Thief Elite Specialization Prediction & Speculation Discussion

[Legion.4198]

I guess it is a master of shadows, heavily inspired by demonic Oni that uses offensive shadowstep abilities and shadow magic. I wonder if the main mechanic will Shadow Form or some form Shadow Theft/Siphon.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Legion.4198

[draxynnic.3719]

51 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

No, there is value in having two different takes on "the same role" but that's better left for different professions while e-specs should be used to, if still possible, differentiate within the profession in question.

Guardian sword and greatsword. Both different takes on a melee power weapon with a bit of AoE and mobility.

 

Warrior axe and greatsword are both melee power and dagger added to that, while hammer and mace are both melee CC.

 

Mesmer greatsword and virtuoso dagger are both primarily power ranged options with a bit of AoE.

 

Elementalist sceptre and staff are both overall hybrid ranged weapons with a bit of AoE.

 

And those are just the fairly cut-and-dry examples I can think of off the top of my head and without checking any details on the wiki to decide what certain weapons class as.

 

51 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

Except dagger is not a condi focussed weapon. It's hybrid.

 

If you're defining dagger as hybrid, shortbow and pistol really should be too, so scepter going hard in EITHER direction will distinguish it from the existing ranged options apart from deadeye rifle. That leaves power AoE, condi AoE, and condi single-target.

 

Either way, oh look, scepter. We'll find out what specifically ArenaNet has done with it in a few weeks.

 

But if I had an adjudicator I trusted, I'd bet gold that it won't be a melee weapon. That just smells like high-density copium to me.

Edited October 2, 2021 by draxynnic.3719

[Tails.9372]

14 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you're defining dagger as hybrid, shortbow and pistol really should be too

Not really, at least with dagger you can make one or the other a relative non factor as it has both skills that heavily feature conditions and several without them. Pistol as well as SB overhelmingly favor condi and P/P only "works" as power because it lets you get away with ignoring 80% of the weapon set.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Tails.9372

[AikijinX.6258]

I was wrong. I totally thought thief would be last. We are the next preview. Dope 😊 and that scepter has a spike /blade on it. It’ll be a bonk stick. With probably a mid range skill on like 1 skill.

 

Shadow Reaper

 

EDIT: let’s all remember not to get our hopes up. So the disappointment doesn’t hit too hard. Remember when CMC showcases these previews don’t get so excited. Bladesworn looked amazing. But in actual practice, wasn’t all that. WvW and PvP wise. Don’t count on anything.

Edited October 2, 2021 by AikijinX.6258

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Not really, at least with dagger you can make one or the other a relative non factor as it has both skills that heavily feature conditions and several without them. Pistol as well as SB overhelmingly favor condi and P/P only "works" as power because it lets you get away with ignoring 80% of the weapon set.

Shortbow and pistol skills mostly still have high power coefficients such that you can run them on power sets and still do decent damage. They're hybrid. 

[Doggie.3184]

6 hours ago, Legion.4198 said:

I guess it is a master of shadows, heavily inspired by demonic Oni that uses offensive shadowstep abilities and shadow magic. I wonder if the main mechanic will Shadow Form or some form Shadow Theft/Siphon.

^ *crosses fingers* ❤️ 

[Markri.9475]

My bet is on a way into WvW-zergs with booncorrupt aoe, maybe even "shroud". corruption or spectral Utilities.

[AikijinX.6258]

My guess is that since there  is a blade on the scepter, my theory is: As we melee our foes we collect blood on the tip of the blade which then drips down to the ball or sphere portion of the scepter, which is then imbued with blood magic. So every time we hit, melee, and kill an enemy we collect blood which drips and turns into blood magic, which we can use for some type of new f1 form or something or possibly it offers us boons. But I’m more so liking the blood magic cloak or blood magic coat type of idea: Where this coat gives us maybe 70% damage reduction while out of stealth or something crazy.

[Rezok.2709]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:58 AM, Tails.9372 said:

The problem with scepter is that "overlapping" can easily also become an issue here too depending on where they want to go with it (especially in regards to weapon choices for future e-specs).

I don't think it has the same problems. Scepter opens up the magical themes, which already makes it much different. As for actual role, it will probably be a 600-900 range weapon. So competing with P/P and P/D. Considering P/P is literally just power Unload spam, I think it's rather easy to not step on that playstyle. As for P/D, that already have a rather special style where it isn't truly ranged. Rather, it wants to get close to use Shadow Strike and Cloak and Dagger, but have temporarily moments at range.

Anything else done at 600-900 range would be a new combat style for thief. Compared to GS, it's much harder. A GS would have to somehow not be cleave melee. So either purely single target (imagine the rage if thief got literally the only GS to not cleave out of all professions, and making it basically daggers) or ranged somehow, like mesmer (again, pretty sure the thief community would rage over that).

[Tails.9372]

5 hours ago, Rezok.2709 said:

I don't think it has the same problems. Scepter opens up the magical themes, which already makes it much different.

Except I already clarified that:

On 10/1/2021 at 2:09 PM, Tails.9372 said:

I wasn't talking about it thematically

 

5 hours ago, Rezok.2709 said:

So competing with P/P and P/D.

And SB, so condi mid ranged AoE, condi mid ranged single target and power mid ranged single target has alrady been done with the later being more of an accident than an anything else and I wouldn't really count that as an actual power set until A-Net reworks how their "dual wielding" mechanic creates new weapon sets. That P/D is not a "100% ranged" option doesn't really mean much in the long run as a theoretical P/F, P/T and P/W would be and in that regard I already said:

On 10/1/2021 at 11:58 AM, Tails.9372 said:

especially in regards to weapon choices for future e-specs

Meaning for non power mid range options there are also torch (which is almost guaranteed to be another condi AoE weapon), warhorn (wich would fit a support role more than anything else), and focus (which could be condi damage or support). All of these would fit into both condi AoE and support roles better than scepter does, thanks to the weapons you can combine them with, while leaving us with at least 3 mid range weapons that heavily favor condi (4 if scepter ends up being condi and 5 if both scepter and focus end up being condi) while we don't have a single mid ranged weapon which predominantly favors power damage and the only 3 weapons left for that role would be scepter and main hand axe / mace (if they are thrown) with scepter being the only one of them where one could reasonably expect a focus on mid range power AoE.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Tails.9372

[nopoet.2960]

Anyone think the absence of an off-hand weapon in the preview is intentional?

[Fueki.4753]

13 minutes ago, nopoet.2960 said:

Anyone think the absence of an off-hand weapon in the preview is intentional?

Harbinger and Virtuoso only featured their new main hand weapons as well.

And the artwork for Bladesworn technically doesn't feature any actual weapon at all, since it features the Gun-not-a-sabre, which is a mechanic, not a weapon.

Willbender was the only one so far to feature weapon from the core profession (because it demonstrates guardian dual-wielding swords as an homage to Shiro).

Thus, I think it's no more than an artistic choice that there is no offhand weapon (or at least not visible).

Edited October 3, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Kodama.6453]

6 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Harbinger and Virtuoso only featured their new main hand weapons as well.

And the artwork for Bladesworn technically doesn't feature any actual weapon at all, since it features the Gun-not-a-sabre, which is a mechanic, not a weapon.

Willbender was the only one so far to feature weapon from the core profession (because it demonstrates guardian dual-wielding swords as an homage to Shiro).

Thus, I think it's no more than an artistic choice that there is no offhand weapon (or at least not visible).

Yeah, agreed, this most likely doesn't mean anything. Specs are usually just pictured with their new elite spec weapons. Even specs which got exclusive offhand weapons (shield, torch, warhorn) got pictured just with that single weapon and no mainhand.

[Dadnir.5038]

The teaser make it look a bit like a magical girl using it's scepter to transform.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

To be honest, my main fear is that it's gonna be useless everywhere. If it turns out to be so good it's meta in fractals/raids or in WvW group play then i can probably forgive anything it fails at on the WvW roaming or PvP front. 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Meaning for non power mid range options there are also torch (which is almost guaranteed to be another condi AoE weapon), warhorn (wich would fit a support role more than anything else), and focus (which could be condi damage or support). All of these would fit into both condi AoE and support roles better than scepter does, thanks to the weapons you can combine them with, while leaving us with at least 3 mid range weapons that heavily favor condi (4 if scepter ends up being condi and 5 if both scepter and focus end up being condi) while we don't have a single mid ranged weapon which predominantly favors power damage and the only 3 weapons left for that role would be scepter and main hand axe / mace (if they are thrown) with scepter being the only one of them where one could reasonably expect a focus on mid range power AoE.

I still don't see any justification for your assertion here.

 

The distinction between a thief mainhand and a thief offhand is that an offhand brings three initiative spenders, while a mainhand brings two initiative spenders, an autoattack, and a sneak attack (assuming that mechanic remains in the elite specialisation). I see no reason why an offhand added to the existing mainhands would necessarily be better at support OR condi AoE than a mainhand weapon could be. Support autoattacks exist in the game, and the staff mirage equivalent of sneak attacks now has a potent support effect added as well, so there's no reason a mainhand weapon can't offer good support (in fact, it's more likely to be able to continue granting support even if initiative runs low).

 

So let's consider what you can combine it with for support roles. A mainhand could be combined with offhand dagger and offhand pistol. Neither really lock you into a role. Dancing Dagger is pretty much a little bit of condi, a little bit of soft CC, and a decent power coefficient - doesn't really lock you into a role, doesn't bring support on its own, but if you have it on a support build, you can spend your initiative elsewhere. C&D has a decent power coefficient, but is mostly there for stealth, so what it really does depends on what the sneak attack does. Pistol, meanwhile, is pretty much all CC, although you can get stealth out of combos, and if scepter/pistol has a blast finisher, you could get group stealth without having to have a shortbow as your other weapon.

 

On the face of it, neither directly contributes to support, but the same is true for existing mainhand weapons. I think the only one that can be said to contribute to support at all is sword through using its shadowsteps to trigger Shadow Arts traits. So there's no reason to think that some future mainhand weapon combined with dagger or pistol would be inherently worse than an offhand combined with dagger, pistol, or sword. Heck, if scepter had a supportive sneak attack, and scepter/pistol had a suitable finisher so the smoke field could be used to access stealth, then the offhand can meaningfully contribute to the support of the mainhand weapon, which is more than can be said for the existing mainhand weapons combined with a supportive offhand.

 

When it comes to conditions:

 

Sword is pure power. Dagger 2 and the sneak attack are both pure power, with a little bit of condition damage in the later part of an autoattack chain that still has decent power coefficients. Pistol auto and sneak are both hybrid, applying bleeding but also having respectable power coefficients. The truth is that no existing thief weapon really commits to conditions. Similar to non-firebrand burn guardians, what makes a condi thief is traits, utility skills, and, of course, gear stats, not the weapons they wield - I've even seen condi thieves use sword (nominally a pure power weapon) for the mobility.

 

Of course, power is also a distinct possibility. Ultimately, scepter can be whatever ArenaNet thinks it needs to be.

 

As for the "think about future elite specs!" argument... I don't think that really matters. Path of Fire released two years, give or take a couple of months, after Heart of Thorns. End of Dragons would have been four years after Path of Fire if it hadn't been delayed, and a February release date puts it closer to four and a half. An optimistic prediction is that we might see another set of elite specialisations somewhere around the end of 2023. And that might not be one of the offhands your imagining - it could be axe (potentially thrown like ranger), mace (most likely a CC set), or satisfying the people who want greatsword or offhand sword. They could potentially get to the point where they move on to another project before they get around to giving torch, focus, or warhorn to thief, especially given that torch and warhorn aren't really compatible with being sneaky, and considering that a lot of impetus towards focus was for a magic thief and scepter will probably achieve that just as well. I don't think it's reasonable to limit a present elite spec based on what a future elite spec might do years down the proverbial track. If the current elite spec is supportive, and ArenaNet decides to make another supportive elite spec further down the line, they can make it support in a different manner to the current elite spec. 

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

To be honest, my main fear is that it's gonna be useless everywhere. If it turns out to be so good it's meta in fractals/raids or in WvW group play then i can probably forgive anything it fails at on the WvW roaming or PvP front. 

I think you're looking at things the "wrong" way.

First, it won't be "so good" that it's meta in WvW, fractal and raid. In there it's a competition of efficiency and every role is already thoroughly fulfilled there now, having a spec that can overtake that would be gamebreaking.

The way you should look at it is thinking about what it can provide. Personally, I like to think that the scepter will provide splash damage on the AA, maybe a "well" with the "dark" attribute insteadof the classic "smoke" attribute and a variety of AoE via it's other skills for some ranged AoE/cleaving gameplay. A less cumbersome shortbow if you will, less reliant on ground targeted skills, with, maybe, magic projectile/missile/effects that track their target instead.

I expect the utilities to provide some mobility via shadowstep/teleport with a shorter CD and range than what the current utilities provide (maybe with 2-3 charges on these skills). That would compensate for the shortbow cost on infiltrator arrow and it could promote a healing gameplay through shadow savior (but not only, you could have new traits that ride on shadowsteps to deliver their effects the same way that shadow savior propose but with a totally different purpose). Add to this some "shadow barrier" or/and the ability to grant regeneration without having to steal it and you could achieve a decent healer with a bit of boon support via trickery.

In other word, I expect the e-spec to provide some amount of QoL in gameplays that are "minor" on the current thief.

[Vecuu.2018]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:51 PM, Legion.4198 said:

I guess it is a master of shadows, heavily inspired by demonic Oni that uses offensive shadowstep abilities and shadow magic. I wonder if the main mechanic will Shadow Form or some form Shadow Theft/Siphon.

 

That's my dream. Basically something between Core Necro f1 and GW1 Shadow Form.

[itspomf.9523]

On 10/2/2021 at 12:51 PM, Legion.4198 said:

I guess it is a master of shadows, heavily inspired by demonic Oni that uses offensive shadowstep abilities and shadow magic. I wonder if the main mechanic will Shadow Form or some form Shadow Theft/Siphon.

 

Actually no, the Oni don't have Shadow Form, they have Shadow Shroud, stealth, and dagger attacks.  Shadow Shroud prevents a target from receiving enchantments for a brief duration.

 

Ran into that one myself while trying to figure out what this new elite spec is going to do, and insofar I'm completely unsure -- and I highly doubt ANet would give us a boon-steal / corruption build when the latter was already Scourge's thing.

 

I am hoping for Shadow Form, though, if only to have better, active defenses, and if scepter manages to have non-projectile AOE ranged attacks, it'd finally fill a massive niche in Thief's repertoire, since shortbow isn't particularly grand (and I say this as someone who has used one off and on since launch).

[TwiceDead.1963]

On 10/2/2021 at 9:13 PM, AikijinX.6258 said:

 that scepter has a spike /blade on it. It’ll be a bonk stick.

I don't get this. WHY is it a bonk-stick when MACES exist? This makes no goddamn sense.

Not jabbing at what you're saying, just questioning the decision to give us a bonk-stick SCEPTER when Maces are right there.

Unless it's not a bonk-stick and the spike is just for show.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

I don't get this. WHY is it a bonk-stick when MACES exist? This makes no goddamn sense.

Not jabbing at what you're saying, just questioning the decision to give us a bonk-stick SCEPTER when Maces are right there.

Unless it's not a bonk-stick and the spike is just for show.

It's the fairly common "clawlike structure containing an orb" scepter appearance, which it has in common with the Wayward Wand, Lidless Eye, and probably a number of others. Pretty sure it's not another bonk stick. If they wanted it to be a fancy axe, it'd be an axe.

[AikijinX.6258]

On 10/3/2021 at 7:29 AM, AikijinX.6258 said:

My guess is that since there  is a blade on the scepter, my theory is: As we melee our foes we collect blood on the tip of the blade which then drips down to the ball or sphere portion of the scepter, which is then imbued with blood magic. So every time we hit, melee, and kill an enemy we collect blood which drips and turns into blood magic, which we can use for some type of new f1 form or something or possibly it offers us boons. But I’m more so liking the blood magic cloak or blood magic coat type of idea: Where this coat gives us maybe 70% damage reduction while out of stealth or something crazy.

 

8 hours ago, TwiceDead.1963 said:

I don't get this. WHY is it a bonk-stick when MACES exist? This makes no goddamn sense.

Not jabbing at what you're saying, just questioning the decision to give us a bonk-stick SCEPTER when Maces are right there.

Unless it's not a bonk-stick and the spike is just for show.

Above was my reasoning/theory

[Jumpel.3972]

11 hours ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

Ran into that one myself while trying to figure out what this new elite spec is going to do, and insofar I'm completely unsure -- and I highly doubt ANet would give us a boon-steal / corruption build when the latter was already Scourge's thing.

 E-spec actually bring things from other prof. So boon corrup can be possible

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 10/4/2021 at 8:48 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think you're looking at things the "wrong" way.

First, it won't be "so good" that it's meta in WvW, fractal and raid. In there it's a competition of efficiency and every role is already thoroughly fulfilled there now, having a spec that can overtake that would be gamebreaking.

The way you should look at it is thinking about what it can provide. Personally, I like to think that the scepter will provide splash damage on the AA, maybe a "well" with the "dark" attribute insteadof the classic "smoke" attribute and a variety of AoE via it's other skills for some ranged AoE/cleaving gameplay. A less cumbersome shortbow if you will, less reliant on ground targeted skills, with, maybe, magic projectile/missile/effects that track their target instead.

I expect the utilities to provide some mobility via shadowstep/teleport with a shorter CD and range than what the current utilities provide (maybe with 2-3 charges on these skills). That would compensate for the shortbow cost on infiltrator arrow and it could promote a healing gameplay through shadow savior (but not only, you could have new traits that ride on shadowsteps to deliver their effects the same way that shadow savior propose but with a totally different purpose). Add to this some "shadow barrier" or/and the ability to grant regeneration without having to steal it and you could achieve a decent healer with a bit of boon support via trickery.

In other word, I expect the e-spec to provide some amount of QoL in gameplays that are "minor" on the current thief.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of. A spec that has QoL and flavour, but no substance when it comes to meta builds in any mode.

Edit: I'll elaborate a bit. If the new spec isn't going to compete with meta specs in PvE to the point that it has a slot in endgame content, the only thing it will be competing against is daredevil and deadeye in WvW/PvP. I don't see another spec being as good for decap as daredevil in PvP, or for solo roaming as deadeye in WvW unless it somehow has a mechanic that shuts down those two classes. So unless it can compete with those specs in those modes, it's gonna get eaten by them instead and basically have no use anywhere. If that's the case, I don't really see a reason to get excited. 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, AikijinX.6258 said:

 

Above was my reasoning/theory

It's reasoning that falls down as soon as you remember that there's nothing preventing the elite specialisation from using any other scepter in the game. No existing elite specialisation weapon is used in a way where the skills involved only makes sense when specifically using the skin that came with the elite specialisation.