Removal of Reflect

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

I'm probably not making myself clear enough, but if any traitline on any class does not have 9 traits that are good in some situation, then those traits need reworking.

 

Well, I can agree on that, at least to some extent. The problem with inventions imo is the three "passive proc" traits and the fact that is has the turret trait which is an entire set of utility skills with its own problems.

 

It's not a gold standard or anything, but it's good enough to be meta in two modes and is generally a good traitline for any support build. The reason I kinda push the idea that it shouldn't be on the top of the pile of reworks is kinda related to what you bring up about Anet's way of balancing things. A limited scope with a big focus on what is meta and lesser focus on what doesn't work or doesn't provide anything meaningful. Inventions being meta in two modes and generally a solid baseline for a support engineer puts in it a spot where I'd hate to see Anet doing drastic improvements to it over existing traits/traitlines and related skills that are supposed to offer something similar. 

 

That is why I bring up druid which they have barely touched in any positive way since HoT launched and is in that awkard spot of being a support elite spec that "can't support" in 2/3 game modes. Druid is a bit tricky though, it is less about the traits and more about CA itself and a couple of staff skills. What they do with the traits depends entirely on that, although I have some ideas for what they should do if nothing else changes. I think Nature Magic is in more need of actual trait reworks to give core ranger a better baseline to back up a support druid that doesn't use spirits. Nature Magic now is basically spirits in pve, everywhere else it creates boon loaded ranger builds that eventually get nerfed. Reworking some of the traits to create better support alternatives would help the traitline while sidestepping the boon builds completely.

 

Anyways, I totaly agree with the point you made about mender's amulet. Removing the support amulet and only compensating three professions is ridiculous. In the case of druid, the scaling from healing power was already bad enough with mender's, and the only outgoing healing modifier it has outside of one minor (which for some reason is still a stacking one instead of a flat 10 %) is tied to a mechanic locked behind both a resource and lengthy cooldown compared to similar mechanics. At that point it would only make sense to make Lingering Light provide better outgoing healing at all times, and improve that while in CA, instead of being the backloaded skill it is now. A good change that also would directly compensate for mender's not being there, but Anet decided to do what Anet does best and ignore it completely.

 

But well, maybe they will get around to look at 300s passive traits at some point, and maybe also touch on the ones that aren't 300s while at it. Inventions could benefit from that.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/20/2021 at 12:35 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Anyway, have you ever played an immob shortbow build? 

Great you tell us how that works on non-ranger classes ... and maybe you would be on topic. Or maybe you are suggesting that the solution to reflects is to ONLY play immob shortbow Ranger and use melee on everyone else? So while those implications are rather ridiculous, I especially like the part where you say everyone else suggesting to use melee weapons to mitigate reflects is ridiculous ... even though that's the intended solution to the problem. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great you tell us how that works on non-ranger classes ... and maybe you would be on topic. Or maybe you are suggesting that the solution to reflects is to ONLY play immob shortbow Ranger and use melee on everyone else? So while those implications are rather ridiculous, I especially like the part where you say everyone else suggesting to use melee weapons to mitigate reflects is ridiculous ... even though that's the intended solution to the problem. 

 

Speaking of being on-topic...go reread the opening post that specifically mentions LB ranger. 

 

Also then reread how reflect isn't a problem for ranger as a whole (i.e. just LB ranger), and that melee weapons are the solution on paper (i.e. by those who don't play the class) but you can also use ranged weapons and not be bothered by reflect depending on build.

 

Oh, who am I kidding you are just post count padding again aren't you...

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Speaking of being on-topic...go reread the opening post that specifically mentions LB ranger. 

Sure it mentions it, but the discussion isn't limited to Ranger here ... they want to remove reflects, that's not JUST about Ranger. So when you say suggesting to use melee weapons is a nonsense response to the problem, you are wrong. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

26 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure it mentions it, but the discussion isn't limited to Ranger here ... they want to remove reflects, that's not JUST about Ranger. So when you say suggesting to use melee weapons is a nonsense response to the problem, you are wrong. 

 

My replies are limited to ranger though--I would ensure you are reading posts thoroughly before replying.  

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

My replies are limited to ranger though--I would ensure you are reading posts thoroughly before replying.  

Right ... so basically, you are telling everyone that is suggesting to go melee to deal with reflects who is on topic that they are ridiculous because Ranger 'should' be using immob Shortbow ANYWAYS ... somehow like using melee on Ranger isn't a non-ridiculous solution to begin with. 

 

I mean, whether you were talking specific about Ranger is irrelevant here, because using melee on Ranger or anyone else isn't the ridiculous solution to reflects you claim it is.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Aeolus.3615]

 

 

On 7/20/2021 at 4:54 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Wow, is all I have to say.  I knew longbow hate was a thing, but didn't realize it was a 10-page thread kind of hate.  

 

Most of you seemingly do not play ranger, because 'swap to melee' is literally the worst suggestion possible for this.  Specifically because sword skill activations are far too long (making the evades borderline useless) and greatsword is pretty much a kiting tool unless you run very tanky.  

 

As for unblockables, they took all of them away.  Signet of the Hunt is about as useful as a 300s CD passive at this point, so bringing it up shows extreme lack of playtime on the class.

 

So to counter it leaves the build everyone hates--immob shortbow.  Because good luck blocking/reflecting/etc. the shortbow, one way or another you are going down unless you have a LOT of cleanse.  The most spammable and least thoughtful build is also the most effective--sounds about right for GW2.  

 

10 unblockables for a 6seconds window every 32sec, this is not bad.... a 6sec burst that will ignore any block type... should be more than enough to kill most targets  or put target on danger.

 

I could see Hunt increased from 10 to 12 hits towards those 6sec, yet i belive 99% of rangers would not know how broken this could be.
 

On team play rangers can use traited signet thats is 32sec CD even faster.

 

This is thread with 11 pages full of lack of combat experience from quite some rangers 🙂

Edited July 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Gotejjeken.1267]

 

37 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right ... so basically, you are telling everyone that is suggesting to go melee to deal with reflects who is on topic that they are ridiculous because Ranger 'should' be using immob Shortbow ANYWAYS ... somehow like using melee on Ranger isn't a non-ridiculous solution to begin with. 

 

I mean, whether you were talking specific about Ranger is irrelevant here, because using melee on Ranger or anyone else isn't the ridiculous solution to reflects you claim it is.

 

I'll try to break this down one more time for you...

 

Reflect specifically hurts LB ranger, even more now that the unblockable sources LB ranger has are essentially non-existent.  Thus the opening posts specific mention of ranger. 

 

Distilling the problem down to 'use melee' is the ridiculous suggestion, because it provides no fix for balancing reflect vs. longbow.  

 

To prove my point that reflect is specifically harsh to longbow, I provided an example of a ranged case (which reflect is supposed to counter) that is not countered at all--shortbow.    

 

So either reflect isn't working well enough or certain ranged weapons like longbow need changing to give them options around being hard countered by a widely available mechanic.  

 

4 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

 

10 unblockables for a 6seconds window every 32sec, this is not bad....

 

You are assuming traited, meaning you have to take marksmanship to get that 32s CD.  That's too much of an investment just to use a secondary effect of a useless signet, since 25% increased movement speed hasn't been relevant in many years.  

 

Reinforcing my point of if you are going to do all that just run shortbow--no traitline or utility waste needed.

[Obtena.7952]

27 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

 

I'll try to break this down one more time for you...

No thanks, it's not necessary. Melee is a more than reasonable way to address reflects and any build you can present that is effective against reflects does not make that a 'ridiculous' method to so do. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No thanks, it's not necessary. Melee is a more than reasonable way to address reflects and any build you can present that is effective against reflects does not make that a 'ridiculous' method to so do. 

 

Not attacking the reflect is more reasonable then switching to melee.  So ya, kind of ridiculous when melee is the third or fourth best option to deal with something 😂

[Aeolus.3615]

58 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

 

I'll try to break this down one more time for you...

 

Reflect specifically hurts LB ranger, even more now that the unblockable sources LB ranger has are essentially non-existent.  Thus the opening posts specific mention of ranger. 

 

Distilling the problem down to 'use melee' is the ridiculous suggestion, because it provides no fix for balancing reflect vs. longbow.  

 

To prove my point that reflect is specifically harsh to longbow, I provided an example of a ranged case (which reflect is supposed to counter) that is not countered at all--shortbow.    

 

So either reflect isn't working well enough or certain ranged weapons like longbow need changing to give them options around being hard countered by a widely available mechanic.  

 

 

You are assuming traited, meaning you have to take marksmanship to get that 32s CD.  That's too much of an investment just to use a secondary effect of a useless signet, since 25% increased movement speed hasn't been relevant in many years.  

 

Reinforcing my point of if you are going to do all that just run shortbow--no traitline or utility waste needed.

 

So rangers  want to run some unblockables(actually more than any other class)and yout favourites traits???

That would be awesome for every one in every class... 😆

 

Im wondering what build u would run and still want unbloackbles w/o trait or use skill for it.... i would bet its everything damage modifyers???

 

I would actually request changes to:

Hunter's Shot imo is useless i kill most rangers when they use this, would love this to be changed actually.

Point-Blank Shot: unblockable if target is less than 600 would be great to push rushers bloking.

 

Btw i use hammer diviner and/or zerker dont u think i know how punishing relfect when a 6k auto with quikness gets reflects oh wait.. i tend to stop key 11111 key does not tends to get stuck. :🙉

Edited July 22, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

Not attacking the reflect is more reasonable then switching to melee.  So ya, kind of ridiculous when melee is the third or fourth best option to deal with something 😂

That doesn't make sense ...  How do you even determine that melee is the third or fourth best option to deal with reflects in the game? That's actually a pretty absurd conclusion considering that if you do anything BUT melee or use an extremely limited access to unblockable ranged skills, you are being affected by reflects. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

10 unblockables for a 6seconds window every 32sec, this is not bad...

Each unblockable procs and is spent on each hit, and your main damage ability hits ten times. Additionally, if the target has any ally anywhere in the line of fire, they will be soaking up unblockable stacks, blocking or not. Minions, turrets, clones, other players, all these consume stacks. Five targets? Two Rapid Fire arrows hit.
Truly not bad.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense ...  How do you even determine that melee is the third or fourth best option to deal with reflects in the game? That's actually a pretty absurd conclusion considering that if you do anything BUT melee or use an extremely limited access to unblockable ranged skills, you are being affected by reflects. 

 

1. Stop attacking / Kite

2. Use a spammable skill (like shortbow)

3. Use an unblockable of your own

4. Go melee

 

Anyway, we aren't arguing over removal of reflect--in fact I never have been in this topic, just that reflect is a bad mechanic with counters that shouldn't be counters, and finally that 'go melee' is a pretty bad option for me when I can do so much else before I need to do that.  

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

1. Stop attacking / Kite

2. Use a spammable skill (like shortbow)

3. Use an unblockable of your own

4. Go melee

 

Just making a list and putting melee 4th is your determination that it IS the 4th best option for dealing with reflects? OK, watch this pro move:

 

1. Go melee

2 ... everything else. 

 

Anyways, I get you want to make this a discussion about all the best ways to deal with reflects as a Ranger ... that's not what the topic is about. If that's what you focused on, the point went about a mile over your head here. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Just making a list and putting melee 4th is your determination that it IS the 4th best option for dealing with reflects? OK, watch this pro move:

 

1. Go melee

2 ... everything else. 

 

Anyways, I get you want to make this a discussion about all the best ways to deal with reflects as a Ranger ... that's not what the topic is about. If that's what you focused on, the point went about a mile over your head here. 

 

You do realize the above list is ordered for a reason lol--you don't just attack someone and they pop a reflect then you go melee and---gap close? Why? The implication is that you are far enough away to be ranged....talk about not making much sense.

 

Anyway, sorry to break it to you, but ranger is most affected by reflect--we even make the wiki entry:

 

Reflect - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

 

In addition, half the pages on this topic are arguing over rangers and LB; feel free though to keep spinning however you want as long as it makes you happy.  

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You do realize the above list is ordered for a reason lol

yeah I do ... so is mine. I asked you how you determine that using a melee is the 4th best option for dealing with reflects ... you simply provide me with a list with absolutely no explanation ... so I did the same. If arbitrarily creating a list is a 'justification' for how you prioritize, then you shouldn't have a problem with me doing the same thing back at you. If you DO have a problem with that ... then it should be obvious why YOUR list should ALSO be a problem for YOU. 

 

The difference is that you are trying to make this into a 'rangers hate reflects' thread ... except it's not. Using melee weapons isn't some weird or deficient way to deal with reflects like you want to make it sound. It's normal, it's intended, it's effective. Just because you have a SPECIFIC scenario in mind where you wouldn't use melee to counter reflects doesn't disprove that. This thread isn't a debate about all the scenarios and what is the most effective reflect counter for each one ... so I don't have any clue why you keep trying to have that conversation except to be disagreeable. 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

yeah I do ... so is mine. I asked you how you determine that using a melee is the 4th best option for dealing with reflects ... you simply provide me with a list with absolutely no explanation ... so I did the same. If arbitrarily creating a list is a 'justification' for how you prioritize, then you shouldn't have a problem with me doing the same thing back at you. If you DO have a problem with that ... then it should be obvious why YOUR list should ALSO be a problem for YOU. 

 

The difference is that you are trying to make this into a 'rangers hate reflects' thread ... except it's not. Using melee weapons isn't some weird or deficient way to deal with reflects like you want to make it sound. It's normal, it's intended, it's effective. Just because you have a SPECIFIC scenario in mind where you wouldn't use melee to counter reflects doesn't disprove that. This thread isn't a debate about all the scenarios and what is the most effective reflect counter for each one ... so I don't have any clue why you keep trying to have that conversation except to be disagreeable. 

 

I mean you quoted me and I'm only here because you keep going lol...

 

Anyway, for the final lap of the circle, my stance is melee is the worst option because you must switch from a ranged approach to a melee one to counter, when every other option listed allows you to stay ranged and does not force a switch. 

 

Not sure if you are PvE or competitive, but this matters, especially in modes like WvW where kiting will keep you alive more than anything.  Switching a weapon set just because someone pops a reflect is one of the worst decisions I can think of at the moment...

 

So while your 'counter list' has no explanation, mine is literally ordered in what I feel is best to worst. Of course if you would have read the post you partially quoted then removed the rest of, you'd know that.  

 

But alas, none of this has to do with removing reflect anymore so I'm not sure why you are still debating with me 😄

[Abyssisis.3971]

12 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

 

10 unblockables for a 6seconds window every 32sec, this is not bad.... a 6sec burst that will ignore any block type... should be more than enough to kill most targets  or put target on danger.

 

I could see Hunt increased from 10 to 12 hits towards those 6sec, yet i belive 99% of rangers would not know how broken this could be.
 

On team play rangers can use traited signet thats is 32sec CD even faster.

 

This is thread with 11 pages full of lack of combat experience from quite some rangers 🙂

It’s also not that good, infact it’s pretty bad when considering other options that provide unblockable effects for other classes.

 

Warriors have signet of power that provides passive 180 power, 10 stack of might, 10 stacks of unblockables, 80 ferocity on a 20 sec cooldown.
 

While reapers have an ~18sec cooldown for a 5 stack of unblockables, upwards of 15 total if hitting 5 targets, deal damage, has life steal and removes 2 boons per target.

 

32 second for shared fury, increase in movement and a 10 stack of unblockables, meh.

[Lazze.9870]

15 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

So rangers  want to run some unblockables(actually more than any other class)and yout favourites traits???

That would be awesome for every one in every class... 😆

 

Traiting it for a 8 seconds lower cooldown isn't important.

 

The problem with Signet of the Hunt is that is has a complete and utter trash passive effective that ranger was never in need of. Make it useful. Give it power as a passive. Then there is a tradeoff of losing that extra power stat to gain a stack of unblockable. Or whatever. Pretty much anything other than movement speed.

 

Then perhaps lower the cooldown sligthly. Because being higher cooldown than any equivalent skill with no secondary effect on activation is kinda poopoo as well.

 

Edit: what is this "more than any other class" nonsense? Ranger is among the classes with the lowest amounts of unblockable skills in the entire game, and only a high cooldown trash signet to make up for it. By the way, NO, that is not me asking for more, that is me telling you to stop bullshitting.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

It’s also not that good, infact it’s pretty bad when considering other options that provide unblockable effects for other classes.

 

Warriors have signet of power that provides passive 180 power, 10 stack of might, 10 stacks of unblockables, 80 ferocity on a 20 sec cooldown.
 

There is no ferocity on Signet of Might. The Signet Mastery trait gives 100 ferocity when you use a signet for 1m though, stacks 5 times in intensity.

4 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

While reapers have an ~18sec cooldown for a 5 stack of unblockables, upwards of 15 total if hitting 5 targets, deal damage, has life steal and removes 2 boons per target.

Yeah, but Necros need stunbreaks so that utility RARELY if ever gets taken. That and if someone is blocking they just swap to staff an put an unblockable fear at their feat.

4 hours ago, Abyssisis.3971 said:

32 second for shared fury, increase in movement and a 10 stack of unblockables, meh.

Meh, give it another boon if you want. Soulbeast had lots of unblockables, turns out it was too much of it so Anet took some away. It happened with Necro and stability.

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

The only problem I see with reflect it scales with your stats it isn't just reflection what it should be.

[Lazze.9870]

23 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Meh, give it another boon if you want. Soulbeast had lots of unblockables, turns out it was too much of it so Anet took some away. It happened with Necro and stability.

 

Well, they took it away from unstoppable union, which was understandable. Removing it from the warhorn and thus clarion bond was less about removing unblockables and more about changing call of the wild for.. reasons (I like the new one better, but it's still one source less). Making the one that is left a tad bit more enticing to put on your bar wouldn't hurt. You're giving up either sic em or a good stun break for it.

 

Ranger lost stability as well to make room for Dolyak Stance on soulbeast, which hurt core and druid. Necro got Trail of Anguish with scourge.

[The Boz.2038]

12 minutes ago, Lord of the Fire.6870 said:

The only problem I see with reflect it scales with your stats it isn't just reflection what it should be.

It uses the Power, Ferocity, Condition Damage, and Expertise of the attacker... and the Precision of the reflecter. Wonderfully consistent, innit?

[Abyssisis.3971]

32 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There is no ferocity on Signet of Might. The Signet Mastery trait gives 100 ferocity when you use a signet for 1m though, stacks 5 times in intensity.

Yeah, but Necros need stunbreaks so that utility RARELY if ever gets taken. That and if someone is blocking they just swap to staff an put an unblockable fear at their feat.

Meh, give it another boon if you want. Soulbeast had lots of unblockables, turns out it was too much of it so Anet took some away. It happened with Necro and stability.

Seeing how the discussion on signet of the hunt included it being traited, I included the other 2 skills as being traited. I don’t know where I got 80 from tho, that was my bad, but being 100 ferocity just increases the gap between signet of might and signet of the hunt.

And rangers don’t need stun breaks? 🤨 Signet of the hunt is rarely taken as well, it’s just not worth slotting in its current state. I don’t really care what they do with it either way.