Removal of Reflect

[Zyreva.1078]

Reflects are fun and easily countered by something called a "brain".

[Kodama.6453]

9 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"wait until reflect goes away"
Reflect *literally* *never* goes away in any WvW fight larger than isn't a 3v3 skirmish. The rare few moments it isn't physically present, it is "ready" to be, so you can't really capitalize on it not being there. So you don't even bring the weapon at all. 

WvW is basically the only content in which this is the case (reflect always being up) and considering that you just mentioned to get rid of reflect and not projectile block.... this doesn't make sense.

 

Even if reflect would disappear, bringing projectile based weapons to these fights would be pointless. Ok, they don't get reflected anymore. But they are still getting blocked, making your projectile skills useless. And guess what, the same skills which enable you to hit through projectile block also allow you to hit through reflects.

 

For WvW, literally nothing would change. And in other content, there is no point in removing reflect either.

 

Not to mention that I think WvW is a bad argument to begin with. Different effects are getting spammed in WvW, yeah, that's just what happens if huge groups of players are fighting each other. The ground is also constantly covered in different AoE abilities, so should we also remove all AoE skills to allow melee classes to move more freely and give them better access to their targets?

[Teratus.2859]

Sorry but I have to go with No on this.

Part of the fun of playing an Archer is knowing when and when not to use your burst skills.

Playing poorly should be punishable by reflects, it's a good and viable defence against ranged players.

[The Boz.2038]

10 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

you just mentioned to get rid of reflect and not projectile block

I said to replace reflect with projectile block. I specifically pointed out how block is not the problem.

Having a skill be blocked or miss? Not an issue. Whatever. Try again. Having a skill kill you? Yeah, no. Reason to never bring it with you at all.

[xDuckYx.4920]

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

WvW is basically the only content in which this is the case (reflect always being up) and considering that you just mentioned to get rid of reflect and not projectile block.... this doesn't make sense.

 

Even if reflect would disappear, bringing projectile based weapons to these fights would be pointless. Ok, they don't get reflected anymore. But they are still getting blocked, making your projectile skills useless. And guess what, the same skills which enable you to hit through projectile block also allow you to hit through reflects.

 

For WvW, literally nothing would change. And in other content, there is no point in removing reflect either.

 

Not to mention that I think WvW is a bad argument to begin with. Different effects are getting spammed in WvW, yeah, that's just what happens if huge groups of players are fighting each other. The ground is also constantly covered in different AoE abilities, so should we also remove all AoE skills to allow melee classes to move more freely and give them better access to their targets?

 The last part is very funny 🙂  now we could say the same like use your brain and dont bring melee weapon to avoid all those ground aoe dots etc.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"wait until reflect goes away"
Reflect *literally* *never* goes away in any WvW fight larger than isn't a 3v3 skirmish. The rare few moments it isn't physically present, it is "ready" to be, so you can't really capitalize on it not being there. So you don't even bring the weapon at all. 

Sure you do. Pop your unblockable and snipe down a high value target before joining the melee push.

 

[The Boz.2038]

"snipe down"

Let's see. Signet gives you ten stacks of unblockable. Rapid fire is ten shots. 
So, one-shot rapid fire build? That's your suggestion? Playing my-build-does-nothing-for-56-seconds-out-of-every-minute-and-can't-enter-melee-for-being-entirely-made-of-glass? Wasn't that on the toxic no-no builds list that everyone hates? Weren't you all "you switch weapons and enter melee" a minute ago?

[xDuckYx.4920]

lol yeah and now show me a ranger kills someone like guardian with heavy armor just with a single rapid fire xD

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"snipe down"

Let's see. Signet gives you ten stacks of unblockable. Rapid fire is ten shots. 
So, one-shot rapid fire build? That's your suggestion? Playing my-build-does-nothing-for-56-seconds-out-of-every-minute-and-can't-enter-melee-for-being-entirely-made-of-glass? Wasn't that on the toxic no-no builds list that everyone hates? Weren't you all "you switch weapons and enter melee" a minute ago?

I have been consistent in saying to use your unblockables and to switch weapons, to counter reflects. Indeed in what you just quoted I say that exact thing. Snipe a target, then join the melee push. The bubble bots could use the stance share while getting into place.

[The Boz.2038]

The "snipe" don't work if you not entirely fully glass.
The "melee" don't work if you entirely fully glass.

Brilliant build-making! Truly top notch content.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Good build choices being "don't bring a projectile weapon, lol"

Versatility is the hallmark of a good build. I don't see why building around anticipated defenses is an unreasonable thing to do. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't see why building around anticipated defenses is an unreasonable thing to do. 

Because the end result of this is projectile weapons not existing in an entirely gamemode, and being highly unpopular in another. You are literally arguing for the problem that I'm trying to solve as the solution to the problem.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Because the end result of this is projectile weapons not existing in an entirely gamemode, and being highly unpopular in another. You are literally arguing for the problem that I'm trying to solve as the solution to the problem.

Well, that's sensational really. Projectile weapons don't exist at all in WVW because of reflection? No, that's not true. 

[ThrakathNar.4537]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I said to replace reflect with projectile block. I specifically pointed out how block is not the problem.

Having a skill be blocked or miss? Not an issue. Whatever. Try again. Having a skill kill you? Yeah, no. Reason to never bring it with you at all.

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Because the end result of this is projectile weapons not existing in an entirely gamemode, and being highly unpopular in another. You are literally arguing for the problem that I'm trying to solve as the solution to the problem.

 

If the goal is to make projectile weapons more powerful in zerg play, then how would replacing reflect with block do anything? Although Firebrand has a lot more reflect than block, Scrapper has next to no projectile reflect, and yet that was mentioned in earlier parts of the thread as part of the projectile hate issue. If projectile reflect gets replaced entirely with projectile block, it's still not going to mean that projectiles are viable.

 

It seems like you're conflating the issue of players pew pewing themselves to death with projectiles not being usable in zerg play.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The "snipe" don't work if you not entirely fully glass.
The "melee" don't work if you entirely fully glass.

Brilliant build-making! Truly top notch content.

This right here is why nobody wants Rangers in the zergs... You build for the zerg, not for yourself, you become a part of an entity rather than being an entity onto yourself. You snipe the called target with the rest of the zerg using your unblockables to ensure you add to the DPS, you then join the melee pushers while supporting them with stance shares from Soulbeast or heals from Druid. People groan when Rangers join the zerg because most of the time they still act like they are roaming rather than acting with the zerg.

[Sobx.1758]

8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Good build choices being "don't bring a projectile weapon, lol"

"if I can't camp my 1500+ range weapon 24/7 in literally every situation, there are no build choices" , lol

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Still not accepting the fact that I made the OP with *everyone* in mind, focusing on the weapon types, and not just rangers? OK, cool. Cool.

haha, that's pretty funny. Here's your opening post though:

On 7/5/2021 at 10:09 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

The devs were on the right track with the removal of Retaliation. It was a clunky, badly scaling boon that was tough to work around from both a player and a designer perspective.

However, Projectile Reflect is still in the game. I feel like this should stop being the case. 

We already have both Block and Destroy Projectiles (IE Projectile Block). These can easily cover all use cases of current Reflects, without making WvW rangers want to fling themselves off cliffs.

Putting aside the fact that it literally reads like a typical ranger meme, the ranger is simply the only thing you've outlined there. Not "it would be a good overal game design" (it wouldn't), not "good for every class", but just... "SAVE RANGOS FROM COMMITING SUDOKU".

 

 

So just stop repeating this lie, because the intentions are pretty clear there, whether you restrospectively like it or not.

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The "snipe" don't work if you not entirely fully glass.
The "melee" don't work if you entirely fully glass.

Brilliant build-making! Truly top notch content.

Marauder Soulbeast with durability rune is less glass than marauder reaper , any DH, any thief, any berserker, scrapper when not hitting things, or weaver. If you run WS you get protection on dodge on top of merged bonuses.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Marauder Soulbeast with durability rune is less glass than marauder reaper , any DH, any thief, any berserker, scrapper when not hitting things, or weaver. If you run WS you get protection on dodge on top of merged bonuses.

Rangers can perma maintain Protection, get 33% condition damage reduction from it as a Soulbeast, while have access to six evades and a 3s block without ever touching a dodge key, and yet somehow don't seem to have the tools to survive in melee /shrug

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

 

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"snipe down"

Let's see. Signet gives you ten stacks of unblockable. Rapid fire is ten shots. 
So, one-shot rapid fire build? That's your suggestion? Playing my-build-does-nothing-for-56-seconds-out-of-every-minute-and-can't-enter-melee-for-being-entirely-made-of-glass? Wasn't that on the toxic no-no builds list that everyone hates? Weren't you all "you switch weapons and enter melee" a minute ago?

You know, the way you're reacting to what people say in this thread is the exact reason that people laugh at rangers. He's already said that it's not a personal attack, so maybe cool down a little and drop the attitude if you want to be taken seriously. 

 

On topic, reflect isn't a problem. I say this as a thief main who often plays rifle & P/D in the same deadeye build. Everything in the game has a counter, if I choose not to run S/D or D/P offhand to my rifle so I can pressure while the enemy is blocking/reflecting then I have to deal with my build being made useless in some scenarios. That's just part of the game.

 

Regarding Ranger not having a place in WvW zergs, it doesn't necessarily need one. Ranger, thief and engineer are the best of the best small scale/roaming professions in the game, and that is probably intentional when you consider heavy armour professions are generally frontliners and light armor professions are generally backliners. Not every class has to be useful in every scenario just like not every weapon is useful everywhere, but with the build template system there is literally no reason nor excuse not to have a roaming template and a zerg build template if you want to be useful in large scale fights. I don't expect my celestial DE to be useful in a zerg, I swap to marauder staff daredevil and join a melee party, or I swap to full minstrel DE and sit inside the enemy zerg to screw up their stealth rotation for my commander's push. 

 

Regarding the OP's change, it will literally change nothing. You will still fail to do damage to a target unless you do what Lan suggests and bring a source of unblockable whether it's reflect or projectile destruction, it won't matter. The only difference it will make is that people spamming ranged won't have to watch the target as closely to watch for reflects, which imo is a bad thing because it rewards lazy play. 

 

On 7/6/2021 at 3:19 PM, xDuckYx.4920 said:

and i mean for real why is it nearly only the ranger who needs perma change weapons to do something?

mesmer can use all time just greatsword or other range weapon without a need to perma switch

dragon hunter dont need to perma switch he can just use all time longbow 

deadeye never need to switch he can use rifle all time 

and i bet more classes never need to switch to be able to do something

Addressing this, ever since vanilla one of the distinguishing qualities of a good thief was whether they knew how and when to use shortbow. Mediocre thieves camp their DPS set and only uses shortbow 5 to run, a good thief knows how to use shortbow effectively mid fight depending on situation. So no, what you're saying about ranger being the only one forced to swap isn't correct at all, and the fact that you consider not needing to swap a good thing says more about your playstyle than you'd think.

[xDuckYx.4920]

30 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

 

You know, the way you're reacting to what people say in this thread is the exact reason that people laugh at rangers. He's already said that it's not a personal attack, so maybe cool down a little and drop the attitude if you want to be taken seriously. 

 

On topic, reflect isn't a problem. I say this as a thief main who often plays rifle & P/D in the same deadeye build. Everything in the game has a counter, if I choose not to run S/D or D/P offhand to my rifle so I can pressure while the enemy is blocking/reflecting then I have to deal with my build being made useless in some scenarios. That's just part of the game.

 

Regarding Ranger not having a place in WvW zergs, it doesn't necessarily need one. Ranger, thief and engineer are the best of the best small scale/roaming professions in the game, and that is probably intentional when you consider heavy armour professions are generally frontliners and light armor professions are generally backliners. Not every class has to be useful in every scenario just like not every weapon is useful everywhere, but with the build template system there is literally no reason nor excuse not to have a roaming template and a zerg build template if you want to be useful in large scale fights. I don't expect my celestial DE to be useful in a zerg, I swap to marauder staff daredevil and join a melee party, or I swap to full minstrel DE and sit inside the enemy zerg to screw up their stealth rotation for my commander's push. 

 

Regarding the OP's change, it will literally change nothing. You will still fail to do damage to a target unless you do what Lan suggests and bring a source of unblockable whether it's reflect or projectile destruction, it won't matter. The only difference it will make is that people spamming ranged won't have to watch the target as closely to watch for reflects, which imo is a bad thing because it rewards lazy play. 

 

Addressing this, ever since vanilla one of the distinguishing qualities of a good thief was whether they knew how and when to use shortbow. Mediocre thieves camp their DPS set and only uses shortbow 5 to run, a good thief knows how to use shortbow effectively mid fight depending on situation. So no, what you're saying about ranger being the only one forced to swap isn't correct at all, and the fact that you consider not needing to swap a good thing says more about your playstyle than you'd think.

Did you even read your own post man? At some point you say heavy armors are frontliners and meduim/light backliners and still dont get the point that they force us to use melee very logical no?

And your last part first of all i said nearly no other class need to swap weapons and not no other class and a thief doesnt realy need to swap to shortbow or whatever because of their perma stealth so they can just run/move away.....i would love to see they complety remove stealth from thiefs/deadeyes so they can go melee with their paper armors and getting killed in 2 hits 

[Kodama.6453]

5 hours ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

 The last part is very funny 🙂  now we could say the same like use your brain and dont bring melee weapon to avoid all those ground aoe dots etc.

Melees are using their brain in these situations....

 

What are melees doing to cope with all the AoE brought to the game? They avoid the AoE through movement, if necessary even retreating to get a position to fight on, or they are using counter measures to deal with these situations like strong sustain, blocks, etc.

 

Now, please, apply the same logic for ranged. There are reflects, which are an obstacle for you. You have several methods to deal with it. Either you avoid going ranged, you avoid the reflects through positioning, wait it out or use counter measures to deal with the reflec (unblockable, for example, which is available for rangers, btw).

 

Your equivalent is false, since what OP is trying to do here would be if melees are coming to the forum and demand for all AoE skills to get removed from the game, since it is hindering their gameplay. No, you have methods to deal with this stuff, USE THEM.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Melees are using their brain in these situations....

 

What are melees doing to cope with all the AoE brought to the game? They avoid the AoE through movement, if necessary even retreating to get a position to fight on, or they are using counter measures to deal with these situations like strong sustain, blocks, etc.

 

Now, please, apply the same logic for ranged. There are reflects, which are an obstacle for you. You have several methods to deal with it. Either you avoid going ranged, you avoid the reflects through positioning, wait it out or use counter measures to deal with the reflec (unblockable, for example, which is available for rangers, btw).

 

Your equivalent is false, since what OP is trying to do here would be if melees are coming to the forum and demand for all AoE skills to get removed from the game, since it is hindering their gameplay. No, you have methods to deal with this stuff, USE THEM.

It would also be like me asking for all Stability to be removed since it messes up my grove with hammer...
 

3 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

 

You know, the way you're reacting to what people say in this thread is the exact reason that people laugh at rangers. He's already said that it's not a personal attack, so maybe cool down a little and drop the attitude if you want to be taken seriously. 

He is just taking it personally that I have a different opinion than him. Whatever, let him keep making a fool of himself.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 hours ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

Did you even read your own post man? At some point you say heavy armors are frontliners and meduim/light backliners and still dont get the point that they force us to use melee very logical no?

Do you understand what the word "generally" means? 

3 hours ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

And your last part first of all i said nearly no other class need to swap weapons and not no other class and a thief doesnt realy need to swap to shortbow or whatever because of their perma stealth so they can just run/move away.....i would love to see they complety remove stealth from thiefs/deadeyes so they can go melee with their paper armors and getting killed in 2 hits 

The fact that you missed my point entirely only reinforces what I was saying. 

[Astralporing.1957]

20 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

The "snipe" don't work if you not entirely fully glass.
The "melee" don't work if you entirely fully glass.

Brilliant build-making! Truly top notch content.

If that's true, reflection would not affect it at all, so maybe you should look for solutions to that elsewhere.