Defending needs nerfs

[Fatal.1347]

It's ridiculous groups and guilds just def things instead of fighting open field. Not like there is much choice what to fight anymore.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[aspirine.6852]

Alt accounts posts are so dumb... Arent you that sad com from deso 😛

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@aspirine.6852eh, its the norm by now. most servers just hide and turtle and run if pressured. then complain about enemy blobs while they losing the fight really while having 30 people more on their side.... just ofc, rangers, thieves, renegades and condiFB, dps scrapper (and overall, condi dmg) aren't of much use in a largscale fight against any group that knows its stuff

 

but @ OP is correct about the statement that siege dmg VS player is absurd.

 

and the guild claim stat buffs combined with "presence of the keep" = 800 free stats. bit much, while still no major advantage in a lot of cases. (however, rather buff playerstats on "outnumbered" maps within structures imo.

 

often it matters more that u have a full map + big Q and nobody really fights. often also, bc they dont use builds that CAN fight. rangers waiting for days to pew pew, then get pulled and die or just run - or pew pew into some reflect and kill your own dps classes witht hat.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Hmm, a commander that leads bad attacks and leads to getting farmed is better bad.

 

But what of the followers that know this and do it anyways?

 

It's the sorrow of being dependent on the dorito.

[Justine.6351]

Well if they remove downed state and never nerf temporal curtain nor barrage that would go along way I would presume. Siege should do big damage, that's the whole point of it.

If large groups of people are hiding inside objectives from an enemy zergs its because they feel out matched or are out matched. Learn techniques to draw them out.

[Fatal.1347]

7 hours ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Alt accounts posts are so dumb... Arent you that sad com from deso 😛

What u mean? No

 

5 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

often it matters more that u have a full map + big Q and nobody really fights. often also, bc they dont use builds that CAN fight

True, too much useless stuff

Edited June 26, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Justine.6351 said:

Well if they remove downed state and never nerf temporal curtain nor barrage that would go along way I would presume. Siege should do big damage, that's the whole point of it.

If large groups of people are hiding inside objectives from an enemy zergs its because they feel out matched or are out matched. Learn techniques to draw them out.

 

What techniques would those be? The siege loving servers will literally siege up towers and sit in them like a day job.  There is no incentive to leave as they are all mithril and diamond ranks so they don't need pips.  

[Telgum.6071]

Please Anet just make 100men pvp instances so these people can go there a stop crying about WvW players playing WvW.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Every blob I see complaining about "zergs" hiding inside structures, it's a map que mad that the 25-30 pugs don't want to come outside and be 3v1'd.  The attacker has every advantage, even the walls favor the attacker.

 

Want to even it up some:

1. remove downstate

2. make every skill require line of sight to the target, including aoe's

3. remove all siege except rams and oil, limit rams to 3 on a gate

4. remove guild aura buffs

5. nerf boon sharing

6. make it so that only siege can damage and contest structures

7. remove the supply depots from SMC, still requires yaks to upgrade, but no free 1800 sup for the map que

 

Wait for a bit, see how that plays out and make adjustments or more changes if necessary.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Ubi.4136

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Please Anet just make 100men pvp instances so these people can go there a stop crying about WvW players playing WvW.

this is just bullcrap, u know.

even the fights in OS or EotM are just done 50v50 max, usually smaller bc is not that easy to get full blobs outside of prime or reset would just be nice if the mass-pvp format would be more about pvp and less about siegeturtleing and running away.

 

@Ubi.4136 only siege beeing able to dmg structures? lol. player versus door is afaik a very old thing siege dmg in all instances is overtuned rather. especially against players it should do far less. or limiting siege per area would be a nice thing, so u cannot get into a rain of 14 arrowcarts...

 

removing siege types? what the hell... this narrow minded "nerf everything, remove everything" is so bad. as if anet doesn't yet overnerf the game and bores fights down the a slugfest, where u can sustain out 99/100 bombs with a good group...

 

this "nerf-LoS" nonesense is just toxic.

it hurts hammer rev yet enough to lose so many dmg sources, and not beeing able to fire in any other direction than u currently stand (before it just autoturned) - just one example. scourge wells' placement can yet get messed up by terrain, worst case. so this line of sight DOES EXIST. if u'd want to make it  more severe/strict, just a clear no.

 

boonsharing nerfs: just no. get a necro with brain on your team. no excuses.

 

SM changes: no, in that way it makes no sense. SM supply isn't better or worse than any other.

 

DONT remove guild aura buffs... just change how stat buffs work. dynamic sytem, according to defender:attackers in area ratio. pretty simple.

maybe guild area additionally can give minor buffs for the very one guild that actually claimed it.

 

that to be said: only siege beeing able to -> contest <- a structure is a good idea. contesting by bott-like people for sometimes 8h+ is a really silly thing, ngl.

 

 

 

[MaLong.2079]

Hint: It is almost impossible to defend all objectives at the same time. 😉

[Fatal.1347]

2 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Want to even it up some:

1. remove downstate

2. make every skill require line of sight to the target, including aoe's

3. remove all siege except rams and oil, limit rams to 3 on a gate

4. remove guild aura buffs

5. nerf boon sharing

6. make it so that only siege can damage and contest structures

7. remove the supply depots from SMC, still requires yaks to upgrade, but no free 1800 sup for the map que

4., 5, and 6. are brilliant. The others little too extreme.
 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Fatal.1347]

Just now, MaLong.2079 said:

Hint: It is almost impossible to defend all objectives at the same time. 😉

I want to fight, don't care about taking stuff. Empty stuff borin'.

[Fatal.1347]

5 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Please Anet just make 100men pvp instances so these people can go there a stop crying about WvW players playing WvW.

Would it have keeps and towers with cliffs and stuff to outsmart enemies? WvW without the pointless tactics, dolly runners and defending buffs? Sign me up.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

All those other players who aren't playing the way I want them to is totally unacceptable.  Anet needs to change the game to cater to my play style!! 

 

Do I have the gist of the request? 

[derlistigeuhu.1658]

On 6/27/2021 at 3:37 AM, Fatal.1347 said:

I want to fight, don't care about taking stuff. Empty stuff borin'.

 

Play pvp?

[Phantom.8130]

Defensive siege right now is nearly useless against even a semi-competent pug group.  The arrow carts just tickle now, and groups just outheal the damage without even bothering to get out of the way.  Cannons aren't much better.  If you're dying to them, that's a very severe L2P issue.  

 

If a group is turtled inside a structure, crack it open with catas or trebs, then kill them.  If they have a counter treb/mortar, kill that first.  If they have shield generators, kill those first.  This is extremely basic stuff.  At this point in the game's life, there's zero excuse for not knowing this, and it's just pathetic to come to the forums and ask for something that's been nerfed into the ground to get nerfed even harder because you can't figure out the very basics of WvW.    

[Shinjiko.1352]

This thread really confuses me. I swear it's the defenders at a disadvantage in all cases.

 

1. They have nerfed siege damage so much that you just can't stop a bigger group anymore as AC's tickle now and can be easily sustained through. You literally need atrocious amounts built to even slow enemies down but they still just plough through it if they get in.
2. Walls still heavily favour the attacker. You can not stand on a wall at all to do damage to enemy siege because you just get melted or pulled. You cannot even stand at the very back of the wall because people can still hit you with aoes and the mesmer pull stupidly can pull you from the back and over the wall past the lip meant to protect you from pulls. Plus you can't cast a lot of skills from there because LOS applies to you whilst the enemy is free to hit you without seeing you.
3. All static permanent siege is generally useless due to the above point. You wouldn't dare sit on a cannon, or burning oil, you can barely get one skill off on them before being pulled or deleted by aoes.
4. There are lots of spots that have been unpatched where you can just break a wall through some cheese spot where you put the catapults against a nearby cliff or under it using splash dmg. This is generally to avoid counter damage or siege. Red keep EBG, Jerrifers and Mendons to name a few spots. You then actually can not get to these to counter them 99% of the time.
5. The amount of projectile hate in the game means you can forget disabling also, because even if you sneak in and burn every cooldown just to stay alive long enough to throw it in one of these spots. The constant bubbles will make sure it never gets through. They should make it so it doesn't count as a projectile.
6. The siege cap for attacking is so high and siege is so plentiful/ cheap now so it's not uncommon for people to throw down 4-6+ rams/ catas and just melt the structure like butter.  Add in the fact that Alacrity affects siege skills and quickness works on golems and they might as well just invite the enemy in.

I know I went on a bit but that's just what i've noticed over the years and it has not improved and only gotten worse with power creep and nerfs to siege. The game mode and systems seem balanced around the older game where damage was less, siege was not as abundant and people took longer getting into things so you could respond accordingly on time. This in turn would draw out fights that people crave because it wouldn't feel like a lost cause like it does today a lot of the time.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 6/26/2021 at 12:55 PM, Fatal.1347 said:

It's ridiculous groups and guilds just def things instead of fighting open field. Not like there is much choice what to fight anymore.

It there choice.Arena.NET already nerfed most siege weapons multiply times . I don't want to say it the main mode for WvW is/was siege war everything else was extra at the beginning. Nowadays Arena.Net focus mainly around said open field fights and GvG if you force people to it they may enjoy it at the beginning but the way it is now it too one sided so they  get bored of it and quit with WvW and some point.

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Shinjiko.1352 said:

This thread really confuses me. I swear it's the defenders at a disadvantage in all cases.

 

1. They have nerfed siege damage so much that you just can't stop a bigger group anymore as AC's tickle now and can be easily sustained through. You literally need atrocious amounts built to even slow enemies down but they still just plough through it if they get in.
2. Walls still heavily favour the attacker. You can not stand on a wall at all to do damage to enemy siege because you just get melted or pulled. You cannot even stand at the very back of the wall because people can still hit you with aoes and the mesmer pull stupidly can pull you from the back and over the wall past the lip meant to protect you from pulls. Plus you can't cast a lot of skills from there because LOS applies to you whilst the enemy is free to hit you without seeing you.
3. All static permanent siege is generally useless due to the above point. You wouldn't dare sit on a cannon, or burning oil, you can barely get one skill off on them before being pulled or deleted by aoes.
4. There are lots of spots that have been unpatched where you can just break a wall through some cheese spot where you put the catapults against a nearby cliff or under it using splash dmg. This is generally to avoid counter damage or siege. Red keep EBG, Jerrifers and Mendons to name a few spots. You then actually can not get to these to counter them 99% of the time.
5. The amount of projectile hate in the game means you can forget disabling also, because even if you sneak in and burn every cooldown just to stay alive long enough to throw it in one of these spots. The constant bubbles will make sure it never gets through. They should make it so it doesn't count as a projectile.
6. The siege cap for attacking is so high and siege is so plentiful/ cheap now so it's not uncommon for people to throw down 4-6+ rams/ catas and just melt the structure like butter.  Add in the fact that Alacrity affects siege skills and quickness works on golems and they might as well just invite the enemy in.

I know I went on a bit but that's just what i've noticed over the years and it has not improved and only gotten worse with power creep and nerfs to siege. The game mode and systems seem balanced around the older game where damage was less, siege was not as abundant and people took longer getting into things so you could respond accordingly on time. This in turn would draw out fights that people crave because it wouldn't feel like a lost cause like it does today a lot of the time.

 

+10 from me, that's a pretty good recap. 

[Zikory.6871]

Attacking objectives is super annoying and imo not fun but you can't nerf defending without nerfing attacking. No reason other then its annoying, I'd like to see the knock back on door catas gone. And AC siege cap reduced (with a damage increase or whatever)

[Fatal.1347]

3 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Attacking objectives is super annoying and imo not fun but you can't nerf defending without nerfing attacking. No reason other then its annoying, I'd like to see the knock back on door catas gone. And AC siege cap reduced (with a damage increase or whatever)

Yea. Defending feels okayish because you win the fight outright and even if no com, you can just cloud them to death. Attacker gets dull farming in best case scenario. Attacking used to be fun tho, seeing how guilds were fighting in every keep on borderlands every evenin. Now it's PPT, baiting open field fights or farmin', no fun.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Fatal.1347]

5 hours ago, Shinjiko.1352 said:

This thread really confuses me. I swear it's the defenders at a disadvantage in all cases.

 

1. They have nerfed siege damage so much that you just can't stop a bigger group anymore as AC's tickle now and can be easily sustained through. You literally need atrocious amounts built to even slow enemies down but they still just plough through it if they get in.
2. Walls still heavily favour the attacker. You can not stand on a wall at all to do damage to enemy siege because you just get melted or pulled. You cannot even stand at the very back of the wall because people can still hit you with aoes and the mesmer pull stupidly can pull you from the back and over the wall past the lip meant to protect you from pulls. Plus you can't cast a lot of skills from there because LOS applies to you whilst the enemy is free to hit you without seeing you.
3. All static permanent siege is generally useless due to the above point. You wouldn't dare sit on a cannon, or burning oil, you can barely get one skill off on them before being pulled or deleted by aoes.
4. There are lots of spots that have been unpatched where you can just break a wall through some cheese spot where you put the catapults against a nearby cliff or under it using splash dmg. This is generally to avoid counter damage or siege. Red keep EBG, Jerrifers and Mendons to name a few spots. You then actually can not get to these to counter them 99% of the time.
5. The amount of projectile hate in the game means you can forget disabling also, because even if you sneak in and burn every cooldown just to stay alive long enough to throw it in one of these spots. The constant bubbles will make sure it never gets through. They should make it so it doesn't count as a projectile.
6. The siege cap for attacking is so high and siege is so plentiful/ cheap now so it's not uncommon for people to throw down 4-6+ rams/ catas and just melt the structure like butter.  Add in the fact that Alacrity affects siege skills and quickness works on golems and they might as well just invite the enemy in.

I know I went on a bit but that's just what i've noticed over the years and it has not improved and only gotten worse with power creep and nerfs to siege. The game mode and systems seem balanced around the older game where damage was less, siege was not as abundant and people took longer getting into things so you could respond accordingly on time. This in turn would draw out fights that people crave because it wouldn't feel like a lost cause like it does today a lot of the time.

One can cheese in and take down defendin' siege over time, nothin has changed regardin' that. Fights are the major issue.

The real problem is lack of motivation to attack anythin since the fights _are terrible_. Yes, defendin' was ruined when they halved all siege damage to siege and added shield gens but attackin' needs to match regardin' combat stats so the game is fun again.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Fatal.1347

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I think they really just need to restructure how the mode works again.  The auto updating structures ruined a lot of things as it took player activity out of it.  Then RBL just came along and destroyed any semblance of logic because towers no longer matter for keeps, the BL is huge to limit fights, etc. etc. 

 

At a basic level, defending should have a purpose, and attacking should have a purpose.  Unfortunately that requires probably a complete overhaul of the mode because they've strayed way, way from that.  

[jacekplacek.7923]

I'm not in tier1 (thank God) and IMO i don't think defending should be nerfed, but points per kill getting from killing defenders should be higher. It's ridiculous if stronger group loosing "ppt" fights because they were by one hour in enemy t3 garri when third blob just flipping other stuff behind their back. It's annoying especially after relink when strong server stuck in tier5, and weak in tier1, and need 4-5 weeks until it'll be how it should.