Does Elementialist require a rework to rein in their design?

[Baine.9650]

Balancing 20 skills for every weapon set and combination and have them be weak enough to be spent in rotation without overpowering other classes seem to be the greatest challenge for Anet to balance out the elementalist. They are constantly thinking of the options that eles have in each situation, but never the reality that eles simply require too much skill to play on equal level as other classes.

 

An obvious way to balance this is simply to either (1) remove skills or (2) segregate their power

 

I think there are some good conversations to be had about ele traits controlling the attunements they have access too (maybe having the fire trait gives access to fire/water, and air access to air/earth, and arcane gives you more overall power at the cost of attunement choices, thus making core ele viable again)

 

Or even making each attunement a different playstyle. You can have a stacking buff the longer u remain in an attunement to emphasize the playstyle - power for fire, alacrity/crit chance/damage for air, condi damage for earth and healing for water.

 

That way you can have a focus on skillsets rather than interacting and going thru the entire tree.

 

Weaver can be balanced by changing how dual attacks trigger. Instead of the attunements swapping totally, they can have a main attunement (set by attuning to a single element 3 times out of combat) and then have a sub attunement which is the only attunement to be changed during combat (so you would only be fire(main)/-fire/water/earth/air(sub)) for the entire combat and have less access to different skills. 

 

Tempest can be balanced by gaining the stacking buff faster when channeling an overload - to reflect their gameplay style

 

Also please give eles quickness or alac. We need 1 of the 2.

 

 

 

 

[Emberheart.8426]

I disagree with the entire premise of this kind of argument. Core ele does not have as big of an advantage in terms of skill quantity as everyone thinks.

First of all, core ele has 16 weapon skills. Basic attacks don't really matter here, especially when they tend to be so weak. If you add utilities, the heal, and the elite you get 21 skills total.

In comparison core necro has 17 skills if you include shroud. Core revenant has 19 skills, only 2 less than elementalist. People make it sound as if ele has 2x the skills of other classes, but it's not even close.

 

It only gets problematic to balance if you include conjures. I don't know about you, but I'd rather the removal of conjures, rather than botching the attunement system.

 

[Puck.3697]

Does elementalists need looking at and maybe some areas redesigned? Yes. 

 

However these changes no. Condi weaver actually had really good burst. And power weaver was strong in its time. It's damage was never the problem. The issue is Anet repeatively nerfed it. 

 

I do beleive core, tempest and weaver do need a degree of changes. 

 

Core needs a rebalancing and given something the elites don't have, this is because it's fundamentally weaker then tempest and weaver.. as it never had any trade offs to go tempest or weaver. 

 

Tempest fundamentally is flawed as it brings a role (being the highest healer in the game) that the game doesn't require.. it needs some recalculating to make it more competitive with what the used supports and bringing to the Table. 

 

Weaver doesn't do enough DPS to justify its lack of utility. It's fine for it to not have utility providing they up tempest to give us a better support option to bring to the group when needed. I know people compare it to guardian but if the 40k DPS builds guardian offers don't bring any utility either.. 

 

Conjures can go espically if they are the reason we are limited from certain weapons (which isn't confirmed anyway) but they bring very little to do the Table realistically 

 

I think the roles are fine it's fine for weaver to be a pure DPS. But tempest needs bringing up. Power weaver needs buffing in DPS. And some of the nerfs to weaver in general need reverting.

[Axl.8924]

6 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

I disagree with the entire premise of this kind of argument. Core ele does not have as big of an advantage in terms of skill quantity as everyone thinks.

First of all, core ele has 16 weapon skills. Basic attacks don't really matter here, especially when they tend to be so weak. If you add utilities, the heal, and the elite you get 21 skills total.

In comparison core necro has 17 skills if you include shroud. Core revenant has 19 skills, only 2 less than elementalist. People make it sound as if ele has 2x the skills of other classes, but it's not even close.

 

It only gets problematic to balance if you include conjures. I don't know about you, but I'd rather the removal of conjures, rather than botching the attunement system.

 

 

I have a bad feeling next elite might end up with pets, since thats one area we haven't seen yet.

I was thinking of the way in everquest magicians work where  your dmg is partially from pet, and you can summon elemental pets with weapons while throwing gigantic fireballs of doom to blow up enemies

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Yer.8096]

11 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

I disagree with the entire premise of this kind of argument. Core ele does not have as big of an advantage in terms of skill quantity as everyone thinks.

First of all, core ele has 16 weapon skills. Basic attacks don't really matter here, especially when they tend to be so weak. If you add utilities, the heal, and the elite you get 21 skills total.

In comparison core necro has 17 skills if you include shroud. Core revenant has 19 skills, only 2 less than elementalist. People make it sound as if ele has 2x the skills of other classes, but it's not even close.

 

It only gets problematic to balance if you include conjures. I don't know about you, but I'd rather the removal of conjures, rather than botching the attunement system.

 

I agree with you in every word. Speecially about conjures... But eles still need a rework tho. Specially in terms of balance... 

 

You know what I really wish? I wish developers and design team really expose each profession pros/cons; not just a simples note in each patch. And answer some posts, defending sometimes their point of view, so we can try understand things that we couldn't see before. Until now, the sense I have about elementalists is that any dev play with them (I know thats probably not true, but looks like that sometimes). Why elementalists have damage but nothing more to help team like almost everyone else? Why elementalists have heals but almost useless because that is the only thing? Why elementalist have control but 50% or more are lost during a battle? Why everyone can cast a skill before an elementalist? Why elementalist have so low stability? Why all professions have long range control while elementalists (light and low HP) don't (except staff, but lets not discuss how bad is staff and how are almost impossible to really have CCs effective there)? I know there is exceptions, but I think my argument still valid. Thats why I think they need a rework... Each profession should be present and make diference... Nowadays I fell the only presence I can do as ele is that rage from other players... I feel people thinking before a match or even in fractals: dont you have a necro?

[Jski.6180]

There are for sure some skills that need reworks and some skills that seem to be pure place holders that have not gotten real updates from the start of gw2 i am looking at Ice Shards.

 

I am not sure if a cut to the different skills would be a good ideal but a lot of the skill ele has do feel like copy past of other skills fire balls water ball rock ball lighting ball comes to mind non of them feel different from each other for cast. You would think the different atuments would changes the skills cast more then the wepon the ele is using because its a mages not a weapon specialist.

 

I guess what i am getting at is that each wepon should have diffretn cast types depending on the atument. So say scpter air and fire should be the long range skills air staying mostly the same fire but becoming a ground target big hit / burn. Make earth and water more of an melee or close ranged skill so make earth a cone shot gun blast of an earth/rock "flame thower" that bleeds and is non projetcal make water simply a cone heal.

 

For staff i like to see air become the melee self aoe lighting strike as well as earth more of a staff / earth near the ele swing. Fire would be a ranged fire ball that blows up at the end of its cast and water would be a ground target heal no longer an projectcal.

 

For dagger it would be melee air lighting whip as it is and melee fire/ burning hit. Earth would have a rnged snip kind of like it is now but more 900 and not as grond lock as it is. Water would simply be fliped 180 so its traves in the air more and not along the grond.

 

I am not so sure about sword though i would like to see it get a ranged set of atuments.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Jski.6180
Added thoughs.

[Fueki.4753]

I don't think that a rework is necessary.

But many skills, including weapons, need to be buffed in either functionality or damage (or ideally both).

 

I don't think any weapon should be weaker on Elementalists because of the attunements.

When Elementalists effectively need as long as other professions to use the same amount of skills, Elementalist skill should not be weaker.

 

"But they have more weapon skills" is more of an convenient excuse to not bother buffing Elementalists and leaving them at the bottom alongside Warriors, than it is a valid reason.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Sunshine.5014]

We should STOP saying Ele has too many skills. The fact is that both Guardian and Engi has access to ~30 skills too.

[Fueki.4753]

46 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

We should STOP saying Ele has too many skills. The fact is that both Guardian and Engi has access to ~30 skills too.

But don't Engineer's weapons and kits suffer from the skill abundance as well?

I haven't played Engineer in combat in a long time, but I remember all the Weapons and most of the kits being really underwhelming.

I remember mostly camping Bomb Kit before I unlocked Scrapper and Yolosmith.

Edited July 2, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Arheundel.6451]

At this point, a rework is completely impossible and people should focus their suggestions on traits and weapon fixes. 

 

1)Sword- needs reductions on casting time or increased range

2)Conjures and arcane : useless for most part

3)Buffs to tempest support

 

That's what comes to mind at the moment, but there is more

[Baine.9650]

Maybe they should make tempest overloads provide weapon enhancements that grant boons on striking. We don't want extra damage, but just a way to add boons to our allies during combat.

 

Alternatively make conjured weapons stronger and easier to use. I'm thinking engineer kit kinda of easy where dropping a conjured weapon just leaves it on the ground again just for the player who dropped it, instead of destroying it entirely.

 

I think the biggest issue is that arenanet wants ele to remain weak because of their potential damage. I would rather sacrifice some of that potential if it means it becomes an easier class to play effectively.

[AliamRationem.5172]

14 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

At this point, a rework is completely impossible and people should focus their suggestions on traits and weapon fixes. 

 

1)Sword- needs reductions on casting time or increased range

2)Conjures and arcane : useless for most part

3)Buffs to tempest support

 

That's what comes to mind at the moment, but there is more

 

I agree with this.

 

It's pretty annoying to watch overtuned faceroll builds like cfb, scourge, and renegade deal more damage while also having massive cleave.  Meanwhile, sword weaver has no cleave outside of melee range and is more reliant on support for both offense and defense.  On top of that, all of these other builds also bring more utility and have legitimate support builds that are also favored over tempest. 

 

Can we have...something, please?  All of these builds are dominating in every PvE game type except maybe raids, where apparently someone did a golem benchmark showing condi weaver was awesome at fighting a target that stands still and doesn't fight back.  The truth is it's just not that great and doesn't deserve the heavy limitations it has with no compensation.

 

 

[zitounae.4803]

either anet really hates and mokes ele for years for real for fun, or it needs fundamental rework.

[TheDarkness.6947]

Far as I can tell elementalist is the most fragile profession in the game.  That’s a really big downside compared to all the other professions.  It also has the misfortune of requiring lots of clicks per minute even to kill trash mobs.

 

So why shouldn’t it be top of the DPS chain, and have some good utility too?  Is there a reason?  I can’t think of one.

 

Yeah, I think it needs a lot of work, if not a complete re-work.

 

Signed,

Necro main whose former ele main is parked at a JP until further notice

[Caeledh.5437]

 

On 7/2/2021 at 12:43 PM, Baine.9650 said:

They are constantly thinking of the options that eles have in each situation, but never the reality that eles simply require too much skill to play on equal level as other classes.

 

If repeating a string of 20+ keyboard presses makes you feel skilled, good for you really.

 

But it's something a pigeon could be trained to do. Not a skilled pigeon either. Just an average one.

 

Again, good for you if you enjoy the manic attunement swapping to maximise DPS but many players just don't find that FUN.

[SeTect.5918]

13 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

I agree with this.

 

It's pretty annoying to watch overtuned faceroll builds like cfb, scourge, and renegade deal more damage while also having massive cleave.  Meanwhile, sword weaver has no cleave outside of melee range and is more reliant on support for both offense and defense.  On top of that, all of these other builds also bring more utility and have legitimate support builds that are also favored over tempest. 

 

Can we have...something, please?  All of these builds are dominating in every PvE game type except maybe raids, where apparently someone did a golem benchmark showing condi weaver was awesome at fighting a target that stands still and doesn't fight back.  The truth is it's just not that great and doesn't deserve the heavy limitations it has with no compensation.

 

 

Yea people looking at benchmarks like: oh the dps is so good, it needs no buffs or even nerfs. 

Most players dont look at the boon reliance or the hp and heals.

A devastation renegade which does 40k dps will still be able to do the rotation without big interrupts because of the massive healing + heavy armor. Even in solo gameplay it will be fine.

Then comes vipers weaver or power weaver that has ~11.5k hp, light armor, no good heals sustain at all. You wont be able to do your rotation like you would like it to be, because nearly every hit ripps you over 50% of your hp while you have no good heal regains. 

 

Once someone even said to me: but you have water attunement!

Yes we have, but the healing is so low if you have no healing power. And you lose a lot dmg while swapping to it. The damage is even the biggest carry of ele because you have to put all damage out in open world while you have stone Resonance. Before you have 50 seconds cooldown on it again and you are fully without sustain. 

Ele does not need a skill that gives you 10k barrier for 4 seconds, it needs constant sustain. 

Fighting bosses with high health is a big pain with ele.

 

If I could change something, i would not increase damage. 

I would add more boons.

I would reduce stone Resonance barrier by 10-20% and add more constant healing then. 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I don't think a lot of people actually look at Benchmark/DPS rather than skill floor, support, sustain etc.  Contrary to the idol of one of us says on Twitch/YT.

 

First : you actually need to look at benchmark on google/YT, SC etc; if you're in this position it means you're looking for guides, advices on group content, and so you're expecting more than benchmarks. You don't care to do this effort if you're no into optimisation / cooperation but only for "dps".

Second : no matter what you see on SC, discretize etc you also have the true experience of actual raids and fractals or LFG, in pug or guildes.

 

That why you see scourges and FB everywhere, and even before 11May or HFB in fractals. Because it's truly easy and effective. May be not the "most effective" but the less risky in regard of the content, the hazards + the faith you grant to other players to handle their class and the content.

That why we almost didn't see weaver / tempest, even if we were 48k DPS top1 benchmark half the life of the game.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The number of skills ele has isnt really that different than what other classes have through elite specs. The problem with ele is its weak utilities and traits. A lot of utilities are outdated or bad, and the traits have always been an issue since they only focus on 1 attunement.