Defending needs nerfs

[joneirikb.7506]

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think they really just need to restructure how the mode works again.  The auto updating structures ruined a lot of things as it took player activity out of it.  Then RBL just came along and destroyed any semblance of logic because towers no longer matter for keeps, the BL is huge to limit fights, etc. etc. 

 

At a basic level, defending should have a purpose, and attacking should have a purpose.  Unfortunately that requires probably a complete overhaul of the mode because they've strayed way, way from that.  

I've suggested in the past, a fairly simple hack, is to tie most of the rewards toward attack/defence events, where there are enemy players present.

Basically, half the rewards for everything in wvw, then add about +100% (anet would have to test and check results) rewards to attack/defence events only when there are opposing players. This will guide most players directly toward the structures, and have them willing to fight (as they actually get the most rewards from it).

They would still need to actually fix other things for long term, but most players form their behaviour after rewards (sub-consciously), so something like this would alter how players behave.

[schokelmei.8271]

Defending needs a buff, not a nerf.

At the moment it's just "make a blob, ignore the siege because your support heals through anyway, take the structure". If you can't do this, kick the rangers, thieves and other crap out of your group and bring meta classes.

What has to be nerfed is "off-hours" ppt trains, not defending vs. them.

[SweetPotato.7456]

1) the game mode is "capture and hold" mode, go talk to the instructor (he is the guy standing right at the spawn waypoint incase you didn't know, he will tell you,  it is made so that you have to defend your territory.

2) as it is defending doesn't give you much pip.

3) hitting people with siege does not give you much pip either. 

Are you suggesting to nerf something that is already without any rewards?  

Edited July 2, 2021 by SweetPotato.7456

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

idk what u play at, but the big ppt servers tend to stack 10 sup/guild arrowcarts... that does dmg. especially if they remember that they can use player dmg as well, not really possible to outheal on the longer hand unless u get a full zoneblob with metabuilds, which is like... never actually.. the case, these days.

(siege only does not dmg if u dont have the siegemasteries or use blue sieges, maybe)

 

siege should do more dmg against SIEGE, but way less against players.

 

the mode is still a pvp mode... this whole capturing thing is kinda by-effect. ur not meant to have your blobs ppt lowtier stuff on empty borders against 10 defenders, while you lose t3 main keeps against other blobs. i dont understand why this makes more sense than to form a proper defense on actually attacked things.

 

 

[Shinjiko.1352]

16 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

I've suggested in the past, a fairly simple hack, is to tie most of the rewards toward attack/defence events, where there are enemy players present.

Basically, half the rewards for everything in wvw, then add about +100% (anet would have to test and check results) rewards to attack/defence events only when there are opposing players. This will guide most players directly toward the structures, and have them willing to fight (as they actually get the most rewards from it).

They would still need to actually fix other things for long term, but most players form their behaviour after rewards (sub-consciously), so something like this would alter how players behave.

This too. Rewards would go a long way to actually making people want to defend or attack. I was playing Drizzlewood and noticed how you got more chests for having more areas held after the map ticked. It made me think. Why doesn't wvw have something like this on top of the current systems? It's already one of the most unrewarding game modes. Add a Drizzlewood style loot system too. On top of rewards for attacking/ defending. Just make the game mode worth while to tempt some people from other modes to actually play.

[joneirikb.7506]

2 hours ago, Shinjiko.1352 said:

This too. Rewards would go a long way to actually making people want to defend or attack. I was playing Drizzlewood and noticed how you got more chests for having more areas held after the map ticked. It made me think. Why doesn't wvw have something like this on top of the current systems? It's already one of the most unrewarding game modes. Add a Drizzlewood style loot system too. On top of rewards for attacking/ defending. Just make the game mode worth while to tempt some people from other modes to actually play.

If you've looked at how the reward structure in wvw is set up, you'll notice that it's almost entirely based on "personal rewards", for what you yourself do. There is a very good reason for that. 

If you start rewarding people on a server for the server doing better/leading, then we get more bandwagoning and people trying to transfer into the "top worlds" for free loot. Players always follow the feeling of rewards (even if the rewards isn't all that great). 

You have to be very careful with rewards, players will always try to put in the least effort to get as much as rewards as possible (human instinct). So where and how you let players gain rewards is more critical than what the rewards are. My suggestion above isn't really about rewards at all, but about changing player behaviour through that feeling of getting rewarded, it's basically to re-program players into seeking out fights.

[Telgum.6071]

7 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the mode is still a pvp mode... this whole capturing thing is kinda by-effect. ur not meant to have your blobs ppt lowtier stuff on empty borders against 10 defenders, while you lose t3 main keeps against other blobs. i dont understand why this makes more sense than to form a proper defense on actually attacked things

"This whole capturing thing is kinda by-effect"?

Wtf am I reading? So all the ppt system, siege and supply is "by effect"? Last time I checked it was the backbone of World vs World.

 

I think you and everyone who say nonsense like that are playing the wrong game mode, if you only want fights then you should head to HotM and play all day against other players. There it is, you have your pvp mode without siege, without defending, without ppt and all that crap you dislike, "added by-effect" according to you.

 

WvW is sieging, fighting and defending, like it or not, and will always be as long as WvW exists. And if you want to nerf siege damage then you'll have to nerf healing and broken stats like minstrel too.

[Fatal.1347]

18 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

"This whole capturing thing is kinda by-effect"?

Wtf am I reading? So all the ppt system, siege and supply is "by effect"? Last time I checked it was the backbone of World vs World.

 

I think you and everyone who say nonsense like that are playing the wrong game mode, if you only want fights then you should head to HotM and play all day against other players. There it is, you have your pvp mode without siege, without defending, without ppt and all that crap you dislike, "added by-effect" according to you.

 

WvW is sieging, fighting and defending, like it or not, and will always be as long as WvW exists. And if you want to nerf siege damage then you'll have to nerf healing and broken stats like minstrel too.

Ye, point was it used to be better for fights. Sieging and defending both suck now too. Are you sayin' halvin' siege dmg to siege was a good decision? Are you saying banner tactics were good decision? Claim buff? Faster autoupgrades? They didn't adjust most of those things even once. It is like heartstone, add busted cards and people spend money. Add useless glamorous bad content and people come back for a week then buy gems with tears in their eyes.

Your argument of making all complaining pointless would mean you don't care if defending stats were tripled and siege was made even more useless. "But it is still sieging!" Yea, dude, it is like telling all siege games are as good.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Stand The Wall.6987]

delete trebs

[xDuckYx.4920]

remove all kind of reflec and shields maybe more peoples would fight than

[Telgum.6071]

4 hours ago, Fatal.1347 said:

Ye, point was it used to be better for fights. Sieging and defending both suck now too. Are you sayin' halvin' siege dmg to siege was a good decision? Are you saying banner tactics were good decision? Claim buff? Faster autoupgrades? They didn't adjust most of those things even once. It is like heartstone, add busted cards and people spend money. Add useless glamorous bad content and people come back for a week then buy gems with tears in their eyes.

Your argument of making all complaining pointless would mean you don't care if defending stats were tripled and siege was made even more useless. "But it is still sieging!" Yea, dude, it is like telling all siege games are as good.

Perhaps you don't expect this answer, but in the same manner you and many others don't like tactics or claims, many people do. I totally prefer that over what most of the people of this subforum wants: a plain field to fight because they can't either mindless charge with their +50squads or get easy kills with their PVE rangers. All that you've listed has some room to improve, I'll give you that.

 

 

[cobbah.3102]

Learn to play , defensive siege is not an issue, site siege appropriately ,you drop catas at wall  what do you expect. Place them to draw out defenders boom there you go problem solved.

[Svarty.8019]

There are TWO distinct types of attackers, and that's the problem - we'll get different opinions from each.

 

1. Map-sized zergs have appeared which are literally unstoppable. This is problematic, since it makes defenders despair. The siege target cap of 50 is TOO LOW against these giant zergs.
2. Contrast that with anything smaller than a map-sized zerg - these can be stopped - they are the source of fun but they do sometimes/often lose, and they are going to complain about defenders.

 

[Virdo.1540]

Imo, defending needs a huge buff. 

 

A while ago, before the "All siege does 25% less damage" update came, it was still outhealed    doesnt matter how much siege you build. And its still like that.

[jacekplacek.7923]

"Map-sized zergs have appeared which are literally unstoppable. This is problematic, since it makes defenders despair. The siege target cap of 50 is TOO LOW against these giant zergs."

Boo hoo *crying emoji* I can't pew pew from 1st skill the group of 50ppl with 10 healers inside. To fight with blob you need another blob, that's all. It sound like you want to 10 defenders can easy kill 50 attackers with tactics like drop siege everywhere. PLS anet go buff rewards from edge of the mists and let pve bois train there not in wvw. Siege are usefull when cloud try to flip your objects, it's like 10 maybe 20ppl without voice commander and synchronization. But there is no chance they will nerf&boost everything to coordinated group of 50ppl loosing agaisnt cloud because they drop 30 arrowcarts. 

 

[lodjur.1284]

Catapults and rams taking 90% less damage while friendly players are nearby (like Dolyaks)

 

Knockbacks not interrupting siege while one has stability (this one is clearly a bug)

 

The invulnerability of build sites starting instantly

 

Would make a big difference 

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 7/2/2021 at 11:30 PM, Telgum.6071 said:

"This whole capturing thing is kinda by-effect"?

Wtf am I reading? So all the ppt system, siege and supply is "by effect"? Last time I checked it was the backbone of World vs World.

 

I think you and everyone who say nonsense like that are playing the wrong game mode, if you only want fights then you should head to HotM and play all day against other players. There it is, you have your pvp mode without siege, without defending, without ppt and all that crap you dislike, "added by-effect" according to you.

 

WvW is sieging, fighting and defending, like it or not, and will always be as long as WvW exists. And if you want to nerf siege damage then you'll have to nerf healing and broken stats like minstrel too.

the point is that we won't get on one point here, i supposed.

 

the points per tick are pretty much nothing but worthless. it resets each week. the overall score does not have any effect, no value. only some players feel as IF it had value. i have one account in t1, the other one in t5. both kinda "stuck", but i play the t5 one way more than the other. tier 1 is pretty much the worst place to be.

Wvw is a gamemode, where u have the option to get largescale fights. inside or around objectives. u surely still fight there over keeping or getting them. but holding them effectively for hours or days is plainly a numbers issue. so the only thing really having value is to hone your skills in fighting - it is futile to suggest other games, since many of us play gw2 for the combat system.

-> here, the balance patches made the experience worse for many of use, since the battles became more turtlemode, more slow, more forgiving, less reactive, less big bombs, more kiting, slower cooldowns, more favoring bigger numbers.
.... i mean, as said we can still fight outnumbered and win, but it's tiresome and u don't gain a lot of ground that way. sooner or later the random pugs quit, and at a scale of 1:4, larger scale fights slowly start to get very tough, bc u simply have not endless stab, not endless corrupts, not endless dmg - and longer cooldowns than your enemy.

 

the strong players don't log in every day and they dont always play 10 hours+ a day. i mean, who seriously has time for that? its nice and fun to be in the t10 global killcounts now and then, and that is way more emotionally valueable than having good ppt. still, isn't worth to playing crazy amount of hours.

 

the fighters also aren't these guys who cannot do anything than brining 40-50 blobs minimum. we're those who farm you with 20 ppl, leading to 40+ groups hiding behind your siege in your keeps and towers. sad story, but gets also boring. stacked dmg from seven-eight superior or guild arrowcartts + trebs + ballis + catas is just a bit more than a 20-30 group can sustain forever. combine that with 40 randoms on their pvE rangers sitting in keeps and having +800 extrastats and a ton of absurd range AoE ....

 

there is the problem.

 

we fought a crazy lot numerically outnumbered fights the last weeks, and won most still. still, defending is overall a bit easy. probably more easy than it should be.

 

the mechnics on siege etc are heavily outdated. nobody can seriously deny that.

[Telgum.6071]

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the points per tick are pretty much nothing but worthless. it resets each week. the overall score does not have any effect, no value. only some players feel as IF it had value. i have one account in t1, the other one in t5. both kinda "stuck", but i play the t5 one way more than the other. tier 1 is pretty much the worst place to be.

Then the problem is not the point system but the rewards, and this is well known even by people who play pve exclusively, that WvW rewards are a joke. To me seems more logical raising the rewards depending of your server position and your individual participation rather that removing the entire PPT system, which seems to be the wet dream of some PvP players. Again, World vs World is sieging, fighting and defending, not exclusively fighting. You have EotM for that.

 

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

stacked dmg from seven-eight superior or guild arrowcartts + trebs + ballis + catas is just a bit more than a 20-30 group can sustain forever. combine that with 40 randoms on their pvE rangers sitting in keeps and having +800 extrastats and a ton of absurd range AoE ....

 

there is the problem

Sorry but my personal experience, healing  numbers and boon uptime says otherwise, bring a bunch of scrappers and guardians and most of the siege becomes useless. Bring also some elementalists and you can easily take down mortars, which probably are the only ones that can truly counter a blob.

 

Unless of course you want to fight a heavily defended structure with your 20 "fighters" cloud with no organization and full of roaming and selfish builds. That can  possibly work against PvE blobs but I fail to see why is a problem that you can't surpass heavy siege with that. Isn't siege bad enough already?

 

Are LB rangers really a problem for you? Don't say that on the ranger subforum or you may never come back from there.

 

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the mechnics on siege etc are heavily outdated. nobody can seriously deny that.

Agreed, rework it, make it better.

[Fatal.1347]

24 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Then the problem is not the point system but the rewards, and this is well known even by people who play pve exclusively, that WvW rewards are a joke. To me seems more logical raising the rewards depending of your server position and your individual participation rather that removing the entire PPT system, which seems to be the wet dream of some PvP players. Again, World vs World is sieging, fighting and defending, not exclusively fighting. You have EotM for that.

Right now both are too split.
 Fighters: open field.
 PPTers: Get farmed inside keeps/near enemy spawn.

Good old fights used to happen inside keeps durin' siegin', not anymore.
 

24 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the mechnics on siege etc are heavily outdated. nobody can seriously deny that.

Agreed, rework it, make it better.

It used to be much better before they completely ruined it. Outdated is wrong word.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Telgum.6071]

53 minutes ago, Fatal.1347 said:

Right now both are too split.
 Fighters: open field.
 PPTers: Get farmed inside keeps/near enemy spawn.

Good old fights used to happen inside keeps durin' siegin', not anymore.

You really love expanding the situation of your server to the whole game mode, don't you? I must be on the only server which players do PPT and fight with no need to "split".

 

But yeah dude, I'll repeat myself: if you don't like WvW why don't you just move to the pvp arena and stop suffering and moaning about wvw being a dead mode and all that stuff?

[Fatal.1347]

33 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You really love expanding the situation of your server to the whole game mode, don't you? I must be on the only server which players do PPT and fight with no need to "split".

 

But yeah dude, I'll repeat myself: if you don't like WvW why don't you just move to the pvp arena and stop suffering and moaning about wvw being a dead mode and all that stuff?

Woah dude, no reason to get offensive. I am just here tryin' to make wvw better for all of us.

Fight same group inside a keep and the difference is night and day. Just draw conclusions from it and the fact that people learn from outcomes.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Telgum.6071]

12 minutes ago, Fatal.1347 said:

People aren't even attacking things anymore.

Stopping reading here. I really don't understand how people can come here and write lies as ridiculous as that and then be surprised when people "gets offensive". I'm starting to understand why this subforum has a terrible reputation across other platforms, ingame included.

 

The gamemode is dead - World vs. World - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Also I don't know how can you say that you want to make wvw beter after writing this, to me seems more like salt.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Fatal.1347]

12 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Stopping reading here. I really don't understand how people can come here and write lies as ridiculous as that and then be surprised when people "gets offensive". I'm starting to understand why this subforum has a terrible reputation across other platforms, ingame included.

Yea, the subforum isn't great. But it ain't like I am lying, I am just saying things as I see them. I am a big statistic person with longterm memory. People tend to judge me without knowing or remembering how WvW used to be.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Fatal.1347]

11 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

The gamemode is dead - World vs. World - Guild Wars 2 Forums

Also I don't know how can you say that you want to make wvw beter after writing this, to me seems more like salt.

New thread is up with big solutions. Raising awareness first. Too impatient, son.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Telgum.6071]

13 minutes ago, Fatal.1347 said:

It's just not fun to fight inside enemy, or friendly once you reach certain level, keep.

You don't like fighting inside structures, you don't like defending, you don't like stacking, you don't like siege. To me seems like you just don't like WvW.

 

But don't worry, I'll finish this conversation giving you the solution to all your problems and saving you hours of suffering, boredom and biased threads on the wvw forum. You just have to clic here.