdown is overtuned. 

 

 

I find this reasonable, and prefer it to the randomness of its knockdown at the moment, though I don't think it's exactly warranted or necessary. People are still going to use it for the stealth leap alone, the fact that it has a surprise knockdown is just icing on the cake. Rangers don't control that, they just benefit from it happening. I think an RNG knockdown is already plenty strong enough when it manages to land, and moving the telegraph to make it more dodge-able to a player that can act (isnt under soft or hard cc, of which ranger has access to plenty) isn't really why people take smokescale to begin with.

 

 

See, but it's not million IQ. It's RNG. The ranger has no control over whether that attack lands or is executed. It doesnt require forethought or planning. That's beside the point though. 

 

 

This is reasonable. Keep in mind the complexity layers that would introduce to ranger though. 

 

 

 

The smokescale's knockdown almost always comes directly after it leaves smoke assault animation. Just dodge roll after smoke assault ends and you dodge the knockdown.

 

The only time this pattern gets staggered, is if they camp smokescale for way too long and its CDs starting getting all wonky and out of order. If they are actually pet swapping every 15s like all good rangers do, the knockdown will always come after the smoke assault, directly after, as in the next strike directly after smoke assault ends.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Leonidrex.5649]

Just now, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

The smokescale's knockdown almost always comes directly after it leaves smoke assault animation. Just dodge roll after smoke assault ends and you dodge the knockdown.

and even if you dont, you are still out of range for knockdown 😜

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

See, but it's not million IQ. It's RNG. The ranger has no control over whether that attack lands or is executed. It doesnt require forethought or planning.

Sorry, would it have been more obvious if I called it a highly skilled RNG knockdown?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Sorry, would it have been more obvious if I called it a highly skilled RNG knockdown?

 

Smokescale knockdown is by far the most telegraphed pet CC for the reason I just explained in my previous post. There is nothing RNG about it.

 

Futhermore, due to how predictable it is, Rangers do wield a great deal of control over when they swap to Smokescale knowing that he will immediately pop smoke assault to chase something and then go into the knockdown directly after. This is largely how non-immob power based rangers/soulbeasts are able to secure kills when players are trying to run.

 

Absolutely nothing RNG about it at all.

[Leonidrex.5649]

5 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Sorry, would it have been more obvious if I called it a highly skilled RNG knockdown?

As a soulbeast I have almost absolute control over when smokescale is going to knock someone down.
unmerge -> smokescale does smoke assault -> smoke scale goes for knockdown.
They even have the same cooldown to stimulate the exact combo.
The only time it will come out of sync is when the pet is out for 20s+ and you CC it or ranger uses its F2 after smokeassault.
Calling smoke KD rng is pepega.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Smokescale KD isn't even the best CC ranger has access to; it's just used because every SB runs the same tired Smokescale based Sic Em' build, so the community gets run over by it and complains.  

 

This is why pets are fine, as you have something like Rock Gazelle which has far more CC potential (and damage potential), but no one runs it because it doesn't have a smoke field and takes too long to come back after it does charge.  It also got heavily nerfed when people did use it so that it now does a fraction of the damage.

 

I do love all the cries for merge bringing pet back to be nerfed--with no recompensation for core / druid that have to have pets out and that are downed all the time because they have no defense.  

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Smokescale KD isn't even the best CC ranger has access to; it's just used because every SB runs the same tired Smokescale based Sic Em' build, so the community gets run over by it and complains.  

 

This is why pets are fine, as you have something like Rock Gazelle which has far more CC potential (and damage potential), but no one runs it because it doesn't have a smoke field and takes too long to come back after it does charge.  It also got heavily nerfed when people did use it so that it now does a fraction of the damage.

 

I do love all the cries for merge bringing pet back to be nerfed--with no recompensation for core / druid that have to have pets out and that are downed all the time because they have no defense.  

nobody runs gazelle because it just runs off into uganda and takes forever to come back

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

The smokescale's knockdown almost always comes directly after it leaves smoke assault animation. Just dodge roll after smoke assault ends and you dodge the knockdown.

 

The only time this pattern gets staggered, is if they camp smokescale for way too long and its CDs starting getting all wonky and out of order. If they are actually pet swapping every 15s like all good rangers do, the knockdown will always come after the smoke assault, directly after, as in the next strike directly after smoke assault ends.

 

 

4 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

As a soulbeast I have almost absolute control over when smokescale is going to knock someone down.
unmerge -> smokescale does smoke assault -> smoke scale goes for knockdown.
They even have the same cooldown to stimulate the exact combo.
The only time it will come out of sync is when the pet is out for 20s+ and you CC it or ranger uses its F2 after smokeassault.
Calling smoke KD rng is pepega.

 

Its not RNG unless its RNG?

 

Smokescale has 3 moves, two of which have an internal cooldown. While you can anticipate it, whether the smokescale decides to use it or not is entirely up to chance within that pool/whether or not the move is on cooldown. How is that not random?  It could just bite again. 

 

I'm not arguing its broken or anything, mind you. Just that the telegraph indication/sound indication already on the knockdown skill needs to be moved to the beginning of the skill so it does its job. 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261
Addressing posts properly, sec

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Its not RNG unless its RNG?

 

Smokescale has 3 moves, two of which have an internal cooldown. While you can anticipate it, whether the smokescale decides to use it or not is entirely up to chance within that pool/whether or not the move is on cooldown. How is that not random?  It could just bite again. 

 

It's not RNG at all dude.

 

I could literally live stream myself using the smokescale right now for you, and I will if you want me to, and I will call out exactly when the smokescale is going to smoke assault and knockdown, and I guarantee you I will be right 99% of the time.

 

It does the same skill rotation in the same order every time you swap to him. As Leonidrex and myself have already pointed out, the only time this pattern gets staggered, is if a ranger is camping smokescale for waaaay too long and something unusual happens like the CC knockdown gets interrupted during its use and goes on a staggered CD to mess up his skill chain.

 

In other words, what I'm saying is that the routine in which pets utilize their skills is not RNG at all. They definitely do the same things in the same order over and over, unless CDs get messed up.

 

The smokescale doesn't have this problem with his smoke assault/knockdown combo because they are both on a 20s CD. So unless something strange happens to stagger its CDs, he will continue to do that smoke assault into KD combo over and over every 20s.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

It's not RNG at all dude.

 

I guarantee you I will be right 99% of the time.

 

*Squints*

 

At this point I'm memeing, but I still want the telegraph adjusted. See above, edited post but was responded to before I could repost. 

 

I did not know this about the smokescale cd rotation, so I appreciate the pointer. I do still want to point out the above though, meme or not. Knockdowns/hard CC should give you an indicator right before they cc you, however you want to put it. The fact that it could be unexpected due to the whim of AI is just additional reason to adhere to that. 

 

I'm not claiming that anything should be adjusted except the telegraph for the knockdown on the visual and auditory side. Those indicators already exist, they just need to better denote when the knockdown is going to happen, instead of playing -as- the knockdown happens. Whether or not the knockdown is almost always predictable doesn't really justify it being the way it is now, especially when both of you know the pet has situations(even if they are slim) where it can do what it wants. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Sorry, would it have been more obvious if I called it a highly skilled RNG knockdown?

 

Idunno how to respond to this or what point this is making. If it's specifically against "smokescale visual/audio windup should be moved to the beginning of its knockdown so you can dodge it", then let's fight, otherwise ???

Edited June 15, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Leonidrex.5649]

48 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

 

Its not RNG unless its RNG?

 

Smokescale has 3 moves, two of which have an internal cooldown. While you can anticipate it, whether the smokescale decides to use it or not is entirely up to chance within that pool/whether or not the move is on cooldown. How is that not random?  It could just bite again. 

 

I'm not arguing its broken or anything, mind you. Just that the telegraph indication/sound indication already on the knockdown skill needs to be moved to the beginning of the skill so it does its job. 

 

1 smoke scale always does the same kitten, smoke assault followed by knockdown ( its not RNG as its ALWAYS the same thing )
2 you have so much tell, smoke assault is 1, bitedown itself has both sound queue and a tell.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

 bitedown itself has both sound queue and a tell.

 

This is my only hangup. that sound cue and tell need to show up slightly earlier. Dassit. Smoke assault is fine. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

*Squints*

 

At this point I'm memeing, but I still want the telegraph adjusted. See above, edited post but was responded to before I could repost. 

 

I did not know this about the smokescale cd rotation, so I appreciate the pointer. I do still want to point out the above though, meme or not. Knockdowns/hard CC should give you an indicator right before they cc you, however you want to put it. The fact that it could be unexpected due to the whim of AI is just additional reason to adhere to that. 

 

I'm not claiming that anything should be adjusted except the telegraph for the knockdown on the visual and auditory side. Those indicators already exist, they just need to better denote when the knockdown is going to happen, instead of playing -as- the knockdown happens. Whether or not the knockdown is almost always predictable doesn't really justify it being the way it is now, especially when both of you know the pet has situations(even if they are slim) where it can do what it wants. 

 

 

 

Idunno how to respond to this or what point this is making. If it's specifically against "smokescale visual/audio windup should be moved to the beginning of its knockdown so you can dodge it", then let's fight, otherwise ???

 

Pet CC has always been controllable.  Many moons ago we ran double wolf because on swap the wolf would always go for a KD, making it very effective.  As mentioned, smokescale is no different except it teleports to target prior to trying its KD.

 

I guess the point everyone is making here is this is a L2P issue--not everything needs a giant neon sign before it happens. 

 

I'm not even sure why on ranger it would matter as there is little burst potential outside of maul--and maul already has GS #5 to proceed it.  If it's other players that you are worried about then the ranger has many other ways to immobilize or CC outside of this specific instance, most with little tell.  

 

I guess this topic did start by someone getting owned by a literal drake, so a lot of these words are going to fall on deaf ears anyway.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I guess the point everyone is making here is this is a L2P issue--not everything needs a giant neon sign before it happens. 

 

While I agree not everything needs a neon sign, I think a 2 second knockdown is part of that neon sign group and that if there -is- a big neon sign on a skill, it needs to be set properly.  Smokescale already has the indicator, it's just bugged/not properly set. We've already established there are situations where the knockdown doesn't follow a set pattern, so it should be reasonable to expect the skill itself to properly indicate the knockdown, since it attempts to do so already by design. 

 

(not to mention the knockdown should also only be 1 second according to the tooltip, but that's apparently another can of worms entirely)

 

Quote

Pet CC has always been controllable.  Many moons ago we ran double wolf because on swap the wolf would always go for a KD, making it very effective.  As mentioned, smokescale is no different except it teleports to target prior to trying its KD.

 

Good to know, but this doesn't change my opinion on the KD itself.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261