My idea for nerfing scourge in barriers and making it in line:

[Dark Dvid.2906]

Just wondering what the real reason that someone who obviously doesn't play a necro class wants to nuke it? We have other op classes there like ele or mes, scrounge is very  easy to counter in fights and as far as performance in PvE what does it matter?

[Axl.8924]

On 6/22/2021 at 9:49 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

I think you don't get my point at all. So I'll try to rephrase it.

 

The benchmark show the ceiling that each profession have under the same realistic buff. The scourge have a low ceiling but can provide group survivability alongside this low ceiling. Profession at 40k have a high ceiling but can't provide group survivability at this ceiling, which doesn't mean that they can't provide group survivability if they lower their dps to scourge level.

 

And no, in my opinion, doing 39-40k have nothing to do with being ok or not. It's simply that you cannot do those 39-40k alone. In the end it is a group effort. If you only take scourge within your squad, you'll do below 36k dps even if you're rotation is perfect because you'll neither have alacrity nor quickness. You won't have warrior banner either. You won't have kallah's skills that allow to add bleed stack on hit nor the skill that allow to siphon health. You won't have FB's proc that allow you to apply a burn stack. You won't have the ranger's sun spirit that add a burn stack on hit either... etc. When 40k is said, all of this is taken into account.

 

What I'm trying to say is that people point out scourge 40k without taking into account that under the same condition, these 40k stay 4k (or 10%) below the top dps, hat those 40k are achievable by all professions, that it is the current average. The argument that other profession have a "harder" time reaching their own ceiling under the stess of a "real fight" isn't really realist since scourge is under the same stress, with it's own rotation shenanigan (Obnoxious traits invisible ICDs). In anyway, you'll have a heal to support you throught your rotation, maybe even someone giving you barrier since it's a group content and the fault numbers are directly dependant of being within a group.

 

You'd like the average dps to go down to 30k, sure but scourge isn't even beginning to be one of the reason the average dps is above 30k. Scourge provide nothing increasing dps except a bit of might.

 

NB.: I said that number mean nothing because number are thrown without a field of comparisons. The claim is basically "scourge do close to 40k, it's outrageous". When reality is that: "Scourge do close to 40k, so does almost every professions in the game". The claim without context lead to the bold and dumb: "Nerf scourge damage". The claim within context lead to: "Is 40k an average dps acceptable? If not should it be lowered and how? If it is, should scourge group survivability be nerfed in order to increase it's dps/risk ratio?"

 

My point is, there should be a cap placed by ANET themselves on how high dps should go based on raid boss hp and such carefully.

 

I've heard raids are becoming too easy. True i've not raided in a while, but i do think getting to a  certain point does create issues in which those left behind demand to be equal and dps could become so bloated you end up with problems in the end.

[Dadnir.5038]

29 minutes ago, Dark Dvid.2906 said:

Just wondering what the real reason that someone who obviously doesn't play a necro class wants to nuke it? We have other op classes there like ele or mes, scrounge is very  easy to counter in fights and as far as performance in PvE what does it matter?

 

You're not giving yourself much credibility here... Or maybe you're trying your hand at irony.

As far as PvP goes, the necromancer's survivability is an issue (For a long time this survivability was to low yet after Feb 2020 patch the necromancer's survivability have become way to high).

As far as PvE goes, it's more a matter of other professions being unwilling to give up a part of their maximum dps in order to meet the same standards than scourge have. Yet they drool after those standards.

 

Elementalist's main issue isn't that he doesn't have support, it's just that it's support isn't competitive. The boons they provide are widespread so they aren't in high demand. The aura effects are plainly bad outside PvP. As for sharing conjured weapons, the length of the encounter having increased (a lot), the opinion on these tools have turned to a more individualist point of view (to the point that t's no longer socially accepted that another player take your conjured weapon). Healing wise the elementalist isn't half bad but with it's dps sacrificed to heal and the lack of competitivity of it's support, it isn't particularly looked for.

 

As for the mesmer, it's rampages in sPvP got the best nerfed out of him. While PvE abuses saw him nerfed where it hurt to make room for "competition".

 

The game is made in such a way that some professions stack well with themselve which lead to people complaining as soon as a meta with stacked professions appear. (It's been true for necromancer, mesmer and guardian, it even happened to ranger)

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

My point is, there should be a cap placed by ANET themselves on how high dps should go based on raid boss hp and such carefully.

 

I've heard raids are becoming too easy. True i've not raided in a while, but i do think getting to a  certain point does create issues in which those left behind demand to be equal and dps could become so bloated you end up with problems in the end.

 

Raids suffer from the same curse than dungeons suffered: People are simply used to their mechanisms. You can see it by the fact that people that don't know a dungeon path can easily spend 1-2 hour inside while a veteran group will go throught the path in 5-10 min with ease.

 

You can have all the dps and survivability you want, if you don't know the encounters mechanisms it will be hard.

[Anchoku.8142]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Raids suffer from the same curse than dungeons suffered: People are simply used to their mechanisms. You can see it by the fact that people that don't know a dungeon path can easily spend 1-2 hour inside while a veteran group will go throught the path in 5-10 min with ease.

 

You can have all the dps and survivability you want, if you don't know the encounters mechanisms it will be hard.

^

This is the problem with PvE in GW2. The AI is not good enough so encounters are scripted and include puzzles (mechanics) that, once memorized, decrease the challenge a lot.

 

Since maybe a year after launch, my wish is for Arenanet to work on AI to be more like a real player's and for the aggro formula to be changed to give more weight to dps, support and overall sustain rather than overweight Toughness.

 

Ironically, by valuing Toughness so highly, not only does it make pets/minions more supportive, it also enables a "tank" role in a game that was supposed to be anti-triad.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

My point is, there should be a cap placed by ANET themselves on how high dps should go based on raid boss hp and such carefully.

 

I've heard raids are becoming too easy. True i've not raided in a while, but i do think getting to a  certain point does create issues in which those left behind demand to be equal and dps could become so bloated you end up with problems in the end.

Really? Why is that necessary?

 

1. capping DPS only affects the most capable players who can achieve that level of DPS. I'm going to say that the vast majority will never be able to achieve these levels of DPS

2. I don't think that for most cases, raid 'easiness' is related to DPS. 'easiness' is more about the fact that raids are scripted content. 

 

So basically, your belief there should be a cap on DPS is low volume and low impact for affecting 'easiness'. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

This is the problem with PvE in GW2. The AI is not good enough so encounters are scripted and include puzzles (mechanics) that, once memorized, decrease the challenge a lot.

It is an issue for every game, not just GW2.

 

3 hours ago, Anchoku.8142 said:

Ironically, by valuing Toughness so highly, not only does it make pets/minions more supportive, it also enables a "tank" role in a game that was supposed to be anti-triad.

The game wasn't supposed to be "anti-triad", it was supposed to enable each and every professions to fill all the spots of the "triad". The true goal was to avoid having players looking for a specific profession when forming group (Unfortunately, this is a goal that they didn't managed to reach).

[Axl.8924]

46 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It is an issue for every game, not just GW2.

 

The game wasn't supposed to be "anti-triad", it was supposed to enable each and every professions to fill all the spots of the "triad". The true goal was to avoid having players looking for a specific profession when forming group (Unfortunately, this is a goal that they didn't managed to reach).

Its because some classes fill those shoes so well, that its hard to justify.

 

The amount of quickness and alacricity from mes and other from firebrand meant its a hard choice to fill those shoes.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

41 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

Its because some classes fill those shoes so well, that its hard to justify.

 

The amount of quickness and alacricity from mes and other from firebrand meant its a hard choice to fill those shoes.

 

The boon system is leaving ANet without satisfying direction to make a move on, they are basically forced to move along the "bad way". The combo system was a huge fail (on the paper it was super nice, but quickly characters that left undesirable fields ended up being pushed away) which forced them to spread boons on all professions and now that it's done there is nowhere to run, they can just grit their teeth and march forward.

 

If ANet continue to spread boons and all professions end up having quickness and alac do you think players will be happy? Nope! They will point out barrier, banners, spirits and other unique buffs provided by the different professions. One or two professions will inevitably stand out, monopolize the different metafields and being called OP.

 

At this point, if ANet rarefy some boons like alac and quickness, people will simply stack more of the same professions. If ANet spread the boons so that it's easy to provide them, the most effective source will become meta and people will stack this professions. It's a vicious circle with no satisfying end possible. All ANet can do is shake the meta once in a while by pushing a new profession in the spotlight (which mean: Powercreep).

 

 

[Axl.8924]

8 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

The boon system is leaving ANet without satisfying direction to make a move on, they are basically forced to move along the "bad way". The combo system was a huge fail (on the paper it was super nice, but quickly characters that left undesirable fields ended up being pushed away) which forced them to spread boons on all professions and now that it's done there is nowhere to run, they can just grit their teeth and march forward.

 

If ANet continue to spread boons and all professions end up having quickness and alac do you think players will be happy? Nope! They will point out barrier, banners, spirits and other unique buffs provided by the different professions. One or two professions will inevitably stand out, monopolize the different metafields and being called OP.

 

At this point, if ANet rarefy some boons like alac and quickness, people will simply stack more of the same professions. If ANet spread the boons so that it's easy to provide them, the most effective source will become meta and people will stack this professions. It's a vicious circle with no satisfying end possible. All ANet can do is shake the meta once in a while by pushing a new profession in the spotlight (which mean: Powercreep).

 

 

 

I don't honestly have a answer either. I've seen in the past eles complain about the usefulness of auras for support and they had a point, since auras are what are super unique to eles, just as aegis is to guardians.

 

I would love if it worked but i don't have enough inside knowledge of mechanics even of nec who i played maybe most  second to ele.

 

I thought at first it looked like classes can be saved, but considering how folks are crying for barriers and dmg to be nerfed on scourge, which could leave it dead in pve, and other classes have a host of problems, i'm just not sure.

 

In other MMOS they have a couple choices for healing, and even that causes major issues, like in WOW priest pala druid shaman

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

 

I don't honestly have a answer either. I've seen in the past eles complain about the usefulness of auras for support and they had a point, since auras are what are super unique to eles, just as aegis is to guardians.

 

I would love if it worked but i don't have enough inside knowledge of mechanics even of nec who i played maybe most  second to ele.

 

I thought at first it looked like classes can be saved, but considering how folks are crying for barriers and dmg to be nerfed on scourge, which could leave it dead in pve, and other classes have a host of problems, i'm just not sure.

 

In other MMOS they have a couple choices for healing, and even that causes major issues, like in WOW priest pala druid shaman

Actually, the answer lies in the fact that Anet has made its bed and they have to sleep in it. There isn't any going back from the direction this game is going in ... so if that means we have a Scourge build that gives barriers and also has DPS that make some 'balance-conscience' people uneasy ... then those people have a significant choice to make about how they spend their time in this game. At this point, I think suggestions need to acknowledge this direction because if it's what Anet wants the game to be, it doesn't make much sense to complain about it, even if it leads to 'bad things' 

[Methuselah.4376]

I guess I am the only crazy one that is actually really happy with the state of Scourge atm. It's benching decent dps, though still in the lower half of the benchmark list, and brings a lot of utility. It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps and utility. For me, as it is in PvE atm, it's perfectly balanced. But I realize I might be in the very slight minority on this. 🤐

[Dadnir.5038]

9 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

I guess I am the only crazy one that is actually really happy with the state of Scourge atm. It's benching decent dps, though still in the lower half of the benchmark list, and brings a lot of utility. It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps and utility. For me, as it is in PvE atm, it's perfectly balanced. But I realize I might be in the very slight minority on this. 🤐

To give you some context, a popular youtuber/streamer made his own "totally unbiased, trust me" raid ranking for professions and put scourge on top, giving him it's own category above what he call god rank.

 

That said, you're right, scourge by himself is balanced in PvE. Thought, If you stack scourges and give it proper support it's strong and resilient. It is the "resilient" part that fuel the "complaints" yet, funnily, it is the dps and the "ease to play" that's blamed.

 

Reality is that objectively barrier is poorly designed. This poor design have had serious effects in WvW since PoF launch and have been making players restless in PvP since April 2021. Now, players seem to discover that having a bit of resilience to damage can make the difference in PvE as well and it seem to trouble them.

 

 

[Axl.8924]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

To give you some context, a popular youtuber/streamer made his own "totally unbiased, trust me" raid ranking for professions and put scourge on top, giving him it's own category above what he call god rank.

 

That said, you're right, scourge by himself is balanced in PvE. Thought, If you stack scourges and give it proper support it's strong and resilient. It is the "resilient" part that fuel the "complaints" yet, funnily, it is the dps and the "ease to play" that's blamed.

 

Reality is that objectively barrier is poorly designed. This poor design have had serious effects in WvW since PoF launch and have been making players restless in PvP since April 2021. Now, players seem to discover that having a bit of resilience to damage can make the difference in PvE as well and it seem to trouble them.

 

 

What worries me, is that Anet will decide to take away viability with barriers and dps and leave scourge where it is unchanged, along with minionmancers.

 

Its all too tempting to just destroy a class based on the amount of Q_Q.

[LucianDK.8615]

People tend to get upset if something considered easy kills suddenly changes their station.

[Aamu.3952]

At least in PVP, all scourge really needs is a cast time and animation on F5, and an ICD on Feed from Corruption.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Aamu.3952

[Dadnir.5038]

36 minutes ago, Axl.8924 said:

What worries me, is that Anet will decide to take away viability with barriers and dps and leave scourge where it is unchanged, along with minionmancers.

 

Its all too tempting to just destroy a class based on the amount of Q_Q.

Hey! You're the one that opened the thread... You're the one calling for nerf. Why would it worry you now?

Number wise, Scourge's dps potential is average (far from the top) and scourge's shared sustain is average as well (Good for an inate sustain support, but not something that a staff tempest in water attunment or a staff renegade can't offer or even druid if it even matter).

 

Increasing scourge's reliance on healing power for the potency of it's shared barrier (reducing base barrier while increasing healing power coefficient) would probably be the right move to do to curve down the "issue". But I doubt it will happen.

[Xeon.5768]

On 6/17/2021 at 3:30 AM, Axl.8924 said:

Move the blood bank trait into the  scourge area, and  force scourge to choose between 

 

Nerf the damage on the scourge weapon severely into the ground and put all that damage into 1 trait opposite line of the blood bank.

What this does:

It forces necros to choose between  condition damage on scourge, and barrier for support for all modes.

 

Exerp: If needed more changes, nerf barrier and or damage to be in line with SPVP/WVW/PVE/raids/fractals.

 

This prob won't work on reaper, since reapers get sustain from reaper shroud, unless they nerf reaper shroud's defense by 33% and put it into a trait for making nec less glassy in the reaper trait to make them choose between sustain and damage.

 

This i think would make us more easy to keep in line with other classes.

 

The suggestion is good in general.

 

This class indeed creates much of the issue in pvp. In short, statistically, a PUG group having a scourge will have much higher chance to win a group without scourge. This applies to most PUGs, not static groups who may run meta comp and be very experienced.

 

In addition, playing scourge below plat 2 does not require much skill, including how to rotate the skills, or when to time the burst, or when to interrupt the enemies by watching animations. What most of scourge players do is simply stand still at the nodes and apply massive barrier and conditions at the same time, and try to sustain as much time as possible to death.

 

So the question is, what is the point of allowing a class like a immortal god, that literally does not encourage people to try and discover new builds, as well as improve their skills? If playing a braindead class is OP, many players would enjoy this scourge easy win. How is it fair to other players who may spend more efforts on other harder classes such as thief who is so squashy and requires perfect timing to burst and rotate, or otherwise going festa within a sec.

 

Again, I am talking about pug matchmaking in this case, which is the vast majority of the people's choice. Any static group who are above platinum 2, and experienced with appropriate comp, and have high skillset is not within the scope of my discussion.

 

In addition to the suggestions provided, you may consider making barrier more tied to the healing power attribute of the scourge, and also reducing the barrier coefficient that scourge can grant to allies.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Axl.8924]

6 hours ago, Xeon.5768 said:

The suggestion is good in general.

 

This class indeed creates much of the issue in pvp. In short, statistically, a PUG group having a scourge will have much higher chance to win a group without scourge. This applies to most PUGs, not static groups who may run meta comp and be very experienced.

 

In addition, playing scourge below plat 2 does not require much skill, including how to rotate the skills, or when to time the burst, or when to interrupt the enemies by watching animations. What most of scourge players do is simply stand still at the nodes and apply massive barrier and conditions at the same time, and try to sustain as much time as possible to death.

 

So the question is, what is the point of allowing a class like a immortal god, that literally does not encourage people to try and discover new builds, as well as improve their skills? If playing a braindead class is OP, many players would enjoy this scourge easy win. How is it fair to other players who may spend more efforts on other harder classes such as thief who is so squashy and requires perfect timing to burst and rotate, or otherwise going festa within a sec.

 

Again, I am talking about pug matchmaking in this case, which is the vast majority of the people's choice. Any static group who are above platinum 2, and experienced with appropriate comp, and have high skillset is not within the scope of my discussion.

 

In addition to the suggestions provided, you may consider making barrier more tied to the healing power attribute of the scourge, and also reducing the barrier coefficient that scourge can grant to allies.

My idea was to not destroy barriers completely, killing scourge in all modes and not destroying DPS.

 

Some suggestions people have, the repercussions are enormous. If you nerf based on Q_Q nec would no longer be viable and would turn into a training dummy, as would other classes.

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

My idea was to not destroy barriers completely, killing scourge in all modes and not destroying DPS.

 

Some suggestions people have, the repercussions are enormous. If you nerf based on Q_Q nec would no longer be viable and would turn into a training dummy, as would other classes.

Similar to what you suggested, I already proposed this in one of my very early discussion about removing the barriers. Unfortunately I got a lot of dislikes so I think it might be a good starting point to reduce its effects, rather than completely remove it. Once done, this limited amount of barrier can still allow new players who enjoy braindead play (rather than piano play) to kick start any hardcore modes which require a lot of thinking.

 

Personally I dislike effect of barrier because it negatively impacts the motivations of practice. We all know barrier is not only broken in pvp competitive, but also in raids and fractals bosses, to skip much mechs. So I suggest to reduce its coefficient as a starting point, because removing it completely might lead to new players crying and complaining about mechs being too hard.

[Infusion.7149]

On 6/25/2021 at 5:41 PM, Methuselah.4376 said:

I guess I am the only crazy one that is actually really happy with the state of Scourge atm. It's benching decent dps, though still in the lower half of the benchmark list, and brings a lot of utility. It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps and utility. For me, as it is in PvE atm, it's perfectly balanced. But I realize I might be in the very slight minority on this. 🤐

Sure if you consider > 37K merely decent...

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puvu4AbfVQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NbhBMCyjmw

source: https://lucky-noobs.com/builds/condition-scourge

This is after may 25 nerf by the way.

Really the barrier applied should be scaling with healing power more but that's not the overarching issue. You have a fully ranged build doing on par with melee builds that also need to have weapon swap. Where's the risk / reward?

Before the torment change I would have said scourge should have had a bit more damage , maybe 32-33K if it's full DPS given that is what single shortbow soulbeast is at. 37K+ is excessive.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Obtena.7952]

14 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

What worries me, is that Anet will decide to take away viability with barriers and dps and leave scourge where it is unchanged, along with minionmancers.

 

Its all too tempting to just destroy a class based on the amount of Q_Q.

Wait WHAT? ... aren't you the one that started this thread?

 

So you are worried Anet will take away Scourge viability from barriers and DPS ... but you start a thread requesting EXACTLY that? Do you even know what you are about there guy?

Edited June 27, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/25/2021 at 5:41 PM, Methuselah.4376 said:

I guess I am the only crazy one that is actually really happy with the state of Scourge atm. It's benching decent dps, though still in the lower half of the benchmark list, and brings a lot of utility. It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps and utility. For me, as it is in PvE atm, it's perfectly balanced. But I realize I might be in the very slight minority on this. 🤐

I'm with you on this one. It's pretty much why I think we saw one minor change on May 11th; overall, it's a solid position for the class right now. Scourge has meaningful choices for players and covers a wide range of roles without straying too far into the extremes of any of those roles. Reaper is the 'DPS' option that people want. Aside from some minor issues with core traits, I wouldn't do anything with this class.

 

17 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

To give you some context, a popular youtuber/streamer made his own "totally unbiased, trust me" raid ranking for professions and put scourge on top, giving him it's own category above what he call god rank.

 I also saw that video. I think the interesting thing there was that it seemed the criteria applied to Scourge in that video is not consistent with all the other classes; I doubt any other class was assessed on the ranking based on how well they can carry. I also think there is irony there because while Scourge is 'god rank' because of it's ability to carry teams, it's hardly a reason any capable team wants it as a member. Also, this hasn't JUST been a Scourge thing either; necro has always been strong at doing the 'carry' thing in teams. It reminds me of saying "It's not the love they want ... but it's the love they need" Yup, carry Scourge is exactly that. It's probably the BEST build you can bring to a struggling team. 

[Xeon.5768]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:41 PM, Methuselah.4376 said:

I guess I am the only crazy one that is actually really happy with the state of Scourge atm. It's benching decent dps, though still in the lower half of the benchmark list, and brings a lot of utility. It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps and utility. For me, as it is in PvE atm, it's perfectly balanced. But I realize I might be in the very slight minority on this. 🤐

Are you serious? What made you draw a conclusion that "It's nowhere near cFB levels of busted dps"

 

For example, in fractals, scourge is doing like 37-42k pug dps on CM100 dark AI, while a good cfb and c slb usually only hits between 30-35k.  If you never pug, lemme give you some ideas, the so-called meta class as stated by Discretize is condi slb and condi FB. However, neither cfb nor c slb can beat scourge in pugs for dark AI. There is a huge dps gap between c scourge and cslb/cfb in PUGs (i.e. 7-10k gap and yes that's right because the longer the phase, the more the gap will be, and most pugs cannot push fast due to the use of healbrand).  Everyone knows the golem bench but it doesnt reflect what's happening in the real fight. Why? Look at condi weaver and condi holo in real fights.

 

Skorv? Siax?  50-60k opener is achievable by scourge, with slow CC to stack enough condi.

 

Can't hit that number? Lemme tell you. Just press skills off CD (and if you want, do a tiny bit of precasting but it really doesnt matter for sustained dps) and run the right ascended gears with the desirable stats from Snowcrow, runes and sigils. That's all you need. If you tell me you are pulling lower number with scourge than cFB, just follow this simple pug video. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKKaJ2HD3PY

If the group in this video can be a bit faster (i.e. the cFBs), scourge should secure a 40k+ dps, which is mostly the case, if the rest of the condi dps players can hit 30k+, unlike what's happening in this video.

 

In raids, condi scourge is even more broken in pugs. Apart from the barrier to skip mechs, after the main May 11th patch, it constantly top dps in PUGs, in many bosses from w1-w5, plus w7 qtp while doing kiting. Even in the pwr oriented fight like deimos, scourge can have up to 70k opener (and yes it still loses to DH and slb for opener) and insane sustained dps (around 37k-42k ish, in a normal pug) that no other power classes can catch up. In other pwr-oriented fights like gorse, it beats cFB and all other pwr classes easily if the phase is relatively long.

 

Do you wanna argue that SC members don't run scourge in any speed meta comp runs? Well they are the elitist players who want to push to the extreme using some stacking strategies (e.g. prepatch stacking slb on MO, stacking chrono on Sabetha or KC, stacking guardian on Adina), while you should understand that the balance should be made for the general public, not on the elitist play style.

 

Lastly, I am not saying scourge does not deserve high dps, but having mechanics-broken features, high sustain, and high dps, and braindead rotation, all at the same time just does not make sense. There is a well balanced build named shortbow condi slb. It has braindead rotation, but it only pulls about 32k golem bench. It won't top dps in most raid situations, but it is still on a good standard. This is called balance.

 

Also, making scourge (a completely ranged and safe build) have far higher dmg output than reaper (a melee build that suffers a lot from life force loss due to eating dmg) is simply a joke. This is totally off the point where Anet clearly stated "they want melee to do more dmg than ranged". The idea of "melee > ranged" is well implemented in other professions such as holosmith (sword/pistol>rifle), soulbeast (GS>longbow), dragonhunter (Sword/focus/GS>LB). Why should necromancer be an outlier? 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Xeon.5768

[Xeon.5768]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm with you on this one. It's pretty much why I think we saw one minor change on May 11th; overall, it's a solid position for the class right now. Scourge has meaningful choices for players and covers a wide range of roles without straying too far into the extremes of any of those roles. Reaper is the 'DPS' option that people want. Aside from some minor issues with core traits, I wouldn't do anything with this class.

 

 I also saw that video. I think the interesting thing there was that it seemed the criteria applied to Scourge in that video is not consistent with all the other classes; I doubt any other class was assessed on the ranking based on how well they can carry. I also think there is irony there because while Scourge is 'god rank' because of it's ability to carry teams, it's hardly a reason any capable team wants it as a member. Also, this hasn't JUST been a Scourge thing either; necro has always been strong at doing the 'carry' thing in teams. It reminds me of saying "It's not the love they want ... but it's the love they need" Yup, carry Scourge is exactly that. It's probably the BEST build you can bring to a struggling team. 

Reaper is NOT a viable dps option compared to condi scourge, in most fights. Wherever in raids you can use reaper, you can use scourge to do much more dmg, and bring a lot of extra utilities that reaper CANNOT. 

 

Quoted from another post  ""*Making scourge (a completely ranged and safe build) have far higher dmg output than reaper (a melee build that suffers a lot from life force loss due to eating dmg) is simply a joke. This is totally off the point where Anet clearly stated "they want melee to do more dmg than ranged". The idea of "melee > ranged" is well implemented in other professions such as holosmith (sword/pistol>rifle), soulbeast (GS>longbow), dragonhunter (Sword/focus/GS>LB). Why should necromancer be an outlier? *""