Meet the virtuoso

[Me Games Ma.3024]

Numbers are going to change. What's not likely to change is design and here's what I like and don't like on the design. (This again is from a PvE perspective)

 

Minor Traits:

• Vulnerability on blade crit is just a lazy design and it does not play well into the rest of the virtuoso's abilities. Many players here have compared virtuoso to "Domination X Dueling" but this is the only trait that I see interacting like a domination trait. It also is the only place where virtuoso has the word Vulnerability in any of it's traits making the placement of Vulnerability feel very off to me.
• Better fury & Vit->Ferocity: I won't say I dislike it because mesmer has needed this. However I suspect this to only count for the mesmer's fury and not to our phantasms! If that's the case this trait is borderline useless. We're always trying to make our phantasms have 100% crit not just ourselves (guess what we don't even know Sigil of Accuracy exists).

 

Major Adept:

• Aegis on Bladesongs:  I like to see a defensive option for traits. The design is not very original but I like it!
• Damage increase while close: I feel like they just included this because they know that virtuoso has to keep up with power chronomancer. Again not very interesting design since we'll stay melee anyways but something that is needed.
• Bleed on blade crit: This is a trait I don't see fitting. Keep in mind that the only weapon skills that will apply to this are dagger skills. So if we want to use this as build around and to be honest this is the only trait that applies damaging conditions, we are forced into dagger. Scepter/Staff/Sword/Greatsword are not an option! We're also required to have 100% crit chance to make this proc reliably so Condi Virtuoso is forced into 100% crit and dagger already. This is very narrow space to get creative with builds!

Major Master:

• Fury and Quickness on Evade or Block: I like it. Really this trait looks cool. It's clearly not for your dps build but I really enjoy the design space of block&dodge.
• Phantasms throw blades & grant Fury: This feels weird. Sure it's a damage increase so we'll take it as power Virtuosos but it just feels uninspired. Another trait that "just hits".
• F2 grants fury & Fury boosts expertise: I don't like this at all. Again: Why are we mixing up conditions and crits? Aside from Sharper Images and the new Jagged Mind we don't have ANY reason to go for crits in our condition builds. Sure as condition Virtuoso we'll take the 10% duration but why does it exist on fury?

Major Grandmaster:

• Shoot a blade at Block/Dodge: Again nothing for DPS I suppose. However this is once again one of these traits that will break your stealth unwillingly! I do not like this design at all. Make it anything else but an attack. 
• Slowly gain 3 blades for free: So in theory this looks bad already. We're going to use our skills to create blades. This will never get to make 3 blades. Never.
• Gain blades on bleeds & bleed deals more damage: I love this one. I said I wouldn't go into numbers but this one is amazing in it's current state. Since we're always in dueling here's the table for 100% critchance:
  Sword: 9 Hits:       2.8 blades per use
  Focus: 12 Hits:      3.4 blades per use
  Pistol:  8 Hits:        2.6 blades per use
  The bleed damage increase is a nice touch this is definetly the way to generate a lot of blades on your Virtuoso (Power and Condi)

 

Skills:

Generally I like the skills a lot however there should be a lot more ways to apply damaging conditions since we got a whole row of traits for condition Virtuoso which I don't see represented in our skills! There are only 2 tooltips for Virtuoso that include damaging conditions. This is terrible especially since the Bleed trait essentially locks us into dagger!
 

• Dagger 1: It's fine flat damage and a bunch of hits on 3rd attack. Completely depends on the damage values. (The only place where I see good synergy to the bleed trait.
• Dagger 2: This one I really like. It looks cool generates a blade and seems to be hitting hard.
• Dagger 3: Looks amazing, has a lot of cleave, I love it. This is something mesmer has needed in forever. Especially the fact that the AoE is not bound to a target (looking at you pBerserker)
• Heal: Cool heal we'll still use Signet for our phantasms cooldowns.
• Blade Renewal: This is going to be our prestacking skill #1 no application in combat since we got enough ways to generate blades.
  Rain of Swords: Again something mesmer has needed. A strong skill that just deals a lot of aoe damage. This is what well of calamity should have been. 
• Sword of Decimation: I like it. The root is cool to keep stuff in the Rain and dagger AoEs
• Psychic Force: I can see why this got a long cooldown but I would have loved it made mesmer viable for push mechanics (like Desmina's Golems)
• Thousand Cuts: I like that we get a bursty skill as elite. Very narrow design but if the damage numbers are right this is amazing. However since we've already seen them tune down the numbers I'm not getting my hopes up for this one. Still this is our pick for dps builds.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Heika.5403 said:

Clones often take the agro, only that already helps.  I often put them between me and my enemies so they act as barriers taking the hits from enemies that have single target attacks so even if they are ranged don't reach me if they hit the clones.

Sometimes, yes. I said "unreliable", not "useless". Sometimes, you can get the enemy stuck on your clones and basically be in no danger yourself. Other times, they come straight for you regardless of how many clones you have out and they do nothing. In the context of a non-mesmer player like @Teratus.2859 coming into Mesmer, though, they won't be used to having clones draw aggro anyway (unless they're coming off another profession which can generate an equivalent decoy), so they won't miss it.

18 hours ago, Heika.5403 said:

 You don't have to deal with proyectiles if you use weapons not based in projectiles.  Something i always do in WvW.  In PvP i can careless, i use shortbow in my renegade in its a really good weapon.

Yeah, some professions have ranged attacks that don't use projectiles... but that's missing my point that all professions have projectiles, so someone coming into mesmer from another profession is already going to know to be aware of the downsides of projectiles (and casting times). Basically, Virtuoso trades the complication of keeping your clones alive and in suitable locations to trigger shatters - a complication that's fairly unique to mesmer - for the complication of projectile attacks with an activation time, a complication that any GW2 player should be familiar with. Which is not to say that blades are better, just that they have a different set of complications that would be more familiar to someone who's new to mesmer.

[rylien.3824]

 

I am very skeptical about the virtuoso personally : I have the impression that the mechanisms are sloppy, or not in connection with the idea of telekinesis and "bladesong". It is badly done. I would have preferred that they were based on the resonance at that time, like the crystals with Aurène. Each F1-F2, etc ... would bring a "song", with the crystalline blades ...
It would have been much more interesting from my point of view.

 

https://youtu.be/JLfbVK4bJD0?t=287

 

With gameplay that would look more like a mix of this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0KGOTz4dn0&ab_channel=Dulfy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgYlgNpbz1E&ab_channel=SpaceCats

 

 

I'm so disappointed with the possibilities they had and the mess they made ... 😒

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, rylien.3824 said:

 

I am very skeptical about the virtuoso personally : I have the impression that the mechanisms are sloppy, or not in connection with the idea of telekinesis and "bladesong". It is badly done. I would have preferred that they were based on the resonance at that time, like the crystals with Aurène. Each F1-F2, etc ... would bring a "song", with the crystalline blades ...
It would have been much more interesting from my point of view.

 

https://youtu.be/JLfbVK4bJD0?t=287

 

With gameplay that would look more like a mix of this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0KGOTz4dn0&ab_channel=Dulfy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgYlgNpbz1E&ab_channel=SpaceCats

 

 

I'm so disappointed with the possibilities they had and the mess they made ... 😒

 

kitten that looks cool! And has mobility to boot up! Instead of this static twirl to shoot wet noodles spec.
There is also irelia from dota who is kind of similar but also cooler (at least according to the trailer, I've never played the game).

Edited August 14, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Teratus.2859]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sometimes, yes. I said "unreliable", not "useless". Sometimes, you can get the enemy stuck on your clones and basically be in no danger yourself. Other times, they come straight for you regardless of how many clones you have out and they do nothing. In the context of a non-mesmer player like @Teratus.2859 coming into Mesmer, though, they won't be used to having clones draw aggro anyway (unless they're coming off another profession which can generate an equivalent decoy), so they won't miss it.

I'm not new to Mesmer, I have two of them 😛
I'm just not that into the class in Gw2 like I am with some other classes 🙂

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, AXLIB.8425 said:

being able to put out 39k dps is bad?

Yes if it requires you to be stationary in an action combat game. It doesnt even pierce which means that it is currently the worst build you can bring into fractals by a long shot. The only content where it works is wvsw to kill unsuspecting players that are checking inventory or something and stupid mechanics like pillar kite in w7 where you dont have to move and get all boons anyways.

It can only work on braindead content that doesn't require you to move. Such content should not exist in an action combat mmo in the first place.

[aymnad.9023]

A good amount of traits seems to be duplicates of the core traits which is really weird... There are defensive traits for PvP and with mesmer base defense it is not going to be a glasscanon unless you build  for it (which is what a lot of us guessed but strangely some players thought that the spec would be defenseless).  All especs try to give different playstyles but condi feels a bit out of place here (even if it could be good). 

 

When they started showing the traits one of my first thought was they want to make it compete with chrono. While it does not have the boon generation / cc of chrono it has higher modifiers, the possibility to stack blades before a fight, decent defense which will make it find a spot in every game mode.

Edited August 14, 2021 by aymnad.9023

[AXLIB.8425]

just got a new thought, the duplicate trait on virtuoso might just mean they are removing those core trait so it will only on virtuoso. I somehow find it more likely that they are willing to address the duplicate trait line of virtuoso not by actually reworking the trait line, but just removing from core...

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I'm not new to Mesmer, I have two of them 😛
I'm just not that into the class in Gw2 like I am with some other classes 🙂

My mistake. Point still stands, though - if having to rely on clones, with all the strengths and weaknesses they have, is a barrier for some people, Virtuoso removes that barrier. The shatters having a cast time and being projectiles creates new issues that clones don't have, but these are issues that players should already be familiar with.

[Salt Mode.3780]

54 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

My mistake. Point still stands, though - if having to rely on clones, with all the strengths and weaknesses they have, is a barrier for some people, Virtuoso removes that barrier. The shatters having a cast time and being projectiles creates new issues that clones don't have, but these are issues that players should already be familiar with.

Its because instead of fixing some of the problems with clones they will just go with the general line of on cast casters, which will make mesmer no different then the next caster class but with different visuals. Nothing right now that virtuoso offers is greater then what a perhaps a staff ele can offer.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its because instead of fixing some of the problems with clones they will just go with the general line of on cast casters, which will make mesmer no different then the next caster class but with different visuals. Nothing right now that virtuoso offers is greater then what a perhaps a staff ele can offer.

Is that really such a problem? There are only so many roles in the game, and not every elite spec can be something revolutionary. Dealing with large numbers of enemies has been a weakness of mesmer pretty much since clone death traits were nixed (with chronomancer and certain mirage builds being a bit better, but only so much) - I don't think it's a bad thing to have an elite specialisation that provides a suitable option for those situations just because it's something that other professions can do. There are already story instances that are harder to do with mesmer than with other professions because those instances assume you have means to take down a lot of enemies at once and, well, mesmer.

 

You can do it, but I'm pretty sure it'll turn out to be a lot easier to tackle that sort of thing with Virtuoso.

 

The problems with clones that virtuoso seems intended to bypass are intended design behaviours of clones. They can be killed, and they automatically die when their target dies. Mirage introduced a redirection mechanic, but I don't think those are issues that are ever likely to be "fixed" because ArenaNet doesn't consider them to be broken in the first place. Virtuoso provides an alternative, but the alternative is intended to be a sidegrade rather than an upgrade, so it brings its own issues.

 

If you think clones are still going to be better for a particular piece of content, nobody's forcing you to use Virtuoso.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Is that really such a problem? There are only so many roles in the game, and not every elite spec can be something revolutionary. Dealing with large numbers of enemies has been a weakness of mesmer pretty much since clone death traits were nixed (with chronomancer and certain mirage builds being a bit better, but only so much) - I don't think it's a bad thing to have an elite specialisation that provides a suitable option for those situations just because it's something that other professions can do. There are already story instances that are harder to do with mesmer than with other professions because those instances assume you have means to take down a lot of enemies at once and, well, mesmer.

 

You can do it, but I'm pretty sure it'll turn out to be a lot easier to tackle that sort of thing with Virtuoso.

 

The problems with clones that virtuoso seems intended to bypass are intended design behaviours of clones. They can be killed, and they automatically die when their target dies. Mirage introduced a redirection mechanic, but I don't think those are issues that are ever likely to be "fixed" because ArenaNet doesn't consider them to be broken in the first place. Virtuoso provides an alternative, but the alternative is intended to be a sidegrade rather than an upgrade, so it brings its own issues.

 

If you think clones are still going to be better for a particular piece of content, nobody's forcing you to use Virtuoso.

Lol what you are saying is no one is forcing anyone to play mesmer is as simple as no one is forcing me to use Virtuoso. The fact that they made Virtuoso this basic for the very purpose of allowing people to learn mesmer when in reality isnt the case and is a bad excuse for making the class the way it is. Virtuoso isn't addressing any issues of a mesmer but a compilation of what people don't want while verses a mesmer. 

 

Having to cast, forcing dodge to make skills viable and yes I'm talking about the quickness, and the thing is the one trait that could literally rip apart Virtuoso is getting Aegis on shatter, if they put a ICD on that Virtuoso will be absolute garbage and that one trait is the ONLY saving grace. Again this is ALL competitive gameplay (sPvP, WvW) NOT PvE because again anything works in PvE ESPECIALLY open world.

 

My favorite post so far:

"Well we know that several skills have already been nerfed.

We know its a ranged focused spec in a game where Melee does more damage.

We know that the guy showing it off was talking about how every one of the mediocre traits were too powerful and might need nerfing.

We know that the guy showing it off laughed at how badly Mirage got nerfed by removing a dodge.

And we know that they claim to want feedback on the specs."

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Teratus.2859]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

My mistake. Point still stands, though - if having to rely on clones, with all the strengths and weaknesses they have, is a barrier for some people, Virtuoso removes that barrier. The shatters having a cast time and being projectiles creates new issues that clones don't have, but these are issues that players should already be familiar with.

Agreed.

Personally i've not been a fan of the clone mechanic so i'm looking forward to seeing how the blades work.
For me playing a Virtuoso is entirely about the blades theme.
Unless thief gets OH Sword with their new spec the Mesmer will remain the only non heavy class with duel swords.
I just want to play a light armour bladesman 🙂 Virtuoso atm is looking really good for this, specially with all these blade skills and the changes to clones etc.

[Orack.9756]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Agreed.

Personally i've not been a fan of the clone mechanic so i'm looking forward to seeing how the blades work.
For me playing a Virtuoso is entirely about the blades theme.
Unless thief gets OH Sword with their new spec the Mesmer will remain the only non heavy class with duel swords.
I just want to play a light armour bladesman 🙂 Virtuoso atm is looking really good for this, specially with all these blade skills and the changes to clones etc.

 

You missed the new guardian Elit. 2 sword and all about rush. Look fun tbh, but I think thief player gonna cry in a corner :x

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Orack.9756 said:

 

You missed the new guardian Elit. 2 sword and all about rush. Look fun tbh, but I think thief player gonna cry in a corner :x

Naw that person wants the RP life of cloth class duel wielding swords and go slash slash.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Lol what you are saying is no one is forcing anyone to play mesmer is as simple as no one is forcing me to use Virtuoso. The fact that they made Virtuoso this basic for the very purpose of allowing people to learn mesmer when in reality isnt the case and is a bad excuse for making the class the way it is. Virtuoso isn't addressing any issues of a mesmer but a compilation of what people don't want while verses a mesmer. 

If you want to complete a particular task on your mesmer character - a story instance, say - then yes, you are forced to play mesmer. And it'll be handy to have an option that doesn't have a reliance on clones for instances where clones won't help you much.

 

I don't think that Virtuoso is explicitly made to help people learn mesmer, but instead to provide a different way of playing mesmer - however, it just so happens that this different way involves making it a bit more like other professions in terms of what it takes to understand how to play it rather than having its own unique complications like core mesmer does. The analogy I made earlier was with Tempest - it's designed to reward a playstyle that stays in one attunement for quite a bit longer than the experienced elementalist players did at the time. Which the experienced elementalist players complained about because it wasn't enhancing their playstyle, but it did offer new options and, incidentally, it helped other players get into the profession.

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 

Having to cast, forcing dodge to make skills viable and yes I'm talking about the quickness, and the thing is the one trait that could literally rip apart Virtuoso is getting Aegis on shatter, if they put a ICD on that Virtuoso will be absolute garbage and that one trait is the ONLY saving grace. Again this is ALL competitive gameplay (sPvP, WvW) NOT PvE because again anything works in PvE ESPECIALLY open world.

So you're thinking purely through a competitive lens? That's your prerogative, but it doesn't mean that it's the only lens to look at. Making something better in a mode you don't play is still a valid choice for ArenaNet to make. And even then, while I don't play in WvW zergs myself, I do keep hearing about how clones are basically worthless there, so maybe that's what Virtuoso is intended to address? Take away the clones, give it extra area damage, and it starts looking a lot better off in that environment.

 

I do feel like part of the problem here is that people are possibly pinning too many hopes on one elite specialisation. Which is kinda ArenaNet's fault, given that it's been about four years since the last set of elite specialisations was released. If they go back to a more expansion-focused model, we may be looking at a half-life between expansions being more like 2 years, which would lower the stakes on any one.

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

 

My favorite post so far:

"Well we know that several skills have already been nerfed.

We know its a ranged focused spec in a game where Melee does more damage.

We know that the guy showing it off was talking about how every one of the mediocre traits were too powerful and might need nerfing.

We know that the guy showing it off laughed at how badly Mirage got nerfed by removing a dodge.

And we know that they claim to want feedback on the specs."

Okay, there's a distinction to be made here between saying that the entire design principle is wrong, and expecting fair treatment from the balance team.

 

In principle, the design of Virtuoso is valid. You don't like it, sure, but not every elite specialisation for your favourite profession has to be designed for you specifically.

 

Whether it'll be balanced properly in competitive modes... ahahaah. ArenaNet has never got enough of a handle on mesmer to balance it properly. I'm not expecting that to change any time soon.

[Teratus.2859]

10 minutes ago, Orack.9756 said:

 

You missed the new guardian Elit. 2 sword and all about rush. Look fun tbh, but I think thief player gonna cry in a corner :x

I saw it ^^
I've been calling it a heavy armour thief lol

I would much prefer if it had been a thief spec tbh, there are some serious Gw1 assassin vibes coming from it which is just nuts because Guardian already has so many Monk and Paragon elements to it already.
Feels quite out of place on the Guardian but it still looks fun re"Guard"less..... sorry xD

I think the virtuoso is a bit more in line with the light armour blademaster that I want but we'll see.
I plan on playing both of these specs at some point though, the only one I am not to keen on so far is the Necro's new spec.

[Salt Mode.3780]

16 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

If you want to complete a particular task on your mesmer character - a story instance, say - then yes, you are forced to play mesmer. And it'll be handy to have an option that doesn't have a reliance on clones for instances where clones won't help you much.

 

I don't think that Virtuoso is explicitly made to help people learn mesmer, but instead to provide a different way of playing mesmer - however, it just so happens that this different way involves making it a bit more like other professions in terms of what it takes to understand how to play it rather than having its own unique complications like core mesmer does. The analogy I made earlier was with Tempest - it's designed to reward a playstyle that stays in one attunement for quite a bit longer than the experienced elementalist players did at the time. Which the experienced elementalist players complained about because it wasn't enhancing their playstyle, but it did offer new options and, incidentally, it helped other players get into the profession.

So you're thinking purely through a competitive lens? That's your prerogative, but it doesn't mean that it's the only lens to look at. Making something better in a mode you don't play is still a valid choice for ArenaNet to make. And even then, while I don't play in WvW zergs myself, I do keep hearing about how clones are basically worthless there, so maybe that's what Virtuoso is intended to address? Take away the clones, give it extra area damage, and it starts looking a lot better off in that environment.

 

I do feel like part of the problem here is that people are possibly pinning too many hopes on one elite specialisation. Which is kinda ArenaNet's fault, given that it's been about four years since the last set of elite specialisations was released. If they go back to a more expansion-focused model, we may be looking at a half-life between expansions being more like 2 years, which would lower the stakes on any one.

Okay, there's a distinction to be made here between saying that the entire design principle is wrong, and expecting fair treatment from the balance team.

 

In principle, the design of Virtuoso is valid. You don't like it, sure, but not every elite specialisation for your favourite profession has to be designed for you specifically.

 

Whether it'll be balanced properly in competitive modes... ahahaah. ArenaNet has never got enough of a handle on mesmer to balance it properly. I'm not expecting that to change any time soon.

Again a long list of nonsense to make sense of something that isnt there.

 

1. Story never forces you to play a specific class so I dont know what this is coming from aside from probably people who roleplay in the game in that case thats on the player itself.

 

2. The tempest is a bad comparison because at the end of the day it has its core functions of attuning to different attunements they didn't remove the aspects of removing different elements for the class. 

 

3. No this isn't just in the lens of competitive because the fact that MANY of the Virtuoso traits are repeats of other traits from other traitlines. Again I'll say PvE doesn't matter as much in regards to traitline but competitive does. Zerging isn't the only thing that happens in WvW but the fact that you mentioned that kinda gave me the clue what kinda player you are to begin with and why you say the  things you do.  No true mesmer mains ever complained about the clones and needing it to be removed rather get a fix on it. Back before the clones got massive HP nerfs it was never an issue ONLY an issue to players who fought against mesmers.

 

4. Why do people put so much hope towards mesmers well for one mesmers have been consistently nerfed in each spec whether its Chrono or Mirage with NO buffs in other areas. The high hopes comes in where maybe a new spec where devs actually listen to actual mesmer players get ideas in what mesmer needs fixing, instead they listen to those who complain about fighting against mesmers and removing the problematic areas people have issues fighting against mesmers. 

 

Lastly the quote I put was there because there is no surprise that ANET is bias towards mesmers, over the 9 years of history mesmers have been consistently nerfed over and over again with actual traits removed while inputting fillers. If people actually took the time to compare different class traits you will see how plain and sad mesmer traits actually are. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Orack.9756]

3 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I saw it ^^
I've been calling it a heavy armour thief lol

I would much prefer if it had been a thief spec tbh, there are some serious Gw1 assassin vibes coming from it which is just nuts because Guardian already has so many Monk and Paragon elements to it already.
Feels quite out of place on the Guardian but it still looks fun re"Guard"less..... sorry xD

I think the virtuoso is a bit more in line with the light armour blademaster that I want but we'll see.
I plan on playing both of these specs at some point though, the only one I am not to keen on so far is the Necro's new spec.

 

Tbh I pretty much agree, while the spec look fun I also feel it should've been thief or warrior, not guardian.

[Levetty.1279]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

with chronomancer and certain mirage builds being a bit better, but only so much

And Chronomancer and those certain mirage builds will still be a lot better at it.

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

NOT PvE because again anything works in PvE ESPECIALLY open world.

Virtuoso won't due to the fact it will be outclassed in every way by Chrono and Mirage.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

And Chronomancer and those certain mirage builds will still be a lot better at it.

Dagger has a lot of area attacks. Pair it with Torch as an offhand, you've basically got every attack affecting an area. Now, greatsword and staff give some capabilities in this area (and would be good as a weaponswap), but they're not really designed for it.

 

F1 and F2 pierce. More importantly, daggers don't disappear when your target dies, so if you're in one of those situations where targets (or clones) are often dying within a few seconds of targeting them, you'll actually get to use them (ideally on a distant target so they have the chance to go through others). Technically speaking, if you DO get clones off, core F1 and F2 are AoE, but if you can't get any to survive long enough to matter, you're left with dry shatters. F4 is a PBAoE. 

 

You've then got three area utility skills you can potentially throw.

 

Comparatively:

 

Chronomancer has wells. Which makes them better for AoE situations than core mesmer, but they don't do a lot of damage until the final pulse.

 

Mirage adds a bit of extra AoE on greatsword and staff ambushes. Which is awesome when you can maintain your clones, but a lot less effective when you can't. Crystal Sands is a decent AoE utility, but if Virtuoso can't beat that, they've done something wrong.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Countless' theorycrafted build :
 

 

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And it'll be handy to have an option that doesn't have a reliance on clones for instances where clones won't help you much.

 

Illusions haven't been a problem for story content since the Phantasm rework. Why does it feel like everybody who defends this spec doesn't actually play Mesmer?

 

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

In principle, the design of Virtuoso is valid.

It is literally the only elite spec that doesn't have a new mechanic, the entire point of elite specs.

 

 

[Levetty.1279]

52 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dagger has a lot of area attacks. Pair it with Torch as an offhand, you've basically got every attack affecting an area.

Yes lets pair our condi pbaoe with our power ranged weapon off to a good start.

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 but they're not really designed for it.

Greatsword is literally designed for it.

53 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

F1 and F2 pierce.

Core, Chrono and Mirage F1 and F2 are Aoe, which is better for aoe then pierce. 

54 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Technically speaking, if you DO get clones off, core F1 and F2 are AoE, but if you can't get any to survive long enough to matter, you're left with dry shatters. 

3 clone shatters are easy to get off in PvE. 1 - 2 clone shatters are easy to get off in open world where things are dying as fast as you say and 2 clone shatters do more damage then 5 blade shatters.

57 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Mirage adds a bit of extra AoE on greatsword 

This 'bit of extra' AoE is by far the best aoe tagging in the game. Dagger with its noodle auto attack and snail 3 attack aren't coming close to competing.

 

To recap:

Tougher enemies: You have to go out of your way to do shatters at less then 3 clones.

AoE down trash mobs: 1-2 clone shatters are easy to pull off and do more damage with more aoe then Virtuoso. 3 clone shatters aren't needed but can be done. Mirage Axe, Greatsword and Staff pierce and cleave like crazy. Greatsword hits harder and faster then Dagger.

AoE Tagging: Mirage has it beat.