Removal of Reflect

[The Boz.2038]

7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If that's true, reflection would not affect it at all, so maybe you should look for solutions to that elsewhere.

I'm sorry, what?

[Astralporing.1957]

24 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm sorry, what?

I mean, you mentioned that you can't snipe and can't melee without going full glass - and that has absolutely nothing to do with reflects...

[The Boz.2038]

OK, I see you misunderstand my post. I suggest you read it carefully. Observe how one line has a "not" more than the other.

But I'll help you out, and explain again.

The snipe build does not work *unless* you are full glass. The damage just isn't there, due to the way power damage and the build scales. The "but you get your buddies to do it, too" argument is daft, unless you are in a perfectly synchronized kill team on discord, and that's an entirely different tier of play. 

The melee build does not work *if* you are full glass. You are just too squishy, and your evades stretch so far.

[Astralporing.1957]

Nah, the "snipe build" does not work, because it is not a snipe build. You're not supposed to kill opponents with one skill. It's when you can do that that the situation warrants a balance pass.

Not being able to kill opponents from range in few seconds with perfect safety is not a problem.

 

[The Boz.2038]

Hey, I wasn't the one that argued that it should work and I should be using it!

[anduriell.6280]

Why is it always the same salty comments agaisnt the ranger class comes from the same profiles. which  ranger did hurt you... 

 

Discussing this takes us nowhere, reflects are here to stay and unblockable should be looked upon case by case basis. 

 

Ranger with the multihit design does not work  with a 10 unblockables every 40 seconds skill. And piercing consume 1 stack by target. 

 

"me warrior, me weak please buff" types Warrior with 1 hit design does work with a Signet_of_Might every 20s + Lesser_Signet_of_Might every other 20s. So 10 unblockables every 10 seconds more or less. 

 

For the "me nade holo balanced, don't nerf" types, nades are AOEs and they are not impacted by reflects. And we all know rifle is not used because it deals big damage. 

 

So let's stop with the hypocrisy and the the hate toward the class, Ranger needs access to realiable unblockables if Anet keeps the current AOE projectile hate. 

 

It doesn't mean other classes don't need some love about unblockables, but ranger definitely is the one that needs it the most. It doesn't matter what Anet is prettending to do, as long the AoE projetile hate exists in the game more unblockable is needed. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Astralporing.1957]

Okay, maybe i should explain in a different way.

 

The problem is, you have wrong expectations.

 

Specialized builds should be strong within their area of specialization, but weak if forced to step outside of it. A full range build should be next to useless if they cannot attack at range - just as a full melee build should be next to useless if it cannot get into melee range.

 

Basically, playing a specialized build is gambling your specialty won't get countered.

 

The way to reduce that danger, and hedge the bets, is to go for a hybrid build, that is capable of doing more things. But then you should never expect to match the effectiveness of uncountered specialized build either. For being able to act in a wider array of circumstances, you pay with your effectiveness in any specific one.

 

You seem to expect to be able to perform to the top of your ability without danger of being countered however.

 

Hint: if you're wondering, i main a ranger.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

A full range build

Lemme stop ya right there, bud.

Nobody here is talking about this. Except you, who keeps insisting this isn't what we should be talking about.

[anduriell.6280]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Basically, playing a specialized build is gambling your specialty won't get countered.

 

The way to reduce that danger, and hedge the bets, is to go for a hybrid build, that is capable of doing more things. But then you should never expect to match the effectiveness of uncountered specialized build either. For being able to act in a wider array of circumstances, you pay with your effectiveness in any specific one.

 

You seem to expect to be able to perform to the top of your ability without danger of being countered however.

That is the point of my argument, there is not build a ranger can build towards projetile use because there is not enough counter in the class  against projectile hate. 

 

And almost every single weapon set include at least 1 projectile attack, usually the most damaging/relevant of that weapon. 

 

So no build from the ranger can be effective against any reflect effects. 

That's one of the reasons ranger is artifically kept outside from most pvp unless a meme build comes out. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by anduriell.6280
smol corrections.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

11 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

nades are AOEs and they are not impacted by reflects. 

I don't disagree with the rest of your message, but this statement is verifiably incorrect. Get a friend to play firebrand in the PvP arena or something, ask them to put down their tome bubble skill, throw your grenades into it, and then watch the grenades get reflected right back at you. It's the same with mortar kit, tossed elixirs, and any other projectile that creates an AoE where it lands.

 

The only exception to this is the poison grenades, but that's because this skill is unblockable. All of the other grenades can be destroyed by things like swirling winds, defence dome, etc.

 

This isn't me commenting on the balance of these skills or anything, just pointing out how that particular statement you made was plainly wrong.

[anduriell.6280]

5 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

This isn't me commenting on the balance of these skills or anything, just pointing out how that particular statement you made was plainly wrong.

I see your point and it was my mistake for oversimplying things.

 

Grenade is a projectile ranged ground target  AoE. Which means if you throw the nade against the wall it will bounce. But you don't need to do that, you can drop the nades at the feet of the bubble, they will not bounce and the AoE from the nades may hit the target. 

 

Nades are not impacted by reflects the same way as an arrow would be.

 

And i am not taking about balancing the skill, my play with engie is very short and i don't graps all the details of the class. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[The Boz.2038]

Add to that that many ground target explosive projectiles in the game "reflect" improperly, and actually rarely detonate at the caster's face. This includes Grenade Kit.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

7 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I see your point and it was my mistake for oversimplying things.

 

Grenade is a projectile ranged ground target  AoE. Which means if you throw the nade against the wall it will bounce. But you don't need to do that, you can drop the nades at the feet of the bubble, they will not bounce and the AoE from the nades may hit the target. 

 

Nades are not impacted by reflects the same way as an arrow would be.

 

And i am not taking about balancing the skill, my play with engie is very short and i don't graps all the details of the class. 

Fair enough, that's definitely true. Although I will say that it's a much bigger issue for something like magnetic aura (and similar effects) which can only reflect attacks that land on you directly, compared to bubbles or walls of reflection, which will probably keep you safe. Magnetic aura can be frustratingly buggy sometimes when it comes to reflecting those projectile AoEs, but I'm not sure if there is a good way of fixing it without drastically changing how all the skills work.

[The Boz.2038]

Now...

Can we mention the abundance of Unblockable that Thieves have access to? Are we ready for that conversation? Or should I mention how this isn't ranger-only a few more times, just to be sure?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Now...

Can we mention the abundance of Unblockable that Thieves have access to? Are we ready for that conversation? Or should I mention how this isn't ranger-only a few more times, just to be sure?

Given the majority of thief unblockable effects are tied to melee attacks, I'm not sure how discussing that is in any way relevant to a conversation on whether we ought to remove reflects. Besides, discussing thief unblockable would basically be admitting that Lan was correct when he told you to use your own unblockable attacks, right?

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Now...

Can we mention the abundance of Unblockable that Thieves have access to? Are we ready for that conversation? Or should I mention how this isn't ranger-only a few more times, just to be sure?

Sure ... discuss it all you like. If the discussion is all about removing reflects and you are claiming it's not about ranger-only, then it seems to me that you're sinking your own ship if you are going to point out Theif has access to lots of unblockable attacks to ignore reflects. 

 

I mean, I think you would be WAY more successful just admitting this is more about Ranger than you indicate. I'm not sure it would be better for you, since it would be absurd to remove a game feature to benefit a subset of builds for a specific class ... but at least the discussion wouldn't get bogged down in exposing the fallacies of things people say. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

if you are going to point out Theif has access to lots of unblockable attacks to ignore reflects

Wow.
Wow, what impeccable logic.

Praytell, do you know what those projectile unblockable attacks are for Thief?

[The Boz.2038]

54 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Given the majority of thief unblockable effects are tied to melee attacks, I'm not sure how discussing that is in any way relevant to a conversation on whether we ought to remove reflects. Besides, discussing thief unblockable would basically be admitting that Lan was correct when he told you to use your own unblockable attacks, right?

Are you honestly serious with this reply?

There are two simple concepts.

"Projectile weapons are not at all used in this format, not really liked in this other format, because of the abundance of reflects mainly."
OK? It's a simple concept. I hope you grasp it now, because this has been the topic of the thread this entire time.

OK, we can now move on.

"Ranger has access to one single unblockable skill, as far as the context of this thread is concerned. The mechanics of his attacks, combined with the functionality of this skill, means it is very, very much weaker than another class' analogue."
This is a comparison between the Ranger and Warrior signets. One is clearly stronger just based on the numbers, and works much better with the relevant projectile weapon skills of the class. It is not the Ranger one. 

Lan is not correct here on the "just use unblockables" if, of the five significantly affected classes (Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, Engineer, Thief), only two have "just use unblockables" as a realistic option (Warrior, Revenant). Ranger has one, and it works against his kit. Thief has none. We haven't even gotten to Engineer, because I'm trying to take this real slow now. That one gonna be a doozy, though, given how he has weapon switch and all (inb4 kits lol).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

For unblockable ranged attacks.

Choking Gas - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)
Shadow Shot - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

To a lesser extent.

Basilisk Venom - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

[Obtena.7952]

59 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wow.
Wow, what impeccable logic.

Praytell, do you know what those projectile unblockable attacks are for Thief?

YOU are the one bringing Theif unblockable attacks into this discussion (and no, if you don't know what they are, I'm not making a post to educate you). YOU tell US what the relevance is. if you are just going to make some vague reference to something that is evident you don't really know much about, obviously you need to expand that more ... or be challenged on it's veracity. 

 

I mean, let's skip a few useless posts ... what thief has or has not as unblockables is irrelevant to the conversation in the first place. The answer to ANY class that is using a ranged weapon in the face of reflects is already one we know ... build properly for the chance you will encounter that situation ... or if you don't, accept that your build is deficient in that aspect and play accordingly, even if it means playing in a way that you don't want to, i.e., withdrawing from the fight or supporting your team mates with ... whatever. 

 

The fact is that reflects are only a problem if there aren't alternatives to counter play them ... but there is, many of them, so this isn't an issue ... unless you are the kind of person that pretends Rangers are a 'ranged' class. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

 

13 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Are you honestly serious with this reply?

There are two simple concepts.

"Projectile weapons are not at all used in this format, not really liked in this other format, because of the abundance of reflects mainly."

 

Actually, you're slightly wrong about that. The concept that you stated at the beginning, and the one that most people in this thread are aware of, is this;

 

"Projectile weapons are not at all used in this format, not really liked in this other format, because of the abundance of projectile hate, including blocks, projectile destruction and reflects mainly."

 

I refer you to these two statements you made;

 

On 7/5/2021 at 2:36 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

What makes you think the current skills that offer reflect wouldn't get block instead, or that rangers and deadeyes would get perma-unblockable 100% uptime?

 

On 7/5/2021 at 9:09 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

We already have both Block and Destroy Projectiles (IE Projectile Block). These can easily cover all use cases of current Reflects, without making WvW rangers want to fling themselves off cliffs.

 

You said yourself that skills that lose reflect would likely be compensated by another form of projectile hate, and that the relative amounts of unblockable effects on ranger and thief would not need to be changed. Your own words. Most people here will understand that if you replace one form of projectile hate with another without decreasing the access to projectile hate in general or increasing access to unblockable ranged effects to counter said projectile hate, the net result is zero sum. The only possible effect your change will have, by your own admission, is so the ranged projectile attack user doesn't have to watch for their shots being reflected.

 

31 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

OK? It's a simple concept. I hope you grasp it now, because this has been the topic of the thread this entire time.

 

You said it buddy. Okay, now lets look at the rest of your reply;

 

38 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"Ranger has access to one single unblockable skill, as far as the context of this thread is concerned. The mechanics of his attacks, combined with the functionality of this skill, means it is very, very much weaker than another class' analogue."
This is a comparison between the Ranger and Warrior signets. One is clearly stronger just based on the numbers, and works much better with the relevant projectile weapon skills of the class. It is not the Ranger one. 

 

No, this thread is not a comparison between the warrior and ranger signets, and what other classes have is actually totally irrelevant to the discussion considering you framed your argument around rangers specifically. This thread is about removing reflect. Stick to the topic, OP. 

 

40 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Lan is not correct here on the "just use unblockables" if, of the five significantly affected classes (Warrior, Ranger, Revenant, Engineer, Thief), only two have "just use unblockables" as a realistic option (Warrior, Revenant). Ranger has one, and it works against his kit. Thief has none. We haven't even gotten to Engineer, because I'm trying to take this real slow now. That one gonna be a doozy, though, given how he has weapon switch and all (inb4 kits lol).

 

The fact thief has no place in group WvW meta squads has nothing to do with projectile hate. If thief has no unblockable, and if thieves do not complain about projectile attacks being blocked in group metas, then why are you even bringing up thief's access to unblockable effects in the first place? 

 

You essentially come across as wanting to reward lazy play by not having to worry about how you react to a counter. People are telling you to use the available counterplay (unblockable attacks), and in response you're trying to make it sound like it's not just a ranger problem by referencing another profession's access to the very counterplay you're being told to use by others. The fact that you even reference another class's access to unblockable (half of which actually have worse access at range than yourself) is undermining your original argument and reinforcing the argument of other people who are telling you to simply use the counterplay that has been provided.

 

I'm sorry, but people simply don't agree with your take on this. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

 

 

Actually, you're slightly wrong about that. The concept that you stated at the beginning, and the one that most people in this thread are aware of, is this;

 

"Projectile weapons are not at all used in this format, not really liked in this other format, because of the abundance of projectile hate, including blocks, projectile destruction and reflects mainly."

 

I refer you to these two statements you made;

 

 

 

You said yourself that skills that lose reflect would likely be compensated by another form of projectile hate, and that the relative amounts of unblockable effects on ranger and thief would not need to be changed. Your own words. Most people here will understand that if you replace one form of projectile hate with another without decreasing the access to projectile hate in general or increasing access to unblockable ranged effects to counter said projectile hate, the net result is zero sum. The only possible effect your change will have, by your own admission, is so the ranged projectile attack user doesn't have to watch for their shots being reflected.

 

 

You said it buddy. Okay, now lets look at the rest of your reply;

 

 

No, this thread is not a comparison between the warrior and ranger signets, and what other classes have is actually totally irrelevant to the discussion considering you framed your argument around rangers specifically. This thread is about removing reflect. Stick to the topic, OP. 

 

 

The fact thief has no place in group WvW meta squads has nothing to do with projectile hate. If thief has no unblockable, and if thieves do not complain about projectile attacks being blocked in group metas, then why are you even bringing up thief's access to unblockable effects in the first place? 

 

You essentially come across as wanting to reward lazy play by not having to worry about how you react to a counter. People are telling you to use the available counterplay (unblockable attacks), and in response you're trying to make it sound like it's not just a ranger problem by referencing another profession's access to the very counterplay you're being told to use by others. The fact that you even reference another class's access to unblockable (half of which actually have worse access at range than yourself) is undermining your original argument and reinforcing the argument of other people who are telling you to simply use the counterplay that has been provided.

 

I'm sorry, but people simply don't agree with your take on this. 

This response sums up the thread.

[Zeesh.7286]

I have seen some rangers run with lb/gs in zergs easy and fine. They pop Barrage at range, lb2 snipe backlines and GS melee into zergs when they're running with a tag while stance sharing and immob dropping into winds. If you're complaining about ranger not being "meta" for zergs, then you need to know the meta also has a lot to do with the boons/strips/utility a class brings FOR A GROUP and not just the type of damage. Shortbow renegade is being run right now in GvGs and it's got projectiles. Ranger isn't going to be meta suddenly for zergs if reflects get removed. 

 

It's feels to me like you don't run with a zerg properly and probably are one of those clouding roamers. Within a zerg, if your ranger projectiles do get reflected back, you will also have them blocked by the 50 million blocks/reflects that your own team is spamming provided you're with the tag where all the sustain is dropped and not running around 1000 away from your own server zerg yoloing on the enemy blob. In that case if you get everything reflected, it's on you.  

 

And If you're complaining about reflects in roaming/spvp?... lmao.. reflects are one of the better mechanics in this game. Learn to pay attention to the enemy icon and the modifiers around it

[Dadnir.5038]

7 hours ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

I have seen some rangers run with lb/gs in zergs easy and fine. They pop Barrage at range, lb2 snipe backlines and GS melee into zergs when they're running with a tag while stance sharing and immob dropping into winds. If you're complaining about ranger not being "meta" for zergs, then you need to know the meta also has a lot to do with the boons/strips/utility a class brings FOR A GROUP and not just the type of damage. Shortbow renegade is being run right now in GvGs and it's got projectiles. Ranger isn't going to be meta suddenly for zergs if reflects get removed. 

 

It's feels to me like you don't run with a zerg properly and probably are one of those clouding roamers. Within a zerg, if your ranger projectiles do get reflected back, you will also have them blocked by the 50 million blocks/reflects that your own team is spamming provided you're with the tag where all the sustain is dropped and not running around 1000 away from your own server zerg yoloing on the enemy blob. In that case if you get everything reflected, it's on you.  

 

And If you're complaining about reflects in roaming/spvp?... lmao.. reflects are one of the better mechanics in this game. Learn to pay attention to the enemy icon and the modifiers around it

 

True, the real reason rangers got issues with Zerg v Zerg in WvW is that the pet mechanism isn't fit for large scale battle. Both Druid and SB try to skirt around the issue but to many core traits and skill effects depend on the ranger's interaction with it's pet.

 

Imo, heavy projectile hate in WvW is standard since 2013 (along with portal and mass stealth, reflect was the only saving grace of the mesmer in WvW zergs in the early game).

 

It's funny but for a long time in the sPvP subforum, people have been coming to complain that they couldn't handle range attackers and the answer to those complain was "L2P, use dodge, projectile hate, LoS!". Now that players actively use projectile hate, I find ironic to have to say "L2P, use melee/unblockable when you face projectile hate!".

[anduriell.6280]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

True, the real reason rangers got issues with Zerg v Zerg in WvW is that the pet mechanism isn't fit for large scale battle. Both Druid and SB try to skirt around the issue but to many core traits and skill effects depend on the ranger's interaction with it's pet.

 

Imo, heavy projectile hate in WvW is standard since 2013 (along with portal and mass stealth, reflect was the only saving grace of the mesmer in WvW zergs in the early game).

 

It's funny but for a long time in the sPvP subforum, people have been coming to complain that they couldn't handle range attackers and the answer to those complain was "L2P, use dodge, projectile hate, LoS!". Now that players actively use projectile hate, I find ironic to have to say "L2P, use melee/unblockable when you face projectile hate!".

Again more misleading comments from a "i main ranger i promise, now nerf it" . 

 

Rework of the auras and introduction of the firebrand didn't have anything to do with the massive projectile hate creep. A continuation from the introduction of the scrapper in HoT.  And most recent  buffs to other projectile hate skills didn't have anything to do with it either. 

 

Just admit this deep hatred and total ignorance some you have towards this specific profession so we can move on. 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by anduriell.6280