OpenAI commanders

[Junkpile.7439]

I have notice that often there isn't commander at all or commander doesn't really understand art of war so i was thinking that anet could ask openAI if they wanna code some commanders. If i don't remeber wrong openAI did play dota 2 against OG and did win a match.

[poocha.3209]

How is that any different from a BOT? Server tags vary depending on their "peak or prime" times. Some servers excel at certain time zones and have multiple tags available at a time. 

Introducing a "BOT" to run as a commander does not help in any way. No AI (that I am aware of) can reproduce or exceed the logical concept of a real person. e.g. Should we take the EWP to save a T1 bay or stay and cap a T2 tower instead?

If you're struggling finding a tag in your server or in your words "doesn't really understand the art of war", then the easiest solution if for you to find another server that caters to your needs and liking.

 

Edit:
I will add that WvW certainly has a lack of training and tutorials which should be addressed in one way or another. Some servers do weekly training and some servers don't give a flying duck. This is one of reasons I stayed away from WvW at first. I only played this gamemode for GoB and eventually learned the ropes so it has been a staple in my GW2 sessions.

Edited August 17, 2021 by poocha.3209
Added info

[vilkanor.3072]

we've got Siegerazor and Siegecrusher already, so no more bots pls.

Also don't be fooled, there are plenty of tags, they are just running hidden...

And the final note is: buy a tag and tag up to lead, if you are capable people will follow.

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

we've got Siegerazor and Siegecrusher already, so no more bots pls.

Deleted by Anet everywhere except EB. Even the guards roflstomping enemies at spawn got deleted, sigh...

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Imagine the bot commander being actually decent and some player tags up, only to get flamed because bot tags down. 

 

 

[vilkanor.3072]

2 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Deleted by Anet everywhere except EB

so it's still there, thus it exist. 😄 So no more pls, we've already enough rallybots (and hackers and bots) to be even considering adding any more

[ASP.8093]

The Starcraft and Dota bots are fed tons of human replay data and do a lot of iterative training in a "bubble" environment, thousands and thousands of games played against each other. Neither of these things are practical with WvW.

 

If you want a tag that doesn't organize comps and doesn't talk… you can just be that tag yourself. Get a sturdy build, buy some Superior or Guild siege, and you're set.

[urd.8306]

5 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

we've got Siegerazor and Siegecrusher already, so no more bots pls.

Also don't be fooled, there are plenty of tags, they are just running hidden...

And the final note is: buy a tag and tag up to lead, if you are capable people will follow.

 

Hidden tags are the worst thing in game. I don't mean that guilds sometimes run hidden, but commanders that run hidden all the time. They are part of the bad state wvw is in.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

it has several playermade reasons that coms run hidden still. map gets instantly queued if u show tag, and the people u'd need for your group do not get in, instead u then have 20 rangers and thieves, gg

 

next, even the casual players don't join quick tags. sometimes people moan for hours that they want a tag, then some1 tags up and gets like 10 people on a 70ish map (full map with Q)

 

like even if theres 15 roamers + a 20ish guild on the map, getting only 10 ppl on an opentag is barely worth it. every 15-20ish cloudgroup can pick that off easily

 

also people don't understand that ideally they should stick to tag, especially if they are not equally experienced (as any tag should be. newbies that tag are rather causing more troubles - game has enough year long players with hundreds of thousands of kills that technically should know yet how correct movement work - which is one of the main things a comm needs to provide.

[vilkanor.3072]

3 hours ago, diomache.9246 said:

 

Hidden tags are the worst thing in game. I don't mean that guilds sometimes run hidden, but commanders that run hidden all the time. They are part of the bad state wvw is in.

it's not that you are wrong, but try to see from the occasional commander's perspective: he may try his best, and yet get yelled at and insulted by people for not attacking this/not defending that/etc, and this is honestly not something that can be considered Anet's fault; it's just toxic people, and there are plenty.

[poocha.3209]

11 hours ago, diomache.9246 said:

 

Hidden tags are the worst thing in game. I don't mean that guilds sometimes run hidden, but commanders that run hidden all the time. They are part of the bad state wvw is in.

I don't completely disagree with you but there is another side to private tags. I tag up privately a lot of the time only because I feel more comfortable and less "pressured" to respond to call outs whether they are legitimate or not. On the other hand, a lot of people follow public tags without joining squad which a lot of times end up as being bag feeders because they aren't supported by the squad boons.

 

Also as vilkanor mentioned, toxicity in some servers is just outrageous. I played on some pretty chill servers and now stuck with a very toxic one. 

[displayname.8315]

I'd rather see AI scouts.  Scouts are more important IMO. 

 

Just like with tags people will chew out scouts if their chat messages aren't the proper syntax or missing some color or number.

[Amarok.2147]

It's tough being a commander, keep in mind there's a lot of studying of classes and keep up to date with what they can or can't do. Tactics that you learn and patterns you detect from experience. Not really something I can see an AI doing at least not yet, this would still require proper builds and staying on tag.

 

Biggest things commanders care about, stay on pin, join discord and mute (talking is rarely ever required unless you want to), and run a proper build. I don't care too much if you're experienced or brand new. I can work with that as long as the other 3 requirements are met. This is if you're trying to run a proper squad. If you're trying to PPT only, then that doesn't require an AI. Throw up a tag and say you're ppting, pugs will join or simply message team chat saying you're pptting. 

 

As for running private tags, this comes from frustration of having random try to join, but not wanting to join discord or have a proper build. The purpose of going private is to A) focus on your own raid going on and to improve your party synergy, B) to not confuse another tag's group if on the same map, and C) is to limit randoms joining you. I personally run open about 90% of the times I tag, but occasionally I'll go private to work on my core group of players.

[Amarok.2147]

11 hours ago, vilkanor.3072 said:

it's not that you are wrong, but try to see from the occasional commander's perspective: he may try his best, and yet get yelled at and insulted by people for not attacking this/not defending that/etc, and this is honestly not something that can be considered Anet's fault; it's just toxic people, and there are plenty.

Tbh I started in GoM and tagged up at like level 30 WvW since no one tagged up. I got a few small objectives, got into a tower and got ring up and got stomped by a zerg. I got flamed to the point that I ended up leaving the server. I eventually moved to CD and enjoyed my time, but felt we hit a plateau and saw that Indo was moving his guild to a new server and then my LT suggested we should do it as well. Talked it over with both and turns out we moved back to GoM however I was around rank 800 or so at the time and having been Commanding since level 30 and working with Indo, Kexx and a few other commanders,  I eventually got the confidence confidence command bigger scale fights and not shy away from failure. It's honestly been a roller-coaster, but if anyone is hesitant to tag up, just do it. Learn from your mistakes, ask other tags for help 😄can't help if you don't ask.

 

Community in GoM were so welcoming when we moved over by the way, it could've been just a bad day for me and being a new player to the game and this style of MMO that it probably felt worse than what it truly was.

[LSD.4673]

19 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

The Starcraft and Dota bots are fed tons of human replay data and do a lot of iterative training in a "bubble" environment, thousands and thousands of games played against each other. Neither of these things are practical with WvW.

 

If you want a tag that doesn't organize comps and doesn't talk… you can just be that tag yourself. Get a sturdy build, buy some Superior or Guild siege, and you're set.

Is that a recent thing? Cos when i stopped playing in 2017, the bots were the same as they'd always been: rubbish. Just like bots in any RTS-type game, they follow the same strategy every game, and don't reapond at all to what the player does. That's why comp would just AFK any dropped player in spawn, rather than feed using a bot...

[T G.7496]

The mindless leading the mindless.

[ASP.8093]

2 hours ago, LSD.4673 said:

Is that a recent thing? Cos when i stopped playing in 2017, the bots were the same as they'd always been: rubbish. Just like bots in any RTS-type game, they follow the same strategy every game, and don't reapond at all to what the player does. That's why comp would just AFK any dropped player in spawn, rather than feed using a bot...

We're talking about OpenAI/DeepMind bots specifically, developed by a group of machine-learning researchers, not the AI available in-game. They would show up on the ladder as regular players, during a limited period under special dispensation from the developers.

 

Look up AlphaStar (for the SC2 bot) or OpenAI Five (for the Dota bot team).

 

Here's a shortened version of the original exhibition games where AlphaStar dumpstered a mid-tier SC2 pro (he gets his revenge at the end):

(This is before a few added restrictions to make the SC2 bot's control more "human-like," so some of the later versions employ more varied strategies with less powerful micro/macro.)

Edited August 18, 2021 by ASP.8093

[LSD.4673]

Just now, ASP.8093 said:

We're talking about OpenAI/DeepMind bots specifically, developed by a group of machine-learning researchers, not the AI available in-game. They would show up on the ladder as regular players, during a limited period under special dispensation from the developers.

 

Look up AlphaStar (for the SC2 bot) or OpenAI Five (for the Dota bot team).

 

Here's a shortened version of the original exhibition games where AlphaStar dumpstered a mid-tier SC2 pro:

(This is before a few added restrictions to make the SC2 bot's control more "human-like," so some of the later versions employ more varied strategies with less powerful micro/macro.)

Ah, i thought DotA had adopted OpenAI. Figured that's whst you meant by them having access to tons of data.

[Bristingr.5034]

On 8/17/2021 at 4:45 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Deleted by Anet everywhere except EB. Even the guards roflstomping enemies at spawn got deleted, sigh...

They still do it at RBL Spawn (Red's Side). Totally forgot about it and led my Zerg there by mistake... whoops.

[alcopaul.2156]

we were facing this almost map queue guild zerg and i sidestepped and i had the proper view and watched a Dominican Day Parade happening..

Edited August 18, 2021 by alcopaul.2156

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

On 8/17/2021 at 10:02 PM, displayname.8315 said:

I'd rather see AI scouts.  Scouts are more important IMO. 

 

Just like with tags people will chew out scouts if their chat messages aren't the proper syntax or missing some color or number.

ai scouts = sentries and  watchtowers 😏

[displayname.8315]

59 minutes ago, Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:

ai scouts = sentries and  watchtowers 😏

If the sentries and watchtowers worked across maps that would be like a scout.

[Some Call Me Tim.2319]

2 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

If the sentries and watchtowers worked across maps that would be like a scout.

 

So “we” really want the game to play FOR us?   lol we have people and Team chat and yes even scouts.  But the way people play these days very few people seem to know how to call out real events.  That makes it hard to respond to at times.   AI is just that .. artificial.  Even dumber than actual people even if they’re inexperienced.  

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The problem is hidden tags. In all my years of commanding I've never run a hidden tag, if I didn't want players to join I'd just lock the squad, so players can still see where where my party is and follow around.

 

IMO any squad with over ten players (raid squad), shouldn't be able to hide the tag. If you want to run 50man and take up 2/3rds of the map queue all by yourself, then show your tag.

 

Its unfair to be Q'd out and not even know where the action is half the time. Especially if its a tag that is only "looking for fights" while the enemy is PPT'ing all your objectives and you're getting camped by roamers and stuff like that while a whole zerg of players is doing ZvZ for an hour near QL or something and the only indication of activity besides your defending PUGs getting crushed is crossed swords way off on the map somewhere.

 

This game made is supposed to be a team effort, not exclusive to a handful of players who are in the same guild/join the same voicechat/run the same classes and builds/play the same way/etc.

 

Maybe if queues didn't exist, it'd be different. But they do, and it sucks.

 

A recent trend is for hidden tags to flood into the map to take something and complaining that PUGs and roamers are using up their queue slots, and yelling at everyone to get off the map so they can get their entire fat hidden squad in to go die to another zerg in five seconds or something.

 

I've even seen hidden tags complain about EWPs because half their players port to it and they no longer have control of the map queue after a bunch of PUGs port in to get some occasional large-scale action too.

 

Its getting just plain rediculous these days, honestly.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[displayname.8315]

6 hours ago, Some Call Me Tim.2319 said:

we have people and Team chat and yes even scouts.

Team chat was added years into the game, after map hopping became the norm.  It seems to have been designed to have all 4 maps "active" and it used to be that way.  Things like guilds picking maps on their server website, before discord was a thing.

 

It's just boring to play on a slow or totally dead map.  For me at least.

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by displayname.8315