Necro Elite Spec: The Harbinger

[DraconusShade.4590]

I feel like people are overreacting a little bit. In PvE there is little issue with this and in PvP I definitely see the problem but we must also realise that it's a beta, with the amount of boon support they offer and for the amount of damage they might have thought the punishing shroud mechanics may have been necessary but I'm sure they'll be tuned down.

[SummonMinion.7306]

1 hour ago, azarhal.3086 said:

My take, they wanted to punish Necro for having Shroud, but didn't know what to do so they tripled on the punishments:

- Shroud decay while not in it

- Lose HP pool max while in Shroud or drinking Elixir for a max of 50% reduction to your HP pool

- Shroud doesn't make it so life-force take damage instead of health while in it

 

What the Harbinger gained from that:

- a potential max 25 damage boost once they reach 50% HP pool reduction (%1 per Blight stack, there is a power and condi version, I'm not sure why they didn't make a single trait for that)

- Shroud decay healing for a bit every seconds when not in Shroud (I'm not sure if healing while in Shroud is there or not).

- useless Elixirs that give you -10% HP pool for 25 seconds on usage, stack to -25% (it would make more sense to have the negative on the traits, not baseline currently).

 

It also seems like the devs who designed the e-spec aren't aware that Necro have zero blocks or invulnerability abilities and Harbinger isn't getting any..so that 11k HP pool isn't going to be that different than having 1 HP past Core Tyria content.

- LF generation in 1v1 is not great and while Harbinger has a bit more LF generation on its weapon, it doesn't look enough to counter the decay.

 

As it is, the trade-off isn't worth it.  That's not a glass canon, that's a corpse being carried around.

 

The pistol looks fun and the Shroud skills have potentials thought. I'm not sure about all the Torment, poison would have made more sense thematically.

I was hoping there would be more survivability tools baked into the utilities (aside from the elite). The only useful defensive boons we get from the non-elite elixirs are resolution and resistance. I was hoping for pulsing aegis or greater access to protection and stability outside of the elite skill to help with the massive tradeoff in survivability and large blight application on each utility.

 

When compared to other classes that spam boons out, it seems like these elixirs should've been AoE baseline. So many other classes can shart out boons with little to no effort without a mechanic punishing them or having to really sacrifice their survivability options. I honestly don't see the fair tradeoff between blight application and these lackluster elixirs. I see the tradeoff in the blight mechanic with a very powerful and damaging shroud. The shroud mechanic seems pretty well thought out but these utilities seem like they just got lazy and had an intern do it.

[LucianDK.8615]

16 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Mechanically the most interesting e-spec of the ones presented today. It looks like it could fill roles that Reapers and Scourges can't which is nice and I very excited about Harbinger Shroud. I'm a bit iffy when it comes to Quickness because Harbinger might still be able to bring (too much) damage. But CMCs comment sounds like this at least won't be a thing in PvP/WvW.

 

The only somewhat disappointing things are the Elixir. Unless one wants to share boons, they don't look too exciting.

Dont forget that necros have traditionally been a very selfish class. Having group utility is great!

[Rym.1469]

It certainly looks very different to all the previous versions of Necromancer. Instead of expanding health pool it actually reduces it. Blight - or reverse Barrier -  was a mechanic few others and even I  suggested in the past.

 

There's no big point in speculation since we're getting our hands on it in three days, but it is a lot more interesting than both Reaper and Scourge on release, mechanic-wise.

 

First impressions are this won't be played in sPvP before it gets some buffs (predicing cutting down Blight in half in PvP), it doesn't seem to get the usual tools like high evade uptime other glassy classes get and elixirs don't currently help defense-wise, maybe apart from that one that converts conditions. During Beta it will probably get mowed down quite a bit by the meta specs, including Core Necro. I can see it doing fine against the less mobile and non-ranged builds, but that's basically just Warrior and Reaper?

 

While other traits seem good, Grandmasters don't look too enticing, specifically the pulsing ones. They don't really do anything with the mechanic, they don't seem too well-thought (super glassy spec staying in melee?) and aren't interesting in general. These and Elixirs, which are looking very bland so far (oh, boons) could probably get a second pass. But looking forward to the Beta.

 

One thing I'm not that big of a fan of is that both this spec and Virtuoso (but the necro one to perhaps even bigger digree) try to accomodate three different playstyles within one Elite. We have enough Elites already not to cramp up everything into one, especially since they will be stepping on each other's toes. Power Harbinger might just invalidate Reaper in instanced PvE for example. Explore different avenues of one or two playstyles at most within one elite instead.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Rym.1469

[Wintermute.5408]

So let me get this straight.

 

We're getting the same garbage shroud locking us out of utilities and signets.

Our life force will  passively diminish each time we get damaged, converting to health. That might as well be "all the time", as necro still has 0 defense mechanisms.

Shroud doesn't block damage anymore. Our only protection doesn't exist.

Shroud actively reduces our maximum health. Which, as per tradition of shroud being garbage, still can't be healed.

 

I don't like to jump to pre-emptive conclusions. But what an utter piece of kitten this spec is going to be.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Obtena.7952]

This is actually pretty exciting in PVE because the potential to get into shroud and stay in shroud (because healing in shroud is now a thing) is very high. The biggest problem is deciding what way(s) you take to maintain LF and HP while in shroud. 

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Just now, Wintermute.5408 said:

Shroud actively reduces our maximum health. Which, as per tradition of shroud being garbage, still can't be healed.

You can be healed in Harbinger Shroud.  They stated such on stream.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Wintermute.5408]

4 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

You can be healed in Harbinger Shroud.  They stated such on stream.

You can't heal the blight.

 

I'm OK with blight. I can stomach shroud not shielding. But passive loss of LF can kitten right off. And at least give us utilities in that kitten.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

This is actually pretty exciting in PVE because the potential to get into shroud and stay in shroud (because healing in shroud is now a thing) is very high. The biggest problem is deciding what way(s) you take to maintain LF and HP while in shroud. 

Given you lose all utilities in Shroud, your options to regain life force are extremely limited.  You don't even have Master of Terror as an option unless you get lucky with Path of Corruption converting stability.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

You can't heal the blight.

You don't want to heal the blight ... it's not causing you damage. It's actually Anet creates as a benefit for DPS. 

 

6 minutes ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Given you lose all utilities in Shroud, your options to regain life force are extremely limited.  You don't even have Master of Terror as an option unless you get lucky with Path of Corruption converting stability.

Yeah .. I'm wondering if a Signets of Suffering trait nerf is incoming. That with Undeath Signet is 6 more seconds of Shroud on the base 20 seconds. But you are right ... I had not realized we yet again lose access to utilities in Shroud. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Rym.1469]

6 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

You can't heal the blight.

 

I'm OK with blight. I can stomach shroud not shielding. But passive loss of LF can kitten right off.

Group could counter Blight with Barriers for you probably.

[SummonMinion.7306]

9 minutes ago, Rym.1469 said:

It certainly looks very different to all the previous versions of Necromancer. Instead of expanding health pool it actually reduces it. Blight - or reverse Barrier -  was a mechanic few others and even I  suggested in the past.

 

There's no big point in speculation since we're getting our hands on it in three days, but it is a lot more interesting than both Reaper and Scourge on release, mechanic-wise.

 

First impressions are this won't be played in sPvP before it gets some buffs (predicing cutting down Blight in half in PvP), it doesn't seem to get the usual tools like high evade uptime other glassy classes get and elixirs don't currently help defense-wise, maybe apart from that one that converts conditions. During Beta it will probably get mowed down quite a bit by the meta specs, including Core Necro. I can see it doing fine against the less mobile and non-ranged builds, but that's basically just Warrior and Reaper?

 

While other traits seem good, Grandmasters don't look too enticing, specifically the pulsing ones. They don't really do anything with the mechanic, they don't seem too well-thought (super glassy spec staying in melee?) and aren't interesting in general. These and Elixirs, which are looking very bland so far (oh, boons) could probably get a second pass. But looking forward to the Beta.

I agree with you. This spec will be a monster in PVE like scourge but will probably be dead on arrival for PVP and WVW unless you plan on being babysat 24/7. In situations where you aren't simply button mashing against pre-programmed AI, this espec just doesn't have enough survivability tools to stand on its own.

[Wintermute.5408]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't want to heal the blight ... it's not causing you damage. It's actually Anet creates as a benefit for DPS. 

I feel we are getting lost in terminology here. Blight reduces the maximum health. That reduction, naturally, can't be healed up. To me that is very alike the non-healabale nature of classic shroud. You do get benefits for it in HS, but it's not like vanilla shroud is without benefits itself.

 

Frankly, I look and see classic shround in Harbinger, except worse. Having every downside of the shroud, yet stripped of very few (aka, single) redeeming quality of vanilla. I swear, Scourge is so popular just by virtue of not having shroud period. I just don't see how this is playable.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Asum.4960]

34 minutes ago, SummonMinion.7306 said:

I was hoping there would be more survivability tools baked into the utilities (aside from the elite). The only useful defensive boons we get from the non-elite elixirs are resolution and resistance. I was hoping for pulsing aegis or greater access to protection and stability outside of the elite skill to help with the massive tradeoff in survivability and large blight application on each utility.

 

When compared to other classes that spam boons out, it seems like these elixirs should've been AoE baseline. So many other classes can shart out boons with little to no effort without a mechanic punishing them or having to really sacrifice their survivability options. I honestly don't see the fair tradeoff between blight application and these lackluster elixirs. I see the tradeoff in the blight mechanic with a very powerful and damaging shroud. The shroud mechanic seems pretty well thought out but these utilities seem like they just got lazy and had an intern do it.

I don't really see it that bleak. 

With DM especially, you should be able to maintain perma Prot fairly comfortably with Corrupter's Fervor on both power and condi (or hybrid) variants, since both Pistol and Shroud are stated to have coefficients enabling both, and always have condi on them. 

Then you get stab on Shroud entry, which combined with the mobility and 900 range on everything could make for a fairly nasty ranged/kiting high damage, medium to high mobility class. Additionally, unless you are taking the Damage increase from Blight Traits, you really don't have much reason to stack up much Blight, so with proper management of  Shroud and Elixiers, you'll still be somewhat durable for that amount of range and mobility. 

That combined with a 5 condi cleanse as well as stun break with 20 second Traited Cool Downs and AoE Slow is pretty nice. 

With Eternal Life you'll have even more prot, and together with the Harbinger GM Minor, always 35% Shroud available for mobility and quick bursts before building up too much Blight. Alternatively BM with always active Siphons and Blood Bank for some Barrier Buffer.

 

That said, overall the Elixiers, both in Theme, efficacy and art are pretty underwhelming. Some of them I don't see a justification to ever use even if they didn't have the Blight on them (the Might and Fury one especially). 

 

Then again, Necro has a history of completely worthless elite spec Utilities (when was the last time you used a Reaper Shout outside of the Elite, esp. Nothing can Save you, or anyone ever seriously used Desiccate or Serpent Siphon).

Edited August 14, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Wintermute.5408 said:

I feel we are getting lost in terminology here. Blight reduces the maximum health. That reduction, naturally, can't be healed up. To me that is very alike the non-healabale nature of classic shroud. You do get benefits for it in HS, but it's not like vanilla shroud is without benefits itself.

 

Frankly, I look and see classic shround in Harbinger, except worse. Having every downside of the shroud, yet stripped of very few (aka, single) redeeming quality of vanilla. I swear, Scourge is so popular just by virtue of not having shroud period. yet here we are.

Right. That's fair on both counts. I agree with the sentiment you have with Scourge Shroud approach. I'm just naturally drawn to trying to think of ways to break things so for me, blight is EASILY broken as it's intended to break you for massive benefit. Shroud CD is still 10 seconds I think? That's 10 seconds where you get no value from Blight and are short some traits because they are focused on specifics of the espec with Blight or while in Shroud? 

 

I'm starting to come to the realization that there are some 'Berzerker-like' downfalls in this spec ... time for me to go think about that. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianDK.8615]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I don't really see it that bleak. 

With DM especially, you should be able to maintain perma Prot fairly comfortably with Corrupter's Fervor on both power and condi (or hybrid) variants, since both Pistol and Shroud are stated to have coefficients enabling both, and always have condi on them. 

Then you get stab on Shroud entry, which combined with the mobility and 900 range on everything could make for a fairly nasty high damage, medium to high mobility class. Additionally, unless you are taking the Damage increase from Blight Traits, you really don't have much reason to stack up much Blight, so with proper management of  Shroud and Elixiers, you'll still be somewhat durable for that amount of range and mobility. 

That combined with a 5 condi cleanse as well as stun break with 20 second Traited Cool Downs and AoE Slow is pretty nice. 

 

That said, overall the Elixiers, both in Theme, efficacy and art are pretty underwhelming. Some of them I don't see a justification to ever use even if they didn't have the Blight on them (the Might and Fury one especially). 

 

Then again, Necro has a history of completely worthless elite spec Utilities (when was the last time you used a Reaper Shout outside of the Elite, esp. Nothing can Save you, or anyone ever seriously used Serpent Siphon).

Rise is a pretty well used Reaper shout. But yes, one of the few ones.

[Rym.1469]

I think the general consensus will be that the Elixirs need to be spiced up a bit. I can see them being used to maintain high Blight levels in PvE for modifiers, but apart from that none is that exciting.

[Wintermute.5408]

Also, do note how the "healing" skill with health showcased heals for 1923, yet blights for 2200+. I have so many questions. Mostly starting with "why".

 

Do they really expect this to play from condi? With BiP still being mandatory, and being able to combo Scourge from full health in 2 casts left unattended (while also passivley diminishing HB lifeforce as a bonus)? Given how they changed Lingering curse just now, do they seriously expect Curses to be run here? Will necro suicide meta make its glorious return?

 

But, it does have quickness share. If radius gets increased to something more practical, that's going to be good new role opportunity.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Wintermute.5408

[Asum.4960]

3 minutes ago, Rym.1469 said:

I think the general consensus will be that the Elixirs need to be spiced up a bit. I can see them being used to maintain high Blight levels in PvE for modifiers, but apart from that none is that exciting.

Yea, for PvE DPS I only really see the heal being used to regain LF and keeping Blight Stacks high for the Adept Trait modifiers between Shrouds.

[SummonMinion.7306]

10 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I don't really see it that bleak. 

With DM especially, you should be able to maintain perma Prot fairly comfortably with Corrupter's Fervor on both power and condi (or hybrid) variants, since both Pistol and Shroud are stated to have coefficients enabling both, and always have condi on them. 

Then you get stab on Shroud entry, which combined with the mobility and 900 range on everything could make for a fairly nasty ranged/kiting high damage, medium to high mobility class. Additionally, unless you are taking the Damage increase from Blight Traits, you really don't have much reason to stack up much Blight, so with proper management of  Shroud and Elixiers, you'll still be somewhat durable for that amount of range and mobility. 

That combined with a 5 condi cleanse as well as stun break with 20 second Traited Cool Downs and AoE Slow is pretty nice. 

 

That said, overall the Elixiers, both in Theme, efficacy and art are pretty underwhelming. Some of them I don't see a justification to ever use even if they didn't have the Blight on them (the Might and Fury one especially). 

 

Then again, Necro has a history of completely worthless elite spec Utilities (when was the last time you used a Reaper Shout outside of the Elite, esp. Nothing can Save you, or anyone ever seriously used Serpent Siphon).

I honestly enjoy using reaper's heal skill when solo roaming in WvW with the shout trait because the CD reduction overall gives me more value in health and LF regen in an outnumbered fight (which you usually are) than the other healing skills. But yeah, Rise is the only other useful shout aside form the elite. The thing is, these skills don't punish and inherently scale up with the number of target you have.

The elixirs? They punish you, don't scale up with anything, and honestly don't provide enough benefits to offset the punishment. I mean look at that heal skill. This the first time I looked at a heal skill and went "Lol, y'all designed better racial healing skills than this".

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right. That's fair on both counts. I agree with the sentiment you have with Scourge Shroud approach. I'm just naturally drawn to trying to think of ways to break things so for me, blight is EASILY broken as it's intended to break you for massive benefit. Shroud CD is still 10 seconds I think? That's 10 seconds where you get no value from Blight and are short some traits because they are focused on specifics of the espec. 

 

I'm starting to come to the realization that there are some 'Berzerker-like' downfalls in this spec ... time for me to go think about that. 

With the other classes, they had inherent defensive aspects baked into their core classes so they could have viable and effective glass canon hit and run playstyle builds. The Necro? It has none of that (that isn't tied to having a second health bar) and the espec doesn't help. Instead of being "Berzerker-like" or "glass cannon", this spec seems like it was built for a kamikaze playstyle. Well at least now I can scream Japanese obscenities at my foes as I suicide dive with this class in this Eastern-themed expansion.

[Asum.4960]

8 minutes ago, SummonMinion.7306 said:

I honestly enjoy using reaper's heal skill when solo roaming in WvW with the shout trait because the CD reduction overall gives me more value in health and LF regen in an outnumbered fight (which you usually are) than the other healing skills. But yeah, Rise is the only other useful shout aside form the elite. The thing is, these skills don't punish and inherently scale up with the number of target you have.

The elixirs? They punish you, don't scale up with anything, and honestly don't provide enough benefits to offset the punishment. I mean look at that heal skill. This the first time I looked at a heal skill and went "Lol, y'all designed better racial healing skills than this".

 

That would put Reaper, Scourge and Harbinger at roughly the same amount of useful Utilities. The rest of them, like the Might and Fury one, just like Desiccate and Serpent Siphon etc., I'm not defending either - but just like those skills, I also don't expect them to get better.

 

As for the Heal skill, it's clearly not really aimed at PvP and WvW, but rather for PvE where maintaining max stacks of Blight will actually be a goal, not something to be avoided. 

It's a Blight and LF upkeep skill for between Shroud to maintain the Adept Damage modifiers.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Xaylin.1860]

53 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Dont forget that necros have traditionally been a very selfish class. Having group utility is great!

But... that's what I said? 😅 The sharing part is good. However, untraited Elixirs aren't that interesting. 

[LucianDK.8615]

2 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

But... that's what I said? 😅 The sharing part is good. However, untraited Elixirs aren't that interesting. 

ah, then I misread what you said. So I do wonder how much traiting elixirs would cost your dps.  Keeping in mind the scourge situation of offering too much support and damage at once, that have seen the nerf bat so many times.

Edited August 14, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[SeTect.5918]

47 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't want to heal the blight ... it's not causing you damage. It's actually Anet creates as a benefit for DPS. 

 

Yeah .. I'm wondering if a Signets of Suffering trait nerf is incoming. That with Undeath Signet is 6 more seconds of Shroud on the base 20 seconds. But you are right ... I had not realized we yet again lose access to utilities in Shroud. 

Imo blight could at least get reduced. Like the traits give 1% power or condi so blight also just 1%. 50% hp loss is too massive for a light class without barrier and Shroud. Torment runes or whatever cant heal 1hits while u have 11k hp. 

I main weaver and can say that sustain loss of necro Was too much. At least i have a bit barrier lol. 

 

Adding curses...

Just afraid getting too many 1hits tbh like in fractals.

 

I love harbinger playstyle tho and its 100% my fav of the 3 atm. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[LucianDK.8615]

8 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Imo blight could at least get reduced. Like the traits give 1% power or condi so blight also just 1%. 50% hp loss is too massive for a light class without barrier and Shroud. Torment runes or whatever cant heal 1hits while u have 11k hp. 

I main weaver and can say that sustain loss of necro Was too much. At least i have a bit barrier lol. 

 

Adding curses...

Just afraid getting too many 1hits tbh like in fractals.

 

I love harbinger playstyle tho and its 100% my fav of the 3 atm. 

Harbinger definitely have potential. But surviability is indeed a concern if you have no active defenses at all.