Yo ANet, Why Can Mirage Give 10-Person Alacrity But -Chrono-mancer Can't?

[PseudoOAlias.4279]

I reiterate: Chronomancer...

 

Really hope you give some attention to old classes going into / after EoD. Wild Blow, Executioner's Scythe, Headbutt, Holographic Shockwave, and probably lots of other skills and traits still make no sense, and are still 100% farked in PvP and WvW with promise to iterate on them going on 2 years now.

 

Love the trend towards transparancy tho that yall are doing, please keep that up. & if you need anything other than "patience" from the playerbase let us know!

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Please, keep this on the mesmer-class forum which has debated this topic to death. Thank you.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[Arewn.2368]

Alacrity is an invigorating effect useable by multiple professions now. The visual effect has been modifed to no longer be mesmer colours.

It's not particularly "time" themed anymore.

 

The Chronomancer has a trait that improves alacrity and some built in self alacrity instead. The time theme of the spec has been re-focused on quickness.

 

Given the sheer potency of quickness and alacrity as boons, it doesn't make sense to allow one support to provide both boons. So they axed alacrity. 

It was either that or quickness, and imo quickness has a much greater feeling of "time being sped up" then alacrity.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Alacrity is an invigorating effect useable by multiple professions now. The visual effect has been modifed to no longer be mesmer colours.

It's not particularly "time" themed anymore.

 

The Chronomancer has a trait that improves alacrity and some built in self alacrity instead. The time theme of the spec has been re-focused on quickness.

 

Given the sheer potency of quickness and alacrity as boons, it doesn't make sense to allow one support to provide both boons. So they axed alacrity. 

It was either that or quickness, and imo quickness has a much greater feeling of "time being sped up" then alacrity.

Too bad Chrono sucks at providing quickness as well.

[SexyMofo.8923]

Power creep. 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

power creep = fun. And standing in wells is too hard.

[AXLIB.8425]

7 hours ago, Arewn.2368 said:

Alacrity is an invigorating effect useable by multiple professions now. The visual effect has been modifed to no longer be mesmer colours.

It's not particularly "time" themed anymore.

 

The Chronomancer has a trait that improves alacrity and some built in self alacrity instead. The time theme of the spec has been re-focused on quickness.

 

Given the sheer potency of quickness and alacrity as boons, it doesn't make sense to allow one support to provide both boons. So they axed alacrity. 

It was either that or quickness, and imo quickness has a much greater feeling of "time being sped up" then alacrity.

All they have to do is replace lost time with a alacrity sharing trait so chrono can't out put quickness and alacrity at the same time. People need to stop using this excuse or the "but years ago chrono could do everything, so now it's fine that they have a chop-up trait line and identity while being bad at most things they do" to justify the treatment chrono and on a larger scale mesmer is getting.

[Infusion.7149]

Yep Lost time would have been a prime target. You would either be able to supply alacrity OR quickness. On chrono you already get self-applied alacrity on shatters.

[Mik.3401]

18 hours ago, PseudoOAlias.4279 said:

I reiterate: Chronomancer...

 

Really hope you give some attention to old classes going into / after EoD. Wild Blow, Executioner's Scythe, Headbutt, Holographic Shockwave, and probably lots of other skills and traits still make no sense, and are still 100% farked in PvP and WvW with promise to iterate on them going on 2 years now.

 

Love the trend towards transparancy tho that yall are doing, please keep that up. & if you need anything other than "patience" from the playerbase let us know!

I think mirage getting alac was done solely to make them more of a ‘support’ spec in certain situations. I believe it was done in preparation for the EoD spec which seems likely to be more on the offensive side.

Anet seems to have forgotten chrono in the process - oh well

[Arewn.2368]

7 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

All they have to do is replace lost time with a alacrity sharing trait so chrono can't out put quickness and alacrity at the same time. People need to stop using this excuse or the "but years ago chrono could do everything, so now it's fine that they have a chop-up trait line and identity while being bad at most things they do" to justify the treatment chrono and on a larger scale mesmer is getting.

Yea, they could give that flexibility to chrono using the GM trait. Need quickness? Bring a chrono. Need alacrity? Bring a chrono.

Or they could give one of the two boons to mirage, whose reliance on confusion makes it a niche condi dps choice.

 

Chrono traitline is no less functional or "chopped up" then other especs. Their theme/identity is perfectly in-tact with quickness/time manipulation. 

And while they aren't at the top, their damage and support specs are perfectly respectable and good.

The thing about the top is that only one person can stand at it. With 9 classes and 18 especs, chrono isn't always going to be the one.

But hey, we can't abandon the tradition  of the mesmer sub' s perpetual victimhood. (Yea yea, bring on the proxy dislikes. I know)

[Aeolus.3615]

19 hours ago, PseudoOAlias.4279 said:

I reiterate: Chronomancer...

 

Really hope you give some attention to old classes going into / after EoD. Wild Blow, Executioner's Scythe, Headbutt, Holographic Shockwave, and probably lots of other skills and traits still make no sense, and are still 100% farked in PvP and WvW with promise to iterate on them going on 2 years now.

 

Love the trend towards transparancy tho that yall are doing, please keep that up. & if you need anything other than "patience" from the playerbase let us know!

U cant ??

 shame on u even Renegade has perma 10 player Alacrity!!!!

 

 

[Crossroads.5174]

I see multiple people saying chrono should choose between providing quickness or alacrity...

I strongly disagree, even the devs said that "chronomancers are quickness AND alacrity specialists" (I don't have time to look for the source right now, but if you look at the previous balance notes you'll find it in the "rationale").

 

When you think about it, the four "must-have" boons for group content (25 might, fury, quickness and alacrity) will always be covered by at least two players, it does not matter whether the combination is (1)fury+quickness and (2)alacrity+might or any other one (say (1)alacrity+quickness and (2)might+fury in the case of the chrono/druid comp).

 

As for the topic of the discussion: giving alacrity to mirage was frankly insulting, at this point mesmer's elite specializations have no identity left whatsoever, aside from being core mesmer++.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Crossroads.5174
format

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Given the necessity of standing in well for 3 seconds (as easy as it sounds...) it really should be 10 men effect when all other alacrity/quickness applications are easier

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:42 PM, Crossroads.5174 said:

I see multiple people saying chrono should choose between providing quickness or alacrity...

I strongly disagree, even the devs said that "chronomancers are quickness AND alacrity specialists" (I don't have time to look for the source right now, but if you look at the previous balance notes you'll find it in the "rationale").

 

When you think about it, the four "must-have" boons for group content (25 might, fury, quickness and alacrity) will always be covered by at least two players, it does not matter whether the combination is (1)fury+quickness and (2)alacrity+might or any other one (say (1)alacrity+quickness and (2)might+fury in the case of the chrono/druid comp).

 

As for the topic of the discussion: giving alacrity to mirage was frankly insulting, at this point mesmer's elite specializations have no identity left whatsoever, aside from being core mesmer++.

 

Alot classes lost a big chunk of their  identity over time due poor class design, and dev mentality towerd oveerbuffind so their class would be cool.

Game atm is stack only gimmick overperfroamnce classes, look at WvW 4 gimick overtstacked classes, wehre a  group can have lots of perma stuff easilly offensivelly and defensive.

 

Towards chronoe they were suposed to be masters of time so , since everything is boon and condi, then anything related with making things faster and slower and delay damage would be towards Chrono.

Chrono should be a buffer and debuffer in speed of the combat...

Meanwhile other classes apply perma chill, perma quickness, perma surperspeed, perma alacrity why have a chrono???? LOL, even scrapper gets the delay damage..pftt, confirmed scrapper true master of time delaying damage!

 

Ill keep saying this is what happens when everythign is condi and boon spam, classes loose identity  when others reach better results and  easier.

 

But gw2 Anet on class design is as  we all know... logic 👌

IF any Anet dev read this i hope u feel confused cause thats what most classes are.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Axl.8924]

14 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

Alot classes lost a big chunk of their  identity over time due poor class design, and dev mentality towerd oveerbuffind so their class would be cool.

Game atm is stack only gimmick overperfroamnce classes, look at WvW 4 gimick overtstacked classes, wehre a  group can have lots of perma stuff easilly offensivelly and defensive.

 

Towards chronoe they were suposed to be masters of time so , since everything is boon and condi, then anything related with making things faster and slower and delay damage would be towards Chrono.

Chrono should be a buffer and debuffer in speed of the combat...

Meanwhile other classes apply perma chill, perma quickness, perma surperspeed, perma alacrity why have a chrono???? LOL, even scrapper gets the delay damage..pftt, confirmed scrapper true master of time delaying damage!

 

Ill keep saying this is what happens when everythign is condi and boon spam, classes loose identity  when others reach better results and  easier.

 

But gw2 Anet on class design is as  we all know... logic 👌

IF any Anet dev read this i hope u feel confused cause thats what most classes are.

 

I mean some of the identity exists, its not like chronos don't shatter and give alacricity or necromancers don't turn into their shade form and throw bolts of fire or elementalists on tempest change elements to overload and blow stuff up.

 

Its just that their skills get messed up over time due to changes and personally there are a couple things i'd like changed and improved.

I won't comment on mes because even though i do play it, i don't know enough

 

For ele though, i kinda wish overload channel was faster, and the summon weapons were better and maybe for summoner only.

Also in my opinion this game has way  WAAy more problems than that. For starters, elites being direct upgrades instead of another playstyle which sacrifices something for some classes, and imbalances in their cores. It looks as if mirage could be a direct upgrade but i can't say for sure what it sacrifices.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Axl.8924

[Stavros.8249]

Because it also give quickness and it's the highest power dps in game. 

[AXLIB.8425]

7 hours ago, Stavros.8249 said:

Because it also give quickness and it's the highest power dps in game. 

Literally both qrapper and qb are better for the quickness role as they actually provide things other than quickness and the so called highest power DPS with a 28k DPS.

 

Even the pure damage DPS build isn't the highest one because that is dh (of course it is), the that's the one relying on perma slow on the boss which is just unrealistic. So unless you can guarantee at least 30% slow uptime you should go for improved alacrity, which have a benchmark lower than 1 ranger build, 2 guardian builds (one of them is even core), 1 ele build, 2 engi builds, 1 warrior build, and 1 thief build. So literally almost every profession other than necro and Renegade have a higher pure power DPS on a small hitbox (on large hit box power tempest and power revenant also perform better) have a higher DPS while being easier to play for the most part.

[Arewn.2368]

On 7/16/2021 at 10:42 AM, Crossroads.5174 said:

I see multiple people saying chrono should choose between providing quickness or alacrity...

I strongly disagree, even the devs said that "chronomancers are quickness AND alacrity specialists" (I don't have time to look for the source right now, but if you look at the previous balance notes you'll find it in the "rationale").

 

When you think about it, the four "must-have" boons for group content (25 might, fury, quickness and alacrity) will always be covered by at least two players, it does not matter whether the combination is (1)fury+quickness and (2)alacrity+might or any other one (say (1)alacrity+quickness and (2)might+fury in the case of the chrono/druid comp).

 

As for the topic of the discussion: giving alacrity to mirage was frankly insulting, at this point mesmer's elite specializations have no identity left whatsoever, aside from being core mesmer++.

Chrono HAS alacrity. It's built into the spec so fundamentally that you literally can't play without it (on shatter). It is also the ONLY spec in the entire game to have a trait which enhances the effect of alacrity, and this trait is taken on some meta builds. 

Plus it still has alacrity on the spec weapon (shield) and the spec utility (wells).

 

So yup, they are indeed alacrity specialists. Even if they don't have a meta, 10man alacrity share build. There's no insult in providing a fundamental game mechanic to other specs. We're not going to start advocating the removal of burns from specs other then fire attunement ele, are we? Fire attunement doesn't own burns just because it's named after fire.

 

Plus the spec's access to Slow and traits surrounding that are perfectly thematic.

 

I don't get the obsession with alacrity as a "time manipulation only" effect in the first place. It's a pretty generic gameplay buff. And even the word "alacrity" isn't in particular tied to time, no more then quickness or swiftness anyway.

 

Also, the devs say a lot of things, and their stances can change over time (haha).
Even the devs have said that chronomancers don't really manipulate time https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/1#post6173721

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 7/16/2021 at 5:13 AM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

power creep = fun. And standing in wells is too hard.

too limiting, if something drops aoe? unlucky, if its a fractal and you want to move fast? unlucky.
IMO first cast of wells should buff, sec tick should debuff, third should deal damage, and maybe chrono would be even viable in fractals

[Axl.8924]

14 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

Literally both qrapper and qb are better for the quickness role as they actually provide things other than quickness and the so called highest power DPS with a 28k DPS.

 

Even the pure damage DPS build isn't the highest one because that is dh (of course it is), the that's the one relying on perma slow on the boss which is just unrealistic. So unless you can guarantee at least 30% slow uptime you should go for improved alacrity, which have a benchmark lower than 1 ranger build, 2 guardian builds (one of them is even core), 1 ele build, 2 engi builds, 1 warrior build, and 1 thief build. So literally almost every profession other than necro and Renegade have a higher pure power DPS on a small hitbox (on large hit box power tempest and power revenant also perform better) have a higher DPS while being easier to play for the most part.

 

I did actually notice this. I was feeling that there was something missing but i couldn't quite put my finger on it.

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:12 PM, AXLIB.8425 said:

Literally both qrapper and qb are better for the quickness role as they actually provide things other than quickness and the so called highest power DPS with a 28k DPS.

 

Even the pure damage DPS build isn't the highest one because that is dh (of course it is), the that's the one relying on perma slow on the boss which is just unrealistic. So unless you can guarantee at least 30% slow uptime you should go for improved alacrity, which have a benchmark lower than 1 ranger build, 2 guardian builds (one of them is even core), 1 ele build, 2 engi builds, 1 warrior build, and 1 thief build. So literally almost every profession other than necro and Renegade have a higher pure power DPS on a small hitbox (on large hit box power tempest and power revenant also perform better) have a higher DPS while being easier to play for the most part.

If you are begginer, qrapper and qb are indeed better.

But there cannot be fast kill without chrono on 90% of bosses

[Matt H.6142]

Tides of Time - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) Alacrity with no target cap.

[Xaylin.1860]

Nice find. 5% base Alacrity uptime (not accounting for casttime and delays). Let's make this work, guys! 😜

 

Personally, I stand by it: I'm not mad about Mirage getting Boon support although I don't like it being linked to one single Ambush attack instead of, for example, Dune Cloak. The Might is fine. But group Alacrity up to this extent is ridiculous. Alacrity overall isn't the best choice for Mirage to begin with. I just feel like they did want to diversify the available Boon combinations on classes and didn't consider the class (Mesmer - Chrono - Mirage) itself. From what Mirage had, almost any other Boon would have made more sense. ANet clearly didn't pick those because they wouldn't change the meta.

[anbujackson.9564]

Reworking lost time to share alacrity in your group would be a mistake. Just like the rework to seize the moment was a mistake. I swear most chronos can't even give proper boons anymore if they don't have it.

 

Give wells a QoL update. No other skill in the game has no effect for like 3 seconds after you casted it.

 

Please do not promote more boon share with just shattering. Make people remember that there are existing options which can maintain your boons. It's sad to see that almost no one considers playing two chronos anymore.

 

Give boon duration a higher focus, Support/Dps hybrids are just powercreep.

[Infusion.7149]

If you're making a squad (not a party) the only reason to run a chrono over a renegade if Lost Time is changed is it's a power fight. Even then you would have a hard time opting for one over alac renegade which has 10 man alac. Boon rip and CC are applied by condi renegade. Even in a power fight, due to the way clones work mesmer has a ramp time. Condi RR renegade does more damage than power chrono without chronophantasma and is far more reliable because pressing F4 is far easier than shattering.

If you need > 50% boon duration then any alac chrono would be borderline unusable unless you can apply boons to 10 people ; you'd lose even more damage to the tune of ~22%  off the current ~28K. StM Dueling Focus is ~28K now when you don't use Danger Time and have slow uptime. Even before the massive buffs to renegade the past year or so, it was around 24K so requiring a massive boon duration on chrono would mean adoption would be negligible. After June 8 patch power alac renegade is ~28K and condi RR is ~37K (which is sort of busted).

 

The reason requiring massive boon duration is meaningless is if you can run 100% boon duration you can also run two of them (see condi RR). Unless it's a build that can also do adequate damage in line with other supports such as cQB (~30K-32K with allies) or have role compression such that it supports 10 people and/or does a secondary function such as healing (see HB) it won't have adoption.

 

In any squad you're going to want quickness, alac, banners , and might.
If you run 2x HB , 1 alac or 2 condi RR, 1 BS then you have it mostly covered but you could also run 2x cQB / StM chrono / quickness scrapper, 1 druid, 1 alac or 2 condi RR, 1 BS. When boon thief was 10 man there was some justification for it but most people aren't going to invest in gearing one now. The only time people want full boon chrono is the 10 man quickness variant or when it is tanking.

 

A change to lost time wouldn't change the grand scheme of things if it functions similar to StM (5 targets, 240 radius). People already opt to go for cQB over StM chronos most of the time when boon rip or heavy CC isn't a concern because chronos can't really output might or fury easily. When you compare 2x chrono with a revised Lost Time to 2x condi RR there's no way it would compete because you'd be short about 10K DPS per chrono unless one chrono ~28K DPS can do 10 man alac (then it could fill in for an 78-84% boon duration alac ren). All this points to condi renegade being overtuned (just under 41k full cDPS, 37K condi RR).

All that a change to lost time would do is offer people that play chronomancers a decent option to provide alac that is mutually exlusive with StM. It would be in a similar vein to scrapper quickness, which is not a highly demanded quickness source even though it is arguably stronger on Matthias / SH due to mobility.

The reason why wells weren't changed drastically is probably due to mimic and Continuum Split.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Infusion.7149