Removal of Reflect

[Arheundel.6451]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:09 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

The devs were on the right track with the removal of Retaliation. It was a clunky, badly scaling boon that was tough to work around from both a player and a designer perspective.

However, Projectile Reflect is still in the game. I feel like this should stop being the case. 

We already have both Block and Destroy Projectiles (IE Projectile Block). These can easily cover all use cases of current Reflects, without making WvW rangers want to fling themselves off cliffs.

NO ...and I say it as a ranger main for the last 5 years with 5k hrs as active wvw/pvper. I will be always against the dumbing down of the game regardless of the class, with the level of dumbness we already have in game among all professions we can leave the tower rangers to their own devices, basically there is similar dumb gameplay available from other professions and with that said.....no to any sort of improvement in that regard.

 

Reflect is a form of punishment for the brainless spamming 2, it can be done strategically with a plan..or it can be done off cd without even thinking, we want to punish the latter.

[Arheundel.6451]

20 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Why is it always the same salty comments agaisnt the ranger class comes from the same profiles. which  ranger did hurt you... 

 

Discussing this takes us nowhere, reflects are here to stay and unblockable should be looked upon case by case basis. 

 

Ranger with the multihit design does not work  with a 10 unblockables every 40 seconds skill. And piercing consume 1 stack by target. 

 

"me warrior, me weak please buff" types Warrior with 1 hit design does work with a Signet_of_Might every 20s + Lesser_Signet_of_Might every other 20s. So 10 unblockables every 10 seconds more or less. 

 

For the "me nade holo balanced, don't nerf" types, nades are AOEs and they are not impacted by reflects. And we all know rifle is not used because it deals big damage. 

 

So let's stop with the hypocrisy and the the hate toward the class, Ranger needs access to realiable unblockables if Anet keeps the current AOE projectile hate. 

 

It doesn't mean other classes don't need some love about unblockables, but ranger definitely is the one that needs it the most. It doesn't matter what Anet is prettending to do, as long the AoE projetile hate exists in the game more unblockable is needed. 

I love ranger and I still say that unblockable levels are fine as they are! Unless we make it harder to burst from distance which....I don't want really. Those extreme rare cases where I fight alongside another couple of rangers who know what they're doing and we completely wreck the opposition.

 

People sitting in the back pressing 2 only without ever paying attention are already rewarded enough in relation to what other professions offer in term of easy gameplay.

 

Comparing rifle warrior and nade engi to sic'em glass ranger is really unfair and we both know it, I rarely faced great glass cannon rangers and when I do ...it's a scary experience because you must be always on guard to avoid being bursted down...on the other hand the vast majority of times I face rangers who die to reflect or for overextending and that is a good thing , bad gameplay should be punished and not rewarded.

 

If people want to press 2 as soon as they see a red name tag..so be it, on the other hand if they want actually achieve something than I want them to think on how and when to press 2!

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Again more misleading comments from a "i main ranger i promise, now nerf it" . 

 

Rework of the auras and introduction of the firebrand didn't have anything to do with the massive projectile hate creep. A continuation from the introduction of the scrapper in HoT.  And most recent  buffs to other projectile hate skills didn't have anything to do with it either. 

 

Just admit this deep hatred and total ignorance some you have towards this specific profession so we can move on.

 

I hold no "hatred" toward any profession, ranger included.

 

Fact is that there isn't more projectile hate uptime than before despite what you say. New skills with projectile hate? Sure. More uptime? No. You could already perma shut down projectiles in WvW in 2013 via mesmer, elementalist and guardian, adding engineer, revenant or any other profession to the list along the years change absolutely nothing to this fact. You could talk about powercreep if there was an increase in uptime of projectile hate but it's simply not the case.

 

And please, keep your "delusions" about what I think of ranger or my presumed "ignorance" to yourself. Those aren't of any worth as "arguments" in this topic nor in any other topic.

[anduriell.6280]

2 hours ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

Comparing rifle warrior and nade engi to sic'em glass ranger is really unfair and we both know it, I rarely faced great glass cannon rangers and when I do ...it's a scary experience because you must be always on guard to avoid being bursted down.

 

So what you are saying is that you find unfair a pewpew sic'em soulbeast has the chance of deleting one paper target  from 2000 units away from  the top of a tower once every 60 seconds.  I personaly think that is a meme build and I personally don't like when a profession lean too much into meme builds. 

 

And based on all of that you think it is fair to be able to hard counter a whole profession just with one effect.

Similar claims we may be hearing from other usuals in here like the pet does all the work and such so there is no amount of nerfs the profession may get because the usuals want the class to play like another class . 

And from there is coming all the hate  and ignorant claims towards rangers. 

 

44 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Fact is that there isn't more projectile hate uptime than before despite what you say. New skills with projectile hate? Sure. More uptime? No. You could already perma shut down projectiles in WvW in 2013 via mesmer, elementalist and guardian, adding engineer, revenant or any other profession to the list along the years change absolutely nothing to this fact. You could talk about powercreep if there was an increase in uptime of projectile hate but it's simply not the case.

You keep using missinformation at this point you are clearly doing it on purpouse. I told you where the projectile hate creep came from, i will not repeat myself. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by anduriell.6280

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

5 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

Again more misleading comments from a "i main ranger i promise, now nerf it" . 

 

Rework of the auras and introduction of the firebrand didn't have anything to do with the massive projectile hate creep. A continuation from the introduction of the scrapper in HoT.  And most recent  buffs to other projectile hate skills didn't have anything to do with it either. 

 

Just admit this deep hatred and total ignorance some you have towards this specific profession so we can move on. 

 

 

You ever hear the proverb, "When your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail"? Most people here are telling rangers to stop smacking the nuts and bolts with a hammer and go find a wrench, but some players in this thread are insisting on smacking away at it and telling people that the nuts and bolts should be more similar to nails to make the job easier. It's not the tool that people are making fun of here, it's the workman. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Double post, please ignore. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741
Double post

[AXLIB.8425]

This is by far the most idiotic post that got blown up in this forum that I have ever seen.

[xDuckYx.4920]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:27 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nah, the "snipe build" does not work, because it is not a snipe build. You're not supposed to kill opponents with one skill. It's when you can do that that the situation warrants a balance pass.

Not being able to kill opponents from range in few seconds with perfect safety is not a problem.

 

thats a joke right? Noone should be allowed to kill someone from range within a few seconds in a "safety" position? Than why is a thief allowed to perma stealth (safety ) kill someone in a sec and go back to stealth (safety)  is this fine for you? 

[Astralporing.1957]

21 minutes ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

thats a joke right? Noone should be allowed to kill someone from range within a few seconds in a "safety" position? Than why is a thief allowed to perma stealth (safety ) kill someone in a sec and go back to stealth (safety)  is this fine for you? 

No, it is not. And that issue should probably get addressed. Notice though how it has nothing to do with reflects at all (it is primarily a stealth issue)

[xDuckYx.4920]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No, it is not. And that issue should probably get addressed. Notice though how it has nothing to do with reflects at all (it is primarily a stealth issue)

oh realy has nothing to do with reflec when thiefs/deadeyes can kill from safe positions even before they can use their reflecs? 

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

oh realy has nothing to do with reflec when thiefs/deadeyes can kill from safe positions even before they can use their reflecs? 

Well... yes? You just said it yourself right now...

[xDuckYx.4920]

On 7/9/2021 at 2:27 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Nah, the "snipe build" does not work, because it is not a snipe build. You're not supposed to kill opponents with one skill. It's when you can do that that the situation warrants a balance pass.

Not being able to kill opponents from range in few seconds with perfect safety is not a problem.

 

so with this you just wanted to say no ranger should be allowed to kill opponents from safe positions instead "from range" huh? 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

so with this you just wanted to say no ranger should be allowed to kill opponents from safe positions instead "from range" huh? 

Oneshotting opponents from perfect safety with no counter possible? Yeah, i think that no class should be allowed to do that. Rangers or otherwise.

[xDuckYx.4920]

28 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oneshotting opponents from perfect safety with no counter possible? Yeah, i think that no class should be allowed to do that. Rangers or otherwise.

why no counter possible? ranger has unblockable only every what 40+ secs and nearly no ranger will oneshot you like other classes can do much more easy

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, xDuckYx.4920 said:

why no counter possible? ranger has unblockable only every what 40+ secs and nearly no ranger will oneshot you like other classes can do much more easy

Because that was what the person i was initially responding to wanted. You might want to reread the whole thread, instead of responding to only a single post taken out of context.

[Lazze.9870]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:28 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

As far as I know, if you build properly you can use barrage every 10s which is in no way inferior to what DH offer in term of ranged AoE.

 

DH plays Staff and Scepter/Focus for symbol damage and you lay down traps and sword of justice. That allows them to be mobile.

 

Quickdraw Barrage is ineffective in an organized zerg because it requires you to root yourself  all the time. It works when leeching next to a zerg, but it doesn't give ranger a spot in the squad. The DH way of doing it has much higher dps potential than Barrage spam.

 

"That's your prejudices showing there. The ranger don't have any less than other professions when it come to melee. It got strike damage nullification, block, dodge, evade skills, it can weaken, gain protection, transfert damage to it's pet... etc. It even got barrier."

 

The moment you start making build sacrifices to sustain yourself on for a dps role in a zerg, you lose your spot. There is no room to bring a skill like Protect Me for personal barrier sustain. You get one stun break, in soulbeast's case that should be Dolyak Stance with the shared stance trait. Rest should be damage (for Soulbeast's case that would be Signet of the Wild for damage + immob, Frost Trap or Sic Em). Otherwise you fall behind the competition.

 

That's irrelevant though. The melee option isn't the problem, GS is great for it. Like I said earlier in the thread, ranger suffers from not having a good secondary option next to GS that isn't projectile based. If it had a weapon that did damage similarly to rev hammer, aka non-projectile based aoe (more than just the one barrage that LB offers) it would easily claim a spot as a competetive damage dealer. Druid staff kinda falls into the category of being a suitable second weapon, but the power scaling is kitten, it has lower damage potential than soulbeast, the pet is useless etc. One step forward, two back. Druid doesn't have a place in zergs unless they up the support capabilities it has, other than being a niche immob spammer with some support (closest comparison would be support spellbreaker that does boon removal and CC + some support, but not enough support to replace the scrapper entirely.).

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POQAFlRweYbsLmJWuX6P1R8G-w

 

Marauder/zerker stats with scholar runes. Permamerged. Elite can be swapped out for Entangle. Add a second good zerg weapon to that build to replace what would be LB or double axes and you're good to go (both of which works when fighting GvG sized groups, but falls behind against big blobs). No need for active defense skills to sustain yourself on GS 100 % the time, which will only lower your damage potential, making you useless compared to the options (Herald, core guard/DH etc).

 

The solution isn't to remove reflects, it is to give ranger an alternative to projectile weapons that goes along with GS. Sadly Soulbeast would have been the best candidate to use such a weapon, unless another elite spec comes along with both a useful weapon and a mechanic that isn't completely useless in zergs. Chances are we will get a better secondary zerg weapon with EoD (compared to MH dagger anyways), but still suffer from having an unuseable mechanic for zerging.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Lazze.9870 Hammer is a popular community choice for a new Ranger weapon that could pair well with GS depending on exactly how Anet builds it. One mechanic I mentioned for it was to create a F5 that shadowsteps you and your pet to a target. Give it Deception utilities and another means to shadowstep away and you could port into the Zerg the moment a bubble drops and port out when it gets too hairy.

[anduriell.6280]

27 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Lazze.9870 Hammer is a popular community choice for a new Ranger weapon that could pair well with GS depending on exactly how Anet builds it. One mechanic I mentioned for it was to create a F5 that shadowsteps you and your pet to a target. Give it Deception utilities and another means to shadowstep away and you could port into the Zerg the moment a bubble drops and port out when it gets too hairy.

I am in hammer train but if Hammer is melee it would be paired with Longbow / Axe MH  unless the new spec would be planned to become the bunker Druid 2.0 with eternal self-sustain. 

 

If hammer brings no mobility it would not be used same as dagger mainhand unless it is such an OP weapon that becomes required. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I am in hammer train but if Hammer is melee it would be paired with Longbow / Axe MH  unless the new spec would be planned to become the bunker Druid 2.0 with eternal self-sustain. 

 

If hammer brings no mobility it would not be used same as dagger mainhand unless it is such an OP weapon that becomes required. 

A built in shadowstep on F5 would remove the need for mobility on hammer, and ranger being ranger that hammer bar would have at least one evade on it, maybe two, that attacks at the same time as the evade so eternal self sustain wouldn't be needed.

[anduriell.6280]

23 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

A built in shadowstep on F5 would remove the need for mobility on hammer, and ranger being ranger that hammer bar would have at least one evade on it, maybe two, that attacks at the same time as the evade so eternal self sustain wouldn't be needed.

you are correct. 

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

One mechanic I mentioned for it was to create a F5 that shadowsteps you and your pet to a target

Unless that spec comes with good CC and something like boonstrip, or damage utilities like wells, it isn't gonna do much in a zerg. Pet still instantly dies and the potential damage will be lower than soulbeast anyway

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Unless that spec comes with good CC and something like boonstrip, or damage utilities like wells, it isn't gonna do much in a zerg. Pet still instantly dies and the potential damage will be lower than soulbeast anyway

I mean it would be bunny thumper, so it would have to have good CC on hammer. Besides, its Anet. They could give ranger a 'hammer' only for it to be a ranged projectile weapon 😕

[Arheundel.6451]

On 7/10/2021 at 1:20 PM, anduriell.6280 said:

 

So what you are saying is that you find unfair a pewpew sic'em soulbeast has the chance of deleting one paper target  from 2000 units away from  the top of a tower once every 60 seconds.  I personaly think that is a meme build and I personally don't like when a profession lean too much into meme builds. 

 

And based on all of that you think it is fair to be able to hard counter a whole profession just with one effect.

Similar claims we may be hearing from other usuals in here like the pet does all the work and such so there is no amount of nerfs the profession may get because the usuals want the class to play like another class . 

And from there is coming all the hate  and ignorant claims towards rangers. 

 

You keep using missinformation at this point you are clearly doing it on purpouse. I told you where the projectile hate creep came from, i will not repeat myself. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No...on the contrary, a burst spec zeroing opposition is completely fair....as long as there are huge risks associated to the burst spec, people in this thread are asking to remove those risks and it's simply wrong.

I love oneshot gameplay and that cannot be denied but...at the end of the day oneshot gameplay can be easily nullified and executed, that's what makes it interesting and fun for me. No matter how you look at it from any class perspective, one shot gameplay is easy to execute compared to a structured duel, many professions are capable of oneshotting and all those builds require 3-4 buttons pressing combination maximum for reward and that is acceptable only because you can kill oneshot builds with similar zero effort and that's the risk of playing oneshot builds, now if you remove that weakness you're left with an unfair gimmick that even my grandma can run..

 

What makes a good burst ranger scary is that the player can wait, adapt and strike at the right time...and most times you won't see him coming, that's the gameplay which should be rewarded , switching targets, baiting CD..it's all part of good gameplay. Removing reflects would only invite the average Joe to camp even more that longbow from the sidelines , pressing 2 at every red name tab moving...boring and zero effort or risk gameplay which should not be rewarded more than that.

 

I remember that time I was playing alongside 3-4 amazing ranger players, we were on the sidelines picking off the enemy zerg backline as they were pushing, we were retreating as necessary with the enemy commander frustrated at being unable to kill us, that's what I want to see! 

 

Now people in this thread are asking instead to reward the player sitting in front of an enemy zerg, pressing 2 and die to Wall of Reflect...sorry no ty

Edited July 13, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Lazze.9870]

3 hours ago, anduriell.6280 said:

I am in hammer train but if Hammer is melee it would be paired with Longbow / Axe MH

 

It wouldn't. Not in zerg.

 

It would be Hammer/GS, melee damage with what's hopefully good enough utility to be worth running. Swapping out GS for a hammer is one step forward and one step back

[Grand Marshal.4098]

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